England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

by king_carlos Sat 17 Feb 2024, 3:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:23 am

Ball doing nothing much for Bumrah and Siraj. Will we see Kuldeep on early like in the first innings?

by VTR Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:30 am

KP_fan wrote:Eng won a test , fought hard in second, but around exactly the mid point of the series it appears
Wheels have come off Eng's carriage

Yep, seems to happen quite often to the away side on these sort of tours. Only glimmer of hope for England would be to win the toss next time and see if they can create some sort of pressure by batting first. One problem they have is that Anderson has now been flogged into the dirt so very doubtful to be able to play.

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:34 am

It was nt very Duckett like to do 4 runs in 15 balls, and for Eng to ge going at 2.5RPO in 6 opening overs
Pressure of not scoring got them to push for an non existent run?
Unfortunate.....I love to watch Duckett against spin

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:44 am

It looked more hitting in the stumps then it turned out to be that Crawley review.

Eng playing for a draw not working for them

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:49 am

Uncharacteristic slow start for England and it's resulted in the run out of Duckett ... Apart from a couple of sessions , just about everything has gone wrong for England in this match. Not that it's all down to "unforced errors " : India have played really well and put the pressure on them with bat and ball. Considering they were 33/3 on day one and with two first gamers , they deserve massive praise. They've certainly worn England down in a way they couldn't in the earlier games : whether this means the rest of the series will be a procession or not we will discover in time. But the back room staff will be busy - physios and motivational speakers Wink

Ah now Crawley's gone ... The most borderline lbw you can imagine , as we see on Hawkeye ! England really haven't had the best of luck with drs in this match - or indeed series. Never mind bad calls of their own : getting the on field call - or not - has been vital a few times ; and they've tended to be on the wrong side of it rather regularly. That one was quite extreme.

Not to take anything away from India , I hasten to add. They've thoroughly deserved their overwhelming position ; but it does seem that when you're on top you tend to get the breaks as well...

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 8:56 am

Will we see a finish tonight , I wonder ? Two of the more successful bats on this tour gone already and basically nothing to play for except pride : could be a total fold up - which is always a dispiriting way to lose a Test Match. After two very good contests I'm disappointed but just have to suck it up and hope the lads can get their act together in a few days time...

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:02 am

Sir Alaistair Cook in studio has become more and more vocal since lunch on how he would have captained and what he would have said to players.
"Test of character , go out and bat , but not bazballing"

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:03 am

Just looking back at that Duckett run out : really was excellent work by the keeper to gather that and break the stumps . He had some tough balls to take in the first innings from the spinners , and couldn't pick them all ; but I reckon he's done a pretty good job first up. Indeed most of the Indian side have earned their match fees in this one...Suppose Patidar won't remember this one too fondly but the rest of them have all played their part very well...

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:06 am

Bumrah is getting it to reverse, that was outside the line of off though

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:09 am

alfie wrote:Just looking back at that Duckett run out : really was excellent work by the keeper to gather that and break the stumps . He had some tough balls to take in the first innings from the spinners , and couldn't pick them all ; but I reckon he's done a pretty good job first up. Indeed most of the Indian side have earned their match fees in this one...Suppose Patidar won't remember this one too fondly but the rest of them have all played their part very well...

Yes jurel has had a good debut, looked organized and technically correct , like a proper full batsman which is the reference bar that Dhoni and Pant have set.
And like the English batsmen he too did not read kuldeep ...but did good work with a stumping and now the R.O

Pope goes , 7 more to get as Eng are 3 down and going at 2RPO

by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:11 am

Ravichandran Ashwin's taken the field after tea. England having lost Oliver Pope soon after Tea to Jadeja, will find their task even more difficult now.

by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:17 am

Root looking a bit calmer out there. Can the missing commonsense in his batting return in this innings?

by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:19 am

Jadeja gets another! Bairstow this time. He's having a tough time in the series in general. Had Brook been available, perhaps Bairstow might have been benched by now... Or perhaps not got a chance at all as he was not earning his place with the gloves since his return...

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:20 am

28-4 chasing half a thousand runs looks like "The Indian Home Domination"
Reviewed Stokes

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:22 am

That looked perfectly inside the line of off stumps , in fact on middle, DRS thought otherwise

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:26 am

Oh lord ...bad to worse. Pope gives Rohit catching practice. And then Bairstow follows ...can't take a trick with the lbws , Jonny : that would have been another umpires call but he didn't bother to review anyway after that first innings . 29/4 and this is not fun to watch ...

Unless you're an India fan

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:32 am

India finally making their dominance in this series count. Some sloppy batting kept the margin somewhat respectable in the second, but here they've properly cashed in. Jaiswal having a series like G Smith v England in 2003, and Sarfaraz continuing a promising opening to his test career.

Could be an important innings for Root and Stokes to find form ahead of the fourth test.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:37 am

At least we won't have to sweat on this one much longer. Over tonight I think...you get the feeling England are broken after the events of the last two days. Going to take a huge effort to come back next week ...

...as it will for us supporters Wink

. I'm keeping the faith though ; albeit with more trepidation than than before this one.

Think I will avoid BBC HYS for a while as I find some of the clowns on there too much at the best of times...

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:42 am

alfie wrote:KP_fan might be ready to let Duty's fixture list stuff stand but I won't give him a free pass on it

Root's overall record as skipper isn't rubbish. Neither great nor awful ...and frankly since the Flower/Strauss/Cook days England had generally been consistently decent but a little short of top drawer : practically unbeatable at home , not much use away (with the odd and strangely variable exceptions of Sri Lanka and SA ). But in 2021 it was quite obvious the Root regime was out of puff.

Covid probably didn't help. And one or two players who'd been introduced to try and improve the side had just not been able to achieve consistent success. But the main problem was that confidence had been sucked out of the team as a group - the old faithfuls even looking jaded , and some others seeming no longer sure they wanted to be part of it any more. McCullum and Stokes changed that overnight.

No magic new players . Just reintroduced a bit of enjoyment and a lot of belief. And bingo : three-nil over NZ who just a year ago had won the WTC ; levelled the postponed India series with a remarkable chase ; and then come back from a nasty shock loss to beat SA 2-1. And then a 3-0 win in Pakistan which nobody had ever done before... Is anyone seriously suggesting the previous outfit could have done this ?

As Olly says , still far from perfect. And I think a bit of overconfidence and carelessness crept in then which caused them to miss a series win in NZ - and maybe contributed to the early losses in the Ashes series. Needs more work , sure. But unlike the supine manner in which they'd been accepting defeat in the previous year or so , the team has only once been really hammered (by SA) - other losses all coming after proper battles and still in some doubt until nearly the end.

It is a very big improvement. They have a challenge ahead to maintain that improvement - not least next week as they strive to come back from what looks like being their worst defeat since that SA game ; but their record suggests we can at least have some hopes they might have another bounce back in them...

Yeah...why not? The three nil over NZ wasn't against the side that had won the WTC. It was against the post WTC side, which has won two out of nine test series, including failing to beat Bangladesh home and away. Root's England beat South Africa comfortably in 2017, so why would it have been unattainable in 2022? England under Root won six consecutive tests in the subcontinent (five in Sri Lanka, one in India), so why would 3-0ing Pakistan be out of reach? This was a poor Pakistan side that finished third from bottom in the WTC, and failed to win any of their 8 home tests against non subcontinental opposition in this cycle.

'A very big improvement'? So how come England managed the exact same result in the Ashes in 2023 as they did in 2019 - which would have actually been a series loss in 2023 if Lyon hadn't got injured - if there's been a very big improvement? How come England are, currently, doing worse (if we consider margins, the raw number is the same) in India in 2024 than they did in 2021, if there's been a very big improvement? And I'd add this is a weaker India side than three years ago, with the absences of Kohli/Pant/Rahul/Shami/Jadeja missing for a test/Ashwin missing for most of this.

by msp83 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:42 am

Bumrah is bowling well here for sure and he isn't best pleased by Stokes pulling out though the England skipper had a good reason to do so. But Rohit should now give his led pacer a rest, and let the spinners get on with it. If Bumrah is to play the next test, then he shouldn't be made to stretch unnecessarily.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:47 am

Not going to bother arguing with you , Duty , regarding the Stokes/McCullum effect. Can see mind is made up so will just have to agree to disagree.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 9:56 am

Vaughan is unloading on "Bazball" , I see. "ok for the first Test but not these two" : trouble is I don't think it is "Bazball" that has cost them . Firstly as I keep having to point out , Bazball isn't about slogging everything ; secondly if you lose the toss and concede 400 you are up against it whatever you do ; and thirdly apart from one or two indiscretions (looking at you , Joe) it hasn't been daft shots that has cost them : just been outplayed by a very good Indian team. Plus they've got a lot wrong in this game in terms of missed chances , missed referrals , and even a daft run out to start the collapse this evening...

Vaughan is the king of 20/20 hindsight.

by James100 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:01 am

alfie wrote:Vaughan is unloading on "Bazball" , I see. "ok for the first Test but not these two" : trouble is I don't think it is "Bazball" that has cost them . Firstly as I keep having to point out , Bazball isn't about slogging everything ; secondly if you lose the toss and concede 400 you are up against it whatever you do ; and thirdly apart from one or two indiscretions (looking at you , Joe) it hasn't been daft shots that has cost them : just been outplayed by a very good Indian team. Plus they've got a lot wrong in this game in terms of missed chances , missed referrals , and even a daft run out to start the collapse this evening...

Vaughan is the king of 20/20 hindsight.

Perfect hindsight except when it comes to remembering whether he said anything racist as Yorkshire captain.

by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:06 am

Foakes and Stokes 400 run partnership coming up?

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:09 am

Root gone now... Was coming. Batting looking practically impossible now after the run fest earlier today... Game position makes a big difference - as does quality of spinners.

Another umpires call , by the way. That's all three lbws in this innings. Just the way it goes ; but England might hope to get one or two their way next week , by the law of averages.

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:10 am

I wanted Eng to play judiciously, with discretion but they just went in a hole

They needed to rotate strike, use feet play some down thr ground strokes.
It's hard if not impossible to come out of a hole of 7 off 40 balls
If not this over then the next or the one after that , one will get you.
Now Stokes goes sweeping and reviews

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:13 am

And Stokes lbw now

Think this one is probably plumb for a change .. Yes. Kuldeep having a good match thumbsup

50/6. Uglier than I'd hoped for ; but might as well get all the bad stuff done at once...

Day off tomorrow.

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:16 am

alfie wrote:Not going to bother arguing with you , Duty , regarding the Stokes/McCullum effect. Can see mind is made up so will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair, but am genuinely curious as to how you (or anyone for that matter) square alleged improvement under Stokes/McCullum with a static return or slight regression in the last Ashes series, and regression in this visit to India.

by eirebilly_01 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:17 am

Starting to wonder if England will even get to 100 here... This is a fierce thrashing.

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:20 am

KP_fan wrote:I wanted Eng to play judiciously, with discretion but they just went in a hole

They needed to rotate strike, use feet play some down thr ground strokes.
It's hard if not impossible to come out of a hole of 7 off 40 balls
If not this over then the next or the one after that , one will get you.
Now Stokes goes sweeping and reviews

Mentality was very confused in this one. They seemed to accept even this total was out of reach and sort of batted for a draw. As you say, they got stuck and are now 50/6. They were never batting 120 or so overs on this, so may as well have played a few shots. Doomed either way.

Good chance for India to finish it off in the next test, which is back to back and starts on Friday. India shouldn't rest Bumrah for that one, just get the series won.

Oof, 50/7. Heading for one of England's biggest ever defeats. England's biggest defeat by runs is 562. Second biggest is 425, v West Indies in Manchester in 1976. Doesn't look like England will be getting that close.

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:23 am

Relax if anyone is worried about this turning out to be the largest test margin of win/defeat

Won't happen....it's already outside top 4 and even a 490 run defeat wll get it outside top 6

by James100 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:23 am

Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:Not going to bother arguing with you , Duty , regarding the Stokes/McCullum effect. Can see mind is made up so will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair, but am genuinely curious as to how you (or anyone for that matter) square alleged improvement under Stokes/McCullum with a static return or slight regression in the last Ashes series, and regression in this visit to India.

I'll have a go

Looking beyond the actual results, the 2019 series had two convincing Australia wins (Tests 1&4), two which could have gone either way depending on a few things being different (2&3), and one convincing England win(T5, after the Ashes had already been retained)

2023 had 4 matches that could have gone either way depending on a few things being different (all of the games with results: 2-2 could easily have been 3-1 or 4-0 either way), and one game which England dominated except for rain.

I don't think it's fair to say that England didn't have a better Ashes in 2023 than 2019.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:27 am

Well I guess partly because , as for the Ashes : four very close games , two each , plus a dominant game with the result lost to the weather ...v two heavy defeats , one good win and one get out of jail miracle , plus a weather influenced draw they were edging : pretty similar , I agree. But hardly a regression , surely ?
And as for this we are only three games in. This game has ended up a shocker ; but the first two were proper contests . Let's see what happens from here , eh ?

But apart from that I think you're cheating a bit by dissing all those series wins on the grounds of poor opposition. You can only beat what's in front of you : but they did that rather impressively.

Absolutely agree they have more to prove against the top sides. But that doesn't negate the fact that they're a better team now than they were three years ago. I think most people will agree with that , even if you don't.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:34 am

Sorry James , didn't see you'd already said it for me Wink

Meanwhile , Rehan has gone but at least it wasn't lbw ...plenty of elevation but not the distance.

All out 80 ? Pitch has certainly " gone" now ; so you'd think England were doomed to lose this anyway unless they got a hundred plus lead on first innings. Doesn't make this any less humiliating, of course.

India wasting a review this time so not just England get silly with them Wink

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:43 am

Hartley continues to show he can actually bat a bit...useful attribute for a potential single spinner spot when England are at home ? Still got a bit of work to do getting more consistency with his bowling ; but I think he might have a future. Especially if Leach keeps getting injury problems.

Foakes not throwing it away either , I'm pleased to see. The pressure is off these two , of course as the situation is long become totally hopeless ; but would be nice to at least push the margin under 450 Wink

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:44 am

There wasn't any need to remove Jadeja other than to appreciate Ashwin making the effort and commitment to return.
Time to bring Bumrah to clean up the tail

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:47 am

Robinson and Atkinson as the pace duo for the next test? Anderson looked fairly exhausted during the second innings, and it's a short turnaround to the fourth test, while Wood is rarely trusted to play back to back games.

It should be a similar type of pitch. England's spin bowling limitations were brutally exposed in this test. Hartley 2/187 and Rehan 3/193. I like Rehan, but he's still very raw. Root also got through an insane 43 overs. More overs than runs from Root. Might roll the dice and put Bashir in for the next? Not that I can see it makes much difference, to be honest.

Big problems over the middle order as well. Pope reverting to type, seemingly, Root and Bairstow struggling, but not much scope for changes.

by VTR Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:55 am

Well those spin bowling stats say it all, and is why I don't get angry, upset or even really bothered by any of these defeats. England's only semi proven spinner is out injured, so this is really experience for the next potential spinner, though hard to say if any of the three will make it in the long term. But really, the resources are so limited, they have actually done relatively well to compete at any point

by GSC Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:56 am

The root silverwood era is improving in front of our eyes.

I think England at some point have to decide if they want to be the great entertainers or compromise to become better winners. They want to have a one size fits all approach, and the great teams are adaptable. but I wouldn't underplay bazball when it doesn't work. It has shown it disrupts and unsettled the opposition and that has in the past made up a talent gap.

Which is probably the big issue still. They've rather taken a see what sticks approach to the spin department behind Leach (rather than the county all stars

), and even then Leach managed a single innings on this tour. None of the bats have really fired consistently on this tour. All comes down to players not approach in the end

by VTR Sun 18 Feb 2024, 10:57 am

Also to add for this match, for all the talk of "we'll chase them down", which was obvious nonsense, the only real things to be gained were to see if the middle order could find any form. Clearly that hasn't worked out so I think it's time to drop Bairstow for Lawrence. Do I think Lawrence will smash a game changing century? No. But he can't do any worse so give him a chance

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:01 am

Jadeja is back instead and plucks out Foakes gone to a thick edge caught in a very Foakes like clean manner by Jurel who has grown in confidence and looked a part.

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:02 am

Best partnership of the innings ends with Foakes smartly caught by his opposite number...Jadeja 4/11 ! Had a great match but will have to yield PoTM to Jaiswal...82/8 and the extra half hour will endure we don't gave to come back tomorrow...

Wood's going to have a nice old fashioned tail ender slog

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:05 am

How many balls before Anderson attempts a reverse sweep

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:11 am

How is Joel Wilson still a test umpire?

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:12 am

Rushing to the close...plenty of time left for Jimmy to try and top score...or Wood , more likely as he starts to monster Jadeja and mess with his figures a bit

All done now : pending review...ha ...pitched outside leg so The Wood Blitz continues

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:14 am

Comms saying both umpires have had a great match ... Not sure I'd agree in the case of Joel W !

by alfie Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:18 am

Deserved five for Jadeja clap

Well done India . Too good here.

England can have a day to rest and reset. I can rest my typing finger...

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:19 am

Wood top scored, always a concern! India's biggest win by runs apparently, England's second biggest loss by runs.

India finally make the gulf between the two sides count. They've been comfortably ahead after every first innings showing this test, which generally shows the way the wind is blowing. This type of result was always likely.

Not much time to turn it around for England, alas. England's chance was in the second test when India were missing Jadeja and basically playing ten men with that Umesh fellow.

by Duty281 Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:21 am

James100 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
alfie wrote:Not going to bother arguing with you , Duty , regarding the Stokes/McCullum effect. Can see mind is made up so will just have to agree to disagree.

Fair, but am genuinely curious as to how you (or anyone for that matter) square alleged improvement under Stokes/McCullum with a static return or slight regression in the last Ashes series, and regression in this visit to India.

I'll have a go

Looking beyond the actual results, the 2019 series had two convincing Australia wins (Tests 1&4), two which could have gone either way depending on a few things being different (2&3), and one convincing England win(T5, after the Ashes had already been retained)

2023 had 4 matches that could have gone either way depending on a few things being different (all of the games with results: 2-2 could easily have been 3-1 or 4-0 either way), and one game which England dominated except for rain.

I don't think it's fair to say that England didn't have a better Ashes in 2023 than 2019.

My main sticking point about the Ashes in 2023 is that England would have almost certainly lost the series if Lyon hadn't got injured. That got England out of jail and prevented them from losing their first series at home to Aus in 2001. The third test in 2023, that England narrowly won, is where Lyon would have probably tipped the balance, as he did in the first test, and made it 3-0.

The 2019 series had one convincing Australia win, the fourth test. The first test, though the margin was 251 runs, was actually a lot closer than the end margin suggests, with Australia something like 120/8 in the first innings, and England getting a decent lead. England would have won the second test, most likely, had it not been for rain.

I'd also say in the 2023 series that the second test was a fairly convincing Australian win. Stokes made the margin prettier for England, but Australia controlled things.

Would add that as well as Australia arguably being weaker in 2023 than 2019, England were arguably stronger on paper, in terms of personnel, in 2023 than 2019 (for instance, Ben Duckett instead of Jason Roy; Harry Brook instead of Joe Denly), so Root worked with inferior resources to Stokes but still managed the same result.

I think an argument that England had a better Ashes in 2023 than 2019 is a tough one to make.

by KP_fan Sun 18 Feb 2024, 11:26 am

Was the type of inning that Wood played vs SA in world cup from a similar situation of all over.
Ind's biggest win ever in their 577 tests....and this is the type of imposing win they get when they get selection & performance to optimal level.
Eng only need 1 more win to go back with a credible tour.....and so they need to clear the cobwebs.

Ind will bring KL for Patidar who I guess will be "released" to play Ranji.
They will be temped to rest Bumrah....but I'd say play him to close the series & let him off in the last test.

Eng need to designate IMO Duckett, Crawley and Pope & off course Wood to hack their way Bazballing and remaining to play normal cricket.
And if Root's gonna bowl so many overs then swap his batting slot with Bairstow....and play Robinson & Atkinson for Anderson and one of Rehan or Hartley

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