Wales U20 management a disgrace

First topic message reminder :

The baby all blacks have just done their Song and dance bit. Plenty of choreography and Tongue wiggling, very cute.

Hobo wrote:watching the Welsh summary at the end of the game.

I dont talk Welsh but I would imagine that they are saying that the Baby Blacks were lucky to win?

No they did not.

Anyway Maestig...all good- appreciate and applaud your enthusiasm for the game... Good stuff.

We do get a bit over protective of our boys doing their haka thing as we've all been through it and know its significance in our game.

Taylorman wrote:Anyway Maestig...all good- appreciate and applaud your enthusiasm for the game... Good stuff.

We do get a bit over protective of our boys doing their haka thing as we've all been through it and know its significance in our game.

Not that you need it but do you believe it gives you some sort of advantage even if it only psyched your players up.

Hakas before rugby are predominantly a school thing in NZ Rugby. You dont see it as frequently in club, ITM or Sxv. Its then seen again in our international teams.

For most first xv's its important to have a good haka as it reflects the preparedness and togetherness of the team and that display immediately before a match in NZ is usually responded to by the other team in an equal fashion. Often you'll see 4 or 5 responses from either side, each taking turn. Winning the 'haka' is almost like winning the match, or at least it feels that way, despite the result.

Its to tell the opposition team and crowd that 'we're ready, we're prepared, we've done the work, in a bring it on sense. You will never see a rugby haka done poorly, never see half hearted involvement or smiley embarrassed faces. It is always done with intensity, precision and controlled power. Poor haka is poor discipline and will reflect a poor team.

So is there a belief that it gives you an advantage.

Absolutely, without reservation.

There is no shame in losing to this team. (perhaps not by the scale they have) The baby blacks have laid down a marker here and I think the rest of us might as well go home, their name is on the trophy for the 'nth' year in a row.

Taylorman that was very informative thank you.

Yeah the 'chills' bit I mentioned earlier is just from having done them on many occasions.

We know how hard the boys have worked and can see it in the haka and almost feel for the other team who havnt begun a match with the same emotion swirling around in their heads.

You'll see most kiwis drop everything and watch in silence when hakas are on. Its just when someone pops up and makes these dance and song comments that we just laugh.

Hard to find a comparison but perhaps calling a regimental parade in front of honouraries before going to Iraq and calling them marching girls with lollipops on their shoulders might be similar- its not insulting- its just a strange thing to say. We respect it cos we know it, and its importance, and are just amused by the reaction it gets.

When did they become so serious,the NZ teams of the 60's and 70's were nowhere near as committed as you make it is normal.It really was just a bit of jumping around for them.

Cumbrian wrote:There is no shame in losing to this team. (perhaps not by the scale they have) The baby blacks have laid down a marker here and I think the rest of us might as well go home, their name is on the trophy for the 'nth' year in a row.

I don;t agree, only a very good and brave team will beat New Zealand but any team capable of showing self respect and pride can compete, we didnt even do that today.

I can't tell you how to feel about your own team's efforts, but I don't think they will be the only team to be hammered by this lot.

shoulder..
Yeah I know i look at those and reel a bit.

The 60's All Black hakas werent typical of the way hakas should be performed and they do have that 'get it over and done with' look to them.

The 80's under Buck Shelford, Taine Randall etc brought them more into line, put a bit more 'mana' (pride so to speak) back into them.

Outwardly they may look 'serious' and exclusive or negative- ie dont muck with us but theyre not intended that way. They're intended to be more inclusive of everyone around them. This is who we are, proud , standing tall, together as one. In NZ its fitting to respond in the same manner, both sides showing a mark of respect.

This is probably why we have this anomoly around the world about how to react to it. We have no real answers as the normal way is with a responding haka so thats always a funny one and the IRB made their stupid be silent rule so i dont know...

I have to ask what the academies are doing? Players are picked up at U16 age and put through a programme of training and coaching overseen by the WRU and their development officers for up to 4 years by the time they get to U20 level. Why are we still unable to at least give the baby black a game? What are the coaches doing with these academies. Do they not allow them to do weight training before they're 21 or something? I can understand losing by 30 or 40 points to the baby blacks, or losing by 95 points if you're a nation like Kazakhstan who I assume do not have much rugby tradition or academies, but Wales should at least be able to compete a bit with the numbers playing the game and the level of imvestment made. I bet the WRU spends more on their academies/age grade rugby than the New Zealand rugby union do too, and what is there to show for it?

I know this is a really good baby blacks team but they always are. Seriously, is there any point in the academies if that is the best they can produce? Would the money be better spent elsewhere because we were just as competitive, if not more so, before the academies!

I have got to say, what an absoloute shocker!

All credit has got to go with the Baby All Blacks, but why oh why does the Welsh management team pick a side that in reality is like playing the Scarlets against the Ospreys last Christmas

But in all reality, what sort of message does this send out to the young players? when you play against a team that you have not much chance of beating, put the weakest team out that you can!

How are players meant to improve if they don't play against the best in the world at their age group? Yes there is a "potential" that injury could occur but at least the players would benefit from the experience.

Now Wales have got 100 points against - the worst in the championship.

This mentality seems to follow through to the grown ups - just look at the lack of respect Wales give the likes of Italy and Fiji etc

Please Wales management grow a pair!

Anyway,
not to get off the subject too much. Well done to the boys... good to see the game being played the way we love to play it.

Lets hope Wales recover from this and topple Italy, who probably fancy themselves after the relative scores.

I assume you mean they used the back up players out of the squad for this match? My understanding of the rules is that teams have to give every member of their squad a start in at least one game, so the Welsh management opted to make sure they had the best team available for games they have the most chance of winning.

Yes

But what sort of mental state must the players be in - they start out knowing they are going to get stuffed - at least if they had their best players in they would have a "slim" chance.

Let the players come on for the last 5 if they are playing "stats" and the rules, don't make the seconds be punch bags.

Huw, you might be overreacting slightly - the 'seconds' as you call them have to [bold]start[/bold] the game, under the rules as I understand them, not just play the play 5

Every player in the squad should be able to compete with his opposite number and they probably could against any side apart from the Baby Blacks who are second to none.
Mental state .. they should learn by it and make sure it does not happen again if they cant do that then they have no right to wear the red jersey.

The gap between our first team and second team shouldnt be this big and most of these boys are professional players and have a regional squad.
I also dont blame the management at all, Richard Webster was the age these guys are now when he was playing in a World Cup for Wales! and he was playing the REAL All Blacks and Australian teams at that age... I dont ever recall him bottling it and hiding like these Welsh players did today, and they were only against the "Baby" Blacks...
You cant coach pride, determination and courage you either have it or you dont and few of the Welsh boys out there today showed any willingness to put themselves and their bodies on the line for their country. They were a disgrace.

Did the Baby Blacks just play to good.

Or did the welsh team not bother to even play?

Did not see the game but from reports on here, errrrr it was a bit one sided.

The 'Baby' Blacks have never lost a game at the IRB JWC
They are a class above

Welsh defence was so poor, they looked scared. All prematch talk was that the Welsh fancied their chances and had done their homework. I thought they looked decent against Argentina. Have to say I didn't pay close attention to the squad, were there many changes between the games?

Far to soon to be talking about the Baby Blacks winning another RWC,last year it was 43-10 versus Wales. But they are certainly laying down markers.Incidentally I think it was the 1972-3 All Black side abandoned the Haka and bought it back at the othere sides requests.Not sure of the exact dates but certainly around that time they dropped it for awhile.Interesting that the Baby Blacks have yet to drop a game at any RWC ,like there Womans sides.

How many of this Welsh team were involved in the Argentina game? Sorry, I'm not familiar with Welsh under 20 rugby. I thought they looked decent in first outing, but they just didn't seem to know how to, or want to tackle. The breakdown looked at once they got there, but the number of missed tackles must have been in triple figures.

Not doing the BBs any favours this kind of thing. England looked good against Scotland and I think that these romps don't do the opposition or competition justice.

I appreciate rules around giving every team member a start, but surely the good of the over all tournament has to take precedence?

GG, your "England looked good against Scotland" indicates that you caught the last 5 mins after the Wales vs NZ game, you great bluffer you!!

Nothing short of food poisoning or Wayne Barnes could stop the Baby Blacks.

Everyone knows the only team that stands a chance against them is the one they left back in New Zealand. I'm sure Paddy Power are already paying out on next years competition let alone this one.

I couldn't agree more with the OP. A tournament is a process, not an event. The second string have now been given a hiding and the first string boys who came on have also suffered. Psychologically it is beyond belief.

I remember the England side of a few years ago did well (Turner-Hall, Cole, etc), Grand Slam in the 6 nations, beat australia in the pools, smashed the boks in the semi final. And then lost something like 33-3 in the final.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Welsh defence was so poor, they looked scared. All prematch talk was that the Welsh fancied their chances and had done their homework. I thought they looked decent against Argentina. Have to say I didn't pay close attention to the squad, were there many changes between the games?

Do you just make stuff up? nobody 'fancied their chances' and they made nine changes from the team that beat Argentina, but yes they did look scared.

It looked to me the Wales team were not committed from the start, the first try the Wales backs seemed to be ambling across the park making very little effort this went on throughout the game until the last 10 mins. The two wings, the flyhalf and fullback were a joke in defence, it reminded me of the Scarlets defending but worse. I hope the team that played Argentina was stronger that todays team but the future looks bleak if todays performance is a measure of rugby in Wales.

Looking at the NZ players they appear bigger, faster, stronger, they offload better, support better and they see the gaps in the defence but other than that we have nicer shirts and their throwing in to the line is almost as bad as Wales.

should have played morgan- yes he would have been targeted but at least he would pose a threat going forward, i mean if we were going down the route they can score 90 points we score 91 points then you need morgan on the pitch

from what i have read the welsh team seemed to lack pride and commitment, i think they should have to all stand in the mirror and do the scene from cool runnings
" i see pride, i see power, i see a bad ass mudda who gonna take no rudey poo of nobody"

COOL RUNNINGS solves all

Rabbits in the headlights. If that won't give them a lesson to take home then nothing will.

I wonder what the pep talk and mentality was going into that game. Clearly from the selection Webster wasn't pondering a win, is it possible that the players were told to think similar? That would be the only forgiveable...nope never mind



Unfortunately now they'll be traumatised for life

To be fair the All Black juniors are just that good, they excelled everywhere around the pitch, bar their hookers throwing in. This was not a Welsh U 20s team that you would imagine would loose by nearly a century.

But it was men against boys out there, the ABs were bigger, better and showed it with a swagger natural of all great All Black sides, Junior or Senior.

Welsh Schools rugby needs a big kick up the back side and hopefully this will be it.

I dont see any other side competing on a level playing field with this New Zealand team.

The reason the All blacks are always so good at senior level was evident here they are fantastic at coaching and teaching young guys to play superb rugby.

Well done New Zealand.

You know what.

That All Black junior side were sublime. They were that much better all round than Wales. The score was justified.

I read your posts and you can point fingers where you want, but you would do a lot more good giving some hard earned cash too your local school and helping encourage inter school rugby in Wales to be as good as it is in New Zealand because that is where the difference is.

Welsh inter school rugby is one of the worst in the world and that is the difference between us and the rest. England are miles ahead, mainly with their expensive public schools but the daily mail cup is a massive competition fought hard for by young players of under 15 and under 18.

Our best rugby schools wouldn't even compete with the kiwis third tier schools. In fact many comprehensives in Wales dont even play competitive sport, most dont have sixth forms any more and the colleges for further education have little or no interest in organising sports teams or leagues.

Universities are full of foreigners, our kids also usually go abroad to England for degrees.

The Regional academies are all we have and they don't cater for enough players, only the select few. It has to be schools and competitive leagues at all age groups at school too.

It is down to highly competitive inter school rugby and it is our job as parents, grandparents and future parents to help improve it not to tap at key boards blaming coaches and managers, if you want to see better rugby, get down the school and see what you can do to help, or ask your councillor.

Rugby at school in Wales in the sixties was of a much higher level than it is now. We lost that competition in schools rugby in the seventies, probably when we were all fighting the government for the right to work and in that we lost our world standing in the game.

If we really still have a national passion for the game then we should express it and encourage it.

Rugby union gives so much more than just the game itself, it is a culture, a club, an expression and a passion, those of us who have played it, supported it and loved it have gained so much from it, we also need to make sure we give a bit back.

maesteg...

These boys play to at least the same standard as last years or the years before u20 side. Thats just the level of our youth rugby at the moment and with the predecessors paving the way they'll keep turning out teams of this standard.

Its our main game and we know how important it is to win overseas so nothing is spared in terms of preparation. Some of these guys are playing ITM and sxv already (Anscombe and Sopoaga) so theyve a fair bit of rugby behind them already.

maestegmafia,
Are you perhaps by extension indicating where Wales need to improve at the grass roots in order to improve at the higher levels? I hadn't realised the schools in Wales had started to divorce them selves from sport, and Rugby in particular. And in a Rugby country, to boot.

I am very biased, of course, but I believe sport in schools is vitally important. And, even more biased, I agree with you, mate, that Rugby provides more than mere sport. Its worth a few extra £££ to keep school sports going.

Ja.

Richard Webster: "We are lucky that due to the fierce competition within the camp for every position, this side is every bit as strong as the starting line-up selected against Argentina."

"Every player selected for tomorrow's [Tuesday's] game fully deserves his chance, while those on the bench will also be desperate to show what they can do against the world champions if they get the opportunity."

Firstly I doubt if you picked the best 15 whether they would have done much better.

If what some posters are saying is true about school rugby being non existent in Wales then that is a serious problem.

You can't expect to have kids that have not played competitive rugby from a later age to compete against the BB, they have a ten year advantage on you.

So whether you lose by 60 or 100 points, I doubt the players will learn anything in those losses.

Just watched the game on My Sky without knowing the result, after 30 minutes I stopped the game and just looked up the final result on the IRB site!

I know Wales feel proud of their rugby footage on TV but it's all about the National and Regional teams ..... NOT good enough.

On the Rugby Channel here in NZ we get LIVE SCHOOL's RUGBY every Saturday during the season. Schools rugby does not exsist in Wales and it's supposed to be out National sport. ALL NZ Cup games, ALL S15 games and above. As well as the 7's and also Grassroots programmes.

The schoolboy quality of rugby is usually of a high standard, but even the lower standard teams would send Britsh schoolboys to bed with a bloody nose.

Kids need to be nutured from the age of 10 -11 and nursed into the game. It happens in the smallest school in the middle of nowhere in NZ, the UK are light years away.

I know a lot of you are mentioning the school level of rugby however if you look at the WRU structure and pyramid system you would know Schools rugby was stopped for a reason. Clubs try and run junior teams and this was hindered by schools rugby. Very often we would play rugby on the friday evening for our school and again on the saturday morning for our clubs and often there would be problems if a player refused to play for one of the sides. I remember our coaches telling me off for going to one training session and not the other. Basically the wru changed it so players wouldnt be playing a silly amount of games and tried to organise it beter which from my experiances is a good thing. these days the clubs do it all. Besides club rugby was always a much higher standard because only players who wanted to play rugby were in those sides. how many school games did you play in where half the boys didnt want to be there and did nothing all game? Or were simply there so they could miss a lesson they didnt want to attend. very often those games were about 2-3 star players who were trying and carried the team, while the rest were messing about. Also the coaching at school level was terrible id played a year and a half as a prop before anyone told me i was supposed to push in the scrum! one day one of the coaches went against me in a scrum and said why arent u pushing, i replied am i supposed to and got told off! Id never pushed before and no opponent had pushed me, we simply engaged and let the hookers hook the ball. I remember playing in the next game against cefn cribwr and i started leaning in on their hooker and targeting to try and do what my teacher said and he started crying and told the ref on me .
Club rugby was much tougher and of more benefit.

AlynDavies wrote:I know a lot of you are mentioning the school level of rugby however if you look at the WRU structure and pyramid system you would know Schools rugby was stopped for a reason. Clubs try and run junior teams and this was hindered by schools rugby. Very often we would play rugby on the friday evening for our school and again on the saturday for our clubs and often there would be problems if a player refused to play for one of the sides. I remember our coaches telling me off for going to one training session and not the other. Basically the wru changed it so players wouldnt be playing a silly amount of games and tried to organise it beter which from my experiances is a good thing. these days the clubs do it all. Besides club rugby was always a much higher standard because only players who wanted to play rugby were in those sides. how many school games did you play in where half the boys didnt want to be there and did nothing all game? very often those games were about 2-3 star players who were trying and carried the team, while the rest were messing about.

Well compare NZ to Wales or any of the UK / NH set ups and NZ win ands down. Maybe the WRU and the clubs need to have a long hard look at why we are so far behind NZ! Too many chief's perhaps.

welshjohn369 wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:I know a lot of you are mentioning the school level of rugby however if you look at the WRU structure and pyramid system you would know Schools rugby was stopped for a reason. Clubs try and run junior teams and this was hindered by schools rugby. Very often we would play rugby on the friday evening for our school and again on the saturday for our clubs and often there would be problems if a player refused to play for one of the sides. I remember our coaches telling me off for going to one training session and not the other. Basically the wru changed it so players wouldnt be playing a silly amount of games and tried to organise it beter which from my experiances is a good thing. these days the clubs do it all. Besides club rugby was always a much higher standard because only players who wanted to play rugby were in those sides. how many school games did you play in where half the boys didnt want to be there and did nothing all game? very often those games were about 2-3 star players who were trying and carried the team, while the rest were messing about.

Well compare NZ to Wales or any of the UK / NH set ups and NZ win ands down. Maybe the WRU and the clubs need to have a long hard look at why we are so far behind NZ! Too many chief's perhaps.

well said John

worst decision ever to neglect school boy rugby.

It should be bloody championed. It is the first introduction and it should be something a whole school is proud of whether you play or not.

We are all obsessed with sport, passionate about it, we see the good and the relevance of it... Schools need to understand that too. The rugby loving public should help as much as they can.

Mind you with London running our education budgets we are screwed....

doctor_grey, you are wrong about Wales being a rugby country - we aren't any more. Those of us that are passionate about rugby cling on to the notion that it's our national sport but it's just nostalgia. Rugby has been diluted in our schools for a generation or more - a combination of a huge array of sports on offer (not a bad thing some might say) and a philosophy that competition is a bad thing to teach!

As for the game - the BB's were outstanding and better in every way than the Welsh boys. I don't blame the management I blame the complete lack of passion, committment and determination. No so called tier one nation should lose by 100 points ever, at any level. It was a shameful display and indicative of how far grass roots rugby has fallen away in Wales.

biltongbek wrote:Firstly I doubt if you picked the best 15 whether they would have done much better.

If what some posters are saying is true about school rugby being non existent in Wales then that is a serious problem.

You can't expect to have kids that have not played competitive rugby from a later age to compete against the BB, they have a ten year advantage on you.

So whether you lose by 60 or 100 points, I doubt the players will learn anything in those losses.

Exactly right...

THe Kiwis, English, Irish, SA and even Scottish kids are playing very competitive inter school rugby from under 15.

Schools rugby takes priority in Ireland.

maestegmafia wrote:Universities are full of foreigners, our kids also usually go abroad to England for degrees.

Rugby at school in Wales in the sixties was of a much higher level than it is now. We lost that competition in schools rugby in the seventies, probably when we were all fighting the government for the right to work and in that we lost our world standing in the game.

England, abroad???

Best player to ever grace the game - Gareth Edwards, he actually went to Millfield school in Somerset. He got whipped by Weston Super Mare Grammar school, with my old man as his opposite number!

nice constructive input there Stag


I agree with what other's have said about schools rugby in Wales. Whilst I don't think it's bad the country over (for example where I come from in Carmarthenshire there was a great rivalry between lots of the local secondary schools, with good competition to really up their standards) but it is clearly something that does need working on so all schools are up to the same standard in their rugby.

I don't know whether the funding is there for this, but it just makes sense to put structures in place for schools rugby. This is where the we're falling short in our development and Welsh players will always be playing catch up on players of the same age from countries like NZ. If the set up stays as it is, I can't see us ever being good enough to beat them.

bathmad - are you sure that's not an ever so slightly exagerated family story?