Red Roses Autumn Series and WXV1

First topic message reminder :

The Red Roses have a challenging schedule this autumn:

7 Sept	England v France	Kingsholm	3.30pm BST
14 Sept	England v New Zealand	Allianz	2.30pm BST
29 Sept	USA v England	BC Place, Vancouver	8.30pm BST
6 Oct	New Zealand v England	Langley Event Centre, Langley	9.00pm BST
12/13 Oct	Canada v England	BC Place, Vancouver	3.00am BST

Poorfour wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Slightly off topic but regarding women's Rugby:  Has anyone gone and watched the Leicester women's Rugby team live?  I ask because a women from my Rugby club here in New Jersey is playing for the Leicester women.  Further, she plays for the US national team and actually captained the US team against Japan a couple of months ago.  We are hyper proud of our Tess Fuery.  So wondering if anyone has seen her play.  She plays in the back three.  

You've mentioned her here before, I think. I've not seen her play yet, but Big Game 16 will see Leicester Women play Quins Women on 28 Dec at 3pm UK time, so I will see her live then.

Yeah, I probably have mentioned her before.  But it is so rare for someone from over here to have a regular role playing at the top level, male or female.  Plus being from my club, she has achieved higher than anyone from Morris Rugby.  She was back here for a few weeks and is such a nice kid.  Plus already completed her initial training as a nurse.  

Sorry for going off topic, but this is such a proud thing for everyone from Morris RFC.  The Big Game is Quins-Tigers?

doctor_grey wrote:Sorry for going off topic, but this is such a proud thing for everyone from Morris RFC.  The Big Game is Quins-Tigers?

Yup.

And not to hijack the thread, but I completely understand where you're coming from. Ms Poorfour Maj has friends who are in the England U18s setup with ambitions to play professionally, and it's a huge thing for their clubs to see that happen.

Abbie Dow has a head injury so Westcombe-Evans comes in instead.

England: Kildunne; Westcombe-Evans, Rowland, Heard, Breach; Aitchison, Hunt; Botterman, Cokayne, Muir, Aldcroft, Galligan, Feaunati, M Packer (capt), Matthews.

Replacements: Atkin-Davies, Carson, Bern, Ward, Talling, L Packer, Harrison, Scarratt.

Aitchison in over Harrison again is something I simply don't understand. Aitchison is not a bad player, just one who's some way off her best. Zoe Harrison demonstrated in the USA game how good she can be, yet is being overlooked again. Holly's made a lot of mistakes recently - I just don't see the logic in constantly picking her ahead of Harrison and expecting additional game time to iron out these issues. Unfortunately Aitchison currently passes to anyone but her teammates, misses touch, and tackles like a flailing 2014 Chris Ashton. And that's just in the last game.

I'd also like to see Ella Wyrwas get more game time. Still, it's a great squad and great to see Westcombe-Evans get another bite of the cherry. Canada at home should be a good test, especially with their physicality. Just a shame it's on at 3am UK time.

Dow being unavailable is a blow, she's been fantastic in every game. Not just attacking but defending. Westcombe-Evans deserves her start and hopefully this time Kildunne will pass to her not go for glory and not score!

Aitchison, a very good player but not as good as Harrison and prone to glaring errors.

As for kick off time, going on crowds in other matches Canadians not massive fans so I wonder how many they'll get for home team. The online audience be a lot bigger for a say 1500pm local time kick off which would be 2300 BST. I'm intending on getting up to watch although my resolve may waver. Can always watch on repeat seeing as it's Iplayer but it's never the same.

I think we have to view the selections we might not make through the lens that England can afford to treat every game as a development game. Persisting with Aitchison when Harrison is clearly in better form may reflect that they know they can give her time to develop in the role, or that she's a better fit to the gameplan they are working on implementing.

Couldn't sleep so sneaked downstairs to watch. Canada early try and looking decent

Good response by England, huge carry by Mathews to make try for Muir

A great game so far, and England being tested in ways they haven’t been for a long time.

Cogger-Orr is doing a good job so far, though I’d like her to be a bit firmer on Canada rolling away before they are allowed to go for the ball. They are doing a very cute job of being just enough in the way to slow things down.

England haven’t been ruthless enough in the 22 - they may rue some of the missed chances. But I’d expect their fitness to show at the end of the match.

Canada seem to be dominating breakdown, England should kick for territory and compete at line out as have edge there. Close so far but bench and fitness favour England.

This could be trouble for England - Kildunne carded for side entry.

The penalty before that was fine, but Canada have been doing the same all game without sanction.

Canada’s loosehead is a touch quantum in the scrum - only stays up when she’s being watched.

Canada better team so far, England poor. Too many errors.

FFS another yellow.

Two Canadian knock ons in the same passage of play missed there.
England are looking rattled. They need to settle and get the ball in the right part of the pitch.

Better from England. I’d like to see a replay of the late hit off the lineout.

Second YC period managed much better than the first. Well done Sarah Bern

Now Canada have lost a bit of composure. What a tense game.

I think England knew the penalty was coming from that scrum and just squeezed until the TH went down

Ref playing long advantage for knock ons.
Aitchison had a good game but Harrison should been on earlier. Subs made difference second half.

When you have to dig deep, trust the forwards to grind out a score to seal the game.

England were really tested there, but showed just how many options they have to score.

I expect Mitchell will want to see some big improvements in breakdown accuracy, unforced error count and discipline off the back of that.

But on the other hand, to beat the #2 team in the world away having been a player down for 20 minutes would be seen as a great result for any other team. It’s a measure of how good this side is that they’ll be criticised for what they did wrong rather than celebrated for what they did right.

Late score puts gloss on scoreline but overall England were pretty average. Canada were really up for this.
Marlie Packer isn't player she was, Talling made a big difference.

mountain man wrote:Ref playing long advantage for knock ons.
Aitchison  had a good game but  Harrison should been on earlier. Subs made difference second half.

She was very consistent in doing that, though, and I think it was fair.

The principle with scrum advantage is that the non-offending team should have a chance to play the ball cleanly, which is usually taken to mean getting a breakdown where they have options. The pressure from both sides in defence was so good, and the intent to keep the ball alive so strong that those clean breakdowns didn’t happen, and there weren’t the kicks or gains in territory that would also signal the end of advantage.

mountain man wrote:Late score puts gloss on scoreline but overall England were pretty average. Canada were really up for this.
Marlie Packer isn't player she was, Talling made a big difference.

Since when is a 20 game winning streak, including multiple wins against the next best sides in the world “pretty average”? England didn’t run up a cricket score, and they made mistakes, but they were put under pressure by the side who are establishing themselves as the clear world #2.

I agree with you about Packer. I expect Kabeya and Feaunati will be the starting flankers for RWC 25, assuming they are both fit.

Because Eng this morning were pretty average at best. Canada put them under immense pressure and England far too often took wrong option. Tried to run everything and then got turned over multiple times when kick to touch and compete and likely win line out would be better option. Hence game management pretty poor.

Just because Eng won doesn't automatically mean they were good. They weren't but they won.

Average by what standard? By their own, maybe.

Though I think that when they do the analysis next week, there will be more things to be pleased about than upset about. They were pushed hard by a very good team, didn’t have dominance in every area and made mistakes (though I would say there were fewer unforced errors than in the earlier matches in the series).

By the standards of any other women’s team in the world? That was, objectively not an average performance. They beat a team on a 6 game winning streak that included France (twice) and the Black Ferns. Any other team in the world - including Canada - would have gladly taken that performance.

Not every Red Roses game will be a beautiful, flowing sweep to victory. England faced a team that could match them physically and had prepared to put pressure on their game plan. To call England’s response average does not give credit to how well Canada played.

On Packer - yet to see this game but was struck from what I have seen recently that she is increasingly focusing on ruck inspection. She's obviously important as a leader but agree she's not doing the things she used to.

The sooner Kabeya back the better, Packer I'm afraid rather like Scarratt not player she was. Feanuati was notably better as was Mathews in back row.

mountain man wrote:The sooner Kabeya back the better, Packer I'm afraid rather like Scarratt not player she was. Feanuati was notably better as was Mathews in back row.

I doubt Mitchell is one for keeping players in place due to sentimental reasons. He'll want the best 15 on the pitch. Marlie's a great motivator, a loud and domineering presence on the pitch and is good with establishing a rapport with the referee. That said, this all pales into insignificance if she's not performing as a player. Sadia Kabeya is a fantastic player and certainly a future Captain. Plus I believe she was a better player (not captain!) than Marlie when she burst onto the scene as a novice international in 2021. A back row of Talling, Kabeya and Matthews could arguably outperform a similar back row of Talling, Packer and Matthews.

Is Marlie's captaincy a certainty for the RWC? Is she slipping? Mitchell will know all the stats that we don't. It'll be an interesting few months to see if the captaincy changes hands, or Marlie finds form and fitness over what she's doing now.

My backrow be Kabeya Feanuati and Matthews. As for capt, there's always too much emphasis put on this for me. Pick best 15 then capt from there. If Packer wasn't capt would she be automatic choice? I say not.
She's still obviously a very good player but last 12months I'd say lost a bit and there are better options.

mountain man wrote:My backrow be Kabeya Feanuati and Matthews. As for capt, there's always too much emphasis put on this for me. Pick best 15 then capt from there. If Packer wasn't capt would she be automatic choice? I say not.
She's still obviously a very good player but last 12months I'd say lost a bit and there are better options.

I would go with the same starting lineup, though Talling is a good alternate from the bench or when they need an extra lineout option

The girls do seem to have the happy knack of maximising their points in games, so even in a match like this where they weren't as accurate as they would have liked to be, they came through for the victory in the end.

I though the ref should have been a bit stricter on offside in defence, as both teams were definitely pushing the line up in midfield - Canada in particular trying to stymie England's flat passing to the outside backs. Both teams had some joy with short balls to inside runners.

The Canada number 6 looked a hell of a good player.

I believe that the draw for the Women's Rugby World Cup is Live on the One Show on BBC1 tonight at 7pm. Could be interesting to see who is in which Pool.

For the "lesser" teams maybe but realistically England won't be bothered. They'll know which teams they'll need to beat to win the RWC. Some teams probably hoping not to be Eng group as cricket score could result.

mountain man wrote:For the "lesser" teams maybe but realistically England won't be bothered. They'll know which teams they'll need to beat to win the RWC. Some teams probably hoping not to be Eng group as cricket score could result.

I think England and Canada will be fairly unfussed about who ends up in their groups, but France and NZ could easily end up with opponents who have beaten them recently or are pushing them in the world rankings. Equally, the gap between the Band 2 teams and the top of Band 3 is quite small. I think there's a 50% chance of one Group of Death, where the Band 2 and 3 teams could take a win off a higher ranked team, and a 16.5% chance that both France and NZ end up in a group like that.