Send them to France!

Do you think that exporting your countries top players to France is a great idea? When reading the comments under the Gatland story today in Walesonline i was amazed to read people arguing that losing some of their countries best players would be a great thing. The argument runs like this: They will improve because they will be playing in the Top 14. It saves the clubs/union a fortune in wages. Younger players will get a chance to play for the regions so depth will improve.

The thing is i thought that Scotland and Italy had no choice but to continually lose their best players and that it hadn't helped either their clubs or their country. But Argentina and New Zealand are in the same boat so perhaps this is not always true.

France and Ireland generally keep their best players in the country, the French because they have little competition financially and the Irish because it's an IRFU policy to try to do this. Their argument is that keeping the best players here keeps the clubs/provinces strong and this helps the popularity of rugby. Success at provincial level leads to success at national level and that the local connection with players builds a close relationship with fans.

So what do you all think? Should the best be sent to the Top 14 or kept at home if at all possible?

Both

Its good under certain circumstance and if its not ALL your top players. Some is fine as they will improve their game and their places at home can be used to develop new talent - but that talent need other top player around to learn from and for the next generation to be inspired by.

Kept at home fans pay to see the best players play on home soil otherwise the French league will continue to get richer and the rest of us will just lag further behind.

I understand the point of developing new talent but it's far better if a young player is in the first XV because he has forced his way in rather than being selected simply because a better player than him has decided to leave the club/region.
The problem we have in Wales is that at the moment there are not enough regions for us to be able to develop the younger players.

Completely...!

The best players should be playing at the best level.

If older players move away from the regions they give more opportunity for the young players to stake claims, improve, learn and succeed..

Elder players that have already proved themselves on home grounds will learn far more by moving to other countries and gaining from what those countries have to offer culturally as well as on the rugby field.

In face I would be keen on more of the young regional players taking sabbaticals in New Zealand or South Africa in the off season to benefit from what they can in some kind of exchange program. I know a few have done it, but the more the merrier. Especially after have so recently been exposed to the quality of young all black rugby.

What about knowing that your best players will be flogged from one end of a very long season to the other? Or that getting them to join the national squad for training camps will be difficult?

Ronan O'Gara has said in an interview that the IRFU making sure that players are playing limited numbers of games helps to lengthen their careers. If so, then playing in the Top 14 should do the opposite.

Intotouch wrote:What about knowing that your best players will be flogged from one end of a very long season to the other? Or that getting them to join the national squad for training camps will be difficult?

Ronan O'Gara has said in an interview that the IRFU making sure that players are playing limited numbers of games helps to lengthen their careers. If so, then playing in the Top 14 should do the opposite.

They seem to have pretty decent size squads In the Top 14 and rotate their players regularly. I don't think that players are flogged any more than elsewhere.

I think it improves players to an extent. The potential problem with all players in one league is that the teams and referees tend to follow a certain pattern, and then when they go up against international opposition and ref's then they can struggle, although the HK means that this isn't as bad as it was and plus the IRB seem to keep moving the ref's around regularly. In all fairness Ireland are proving my argument wrong on this at the moment but it seems that the players have to go to one of the big 3 provinces as a rule before they make Ireland's first choice squad (and so they get top level European experience).

As an England fan I think it'd pretty obvious that both Palmer and Haskell have become better players since they moved to France. Different training methods may help certain players and as long as the player has certain stipulations regarding their release to the national training squads and number of games then I don't see a problem. Perhaps a system where countries a rugby board checks the details of the players foreign contract and gives it the okay could be used.

I know that they are not always available for their national teams but the SH players have much more exposure to NH rugby than the other way around. Does this give them an advantage when they return to their homeland prior to World Cups?

I think provided they aren't going at too young an age, then it's a good thing. If they reach 25 or older then why not go for 2-4 years to make some serious money before coming back to Wales to finish their careers off and hopefully go into coaching.
I really dont want to see kids from our u20 side out there though. but once their established internationals it's a good thing. Certainly it's helped Gareth Thomas and Stephen Jones when they did it.

AlynDavies wrote:I think provided they aren't going at too young an age, then it's a good thing. If they reach 25 or older then why not go for 2-4 years to make some serious money before coming back to Wales to finish their careers off and hopefully go into coaching.
I really dont want to see kids from our u20 side out there though. but once their established internationals it's a good thing. Certainly it's helped Gareth Thomas and Stephen Jones when they did it.

I disagree Alyn

I think it would benefit young players immensely. I dont necessarily think players that are not getting regular rugby should be free agents, though I can see massive benefits from the regions organising exchange programs with foreign sides in France, SA or New Zealand to expose them to a different grade of rugby. Maybe receiving a few of their youngsters may benefit our own in Wales too.

maestegmafia wrote:I disagree Alyn

I think it would benefit young players immensely. I dont necessarily think players that are not getting regular rugby should be free agents, though I can see massive benefits from the regions organising exchange programs with foreign sides in France, SA or New Zealand to expose them to a different grade of rugby. Maybe receiving a few of their youngsters may benefit our own in Wales too.

I agree having one of our regions try and do a tie up with one of the New Zealand provinces to send a few of our players out there each season during our off season would be very beneficial to us.
However a few years ago clubs like Sale were trying to hoover up a lot of our young talent into their academy and none of it ever came to fruition. I think our players are far better off staying in Wales until they broken through to the regional side and got a couple of season for Wales under their belts.

maestegmafia wrote:I disagree Alyn

I think it would benefit young players immensely. I dont necessarily think players that are not getting regular rugby should be free agents, though I can see massive benefits from the regions organising exchange programs with foreign sides in France, SA or New Zealand to expose them to a different grade of rugby. Maybe receiving a few of their youngsters may benefit our own in Wales too.

AlynDavies wrote:I agree having one of our regions try and do a tie up with one of the New Zealand provinces to send a few of our players out there each season during our off season would be very beneficial to us.

Why only one region?

The thing is that travelling abroad ay not benefit everyone, though it may massively develop others.

England have seen the fruition of exploiting the Kiwi and South African system with players like Dylan Hartley, Martin Johnson and Tom Palmer.

AlynDavies wrote:However a few years ago clubs like Sale were trying to hoover up a lot of our young talent into their academy and none of it ever came to fruition. I think our players are far better off staying in Wales until they broken through to the regional side and got a couple of season for Wales under their belts.

This probably says far more about premiership clubs who see International rugby as a spin off of their precious and well supported Premiership.

maestegmafia wrote:
Why only one region?

The thing is that travelling abroad ay not benefit everyone, though it may massively develop others.

England have seen the fruition of exploiting the Kiwi and South African system with players like Dylan Hartley, Martin Johnson and Tom Palmer.

This probably says far more about premiership clubs who see International rugby as a spin off of their precious and well supported Premiership.

I doubt any of the other regions other than the Ospreys would be capable of pulling it off.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
Why only one region?

The thing is that travelling abroad ay not benefit everyone, though it may massively develop others.

England have seen the fruition of exploiting the Kiwi and South African system with players like Dylan Hartley, Martin Johnson and Tom Palmer.

This probably says far more about premiership clubs who see International rugby as a spin off of their precious and well supported Premiership.

I doubt any of the other regions other than the Ospreys would be capable of pulling it off.

Why is that?

All of the regions have experimented with various foreign NWQ players and have enjoyed and benefitted from some and not from others, but they must all have good links abroad.

What does it say for the richest country in the world in both players and resources.
When Players have to go to France to improve there game?Top14 has only 55%French players in it.
For every player who goes abroad for cash,more come back worse for there sojourn abroad.
If Players are in the England squad[this also applies to other 5Ns countries too].will they be released for Tests and training outside certain windows.
The idea of developing young players,and giving them more game time while cutting the wage bill sounds fine in theory.
In practice it means signing some SH top talent on big money to boost your sides hopes of winning something.
Or if your really desperate parachute a SH import with a suddenly discovered Grand parent to boost your National team.
From the players point of view,a Senior Test player now only being used as a bench warmer.
Going abroad for better money makes perfect sense,take the cash and still be in with a chance for another test cap.
Martin Johnson Kiwi or South African? hardly learned some of his stuff in "Pinetree" country but not a native Kiwi.

maestegmafia wrote:Why is that?
All of the regions have experimented with various foreign NWQ players and have enjoyed and benefitted from some and not from others, but they must all have good links abroad.

Yup but I think in Wales case we cant really compete anymore for big name players that are looking for that final big contract for their pension. I understand the Ospreys were interested in Nonu but their offers got creamed by those in Japan and France.
The Ospreys have signed that 21 year old Australian outside half to play at Bridgend next season (Welsh qualified), so at least they are looking about.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Why is that?
All of the regions have experimented with various foreign NWQ players and have enjoyed and benefitted from some and not from others, but they must all have good links abroad.

Yup but I think in Wales case we cant really compete anymore for big name players that are looking for that final big contract for their pension. I understand the Ospreys were interested in Nonu but their offers got creamed by those in Japan and France.
The Ospreys have signed that 21 year old Australian outside half to play at Bridgend next season (Welsh qualified), so at least they are looking about.

I don't think Nonu has even heard of the ospreys, that story was utter BS.

Welsh rugby is geared towards producing talented Welsh qualified players funded by profits made by the WRU. We will see less NWQ players, more young welsh talent and more experienced players over the age of 25 going abroad for larger contracts.

And I think all of that is good.

Whether the regions will ever become more competitive at HEC level remains to be seen, but it would be a huge benefit to the whole process if they were.

As for saving money and having successful club sides sending the best players abroad is the wrong thing to do in a couple of ways. If the club decides to save money by letting the best players go then it's not going to get the best results and the fans buying tickets will dwindle. Then pretty soon the club will have to let it's best players go, won't be able to replace them and slowly go bankrupt. It's a false economy. Look at the crowds in Scotland. Keeping and buying in the best players should be a priority for clubs. Without the high standard of player the club sides will in time go bust. Fans just won't put up with dodgy rugby indefinitely. How will this benefit anyone?

If you want your countries players to improve another way is surely to hire better coaches and bring in a few excellent players to help the locals to learn.

That doesn't mean that the national side will have less depth. What happens then is that the second best players travel instead to get to play more. Depth is still being created.

maestegmafia wrote:I don't think Nonu has even heard of the ospreys, that story was utter BS.

Welsh rugby is geared towards producing talented Welsh qualified players funded by profits made by the WRU. We will see less NWQ players, more young welsh talent and more experienced players over the age of 25 going abroad for larger contracts.

And I think all of that is good.

Whether the regions will ever become more competitive at HEC level remains to be seen, but it would be a huge benefit to the whole process if they were.

Yes that's exactly what I want too. A conveyor belt of talent being produced by our regions academies, with them staying in Wales till 24 ish then they can go off to France / England and earn big money, which will free up a space for the next player. Those players leaving will hopefully come back in their latter years to help out the younger players at our regions then go into coaching.
Try saying that to your average Ospreys fan, especially on their fan forum and you will be lynched!

Intotouch wrote:

As for saving money and having successful club sides sending the best players abroad is the wrong thing to do in a couple of ways. If the club decides to save money by letting the best players go then it's not going to get the best results and the fans buying tickets will dwindle. Then pretty soon the club will have to let it's best players go, won't be able to replace them and slowly go bankrupt. It's a false economy. Look at the crowds in Scotland. Keeping and buying in the best players should be a priority for clubs. Without the high standard of player the club sides will in time go bust. Fans just won't put up with dodgy rugby indefinitely. How will this benefit anyone?

If you want your countries players to improve another way is surely to hire better coaches and bring in a few excellent players to help the locals to learn.

That doesn't mean that the national side will have less depth. What happens then is that the second best players travel instead to get to play more. Depth is still being created.

I don't necessarily agree with that, I am really looking forward to seeing what I believe will be a rejuvenated Ospreys team next season, with less international players being called away and interrupting consistent selection, our young and exciting players could be a decent and entertaining team to watch.

It worked well for the scarlets this year, better than the year before for them. I think that was reflected in their gate receipts?

send them off, let them improve their game in france getting paid nicely and playing in the bets league in the world while letting their gaps get filled by youngsters from the acadamey- best of both worlds simple-this then will mean better strength in depth and more players competing for places so they dont get compacent with their jersey such as current players due to no competition

maestegmafia wrote:I don't necessarily agree with that, I am really looking forward to seeing what I believe will be a rejuvenated Ospreys team next season, with less international players being called away and interrupting consistent selection, our young and exciting players could be a decent and entertaining team to watch.

It worked well for the scarlets this year, better than the year before for them. I think that was reflected in their gate receipts?

Yes me too, I will be at the stadium with my 2 brother in laws cheering us on.
Though it seems any time we bring a young player through Gatland calls him up stright away!
Bevington, Tipuric, Prydie this season. Matthew Morgan probably next season...

I cant wait though we have a solid and experienced pack with a lot of young talented kids behind the scrum.