UKA COME 4TH IN EUROPE

This is such a terrible result for a wealthy nation which spends so much on athletics, and we were only a few points ahead of the French.

A reminder of the 2010 results
1. Russia 379.5
2. Great Britain 317
3. Germany 304.5
4. France 290
5. Ukraine 287

The 2011 results
1. Russia 385
2. Germany 331.5
3. Ukraine 304
4. Great Britain 289
5. France 284

Lets be honest here everyone is this really acceptable, if it was football then everyone would be calling for a new change of management. Or is it that we really do not give this event the attention it really deserves?
What do others think?

I thought you were of the opinion that these events mean absolutely nothing when it comes to talking about the relative strength of the sport in a country.

Oh wait, that only holds true when we do well doesn't it?

Isn't France a wealthy nation then? I thought you've been championing them as being much better than GB and we still beat them with a 'terrible' performance, how do you explain that?

But I don't mind you getting all excited about British kids not peforming too well, it's not exactly healthy, but it's better than getting excited over serious injuries to young athletes I guess.

Do you think that Britain could have put out a better team and scored more highly if this event was perhaps more significant in terms of a season's goals, or is this result a fair reflection of where things are at the moment? I.e could having Ennis, Rutherford, Farah, Idowu, Ohurogou, Dean, Rimmer, Dobriskey, Myerscough, etc improved our score at all?

Actually, not a terrible result from any aspect from a substantially B-string team. There were some below the par performances but there were also some excellent displays the other way round and many surprises on top of that.

In fact, Britain have come out with even more hopefuls of top results in Daegu and some new faces that promise much. So nothing to worry about.

Further, I hope you don't extend that into any political issue over here. That's a warning.

Of the serious GB prospects for Daegu I can only think of Sayers as having improved their chances. Can't think of too many others serious prospects doing well but a number of the B string did well.

Most of the team performed at par with a disappointing number at sub-par.

In the overall context of the individual season's objectives a little bit of an irrelevance to most of the top GB athletes. Hence the no-shows.

Actually, apart from Goldie, Charlene Thomas and Andy Turner produced very good performances that lay the platform to some strong performances in over two months.

Chris Tomlinson showed in good nick and he's to be reckoned with too while Lee McConnell looked again flowing in the relay. Watch this space.

If you want to take the event seriously-then it is a major embarrassment.

However, there are several athletes that didn't bother going, and they'd have turned the tables around.

This event was not taken seriously by the athletes. It does show that UKA has no control over its funded athletes. I do feel that needs to be changed. If the athletes are on funding, they must do as they are told by UKA (injuries permitting).

In regards to Idowu; Travelling off to NY for a Diamond League meet wasn't needed (money grabbing). But i guess he earnt more from that meet than the whole of what UKA would have funded for this year.

My point being if this was the England football team competing on behalf of the nation then questions would be asked.

We should do our very best with our very best and strongest team, otherwise why bother with the team aspect of athletics which is constantly being pushed down our throats.

It all becomes something not worth getting behind because it loses its purpose if it is not pursued in a genuine manner.

The way CVC and UKA approach this leaves lots of get outs for them, and then there is always Jackson who looks so embarrased at having to apologise for all the "Mistakes" The weather, the temperature, the slippery baton, did the Russians put grease on our batons????

Stop apologising and defending a poor team approach, of course there were some good performances, there always are!!! Thanks to " Individual performances"

The team was picked by CVC the team he picked did not justify his income and the money absorbed by UKA.


And of course other countries had big names they did not send also, which makes things look worse, they cannot have it both ways, if we do well it was planned if we do badly then it was just a b string experiment, heads they win tails we soryy athletics lose

Wrong, the team he actually wanted did not go. He does not have control over the athletes.

Don't start going all anti-UKA on this forum please. It is not as if any other organisation in the UK can do any better.

The issue here is that, the athletes did not take the event seriously or right it in the calendars or plan to turn up in the first place. We have many athletes that could have gone and done a damn site better than we actually did. But the fact is, they didn't bother going, thus we looked bad. It was not entirely UKA's fault. It was the athletes that didn't go who were the cause of this fiasco.

UKA must take control of its funded athletes, events like this must be on the calendar as a must turn up for funding.

FACT: It was more the athletes fault than UKA's.

Flash - I think considering that we were missing a lot of our best names that we did well. Obviously we could have done better (we always can!) but I for one am quite pleased. A lot of youngsters got exposure to their first big meet in a GB vest and this can only be good for buidling up a depth in certain events that I for one have always felt we've been lacking in.

We were very unlucky to miss out on third, but I think that with the good promising signs we've seen that our athletics team are actually looking in good nick right now with a lot of good things to work on. As development goes I think this was a very good experience for a lot of the squad, and knowing how to work within a team environment.

I for one was happy with it, but I can understand why others wouldn't be. The UK in all sports is often viewed as unerachieving what with all the money that is spent on it, but I really felt positive after viewing this weekends action. There's such a scope for improvement and the groundwork appears to have been set out for us to build on it effectively. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that happens anyway

I just wish we could all compete separately as England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland like the commonwealth games as opposed to all this Team GB/UKA nonsense

Steffan - I don't believe Wales, NI or Scotland would be able to afford to compete as seperate nations. I know Wales wouldn't be able to anyway, we don't have the right system set up here for it to be financially viable. That's what I think anyway. Besides I quite like that it's only the Commonwealth Games our athletes get to represent Wales, it makes it a very special tournament for me

Otherwise I get fully behind Team GB, it's when all of our best athletes get together to represent all 4 nations, and it makes me proud.

And getting back on topic - what did you make of Team GB's performance over the weekend?

rugbydreamer wrote:Steffan - I don't believe Wales, NI or Scotland would be able to afford to compete as seperate nations. I know Wales wouldn't be able to anyway, we don't have the right system set up here for it to be financially viable. That's what I think anyway. Besides I quite like that it's only the Commonwealth Games our athletes get to represent Wales, it makes it a very special tournament for me

Otherwise I get fully behind Team GB, it's when all of our best athletes get together to represent all 4 nations, and it makes me proud.

And getting back on topic - what did you make of Team GB's performance over the weekend?

Being Welsh im obviously only interested in the Welsh athletes when watchin TeamGB/UKA and I was happy with how our athletes performed. Room for improvment but was good enough for now

I wasn't particularly concerned by the no-shows as that's quite normal for this event. Nor was I particularly upset with anything the management did apart from not picking Sotherton for the relay.

Of course the weather also seems to have affected some events more than others.

I am however disappointed when so many athletes in the throws and jumps under-perform. Not that I was expecting top 3 places or anything like that, but something nearer to their season bests would have been good. This seems to happen year after year with the occasional bright spark.

teassoc - think the results in the throws/jumps etc a lot of that was down to the weather. I was pleased with Brett (I believe it is? am probably wrong!) in the discuss, getting one position higher that predicted, he looks like one of the most promising throwers we've had in a while. Thought Tomlinson was solid in the long jump too.

Think our women jumpers need a lot of work/development though. Despite the weather playing a factor, I do have to confess that I was disappointed with them.

First of all, there was no 'poor performance' of any kind, it was a good overall display by the team given circumstances and an under-strength make-up. There were four wins, three individual and one in the relays, and several top three places with a good numbers of surprises therein, as there were a good number of PB or SBs in the background of poor weather conditions.

Second, funded athletes are bound to turn up and compete as concerns top tier events like the Olympics, World Champs or the Europeans on their contracts but not affairs like the European Cup or even the Commonwealths.

The European Cup itself is not a top tier event but a good ground to gauge the form or certain athletes, blood up-and-coming individuals or give a good international runout to some returning to action from injury. It's more of a stepping stone and not the peak into a season so it has to be dealt with accordingly.

Charles van Commennee manages and endeavours to make the most of the pool of athletes at his disposal so that British squads can achieve the best possible results in the major championships - and has done that with great success. So if he feels that he shouldn't risk lining up or rest a certain athlete, or blood some newcomer in a senior competition, he does simply that and he does well.

Top athletes should be allowed leeway so that they can build up in the best possible way and the chief coach has got to take that into account. If Phillips Idowu, Jessica Ennis or Mo Farah don't feel it fits in their build-up to the Worlds, then they should go round it and employ the course they reckon best.

At the end of the day, they're the ones going to shoulder the burden expectations in Daegu so they have got to arrive there in the best possible shape. The wider picture is what matters and where emphasis has to be placed on, not an event that is very much like the 'Carling Cup' of football.

lsabre wrote:First of all, there was no 'poor performance' of any kind, it was a good overall display by the team given circumstances and an under-strength make-up. There were four wins, three individual and one on the relays, and several top three places with a good numbers of surprises therein, as there were a good number of PB or SBs in the background of poor weather conditions.

You should know by now Isabre that I tend to agree with much of what you have to say but I take exception on this point.

Possibly the weather conditions were largely to blame but I'm not sure that excuses the generally poor performances by the men and women in the throws and jumps. The exceptions being Sayers and Tomlinson who did exceptionally well under the circumstances.

We see this year after year so I remain cynical about the weather being the main factor. I'm not expecting them to get in the top three or anywhere like that but somewhere near their season's best, given the (relative) importance of the event, is more along the lines of what I was expecting.

In the main the track athletes did well and with better luck in the longer relays we could have easily finished third overall, which given the no shows was the best we could have achieved.

You should notice, however, Teassoc, that in most throwing events in particular a large part of the athletes ranged well below their bests and struggled to apply, in some cases things turning upside-down, which shows that very much how all were affected more or less by the conditions.

Apart from Goldie Sayers, I reckon that Chris Tomlinson performed well in the long jump while Holly Bleasdale, Brett Morse, Jade Nicholls and Sophie Hitchon did reasonably well in perspective.

On the other hand, Kola Adedoyin or Emma Perkins were emergency solutions and none could expect more from them.

In the case of Tiffany Porter or Shara Proctor one has got to take into account the effects of long haul travelling to get there that may have taken the edge out of their performance. Tiffany in particular didn't look fresh at all.

I found the weekend with a few acceptions pretty flat for GB, but not bad at all! The womens relays both look to have good potential, but lord please drop Laura Turner, she was solely the key to screwing that performance up, lost ground when getting the baton lost ground to both girls with her, one was an unknown German girl (I accept Ryemyen was unbeatable on that bend for Laura) who ran away from her on the outside after Kwakye & Onuora had kept us in the race (If not leading) after Povh & Pohrebnyak which was a superb start but then Laure struck! all i can say! (She is ok on her own but she has not got top speed on that bend to keep with the others).

I think that given the chicken up in the 4*4 it wasn't a bad result overall. We have had a little misfortune with Nathan Douglas getting injured and we have several big points scorers not in attendance. The same cannot be said of the UKraine who had pretty much a first etam squad out there, and congratulations to them on how they performed.

I think that we always tend to have rose tinted specs about the past and in reality this performance was about the norm for this comp. It is now mixed gender and given this fact we have to accept that we have never been good enough to win accross both genders. In addition the inclusion of 12 nations in the top flight means that our bad events are not even worse in terms of points than they ever were before. At least when we were finishing bottom in the womens shot before we were only giving away 7 or 8 points to the winners.

4th might be seen as a little disappointing , but hardly awful , surely? A few points one way or the other don't really mean a great deal in terms of the true strengths of a nation's athletics resources. As has been pointed out a lot of top athletes from most countries were missing - another week might have produced very different results. Though Russia would surely win overall anyway , just too much depth.
It is a team event , it is a lot of fun , it allows some new young talents to take their first steps on the world stage. But the major championships are the main game.

From GB viewpoint the good things were just that : new talent appearing , or stepping up ...Thomas , McColgan , Shane, Stockton...plus Greene and Turner did the business professionally , Tomlinson and Meadows lost no friends .

And above all Goldie Sayers was the highlight of the two days for me : not just the good mark but the way she came back after losing her 2nd spot to regain it with her last throw - that will be worth a lot in belief for her in Daegau.

Overall it wasn't a brilliant weekend for GB but hardly a disaster either. I thought 3rd was the best we could achieve with the team we sent. In the end we were in 3rd place for most of the weekend but just slipped to 4th in the last few events.

Highlight for me was Sayers. I also think this could give Charlene Thomas a real boost also that she can make finals at least at Worlds & Olympics.

At the end of the day, the team will be judged on Daegu & results from here will largely be forgotten.

Stupidity in the last event blew it for us.

What a pair of plonkers? My 10 year old twins know not to do that.

aye it was a bit of a shambles ian, and a shame to end it on that note.

Agree with you on Charlene Thomas, Tiger Rose, think this victory could be just what she needed to really push on now.

I also agree with you on Charlene Thomas, I have known her for a number of years, she is a smashing lass and a real grafter, I can see it will not be too long before she is around the 4minute mark and getting those international invitations she so richly deserves after the weekends superb performance

Flash,

You say that we should expect more because we spend so much money. But the French spend huge amounts of public money on athletics via local council expenditure which is required by law to support sport. yet we still beat them.

You seem to be falling into the trap of only considering expenditure by the NGB rather than all public expenditure.

Also, only a few years ago you told everybody that we should be copying the Swedish model as they were much more successful than us. Surely the points table backs up that this was a ridiculous idea.

THat said I note again that you are trying to hide highly polictical statements in amongst discussion of results. If you want to keep politics out of threads then perhaps you ought to heed your own advice and leave the political snipes out.

First of all throwing money at athletes will not make them "elite". With the best will in the world any coach can not make a talented athlete great. A great coach can.

As far as athletes/performances are concerned look at other teams. I always personally think that UK overall main competitor (position wise) is the Germans. The Germans are light years ahead when it comes to most of the field events including strength in depth but UKs better on the track.

From the german point of view the Germans had some heavyweights some who performed as expected and some not.

e.g In the womens side Javelin, Discus, Shot, Hammer all their athletes that turned up are truly world class and only really Nadine Müller under performed.

In the mens 1500m Carsten Schlangen probably slightly underperformed as did probably Christian Reif (8.47 long jumper) and Raul Spank. Possibly Mattias de Zordo below par.
Robert Harting consistent as ever

So who didn't turn up

Arianne Friedrich
Carolin Nytra
Sebastian Ernst
Ralf Bartels (but they still won with David Storl 20.81 and he's only 20)

All the other top german truly world class athletes were there - begs the question what excuse is there. Sebastian Ernst aside the other 3 are truly world class athletes so that is 3 - but all the other events the Germans sent their best athlete possible. Many of them World class athletes who are far better than what UK can offer in the same event. I would say the German elite athletes took it far more seriously than the UKs.

I never like the "preparation for xxxx" or "aiming to peak at xxx" statements. It is old hat now and I believe it is an attitude of a bygone age. Many of the truly world class athletes appear to be able to perform and want to compete at a good level throughout the season.

Thing is you can't win. If a UK Athlete has a good early season we are excited and when they fail the excuse is peaked too early or competed too much.
If the athlete stays away from competition "to concentrate on WC" and when they fail the excuse is didn't have enough competition.

Tyson Gay better not bother going to Daegu as he has obviously peaked too early.

I think this meeting is an excellent meeting for top athletes to prepare for their peak day which is some time away from now, a couple of jumps would not have affected Idowu one jot and he woudl have won, perhaps with one jump and in doing so helped the team.

Are you not going to debate the points I raised?

Just a note to please keep it sensible without any digs at eachother guys.

flashcoach wrote:BigGuts and sensible don't go together unfortunately, he is the same on every athletics forum,

I shall not debate anything with this objectionable person, this way for my part at least harmony will be maintained.

Is there a need for personal attacks? This should be reported to the admins, as such horrific comments are personal abuse of the highest order

Enough of the insults at other posters.
Debate by all means, but leave out the personal digs.
Last chance or further action will be taken.

Y I Man

Can I just say that you have easily the best name on the forum

thanks

flashcoach wrote:BiGuts keep your nonsense off this forum, what you say is just a veiled personal attack on me.

Mind explaining that?

I've read & re-read his posts & can find no personal attacks veiled or otherwise.

I must just have my UKA tinted glasses on.

hey guys, can I please ask that we get back on topic and move away from turning this thread into a mud slinging match if at all possible please. Thank you.

A lot of good points have been raised about how top athletes from other countries managed to make this competition, yet some of TeamGB's biggest names didn't.

Personally I'm of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with the likes of Ennis, Idowu etc missing this competition as I see it as more of a developmental tool in bringing more athletes into TeamGB and providing them with some big meet experience.

If this is what it really is then this is fine if they say that this is what it really is, then no one would mind, but like anyone else I get quite excited at a good team event and want us to win, but now I know that it is only for practise and experience for the athletes then I shall view it just as that, I shall just note the individual eventers performance not the insignificant team result or poor relays.

Glad thats sorted out.

Let's be honest, if winning this was the be all and end all, we could have just drafted Mo in to win the 1500, 3000 and 5000 like a nice Northern league triple play. Only it's easier for him because he gets to do it in 2 days, when you get a couple of hours in the league.

flashcoach wrote:If this is what it really is then this is fine if they say that this is what it really is, then no one would mind, but like anyone else I get quite excited at a good team event and want us to win, but now I know that it is only for practise and experience for the athletes then I shall view it just as that, I shall just note the individual eventers performance not the insignificant team result or poor relays.

Glad thats sorted out.

Ah come now Flash, I did say that was just my own personal take on it Not saying that's exactly what it is at all! Just my own view. I would never expect us to win this event actually, not when we're up against the Russians, the sheer depth they have sometimes is quite frightening!

Actually rugby dreamer I think that what you say in all probability is correct this is why I have said what I have, But (there's always a but!!Lol) Couldn't we use the the threat of the might of russia to up our game, it seems almost as if we go into the meeting knowing we are not going to win, after all when we take on Brazil in international matches we do put in very streong teams to represent our Nation, shouldn't this be the case for all sports?

Flash - in an ideal world, yes it would be! However time scales, athletes preperation etc does not always lend do this being possible I don't think. Whilst that's a shame, I do find it understandable, as I would rather we put in a much better showing at the Worlds. If however we don't perform well there, expect me to be quite grumpy!

Well having coached at all levels for 40 years or more I think I can safely say "More could be done" and leave it at that

Oh and yes I would feel really grumpy also lol

Who have you coached flash?

I think Flash more could be done nation wide in ALL sports, not just Athletics! even someone of no coaching experience such as myself is able to tell that

Still, I am happy with that 4th place, there were still some exciting performances to be taken from it, and since I'm a glass half full person, that's the way I'm going to look at it

Let's not kid ourselves that we were ever capable of winning this competition. In the years we won the mens competition our womens team was nowhere near the Russians and so in a combined gender competition we were never that close to winning. This was even with teams that contained our very top athletes.

I actually think lottery funding has changed the model for UK athletes. Before to make a living you had to compete well on the grand prix throughout the year. Now the focus is far greater on the major championships.

Whilst I appreciate that there are incredible athletes who can perform season round, this is not the norm and generally even they raise their performance at the major games. For everyone else that fraction of a percentage benefit from focussing tightly on the major games could be enough to get them into a final or onto a podium and the Brits are now at least able to take a stab at that.

Many other countries have achieved this in the past through "military" roles for athletes and other non jobs. The current UK approach with lottery funding is merely a transparent way of now giving our athletes the opportunity to focus on the big prize.

I think you are right rugbydreamer, I shall simply give it the credence of a fun weekend out for the athletes to have a great time and try and get a good performance in, I can see how much fun they all have and I know how important it is is helping an athlete shape their future.

I think 'fun weekend' might be simplifying things a little! The impression I got from rugbydreamer's post - and my own - was that it was a stepping stone, to bleed some first time internationals, whilst also allowing some seasoned 'stars' get into a competitive environment in a GBR vest.

Helen Clitheroe spoke of how she was using it to see how a champs 5km is run, as lots of excellent circuit runners struggle in the champs, as they're simply used to having someone lead them out in a fast pace, rather than a tactical race

v

"a stepping stone, to bleed some first time internationals,"

I can live with that, a sort of team event which you are not expected to win and is not too serious but gives athletes international experience.

jjimbojames wrote:I think 'fun weekend' might be simplifying things a little! The impression I got from rugbydreamer's post - and my own - was that it was a stepping stone, to bleed some first time internationals, whilst also allowing some seasoned 'stars' get into a competitive environment in a GBR vest.

Helen Clitheroe spoke of how she was using it to see how a champs 5km is run, as lots of excellent circuit runners struggle in the champs, as they're simply used to having someone lead them out in a fast pace, rather than a tactical race

aye jjimbo that's exactly it

This raises the question now of will the BBC keep covering it given the low level status of the meeting and our NGBs approach to it. Would they be better covering some of the Diamond leagues for example, many of the peformances at these meetings are quite inspiring for the young viewer.

The Beeb do cover the Diamond league's, don't they? I know they're on the red button but I think that's more to do with the time that they are being shown than anything else.

I think it would be a shame if they stopped coverage of competitions like the one on the weekend, as I don't think they show nearly enough as it is, so would hate for them to get rid of it! I think the weekends action was great at showing how youngsters like Perri Shakes-Drayton etc are coming through, and any exposure of athletics on the Beeb is a good thing in my book.