England WC Training Squad

by Adam D Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saracens prop Matt Stevens and Leicester Tigers centre Manusamoa Tuilagi are among the players named in England Team Manager Martin Johnson’s 45-man preliminary training squad for the Rugby World Cup.

All of the 2011 RBS 6 Nations squad are included, while there are call-ups for Stevens, his Saracens teammate Mouritz Botha and Gloucester wing Charlie Sharples, all of whom helped England Saxons retain the Churchill Cup against Canada on Saturday.

Also named are Leicester Tigers pair Thomas Waldrom and Manusamoa Tuilagi – Rugby Players’ Association Player and Aviva Premiership Young Player of the Year respectively – as well as Richard Wigglesworth from champions Saracens.

Others who will spend the coming weeks preparing for the Investec International against Wales at Twickenham Stadium on August 6 are Bath Rugby hooker Lee Mears, Harlequins wing Ugo Monye, and Gloucester Rugby wing James Simpson-Daniel.

Johnson said: “Every one of these players has the chance to be in that final 30 going to New Zealand. The camp is going to be intense and competitive, as you would expect leading up to a World Cup, but all the players are ready for it.

“We have guys such as Lewis Moody, Jonny Wilkinson and Mike Tindall who have been in this situation before but also a lot of players who won’t have experienced a World Cup training camp. It’s now up to all of them to set down their marker over the next 10 weeks before we head to New Zealand.”

England Rugby World Cup training squad
Forwards

Mouritz Botha
George Chuter
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Tom Croft
Louis Deacon
Paul Doran-Jones
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Dylan Hartley
James Haskell
Courtney Lawes
Lee Mears
Lewis Moody
Tom Palmer
Tim Payne
Chris Robshaw
Simon Shaw
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Stevens
Steve Thompson
Thomas Waldrom
David Wilson
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley

Backs

Delon Armitage
Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Danny Care
Mark Cueto
Toby Flood
Riki Flutey
Ben Foden
Shontayne Hape
Charlie Hodgson
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
Joe Simpson
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Mike Tindall
Manusamoa Tuilagi
Richard Wigglesworth
Jonny Wilkinson
Ben Youngs Leicester

source - http://www.rfu.com/News/2011/June/News%20Articles/200611_RWC_training_squad.aspx

Broken down by position, some really irritating choices in there. I’d expect some changes because quite a few of these players have been crocked for a significant amount of the season.

Props:

Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Paul Doran-Jones
Tim Payne (aggghhh!)
Andrew Sheridan
Matt Steven
David Wilson

Hooker:

Dylan Hartley
George Chuter (seriously????)
Lee Mears
Steve Thompson

Second Rows:

Mouritz Botha
Louis Deacon
Courtney Lawes
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw

Flankers:

James Haskell
Hendre Fourie
Tom Croft
Lewis Moody
Chris Robshaw
Tom Wood
Joe Worsley (What the fudge!?!)

No 8:

Nick Easter
Tom Waldrom

Scrum Half

Danny Care
Joe Simpson
Richard Wigglesworth
Ben Youngs

Fly half

Toby Flood
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

Centres

Rikki Flutey
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Manu Tuilagi

Wings

Chris Ashton
Matt Banahan
Mark Cueto
Ugo Monye
Charlie Sharples
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle

Full back

Dellon Armitage
Ben Foden

by nathan Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:39 am

you see what's happened now hobo, we have a discussion on what qualifies to be english instead of a discussion on on the team picked...

by Adam D Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:44 am

well change the thread back on topic then!

Please could everyone go back to the original topic of the people selected.

by welshy824 Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:46 am

Hobo wrote:To be honest, I dont like the guy after his actions on Ashton (who I dont particularly like either!).

I feel he got off lightly and shouldnt be anywhere near the England squad at the moment as punishment.

you see i liked him after doing that to ashton...

ok a bit far but he looks a right talent and i am glad he has decided to play for england and not samoa as that would make wales life even more difficult
he does need to watch his temper as what he did to ashton was impressive but there is no excuse for his actions and the first thing he should do in the england training camp is make sure he keeps his cool

by Adam D Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:56 am

I was impressed with Ashtons jaw mind!

Do you think that Ashton has forgotten about it or do you think first chance next season, he is getting his own back?

I know they shook hands but I dont think I could let someone get away with that.

by nathan Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:57 am

Hobo wrote:I was impressed with Ashtons jaw mind!

Do you think that Ashton has forgotten about it or do you think first chance next season, he is getting his own back?

I know they shook hands but I dont think I could let someone get away with that.

there both professionals so i would hope so. Ashton has had a few people after him last season, i don't understand what he does. Is he just mouthy?

by welshy824 Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:03 am

nathan wrote:i don't understand what he does. Is he just mouthy?

its how he comes across in games, with swan dives etc he is a completely overrated player who scored a few tries against italy and thats it, that is what irritates people. however in interviews he comes across quite well, although slightly cocky due to the fact he is enjoying his job

by Knowsit17 Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:06 am

nathan wrote:
Hobo wrote:I was impressed with Ashtons jaw mind!

Do you think that Ashton has forgotten about it or do you think first chance next season, he is getting his own back?

I know they shook hands but I dont think I could let someone get away with that.

there both professionals so i would hope so. Ashton has had a few people after him last season, i don't understand what he does. Is he just mouthy?

Seen as ventilating arrogance would be my guess, a perception not made lighter by the reputation he somewhat willingly built up around himself with his refusal to leave out the swan-dive

by majesticimperialman Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:27 am

When Barrit did not make the Saxons squad i thought he was straight in the world cup training squad.

Dont understand why Chuter is in to be honest.I thought Bro0wn would of been the second full back under Foden.

Maybe Johnson think it is too early for these players. Or maybe he is just being cautios

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:34 am

Hobo wrote:I was impressed with Ashtons jaw mind!

Do you think that Ashton has forgotten about it or do you think first chance next season, he is getting his own back?

I know they shook hands but I dont think I could let someone get away with that.

He was interviewed with Myler on Sky the week after and had a fair bit of a laugh about it. He won't have forgotten about it, but I don't think it will be a thing with him. He said in the interview that stuff happens on the pitch and that's where it should stay. I think he has a bit of a duck's back regarding such things. I can see him making fun of himself and Tuilagi rather than making an issue out of it.

by Tayto Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:54 am

I cannot for the life of me understand why England go down the route of playing foreign players.
No wonder Luke Narraway has expressed his disgust at Johnson's latest antics.

by Geordie Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:59 am

Waldrom over Crane??? Erm Crane is a FAR more rounded player.

3 of the 4 centres...are non english...Wonderful especially when the likes of Lowe, Allen etc have been outstanding.....

Worsley...and Payne......i just cant understand.

Experience is good when a player is in good form....not when the experienced player is worse than the young less experienced players.....

Im actually VERY dissapointed with this squad....especially with the numbers of journeymen foreginers...who on performance alone should not be ANYWHERE near the squad.....

My hopes in the WC have plummeted.

by Cumbrian Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:20 am

welshy824 wrote:
nathan wrote:i don't understand what he does. Is he just mouthy?

its how he comes across in games, with swan dives etc he is a completely overrated player who scored a few tries against italy and thats it, that is what irritates people. however in interviews he comes across quite well, although slightly cocky due to the fact he is enjoying his job

He's scored 9 tries in 9 international games including three against Australia, you'd be wetting yourself if a Welsh player had that record. He didn't score a 'couple' of tries against Italy, he scored four, the most an English player has ever scored in a single Six nations game. Guess where his two remaining tries came.

This has all come in his first full season of international rugby. Maybe he is a little overrated and at times he can go missing but he is scoring tries and has the potential to get better from here.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Waldrom over Crane??? Erm Crane is a FAR more rounded player.

Waldrom wouldn't be my pick for the England squad, and I would back Crane as a lead future England prospect, but can't agree that "Crane is a FAR more rounded player". There are certain aspects where he is superior (control at the base being a notable one), but he definitely loses out on roundedness as a squad member regarding ability to cover the backrow (which as I suggested in an earlier post is essential if your first choice 8 is a specialist), where as Waldrom is equally effective at blindside. And although there is more to a player than statistics, they are a good guide, showing Waldrom is on a par if not far superior in a number of areas.

Waldrom Crane

23 Matches 11
5 Try assist 1
132 Passes 36
293 Carries 121
1152 Metres carried 305
11 Clean breaks 3
11 Offloads 2
29 Defenders beaten 1
147 Tackles 67
8 Missed tackles 4

by majesticimperialman Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:42 am

What i fail to understand is why in a Rugby World Cup year, do they give players hope that if they play good in the Saxons then they may play them selves into the main Rugby World Cup team.

Players like Brown, Goode,Trinder,Paul Hodgson are not even in the traing squad fffs.

Just what have these players and the likes of Barrit,Allan,Jordon Turner Hall got to do, to be given a chance of getting a place in the senior England team/squad?

by snoopster Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:49 am

While Waldrom looks good looking at some of his stats, for me the reason I think Crane edges it is that he can do everything Waldrom can do well to at least a good standard if not as well as Waldrom but Waldrom struggles far more at what Crane does well... and what Crane does better includes the core skills of a Number 8.
Crane can also cover second row. He's also much more physical than Waldrom and a real leader on the pitch, which are two weak spots England have had this season.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:56 am

I don't think them being in the training squad would matter. Johnson and pretty much everyone else knows what his 30 man squad will be. Short of injury, he doesn't change players lightly.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:07 am

snoopster wrote:for me the reason I think Crane edges it is that he can do everything Waldrom can do well to at least a good standard if not as well as Waldrom

The stats certainly don't back that. As an attacking player Waldrom is streets ahead. He even edges Crane in tackles and missed tackles per match.

Crane can cover 2nd row, but I would never imagine Johnson asking him to do so even if he was in the squad (how often has he done it for Tigers?). Waldrom by comparison is much more effective at blindside.

All immaterial to my mind. Neither will go to the WC.

by Portnoy Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:15 am

Croft will definitely go. No question.

I'd lay your house on it John. Smile

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:32 am

As would I, as long as I had some additional bets accounting for the possibility of him getting injured before then.

by JJB Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:55 am

I'd have:

Payne out and Marler in.
Worsley out and Dowson in.
Tindall out and Allen in.

Banahan is definitely in the squad as a centre first, and a winger second.

It could have been worse I suppose.

by JJB Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:58 am

Oh. And obviously Paice in ahead of Chuter!

by **Notch** Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:59 am

Kiwireddevil wrote:So

1) England
2) USA
3) Ireland
4) SA
5) NZ
6) Trinidad
7) Kenya
8) Samoa
9) Australia
10) Channel Islands

Wow! The England Barbarians thumbsup

International rugby in the age of globalisation eh?

In some ways, the residency laws worry me albeit a number of those players are perfectly entitled to consider England their home and nation of choice.

by nathan Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:06 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Waldrom over Crane??? Erm Crane is a FAR more rounded player.

have you not seen Waldrom's belly!!!

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:14 am

Notch wrote:In some ways, the residency laws worry me albeit a number of those players are perfectly entitled to consider England their home and nation of choice.

As it does me. I'd prefer to require you have citizenship of the country you represent. For naturalised citizenship in the UK that means you have to be resident for 5 years until you are allowed to apply. More importantly the process demonstrates a certain amount of commitment.

by **Notch** Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:27 am

johnpartle wrote:
Notch wrote:In some ways, the residency laws worry me albeit a number of those players are perfectly entitled to consider England their home and nation of choice.

As it does me. I'd prefer to require you have citizenship of the country you represent. For naturalised citizenship in the UK that means you have to be resident for 5 years until you are allowed to apply. More importantly the process demonstrates a certain amount of commitment.

I agree with you on the five years issue, but disagree on citizenship. Because I'm Irish- we don't need the fights! We have two main types of passport in the Irish squad. Best leave it out.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:32 am

Good point, but if the current system can account for residency of both parts, it can't be too difficult to adjust that for citizenship of both parts.

by DaveM Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:41 am

I think the contentious choices (Payne, Worsley, Chuter maybe) are more there for the experience they'll bring to the camp that the young players can learn from, and are unlikely to make the final cut. And for all the criticism usually directed at them, they've been very good servants to English rugby. The only selection I'm really unhappy about is the exclusion of Paice who should be ahead of both Mears and Chuter. TBH we all know pretty much what the squad will be barring maybe a couple of spots (third choice scrum half, utility back).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that's about right - there are some odd selections but they are very unlikely to actually go to the WC. The centres were never going to be particularly inspiring - Hape wasn't going to move from first choice to dropped entirely, Tindall was always nailed on, Banahan is seen as a centre and England wanted to look at a kicking option at 12 which explains Flutey. England have obviously decided that Allen is just too small to be a successful 12 (good AP player but no more), and Barritt has just spent 8 months running into his opposite number and so hasn't made a strong enough case (although this may not be entirely his fault).

It's interesting that Twelvetrees, who I think has only started once at 12 for Leicester in his entire career, has started the last 5 Saxons games at IC and looks the next cab off the rank post-WC. Tiger's will have to play him a lot more next season or he'll certainly walk (he was sounding a bit frustrated for the first time in a recent newspaper interview)

Armitage is lucky, but MJ probably feels some loyalty based on the fact he was virtually the only chink of light at a very dark time for England.

Overall there is a limit to how many young and inexperienced players MJ wants to take to a WC in New Zealand, and whilst we may not agree with all his selections I think that is fair enough.

by robbo277 Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:54 am

Notch, it's even more complicated if you consider that by living in England you get a UK passport, which would surely make you eligible for Scotland and Wales as well, and possibly Ireland (through Northen Ireland)?

To be honest I'm not 100% sure about it, but I would like naturalisation and said as much earlier in the thread. From UK Border Agency: "If you are over 18 and have been living in the United Kingdom for the last five years (or three years if you are married to or a civil partner of a British citizen) you may be able to apply for naturalisation as a British citizen. You may also be able to apply for naturalisation if you or your husband, wife or civil partner is in crown or designated service outside the United Kingdom. Applications for naturalisation are made using application form AN."

Probably about right in terms of qualification periods, and as said it does show a commitment. As long as someone smarter than me manages to clarify the issues about having 2 different passports for 4 rugbying nations (and 2 different passports in the Ireland rugby team) then I think it's workable.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:18 am

Agree with pretty much all those points Dave. That said, on a point of order, I just want to highlight that the idea that "Barritt has just spent 8 months running into his opposite number" is a bit of a public misconception. Comparing him to Allen, he carries the ball a similar amount, does a very similar amount in terms of breaks, offloads and defenders beaten with it, but passes a notable amount more. Apologies for getting statty.

Barritt Allen

23 Matches 20
161 Passes 108
171 Carries 153
9 Clean breaks 11
9 Offloads 10
22 Defenders beaten 23

by DaveM Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:50 am

That's fair enough John. My perception of him though is that he is under instruction to just crash it up, with Goode doing the passing and kicking from second receiver.

I rate Barritt above Allen in terms of international chances in future though.

by johnpartle Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:59 am

I certainly agree that Saracens don't use his abilities to their full extent and prefer his physical presence.

by sad_gimp Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:58 pm

I have to say, I'm glad there are some older hands in the squad. Sure, we have a lot of promising young players....but that's what they are...young players.

WC can do funny things to people and you need the older more experienced heads in there to keep cool in big knockout games. I'd hate for some of our 'new breed' to crack on the big stage and ruin their international careers. Players like Marler who let's not forget have only just completed their first 1st XV premiership season are only going to get better by the next WC.

by Countnefarious Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:05 pm

I hope you don't think it arrogant of me to devote an entire article to my beef with the selections for the England WC training squad. I know it's been overdone (and there's nothing worse than overcooked beef,) but I figured I'd go ahead anyway.

The Forwards
George "shoot me in the head: they've picked him again" Chuter The most anonymous hooker in the premiership: doesn't make many mistakes, and that's about all he's got going for him. That and the fact that he has somehow acquired a vast ammount of international experience over the years. Chuter occasionally grabs hold of someone and rubs his beard on them in a pathetic attempt to come across as a "tough guy." Literally the last man I would have picked. Paice instead.

Tim Payne "in my a#$e!" Do I really need to bother explaining? No I bloody well don't. Mullan or Marler instead

Louis "I do all the dirty work; honest!" Deacon I'm not quite as "foaming at the mouth furious" about this one as the others, but I do see it as a boring selection. I've seen him perform well once for England. Is that really enough? Robson or Day instead

Andrew "me lift heavy things" Sheridan Nobody else seems to mind the inclusion of the overrated, overgrown, oversized foreheaded son of a b1*ch, but I can't see why. A couple of good scrums and some nice sounding weight room stats do not make you a star. Especially when you've spent the whole season injured. My god he is ugly! Mullan or Marler instead

The Backs
Delon "you never know" Armitage He was really good once. Maybe if we keep letting him play for England it'll happen again. Yeah, Brown and Goode are waaaaay better, but why bother paying any attention to form? Besides, they don't smile anywhere near as much, and rumour has it that Mike Brown has the worst temper of any fullback since . . . uhh . . . Oh yeah! Delon Armitage.

Riki "at least he's better than our other Kiwi centre" Flutey He hasn't done much lately: went to France, came back, played for a terrible Wasps side, etc. A few better options out there, but, then again, some of them are English, so they're probably not allowed. Barrett (Yes, I'm a hypocrite) or Allan instead

Richard "I've got a stupid name" Wigglesworth Again, not a horrendous choice, but surely Hodgeson and Dickson are better options. I think you could come up with a great, dirty anagram of Dickson, Wigglesworth, and Hodgeson. I got up to "wiggle the dick good", and got fed up with it . . . now I hate the three of them and hope they all die in a bizarre and painful dick wiggling accident.

Well, that's about it. Not too many complaints when you really think about it, so maybe things are headed in the right direction. If you must comment, please TRY not to let this descend into an argument about nationality. It's rather boring, and chances are I'll end up agreeing with you, and you wouldn't want that now would you? devil

by **Biltong** Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:22 pm

Well beef can be very tasty, depending of course on how you prepare it.

My favourite method is over some hot coals turned only twice, medium rare, with lemon to tenderise the meat and some spices.

by Guest Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:25 pm

Not sure of my opinion on England selection, but that was a great read first thing in the morning! Cheered me up for the day!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:39 pm

Count, great post

. We do already have a debate going on the England squad selection so I'm going to merge the 2 - I think you've added to it quite nicely Smile

K

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Bit gutted for Tom Johnson - great season for the Chiefs, looked comfortable for the Saxons, but Worsley's experience has been preferred. Can't see Worsley making the final 30, so it's not really a selection that I understand. A few others can count themselves lucky to be in there, but the count has done done a good job on airing my concerns!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:38 pm

Apparently the thinking is that the likes of Johnson Narraway and Goode were never going to tour anyway ( barring injuries) in which cas ethey wanted guys with experience playing with the othe rmebers of the squad and of what it takes to go to a world cup (Worsley) or with a genuinly impressive work ethic which has come from an upbringing in a different rugby culture (Botha, Waldrom, Flutey etc) ... again they may well not tour but it throws the gauntlet down to the second string England gusy and the under 20's as to just what they need to be doing to make the squad, work work work...simply playing a good season of rugby isnt enough but once you are in youre relativly secure so long as you keep the attitude.
I have some symptayhy because if you look at rugby here 10 years ago we were ahead of the game in prepration professionalism and attitude, and the SH guys are clearly bought up witha different kind of work ethic where natural ability alone is not enough (hi Danny!). Part of the reason MJ was bought in in the first place was because he was seen as someone who would lay down the law in that area and demand more from the players.

What the hell Armitage is in there Im still not sure though. Playing games with the 45 is one thing, but I cant see how it can be whittled down to a final squad without glaring gaps ..most notably cover at 8 and 15. The centers were always going to be uninspiring.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:34 pm

I've already posted my thoughts on the those players I consider lucky to make it, but if I'm narrowing down to one, I have to say the basis on which Tim Payne is selected is particularly flimsy. He isn't mobile, he has poor hands and his scrummaging abilities are average at best. His experience at international level has been largely having his face pushed into the mud as his side of the scrum collapses once more. Whereas I can see how someone like Shaw could still bring something to the table despite not being on any sort of form, with Payne I just don'g get it. He's nothing more than a journeyman, and the likes of Mullan and Marler are already far better players with a lot more promise.

by snoopster Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:50 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:His experience at international level has been largely having his face pushed into the mud as his side of the scrum collapses once more.

So you are saying he will be useful in the training squad for them practising for the chance England play the Aussies with his international experience of the Aussie scrummaging position? Wink

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:04 pm

johnpartle wrote:I certainly agree that Saracens don't use his abilities to their full extent and prefer his physical presence.

And what would you expect England to do with him? Given that their preferred centers have been Hape, Tindall, and Banahan!

England are looking for their centers to be offloading defender drawing battering rams with the outside backs running either side of them to make the break off that. It may or may not work, it has done but then teams are surely getting wise to Englands style now...certainly Ireland had it sussed.

They have picked the guys they think can help them play the way they want to. Other peopel think England should play with more silky exciteing individual try scorers in the centers to make the breaks themselves. They may or may not be right. Englan dalso may or may not be right in the personel they have selected to do the job, others may argue that Barrit and Allen or even JTH would do a better job.

Im far more upset by Armitage and the lack of any other cover for Foden beyond Cueto whos a first choice wing coming back from a long ban who rarely plays 15 now.

by dummy_half Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:07 pm

Snoopster
Harsh but funny...

As others have said, I think there ar a few selections in the large squad who are there specifically to do a job during the training camp, and perhaps to act as injury back-ups at short notice. Certainly seems to be the best reason for the likes of Payne and Worsley being included - they know the systems and can be trusted to come in at the drop of a hat and do an adequate job. I'd be less happy if we were talking about calling in uncapped players for this role.

I'm not happy with Waldrom's inclusion, but it is within the rules and he has had a big impact at club level this year.

by Rugby Uberlord Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:42 pm

Will Tuilagi be on the plane, or at least play a part in the summer do you think?

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:56 pm

In my view Waldrom ahead of Crane, whilst it wouldn't have been my pick, does have some reasoning. Easter is the first choice 8, a good solid number 8 that gives you hard yards and control at the base. Crane isn't much contrast to that and does very much the same sort of thing. Waldrom on the other hand is more of a maverick, and is most effective carrying with ball in hand. It may well be that in this case MJ wanted a contrast in options.

My own view is that Crane should have gone. He finished the season the better of the two and is in good form.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:02 pm

As for Tuilagi, I'm guessing that in MJ's book he's behind Hape, Flutey, Tindall and Banahan at centre, and I'd be surprised if MJ were to take 5 centres, even if Banahan is legitimate cover for the wing.

You'd expect 14 backs to get picked typically - 3 SH, 3 FH, 4 C, 2 W and 2 FB.

You could gamble and assume Foden could cover 9 if needed, but hardly ideal to take your best back from the position in which he's doing so much damage. Similarly you could treat Cueto as cover at 15, Banahan as a winger and free up space for Tuilagi that way, but it bascially means Foden will be playing every game.

The other option would have been not to take Charlie Hodgson, and take Alex Goode as the second 15, but that ship has sailed.

My guess is that Tuilagi will miss the cut.

by dummy_half Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:09 pm

FES
"My guess is that Tuilagi will miss the cut.."

I think that's probable, unless he really shines in the training camp and makes Tindall look silly.

I'm not happy with relying on Bananaman and other wingers to be the only cover for outside centre if (when) Tinds gets injured, but that's the sort of thing that is always an issue with a 30 man squad.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:17 pm

I suspect that Armitage will be going as well as potential cover at 13, and Hape has played there before with Bath, but I agree that neither are ideal.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:18 pm

Pretty much agree with you Fex,

Tuilagi probably will miss the cut but he does cover 12, 13 and wing at a push (where he played in the Tigers victory over South Africa)

But Banahan, Tindall and Hape are dead certs to go. I suspect if there is a 4th center it would be Flutey despite him being the least flexible of the options, he at least offers something a bit different.
To be honest they could get away with 3 centers (counting Banahan as one), Banahan and Hape have both played 12 and Flood has starting international caps there ..Wilkinson played there a lot for his club and sometimes as cover in internationals. Armitage is almost certain to go due to the lack of fullback options in the 45, hes another emergency center option.

Tuilagis going to have to really stand out in practise and the warm ups to have a chance of going.

by robbo277 Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:23 pm

If we're taking 4 centres I would leave Flutey out. Flood and Wilkinson can both cover 12 in an emergancy.

Then something along the lines of:
Banahan, Hape, Tindall, Tuilagi
Ashton, Cueto, Simpson-Daniel
Foden

I refuse to pick Flutey and Armitage. Their form has been terrible and, short of an injuries I wouldn't pick either of them.

by On-the-Soar Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:47 pm

Kiwireddevil

There's a thin line between adding spice to a debate and wumming. I agree with the other posters who feel Hobo has overstepped the mark here.

Dragging up the old 'Manu is a Samoan' article feels like very, very old news and adds nothing to this discussion. The fact that the context, background and outcome (i.e. all the important detail!) were not included gives it a faint whiff of jingoism IMHO.

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