Mass U20 JWC exodus

RUGBY: THE IRFU is poised to withdraw the Ireland Under-20 team from the Junior World Championship from next year because of issues over player welfare and finance.

The development comes in a week when Ireland are poised for their best finish in the fledgling competition which has been won in each of its three years by New Zealand.

The Baby Blacks have again reached the semi-finals, while Ireland face South Africa tomorrow in Padua in a fifth place semi-final. Ireland’s best finish was eighth two years in Japan, a position they will equal even if they lose to the Baby Boks and to the losers of the other semi-final between Wales and Fiji.

The IRFU decision to withdraw the team from next year’s competition centre largely around player welfare. Cost is also believed to play a part, although the IRB cover flights and hotel expenses for each participating country.

The IRB are likely to put pressure on the IRFU to reconsider their position but sources in the Union say the decision has already been made. It is also believed Wales and Scotland may consider following Ireland’s lead.

The IRFU did not respond to a query on the issue yesterday.

The timing of the competition and the number of games – five in 17 days – are believed to be the primary concerns.

Most of the Irish squad are in provincial academies and squads and should be coming off downtime and starting pre-season when the Junior World Championship is held each year.

Ireland’s proposed withdrawal may see a reversal of provinces having first call over Under-20 players during the Six Nations.

Earlier this year coach Mike Ruddock had to plan without several first-team players who were called up by the provinces to cover for players away on Six Nations duty.

A number of other teams, including USA, Canada and Samoa, who participated in the inaugural Junior World Championship, pulled out in the past few years because of the cost factor but Ireland’s withdrawal would be the first from a leading rugby country. As such the IRB is likely to mount pressure on Ireland to reconsider.

Ireland’s win over Scotland on Friday night, following earlier pool losses to England and South Africa, was welcomed as it would let Ireland achieve a better seeding for next year’s competition, but that now looks like being immaterial.

maestegmafia wrote:You mean return the Age to 21. As it was in its original U21 Rugby World Cup pre 2008.

AlynDavies wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:You mean return the Age to 21. As it was in its original U21 Rugby World Cup pre 2008.

Yes, a World Cup every year does seem a bit over the top.

AlynDavies wrote:Yes, a World Cup every year does seem a bit over the top.

DaveM wrote:"Is it right to risk the careers of those few players in such a punishing schedule where they especially will be trying extra hard to make up for deficiencies elsewhere? Being blown away as cannon fodder for the big teams to get their range right for the later stages doesn't teach them anything they don't already know. Perhaps facing teams they aren't physically ready for is actually bad for them psychologically?"
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But where is this evidence of the harm? And surely the same logic appies to lots of sides with the senior WC?

The Great Aukster wrote:A good big un beats a good little un.

Countries with small player pools will inevitably be uncompetitive at this level, so what development benefit do they gain from the competition? That it's better to find out early how to take a beating?

Ireland always have a few outstanding prospects, but the rest of the team are makeweights. Is it right to risk the careers of those few players in such a punishing schedule where they especially will be trying extra hard to make up for deficiencies elsewhere? Being blown away as cannon fodder for the big teams to get their range right for the later stages doesn't teach them anything they don't already know. Perhaps facing teams they aren't physically ready for is actually bad for them psychologically?

The tournament needs a rethink if it is to survive, and increasing the squad size simply increases the costs and the superiority of those countries with plenty of good quality players to choose from. Staging the tournament immediately after the 6N might help and making it a purely knock-out competition with a 16 team seeded draw would reduce the number of games.

As it is the IRFU are right to pull the plug.

Notch wrote:Dave, we are talking about certain players playing for their provinces and club all season, going to the JWC and playing then having a really short break and starting pre-season. For players to be at their best, the body and mind need a rest in the close season. Many players aren't getting that

AlynDavies wrote:I agree with Ireland, everything we bloody do in the world game is at the conveniance of the southern hemisphere teams. We have far more Unions in Europe and yet bend over backwards for the minority.
Why don't we hold the World Cup in their off season? and let our players get a rest for a change?

What exactly have our boys learned this year? their better than Italy and Argentina but worse than New Zealand.
You could of taken an educated guess at that before the competition.
Wales should also scrap it's sevens teams, name me one good player we have produced from it despite spending a fortune on sending them jollying around the World all year?

DaveM wrote:Player welfare? I presume the IRFU have evidence that u20's players suffer then. Although you'd have thought every other nation would have the same evidence. I certainly can't remember any particular injury problems with the England players.

Maybe it's more to do with Ireland's poor results at the JWC?

DaveM wrote:But where is this evidence of the harm? And surely the same logic appies to lots of sides with the senior WC?

johnpartle wrote:Given that the IRB pays for flights and hotel costs for the tournament, enlarging squad sizes won't increase the cost to the countries that much.

nganboy wrote:What a bleeding moan that post was.
First NH have most of the votes so you guys get whatever you want if you can agree.
2nd If it were held in our off season you would go on about your team being underprepared or overtired
3rd What did you learn from the last 6Ns or the last bunch of AIs exactly the same
4th Scrapping the National 15 team would save more money. At least the 7s team won something.

Note - I love and respect Welsh rugby just hate the moaning.

The Great Aukster wrote:

DaveM wrote:But where is this evidence of the harm? And surely the same logic appies to lots of sides with the senior WC?

The IRFU is considering withdrawal with one of their reasons being player welfare. They obviously consider this to be an issue based on their evidence.

DaveM wrote:Yes, and I'm just wondering what this evidence is. I don't think there is anything particularly unique about the strain placed on young Irish players compared to other nations. If the IRFU are concerned about players who are regularly involved with their province then they simply shouldn't pick them, like the RFU didn't with Manu Tuilagi.

I wonder if the IRFU are just fed up with never progressing in the tournament.

DaveM wrote:This would be respectable, as Ireland only have a small playing pool and construct their senior team from a number of such cohorts.

But player welfare? Don't buy it.

DaveM wrote:So a province could be missing a senior player, but the returning junior back-up isn't ready through fatigue (or injured).
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Well either the JWC is causing a lot of injuries, which should be a concern for every nation whether the young players are particularly needed in September or not, or it isn't. That's why I'm wondering about evidence.

And fatigue? If a 19 year old athlete is still knackered in September following a mid-June tournament then I'd suggest they aren't cut out for professional sport. Owen Farrell played ever minute of the last couple of months games for Sarries and will certainly be required in the autumn, but I don't hear Sarries whining.

I'm going with either cost-cutting or a decision that Ireland can't produce a cohort of players who can compete with England, France and the SH and that too many defeats is hurting player development. This would be respectable, as Ireland only have a small playing pool and construct their senior team from a number of such cohorts.

But player welfare? Don't buy it.

The Great Aukster wrote:Or perhaps other nations don't want to raise the issue because they have enough club v country rows without another one? In Ireland there aren't Province v Country rows because the IRFU control them both.

I'm interested to know what evidence you have to support your suggestion that "Players are far more likely to get injured in AP games"?

johnpartle wrote:Do you not think that AP, Pro12 & HC matches against bigger, stronger, older players, a number of whom are senior internationals would be higher intensity matches and more likely to result in young players getting injured?

The Great Aukster wrote:The pro leagues unquestionably have more experienced and more physical players. However there aren't the physical mismatches between whole teams that appear in the JWC, so a young player has got plenty of older big guys on his side as well. A young guy coming in can be slowly introduced to that environment off the bench to acclimatise over a number of games spread over weeks. He won't be dropped in the deep end unless the coaching staff think he can cope with the physicality, whereas at International level the coaches can only pick whomever is available from a small player pool irrespective of how ready they are.
In the pro leagues there is no requirement for any team to play 5 games in 17 days either.

johnpartle wrote:I can see Notch's point that players could do with a few weeks to repose between seasons (given they have been playing when others haven't, are we sure they aren't given some time off when preseason fitness is the focus?), but I don't buy that the physicality of the tournament is beyond the players or that they are more likely to be injured than when they are playing and training with senior players at their clubs.