Latest Welsh Exodus

This morning I read of more Welsh players leaving for France with Lydiate set to announce and speculation over Biggar too. I posted on another thread that the talent drain was serious for the future of professional rugby in Wales but I'm still amazed by the number of my fellow countrymen that have their heads in the sand over this issue and who are convinced that there is no problem.

The National team will not prosper if regional professional rugby becomes second rate (arguably it is all ready). If we don't have competitive professional rugby in Wales the grass roots game will die too..

It is beyond belief that the WRU and Regions aren't working together to solve the problem.

Lydiate!!!

Biggars a different ball game, but you can't blame these guys for wanting to leave, playing in empty stadiums, for regions they don't give a crap about, being payed poorly, and with poor quality foreign players!!!

I watched the Gareth Thomas show the other day and he was explaining how proud he was to play for the famous bridgend, how all he wanted was to play for the club he loves and got lost on purpose on his way to his first international training camp because he just wanted to play for bridgend and didn't think he was good enough for wales.

Compare that to todays elite players who turn up to the Dragons training camps with Ospreys, Tolouse, Sale, Leicester, even England and Ireland shirts!!! It is just crazy, and the WRU care not a jot as long as the p[rofits keep rolling in!!

With regards Lydiate and Faletau then the Dragons won't be abale to afford to renew their contracts so I think like most Dragon fans I have accepted the inevitable.

With regards to Biggar then if he keeps getting ignored by the selectors part of him will be thinking well wny not take the money, staying in Wales is not getting me anywhere.

thebluesmancometh wrote: Compare that to todays elite players who turn up to the Dragons training camps with Ospreys, Tolouse, Sale, Leicester, even England and Ireland shirts!!!

Really?

Especially when Phillips and Jenkins can get reselected over and over without performing while in France, oh and Hook!!!

LT

Thats just the tip of the iceberg mate, I could name another dozen shirts!! Even at the Academy Ive seen numerous players rock up in other clubs shirts!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Especially when Phillips and Jenkins can get reselected over and over without performing while in France, oh and Hook!!!

Hook is doing well. Jenkins is not performing because he is not on the field most of the time. Phillips has been poor, but he was poor for the O's too in his last spell there.

Could be a great move for Biggar - as it was for Wellies.

Hook is doing well at 10 though, then he is thrown in at centre or FB cover WTF????!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!

Jenkins can't replace Sheridan in the Toulon team, who can't make the England team.

Would be a great move for Biggar (depending on club)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Hook is doing well at 10 though, then he is thrown in at centre or FB cover WTF????!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!

Jenkins can't replace Sheridan in the Toulon team, who can't make the England team.

Would be a great move for Biggar (depending on club)

Bluesman, agree with all those points. I would not play Hook anywhere except 10. Toulon preferring to Sheridan to Melon is probably a question of style - they want raw power, rather than all-round rugby nous. It's a actually a surprise he's out in the cold for England as he is an intimidating figure.

He is but he's totally useless around the park, the T14 can get away with that because they are all of a similar mindset, just brute force up front and allow the 10 to kick everything, but on the international stage against the best I think he'd be shown lacking again.

He is great at what he does, sadly that is only one thing.

Could it be that the HC revision on the horizon is a big factor in their decisions to leave Wales? If only the top 6 teams in the Pro12 get to play in the HC it may be that only 2 Welsh regions make it some years.

The bigwigs at Wales' disgrace of a Union will be retired in their beach houses while the Welsh regions play at a standard equal to Welsh premiership.

But don't worry, the debt was paid off 3 years before it had to be. Yay.

I hope the Wallabies stuff us.

EG4E

I'd say that point is a very small part of the pie too, the English and French hold the HC to ransom every few years and it's only a matter of time before the Celt nations suffer for it.

But again it doesn't help with all the issues in Wales, we are an Irishman meeting a PRL rep away from becoming a tier 2 nation with Scotland and Italy.

englandglory4ever wrote:Could it be that the HC revision on the horizon is a big factor in their decisions to leave Wales? If only the top 6 teams in the Pro12 get to play in the HC it may be that only 2 Welsh regions make it some years.

it could easily be none.

thebluesmancometh wrote:EG4E

I'd say that point is a very small part of the pie too, the English and French hold the HC to ransom every few years and it's only a matter of time before the Celt nations suffer for it.

But again it doesn't help with all the issues in Wales, we are an Irishman meeting a PRL rep away from becoming a tier 2 nation with Scotland and Italy.

the bluesmancometh it's easy to blame England and France. Ultimately this stops you looking at the bigger picture - as a whole the regions are not performing on and off the pitch.

Wales is a rugby mad country -it's pretty obvious when the Welsh international side plays. You need to get those people who get whipped into a frenzy when Wales play interested in the regions.

You don't get many Irish moving abroad do you?

With only 4 clubs you can concentrate more effort.

beshocked

I don't think youve quite got my take on welsh rugby mate, the blame in this instance on France and England holding the HC to ransom every few years (which they do) is such a small part of the pie, and bottom of the list of reasons why the game is dying in Wales.

beshocked wrote:

Wales is a rugby mad country -it's pretty obvious when the Welsh international side plays. You need to get those people who get whipped into a frenzy when Wales play interested in the regions.

You can't get those people interested in the regions. The people interested in the regions are rugby fans. The people interested in the national game are interested in beer, shagging and cowboy hats.

Well technically norwich I'd say that includes rugby fans too

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well technically norwich I'd say that includes rugby fans too

I work with tens of "welsh rugby fans". They all went on the urine on saturday to celebrate a Wales international.

When I asked them what they thought of the regions chances in the LV Cup that weekend, to a man - none of them knew the regions were playing.

This is what the "average welsh rugby fan" is all about. Its the target market for the Western Mail - the type that believes everything they see in the welsh media. The type that have not got a clue about rugby outside "Jamie", "Mike", and "Hookie"

That is certainly not a typical welsh fan, maybe a typical armchair fan, or MS goer, the kind of people the WRU want and need but a typical fan no chance!!!

What you have to remember is the LV is a pthetic excuse of a comp that has no exposure in wales except to those closely linked to the regions (not many)

It is basically a chance for academy players to get gametime against far stronger English clubs, and why it's run 12 v 4 is hardly known to many so it's definately more of an English invitational cup!!!

The brit and Ire cup goes down far better in wales, a chance to see the famous prem teams in battle for a half meaningful game!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:That is certainly not a typical welsh fan, maybe a typical armchair fan, or MS goer, the kind of people the WRU want and need but a typical fan no chance!!!

!

I'm afraid there are far more of these cowboy hat wearers than proper rugby fans in Wales. The reasons for that have been done to death.

But the proper rugby fans are now beginning to get shafted season after season, by watching 2nd team dross week in week out that they pay hard eared cash for.

samuraidragon wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Hook is doing well at 10 though, then he is thrown in at centre or FB cover WTF????!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!

Jenkins can't replace Sheridan in the Toulon team, who can't make the England team.

Would be a great move for Biggar (depending on club)

Bluesman, agree with all those points. I would not play Hook anywhere except 10. Toulon preferring to Sheridan to Melon is probably a question of style - they want raw power, rather than all-round rugby nous. It's a actually a surprise he's out in the cold for England as he is an intimidating figure.

yep agree 100% with SamuraiDragon here. its Toulon and Laporte natural preference for sheer strengh againts mobility and thats why they like Sheridan but also players like Shaw. Sheridan is also hugely respected in France and he's quite scary as well.

would be easier for Biggar to move to France than Lydiate obviously (Biggar was already wanted by racing last year and there isnt exactly a shortage of backrowers here).

Chunky

Your 10 workmates hardly compare to work done week in week out with clubs and regions in wales.

Your right that rugby fans are shafted year on year, but they are still there, maybe not on the regional terraces but prem teams like Ponty and Neath are going well and local clubs now have a much larger support than ever before, hence the reason for a new division of senior rugby in Wales!!!

It's tantamount to saying every English fan is the prawn sandwhich brigade, doesn't turn out for the 2nd half till 15 mins in and only loves a double header at Wembley... Garbage!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chunky

Your 10 workmates hardly compare to work done week in week out with clubs and regions in wales.

Your right that rugby fans are shafted year on year, but they are still there, maybe not on the regional terraces but prem teams like Ponty and Neath are going well and local clubs now have a much larger support than ever before, hence the reason for a new division of senior rugby in Wales!!!

Neath are going well? Explain how they are going well to me.

It's tantamount to saying every English fan is the prawn sandwhich brigade, doesn't turn out for the 2nd half till 15 mins in and only loves a double header at Wembley... Garbage!!

It's a fair comparison in my opinion. I'd love to see how much money and time the (MAJORITY OF) fans at the Millennium stadium put in to the pro game every year. My guess is a £50 ticket and 80 minutes.

Its not just a Welsh thing, I have been to Twickenham and Murrayfield regulalry for the past 30yrs and I have noticed even in these places that increasingly there are more 'social' rugby fans then real fans.

Being ex Forces I have spent a lot of time working all over the UK and the amount of people that just jump on the band wagon (especially in the 90s) because England had again stuffed Wales but when you asked them to go and watch a club game they had no interest whatsoever

Whocares, how would you assess the form of our Welsh contingent in France this season? We have Charteris, Byrne, Hook, Phillips, Brew and Jenkins there already. That's quite a large group, and likely to get bigger, so we Welsh fans are going to need to follow French club rugby much more closely.

I don't get to see the matches on a regular basis, though I have caught a few and seen some highlights. They are generally very entertaining with high skill levels and intensity even among the lesser teams.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Its not just a Welsh thing, I have been to Twickenham and Murrayfield regulalry for the past 30yrs and I have noticed even in these places that increasingly there are more 'social' rugby fans then real fans.

Being ex Forces I have spent a lot of time working all over the UK and the amount of people that just jump on the band wagon (especially in the 90s) because England had again stuffed Wales but when you asked them to go and watch a club game they had no interest whatsoever

To be fair Bedford, I have been following Welsh rugby for 40+ years and have no interest in the LV.

Chunky

Neath attendances as Ponty's are rising, and are one of the best supported teams in the prem despite huge financial, and regional problems!!

Don't change the goalposts now, you werent talking about just MS attendies, you claimed the average rugby fan is a non fan. Most MS fans are social fans, the ones the WRU work towards for the record profits theyre making, but the average rugby fan is certainly not a MS fan!!

From what I have heard read Charteris, Byrne and Brew have been doing well, and the other two should be in the Welsh squad as well ahead of Williams and Robinson IMO

thebluesmancometh wrote:Chunky

Neath attendances as Ponty's are rising, and are one of the best supported teams in the prem despite huge financial, and regional problems!!

Don't change the goalposts now, you werent talking about just MS attendies, you claimed the average rugby fan is a non fan. Most MS fans are social fans, the ones the WRU work towards for the record profits theyre making, but the average rugby fan is certainly not a MS fan!!

I'm talking about Neath's performances:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777221.stm

We disagree about the average Welsh rugby fan then.

Chunky Norwich's point is true though. This is my point though. You need to get these "Welsh rugby" fans to get excited about the regions.

One of my mate's who is Welsh is immensely passionate about the Welsh national side but couldn't care less about the regions. Geographically his side is the Dragons but he feels no affiliation to them.

The WRU need to work with the regions to change this.

bedfordwelsh wrote:From what I have heard read Charteris, Byrne and Brew have been doing well, and the other two should be in the Welsh squad as well ahead of Williams and Robinson IMO

The Charteris situation is a bad joke. The WRU did a deal with Perpignan so he can play against Oz outside of the window. Then Brad Davies gets injured. Wales have a shortage of locks - for a game insode the window!

The Union is a disgrace and makes a mockery of IRB laws, tantamount to bringing the game into disrepute.

What a joke.

beshocked

Now that is the point, noone gives a rat about a region created against the publics will using imaginary lines.

I am Cardiff through and through, hold a season ticket to both them and the Dragons and with my head give my all, however the heart is a different thing, it wants what it wants, and the heart of welsh rugby doesn't want regions!!

Chunky

Why would we be discussing Neaths performances when referring to fan base? If Neath were playing well with a big fanbase it'd be relevant, but the fact they aren't kinda proves my point.

Everything the WRU is a joke, on the welsh rugby public!!!

But I must point out who else is playing in december this year??

from the few games I saw I would say that :
- hook has been consistently good since the start of the season, not always fantastic but managing well the game as flyhalf. USAP playing also a better rugby brand than last year helps as well.
- charteris has progressed and doing very well at the moment (at least his last game was a very good performance, specially in the loose with some good offloads)
- Byrne improved from last year (defensively) and took the ASM 15 shirt from buttin which says a lot. he's solid and his kick is quite an asset.
- Phillips has been average in a very average team (I tend to avoid watching bayonne games so dont take my words for granted)
- Brew was the hype of the start of the season but like his team hasnt been in the spotlight recently (credit to him though is that Biarritz doesnt really play a very offensive game so its hardly his fault if he doesnt score a try every game)
- Jenkins doesnt play much so cant judge him (the only time I saw it was for the blues game I reckon)

thebluesmancometh wrote:

But I must point out who else is playing in december this year??

There is another home union playing in Decemebr this year. But that home union compensates its ckubs by a fair amount for player release.

Well technically so does the WRU, it's just a flat seasonal funding rate though, for all regions as oppoased to individual players.

who cares

Hook has been solid, and is running the Perp backline well enough don't you think?

Charteris has had 1 or 2 good games but I don't think he's got better.

Byrnes boot is one of CA best weapons that has never been used effectively for Wales!!!

Phillips has been phillips, Jenkins has been a bench warmer.

Brew I think has been caught up in a lot of fan hype, they seem to love him for being eager fast and strong, and with Biaritz gameplan he looks like he's better than he is.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well technically so does the WRU, it's just a flat seasonal funding rate though, for all regions as oppoased to individual players.

who cares

Ah right. Sorry, I thought I was debating with someone who gave a stuff about the future of profesisonal rugby in Wales. My mistake.

Hook has been solid, and is running the Perp backline well enough don't you think?

Charteris has had 1 or 2 good games but I don't think he's got better.

Byrnes boot is one of CA best weapons that has never been used effectively for Wales!!!

Phillips has been phillips, Jenkins has been a bench warmer.

Brew I think has been caught up in a lot of fan hype, they seem to love him for being eager fast and strong, and with Biaritz gameplan he looks like he's better than he is.

Yeah, they're all brill, and everything is rosy.

There is too much emphasis on internationals in Wales. This is to detriment to the Welsh club/regions.

Ospreys should be building on their success in the Pro12. They have been very successful yet this does not reflect in crowd numbers.

A plan for the future needs to be put in place.

It's pretty obvious - strong clubs/regions will help the development of the international side.

whocares wrote:from the few games I saw I would say that :
- hook has been consistently good since the start of the season, not always fantastic but managing well the game as flyhalf. USAP playing also a better rugby brand than last year helps as well.
- charteris has progressed and doing very well at the moment (at least his last game was a very good performance, specially in the loose with some good offloads)
- Byrne improved from last year (defensively) and took the ASM 15 shirt from buttin which says a lot. he's solid and his kick is quite an asset.
- Phillips has been average in a very average team (I tend to avoid watching bayonne games so dont take my words for granted)
- Brew was the hype of the start of the season but like his team hasnt been in the spotlight recently (credit to him though is that Biarritz doesnt really play a very offensive game so its hardly his fault if he doesnt score a try every game)
- Jenkins doesnt play much so cant judge him (the only time I saw it was for the blues game I reckon)

Thanks for those comments. From a Welsh perspective, it's disappointing Jenkins is not getting more game-time. Looks like he chose the wrong club.

beshocked wrote:There is too much emphasis on internationals in Wales. This is to detriment to the Welsh club/regions.

Ospreys should be building on their success in the Pro12. They have been very successful yet this does not reflect in crowd numbers.

A plan for the future needs to be put in place.

It's pretty obvious - strong clubs/regions will help the development of the international side.

well said. Pity the men at the top just care about the current account of the WRU.

Chunky

You cheeky monkey, whocares is a name!!! And don't I say that players aren't playing that well in France?!?!

beshocked

The WRU are boasting record profits, payed loans back years early, the regional game offers nothing to them, they earn from the MS and brand WRU!!!

The foundations of the NT are the WRU run academies at the regions, the regions can go under if they like as long as the WRU keep the 4 academies alive theyre set for brand WRU faces for marketing!!!

The way the game is going - Wales will have the same setup as Argentina in 5 years time. A few semi pro clubs ina worthless doemstic competition. But no professional regions to speak of. All our players will be contracted to big teams in France and England - and training will be done around their schedules.

Very few people seem to care that this is swiftly becoming a reality.

Is it the idea of regions Welsh people have a problem with or how the regions were set up?

our??

5 minutes ago you worked with welshys, now you are one???

thebluesmancometh wrote:our??

5 minutes ago you worked with welshys, now you are one???

??? Yes.

Where did I say I wasn't?

prof

All of the above.

The regions do not exist, Gwent aside!!!

If the English system changed and suddenly you were told to support the london generic colours, or the northern animals how easily could you jump on board? Then what if you were told it doesn't matter what you thought because your kids will love it and fill the stadium in 10 years.

Then of the 5 areas set up the west area Bristol., Somerset Dorset say were left to rot and wound up and told to support london generic colours!!

How good a place would english rugby be in after that?!

Also include infighting from money men who refuse to join with anyone and of the 50 million people (near 3 in Wales) one town say Manchester with 1 mill (50000 Llanelli) got to be stand alone, was bankrolled to survive by the RFU and had a new stadium bought for them?!

Please forgive my figures.

By your use of the terms 'you' and your working with rugby fans etc, just got the impression you werent a 'we'. My bad if you are.

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Please forgive my figures.

And the rest of it....due to it being boll0cks.

Which part Chunky???

The part about fan alienation, a section going under, the 10 year plan to bread new fans, the fact regions don't exist, maybe the town of Llanelli of 50 000 people deserve to represent a 1/4 of a country of millions, maybe our branding was excellent first up???

Or are the regions working for you?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Which part Chunky???

The part about fan alienation, a section going under, the 10 year plan to bread new fans, the fact regions don't exist, maybe the town of Llanelli of 50 000 people deserve to represent a 1/4 of a country of millions, maybe our branding was excellent first up???

Or are the regions working for you?

Well lets start with Llanelli being "bankrolled to survive" and "had a new stadium bought for them" - that's actually libellous what you've written there. It's so innaccurate that you clearly seem to have some sort of agenda.

And Gwent being the only region? I think you'll find that the Ospreys are probably the only NEW region as from 2003.

Fan alienation is just an opinion. It doesn't tell the whole story - how about attendances at certain regions increasing year on year since 2003?