Psychological Games

John McEnroe was recently asked how he would approach playing Nadal. His answer was that he would try to interrupt Nadal's routines. He suggested:
- bumping into him at the changeover or making Nadal go first (Nadal apparently likes his opponent to sit down first?).
- knocking over his water bottles after the warm up.
- Let Nadal go through his long service routine and, just as he about to serve, say you are not ready from the receiver's end and make him do it again.

It made me wonder, can anyone think of instances where people have tried this against Nadal? Or can anyone think of players who have used these psychological tricks against anyone else? Have they been effective?

It also got me thinking that I can recall Federer losing his cool with Djokovic over his ball-bouncing before a serve and Del Potro over late changes. Do you think these were done deliberately to wind Federer up?

It made me wonder, can anyone think of instances where people have tried this against Nadal? Or can anyone think of players who have used these psychological tricks against anyone else? Have they been effective?
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It could be effective to some extend but not popular with the sponsors. Those top players earn most of their money with their racquet, clothing sponsors and you cannot carry a bad image, especially against a popular player like Nadal.

Look at the way Federer is happy to tell the referee about Djoko's long bouncing habit but woudl not do it against Rafa (who takes longer) cause they both have Nike as their main sponsor.

Plus there is the concentration effect. Is it going to unsettle Rafa more than the guy who actually disrupts his rhythm? especially if the crowd starts to whistle and take side for Rafa?

McEnroe is the perfect case in hand to show that all his outbursts prevented him to win more slams than he wouldhave been had he stayed focused.

The way to beat Rafa is not by messing around with his little routine but by getting as fit as him. THat's what Djoko did and Murray is almost there.

Tenez

McEnroe now admits that his "outbursts" were deliberately
thrown to cause disruption to his opponent !

Tenez wrote:Plus there is the concentration effect. Is it going to unsettle Rafa more than the guy who actually disrupts his rhythm? especially if the crowd starts to whistle and take side for Rafa?

That was my first thought too and, yes, I think knocking over his water bottles might be frowned upon! But I thought the service suggestion might not be a bad idea and the changeover idea is so subtle, I'm not sure who would pick up on it.

And going back to the Federer incidents, when Djokovic and Del Potro saw they were getting under his skin and the umpire wasn't stopping them, surely they'd be crazy to stop doing it?

Tenez wrote:The way to beat Rafa is not by messing around with his little routine but by getting as fit as him. THat's what Djoko did and Murray is almost there.

McEnroe did go on to say that once he'd done all that, he would still have the problem of having to play him!

Interesting article on this by Pat Cash from a couple of years ago:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article5439515.ece

In cricket there is something called "sledging". I wonder whether this might not be appropriate for Tennis ...

Good article

Good article from Pat. BUt the issue with stalling nowadays is not so much gamesmanship but about having a breather when playing a very physical game. That's why disrupting Nadal's routine can only favour his game. He doesn;t need to be that sharp to play his game. He needs to be fit.

yummymummy wrote:Tenez

McEnroe now admits that his "outbursts" were deliberately
thrown to cause disruption to his opponent !

If you read his autobiography you will also see that he deliberately used to get himself banned for a couple of matches so he could nip home to see the kids (when they were too old too travel with him)... he was obviously so far up the rankings it never bothered him much.,

HM Murdoch wrote:Interesting article on this by Pat Cash from a couple of years ago:

[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article5439515.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article5439515.ece[/quote[/url]]


Its a pity that nobody has pointed out the fact the Venus Williams is one of the worst culprits for time wasting... when she played her Japanese oponent the other day she was shameful. Put Djoko and Rafa together and they would not have taken as long as her... on top of which her screaming everytime she hits a ball.

I think it would help a bit. (although knocking over the bottles is too much to ask for )
Berdych and Sod had good results by fighting the fire with fire in the past.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

yummymummy wrote:Tenez

McEnroe now admits that his "outbursts" were deliberately
thrown to cause disruption to his opponent !

If you read his autobiography you will also see that he deliberately used to get himself banned for a couple of matches so he could nip home to see the kids (when they were too old too travel with him)... he was obviously so far up the rankings it never bothered him much.,

I don't believe in all that's written in biographies. Though he may have thrown tantrums to disrupt his opponents, I am more than certain that he lost a few matches because of those tantrums.

All the pros nowadays say it's too physical a game to consider lose focus and energy arguing with opponent and referees.

You want to call McEnroe a liar.... go ahead... Tenez we all know you know best ..I choose to believe HIM if its all the same to you.
He said he got himself banned..., then thats good enough for me.

What annoyed me the most with Venus in that match against Date-Krum was the ball toss. So many times she tossed the ball and let it drop. Poor sportsmanship!

And going back to the Federer incidents, when Djokovic and Del Potro saw they were getting under his skin and the umpire wasn't stopping them, surely they'd be crazy to stop doing it?
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It coudl be tactic from Federer too. Make a fuss about their routine as a way to unsettle them more than unsettling him. I do think it was a bit tactical from Federer when he complained about Djoko's ball bouncing....or simply the result of hours of frustration.

Tenez wrote:And going back to the Federer incidents, when Djokovic and Del Potro saw they were getting under his skin and the umpire wasn't stopping them, surely they'd be crazy to stop doing it?
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It coudl be tactic from Federer too. Make a fuss about their routine as a way to unsettle them more than unsettling him. I do think it was a bit tactical from Federer when he complained about Djoko's ball bouncing....or simply the result of hours of frustration.

My feeling is that it was more frustration than tactics, especially as Federer's routine is amongs the quickest. He was racing through games in under a minute yesterday!
And although he has never got annoyed with Nadal on court, I remember him speaking in interviews about Nadal's service routine and pointing out gets warned but never penalised.
I suspect Federer may actually be one of the easier guys on the tour to wind up!

HM Murdoch wrote:

Tenez wrote:And going back to the Federer incidents, when Djokovic and Del Potro saw they were getting under his skin and the umpire wasn't stopping them, surely they'd be crazy to stop doing it?
----------------------

It coudl be tactic from Federer too. Make a fuss about their routine as a way to unsettle them more than unsettling him. I do think it was a bit tactical from Federer when he complained about Djoko's ball bouncing....or simply the result of hours of frustration.

My feeling is that it was more frustration than tactics, especially as Federer's routine is amongs the quickest. He was racing through games in under a minute yesterday!
And although he has never got annoyed with Nadal on court, I remember him speaking in interviews about Nadal's service routine and pointing out gets warned but never penalised.
I suspect Federer may actually be one of the easier guys on the tour to wind up!

I remember when Nadal and Djokovic had played their four hour, three set semi final on clay. Federer was asked if he thought this would mean Nadal was tired for the final the following day. He replied with something like "those two both take a long time inbetween points"

I would be most interested to know how long Delpo takes.. he has a routine which is very subtle... he ambles to the back of the court, towels, ambles to one ball boy who throws him two balls.. he ambles over to the opposite side to the other ball boy who also gives him two balls which he inevitably discards... he then places one in his pocket and ambles to the base line. Unless he has changed this routine since his operation you will be surprised just how long this ritual takes... its not as obvious as Nadal or Djoko but he does take his time.
There are others who push the limit but now it is expected of Nadal and Djokovic you seldom notice that there are those teetering on the edge so to speak.But as I have already mentioned Venus Williams is as bad as it gets

Yes federer never tires of mentioning how long those two take between points.

I also think Federer does speed up between points to make the game less physical nowadays. A way to rush Nadal and Djoko to go for more.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I would be most interested to know how long Delpo takes.. he has a routine which is very subtle... he ambles to the back of the court, towels, ambles to one ball boy who throws him two balls.. he ambles over to the opposite side to the other ball boy who also gives him two balls which he inevitably discards... he then places one in his pocket and ambles to the base line. Unless he has changed this routine since his operation you will be surprised just how long this ritual takes... its not as obvious as Nadal or Djoko but he does take his time.
There are others who push the limit but now it is expected of Nadal and Djokovic you seldom notice that there are those teetering on the edge so to speak.But as I have already mentioned Venus Williams is as bad as it gets

I had noticed Delpo takes his time. He does this annoying thing of knocking a ball back to the ballboy without even looking at it. Any ideas why he does this? I notice Mannarino was doing it an awful lot yesterday too.

But then Federer has a little trick..... he changes his tennis racket at a strategic point in the match which can upset his oponents concentration. Im sure he isn´t beyond pulling a few strokes of his own.

Guest82 wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:I would be most interested to know how long Delpo takes.. he has a routine which is very subtle... he ambles to the back of the court, towels, ambles to one ball boy who throws him two balls.. he ambles over to the opposite side to the other ball boy who also gives him two balls which he inevitably discards... he then places one in his pocket and ambles to the base line. Unless he has changed this routine since his operation you will be surprised just how long this ritual takes... its not as obvious as Nadal or Djoko but he does take his time.
There are others who push the limit but now it is expected of Nadal and Djokovic you seldom notice that there are those teetering on the edge so to speak.But as I have already mentioned Venus Williams is as bad as it gets

I had noticed Delpo takes his time. He does this annoying thing of knocking a ball back to the ballboy without even looking at it. Any ideas why he does this? I notice Mannarino was doing it an awful lot yesterday too.

He is buying time... no different to what Nadal and Djoko do.. just a less obvious way of doing it thats all

Also these routines become so engrained the players cant change them anymore. Some of it is taking time, some of it is just idiosyncracy. We also need to compare how long the players take from the umpire calling the score, not from when the point is over.

McEnroe tended to play better after his outbursts, its one reason I think he goaded himself into them as he knew it could help him raise his game. I think his lower number of slams is also due to the extreme competition in the 80s plus he took time off the tour in 85/86 that harmed him greatly.

Of course, we are assuming that if Nadal's routine was interfered with it would harm his play...but it might not. He's not mentally strong for nothing - would probably just create new routines, or see interferences as mere blips and draw strength from the other person having to resort to such tactics.

Lydian
Not just because its Nadal.. Djoko, Delpo and others are "guilty" of whatever the reason they do take this extra time..as you rightly say it has become part of "their game" (with the exception of Venus Williams who I believe was doing it deliberately) I can forgive it. Today´s game is so physical and intense that I think the players do need "breathing" space between points.. if that goes over the limit (and it is not ridiculously excvessive ) then I think its a subject that has run its course. If the officials are not prepare to intervene with the status quo.. then let it be. Some of the idiosyncracies (whilst annoying if you dwell on each and everyone too long ) requires a blind eye

I agree that many players are doing it in their own ways. When you have longer ralleys on key points its unrealistic to expect play to start in 20 secs, for one thing th crowd may clap for a minute.
The umpire has to show discretion to know when extra time is ok - and as I say they have to start time after they have called the score - and the score may sometimes take a while to come after a long ralley.
The game is more physical, partly due to the slowing of surfaces, partly to other technology advances and changes, resulting in longer and longer ralleys.

Surely the umpires would be calling the players out if it was such a big issue though and you dont really hear many players moaning about it. Obviously clear gamesmanship needs to be nipped in the bud.

Lydina - When will you stop feeding this forum with wrong facts? I am serious, when will you stop? You are constantly trying to give false information to advantage your player and then you call yourself a fan of tennis?

Here is the 20s rule:

TIME VIOLATION / DELAY OF GAME

Following the expiration of the warm-up period play shall be continuous and a player shall not unreasonably delay a match for any cause.

A maximum of twenty (20) seconds shall elapse from the moment the ball goes out of play at the end of the point until the time the ball is struck for the first serve of the next point. If such serve is a fault then the second serve must be struck by the server without delay.

That is the rule and only rule at slams, not when the referee calls the score. This rule is broken every at every single point by Nadal.
Another of his unruly time delaying tactic is to choose between 3 balls after a let, yet he does it systematically.

That is the rule and only rule at slams, not when the referee calls the score. This rule is broken every at every single point by Nadal.
Another of his unruly time delaying tactic is to choose between 3 balls after a let, yet he does it systematically.

.......................

And just when will you stop singling Nadal out for your critical comments Tenez ... as has been mentioned on here by me and others he is NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT BREAKS THIS RULE... but you will not miss one single opportunity to accuse him of this time violation or anything else that suits your agenda . I am not defending him in particular..YES HE DOES VIOLATE THAT RULE... but you for once stop criticising Lydian and others for something you do yourself.

I have to agree Haddie. It's becoming a bit tedious. Anyone would think Rafa is the devil incarnate. Can we just agree that they all have their faults and perhaps discuss the tennis that is on instead?

Haddie - What is your view on breaking the rule?

Is that ok?

See my comment to Lydian above.. If you kept up with the posts of OTHER PEOPLE´s views instead of being totally preoccupied with your own you might have some understanding of others viewpoints

Goodness Tenez, you love to have the last word don't you. It's already been done to death that we would all like all the bad boys who take longer than the alloted time to speed up, and nobody agrees with rule breaking, however as has been mentioned, Rafa is not the only one that does it, there are quite a few others so why are you just singling him out?

What about when Roger saunters over to his seat to change his racket - perhaps we should time him next time? Or maybe we can just watch the match and enjoy these fabulous players while we can, with all their talent and yes, their faults, and stop getting so worked up about a few seconds here and there.

cats_r_cool wrote: It's already been done to death

Why would it matter whether it has been done to death? That's not the point. Besides I did not started it. It's you and your friends who try to justify it's ok to break the rule..to death!!!.

I am not the one starting teh issue with Nadal's time taking here, am i? I am only saying what the rule is and obviously trying to bring some truth in many of those biased comments.

Yes I am picking up on Nadal more than the others cause he is obviously the one who started to abuse teh rule beyond reason. Of course other would follow suite, why would not they?

Thanks for pointing out the rule to all of us ignorant people. Thank goodness you are here to enlighten everyone

No Tenez lets not misunderstand each other... lets be absolutely sure of what YOU ARE SAYING.... we (that is the rest of us ) have agreed that there is TIME WASTING... by MOST players..including your beloved Federer... lets make this absolutely clear to all the moderators that are reading this thread. THIS is typical of Tenez what Tenez has become known for... NADAL BASHING... there Ive said it.. and I do not retract it because that is what you do and that is what you are now doing.

My last word to you on this subject Tenez

Haddie,

I have read the comments on this thread. Tenez has acknowledged that Federer may use psychological tactics, i.e having a dig about Djokovic during a match. The OP was the one who mentioned specific players. Tenez DOES have the right to voice his opinion on this subject matter.

Tenez,

I would appreciate it more if their were other players you could bring into some discussions other than a certain Spaniard.

Guys can we calm down, because of late what is appearing on threads is attacking ones opinions (I can confess I did last night) but I would like to see some order restored.

Thanks

It's ok. I win the argument but lose the smileys battle: 0-3!

Tenez wrote:It's ok. I win the argument but lose the smileys battle: 0-3!

By the comments of the other posters on here you have far from won argument believe me.

LK

The day that a certain poster ever acknowledges that he uses only one CERTAIN SPAINIARD in any of his arguments then I will apologise to you.

In the meantime I do not wish to converse wiith "this person" so as far as Im concerned the subject is closed ..cant be bothered wasting my breath
Your peace is restored

Let's face it folks - if YOU were in a tennis match wouldn't YOU
do EVERYTHING in your power to win it ?
That includes psychological games

I know I would

yummymummy wrote:Let's face it folks - if YOU were in a tennis match wouldn't YOU
do EVERYTHING in your power to win it ?
That includes psychological games

I know I would

I usually try to use my racquet.

Tenez - if you're going to speak to me at least get my name right.
I'm not going to hold any further "discussions" with you on this tennis forum now.

My last comments to you are (LK - dont worry there'll be no further comments on this): you seem incapable of holding balanced discussion beyond your obsession in denigrating Nadal. If someone tries to make counter-arguments they are labelled an extreme fan or having an agenda against Federer - you have accused at least 2 people of this. Your extreme views against Nadal are well known to ex-606ers and they led to your ban on that site. It seems to me that you only ever bring rancour and discord to every forum I've seen you on, and you've been banned from at least 2 forums to my knowledge. You appear to have a problem in your posting style and obsessive need to win arguments. Your manner is often arrogant and assumptive, as well as being patronising. I'm sure many other posters on here would agree with this. Its no wonder you have been forcibly exited from other forums.

All I can say, Tenez, is keep it up

My views are not extreme on Nadal. They are just right.

If I say Nadal is extreme in his time wasting, does that make me extreme? If I say Nadal has an extreme physical game, does that make me extreme?

At the end of the day I am only extreme for the extreme fans...As you can read from all my posts from the beginning of this thread, there is not much "extreme" in my comments. I don't defend the undefensible. You are.

Tenez - DON'T TELL ME you are above the occassional
raquet related psychological manoevre !

TRY getting over your NADAL OCD complex We all *worship*
(if that is the right word) our individual hero but at least try
to give the other players a little bit of acknowledgement

Tenez wrote:

yummymummy wrote:Let's face it folks - if YOU were in a tennis match wouldn't YOU
do EVERYTHING in your power to win it ?
That includes psychological games

I know I would

I usually try to use my racquet.

Oh My sides are aching with laughter

I have tried the 'men who stare at goats' approach once when I smashed my racket. Nearly worked

Hope the goats wer'nt hurt

HM Murdoch wrote:Interesting article on this by Pat Cash from a couple of years ago:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article5439515.ece

Interestingly, I recall Soderling complaining about Nadal's service routine at this year's French Open. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a link, but I did watch their quarterfinal match and vividly remember Robin complaining to the chair umpire. However, I don't blame Rafa. It is the job of the chair umpire to enforce the rule.

If Rafa is not warned, then how would he know he is doing something wrong?

kemet wrote:

HM Murdoch wrote:Interesting article on this by Pat Cash from a couple of years ago:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article5439515.ece

Interestingly, I recall Soderling complaining about Nadal's service routine at this year's French Open. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a link, but I did watch their quarterfinal match and vividly remember Robin complaining to the chair umpire. However, I don't blame Rafa. It is the job of the chair umpire to enforce the rule.

If Rafa is not warned, then how would he know he is doing something wrong?

I remember that as well but thing is that umpires want to stay non controversial and being no. 1 it seems that rafa holds a strong clout in the tennis fraternity. But, like it has been said before that he is not the only one doing this. Same goes for grunting as who to be fined first?

On the other hand, by taking mcenroe advise someone can defeat rafa that way because berdych and sod did that in the past, didn't they?