Do Wales have the psychological edge over this England team?

Although England clearly have the better players, does last year's mauling at the hands of Steve Welsh and the Welsh team give them a distinct edge going in to next week's encounter?
It may be universally accepted that Steve Walsh had a huge hand in the result, but the scars of that defeat must run deep. Or perhaps has Ireland's battering of Wales and then their subsequent loss to England redressed this imbalance?

who's reffing next week?

this england team appear to have a lot of belief. cant see them rolling over like they did last year, no matter how badly the scrum goes (and lets not forget the welsh second row is seriously weakened so its hard to see the welsh scrum totally dominate - they'll probably just do their usual of trying to trick penalties).

I don't think they clearly have the better players and to be truthful England were torn apart upfront in their last game... legally.

Wales can go in with confidence that they have performed well against England and have had the edge over the last few years.

England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1.

quinsforever wrote:who's reffing next week?

this england team appear to have a lot of belief. cant see them rolling over like they did last year, no matter how badly the scrum goes (and lets not forget the welsh second row is seriously weakened so its hard to see the welsh scrum totally dominate - they'll probably just do their usual of trying to trick penalties).

Poite

MissBlennerhassett wrote: Or perhaps has Ireland's battering of Wales and then their subsequent loss to England redressed this imbalance?

I'm glad Ireland intervened and sorted out the English/Welsh family row so.  Don't mention it folks.  Our aim is promote good-relations throughout Europe by strategically winning and losing rugby matches.

The only predictable thing about the Welsh/English game that's coming is that unfortunately one of you will be out of the race by the end.  The way Wales works, you could never bet against them.  But then England are looking so solid structurally and brimming with confidence (and at home), it would be difficult to bet against them too.  Stalemate for now.

fa0019 wrote:I don't think they clearly have the better players and to be truthful England were torn apart upfront in their last game... legally.

Wales can go in with confidence that they have performed well against England and have had the edge over the last few years.

England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1.

i assume this is for wind up purposes?

doesnt matter how many lions a welsh coach gave caps to if the 9/10 axis works as effectively as a mainsail made of used toilet paper.

and i think england's newboys look very hungry and very capable. nowell, may, brown, care. they play against north every week and he's the best the welsh have got, so there's not going to be any fear.

Not sure who's reffing?

The problem last year was that England started well but whenever they got in to a good field position, they were wrongfully pinged by, let's say at best, an incompetent referee. Their heads dropped and Wales took full advantage. If the same thing happens again (Welsh front row are specialists at conning penalties), I fear that those memories could come flooding back.
Fingers crossed for a fair performance from the ref this time.

I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

fa0019 wrote:I don't think they clearly have the better players and to be truthful England were torn apart upfront in their last game... legally.

Wales can go in with confidence that they have performed well against England and have had the edge over the last few years.

England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1.

What game were you watching, possibly the ladies match, must confess I didn't see that one.

I agree Fly

I think if England should go in with confidence and expect to perform and win. However Wales will have no fear of England.
I think England are the team on the move and are only at the cusp of realising their potential. Wales are probably as good as they can be at the moment.

Gatland will want to armwrestle England into the floor and England have a real point to prove. This match as much as any will determine whether they are good enough, ruthless enough to be genuine RWC title contenders or not.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think they clearly have the better players and to be truthful England were torn apart upfront in their last game... legally.

Wales can go in with confidence that they have performed well against England and have had the edge over the last few years.

England have it all to do. Fortress Twickenham will have no worries for this Welsh team. Wales may take the field with 12 players capped by the lions in tests. England probably will field 1.

What game were you watching, possibly the ladies match, must confess I didn't see that one.

So when England were being smashed left right and centre in the scrums it was all due to Walsh? Walsh gave England a lot of space before he got tired of their infringements and started to penalise and bin people. He went with momentum and England were simply beaten to a pulp.

fa - england's last game was against ireland

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

quinsforever wrote:fa - england's last game was against ireland

Last game against Wales, Quins.

In terms of Lions test players the post was about England having superior players.... all I was suggesting was that England's team have 1 lions test player in it and Wales will probably have 12. Difficult to suggest England have better players under those conditions.

The difference I agree is that England's potential is higher and that Wales are already peaking/already peaked esp with an ageing front row and the new scrum laws. But in terms of been there done that, Wales clearly have the better players.

The answer is no. The game's at HQ. England have just beaten arguably the best side in the competition (a side that mullahed Wales), and did it even tho' we had an inferior scrum and a bunch of young lads on the field. In the last 10 minutes of the Ireland game we throttled the life out of them. Welcome to Twickers Wales.

As a neutral I think this a really fascinating one - I do think in many positions Wales have better individuals - North, Roberts, Davies,Warburton but mostly marginally so.

England look mentally very strong and home advantage will be key - as will England's motivation to gain revenge from last season and also Wales dominating the Lions selections. Wales have the edge in the scrum and England the lineout. The breakdown will be crucial.

Despite Irelands recent improvements under Schmidt these are the two strongest teams in the 6N on paper, with very little between them.

I'm going to pick England, just, to do what they need to do to win - but won't be surprised either way.

The only issue in all this is really France.

France are being as crazy as usual - putting together one solid Team effort at the beginning of the second half against Italy to obliterate the Italian challenge.  After that - nobody really knows how good or bad France are - and therefore nobody knows how well they've truly done against them.  

England won the French game in every department except the scoreboard.  Was that France showing elan and inidividual invention or was that England being a little rusty and not fully up to speed?  We don't really know which.

Wales beat France in what looked like a tour-de-force return to last year's form.  But was it?  Was it just Wales not needing to do too much to cast aside an appalling French team - and it was.  It was a bad bad French performance.  There was scantly a team there in theory, gameplan or practice. Was that Welsh pressure forcing the French team to implode or did they arrive as less than a team anyway?  There'll be two theories there too.

So, just like the English/Ireland game - where both sides looked confident enough in their abilities leading into that game but both knew the true test of where they are would be that game - Wales and England are now at that point.  Did France play better against England or Wales and does that influence where the Welsh and English teams in reality are?  We'll see during the game.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The answer is no. The game's at HQ. England have just beaten arguably the best side in the competition (a side that mullahed Wales), and did it even tho' we had an inferior scrum and a bunch of young lads on the field. In the last 10 minutes of the Ireland game we throttled the life out of them. Welcome to Twickers Wales.

Didn't Wales mullah France who beat England? In rugby if A>B and B>C then A is not always >C.

Wales have lost to Ireland in their last 2 games, Ireland have lost to England in their last 4 games and Wales have beaten England in their last 3 games.

fa0019 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:fa - england's last game was against ireland

Last game against Wales, Quins.

In terms of Lions test players the post was about England having superior players.... all I was suggesting was that England's team have 1 lions test player in it and Wales will probably have 12. Difficult to suggest England have better players under those conditions.

The difference I agree is that England's potential is higher and that Wales are already peaking/already peaked esp with an ageing front row and the new scrum laws. But in terms of been there done that, Wales clearly have the better players.

You could argue the likes of Robshaw and Wood were unfortunate not to tour with the Lions. Hartley excluded himself with his red card vs Leicester in the AP final.

The likes of Care,Marler,Lawes and Brown are much improved from a year ago etc.

Wales as a squad are more settled than England at the moment, their lineup for the game will be very predictable and it won't be radically different from last years or even the year before that. I think that experience playing together will be their biggest advantage, however England do have some of the form players in this years championship.

fa0019 wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The answer is no. The game's at HQ. England have just beaten arguably the best side in the competition (a side that mullahed Wales), and did it even tho' we had an inferior scrum and a bunch of young lads on the field. In the last 10 minutes of the Ireland game we throttled the life out of them. Welcome to Twickers Wales.

Didn't Wales mullah France who beat England? In rugby if A>B and B>C then A is not always >C.

Wales have lost to Ireland in their last 2 games, Ireland have lost to England in their last 4 games and Wales have beaten England in their last 3 games.

Slightly missed my point there. We won't beat Wales because we beat Ireland. We'll beat Wales because we're mean moody and magnificent.

Well I'm pretty convinced in my assessment that England have much the better team and that we would have won the GS last year were it not for Walsh. I respect that Welsh posters will have a different view, fair play, but when did they last take a SH scalp?
That being said, I do think that the manner of last yea'rs game might have created a bit of a hoodoo that could become apparent if England are unfairly penalised again after Welsh infringements.

I don't think they do. Wales will have no fear of HQ. Eng will be determined to get a win after last years drubbing.

missblennerhassett I don't blame Walsh. I blame Lancaster for picking Brown on the wing, Wood at no 8 and Croft who had just come back from a long injury layoff at 6.

England struggled at the breakdown because of this and Brown was horribly exposed defensively twice. Just look at the two Welsh tries - Welsh backrowers and Cuthbert involved.

Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

No modern player has fear of HQ any more than English players fear Millennium or Lansdowne.  The plus of home is not the fear it engenders in the opposition, who are professionals and play to win in every game, but the fever the crowd rise in the home players.  
They feel the energy of the crowd behind them.  All modern players though kinda rise to that kind of noise... and if it's a fever mood and the crowd are heavily involved, the Welsh will be energised by it adrenalin-wise as much as the English.

That's a little bit of the danger of England doing fast and furious things in an exciting way.  They'll invite Wales to play the same way.  Maybe ironically the better template is to play much more controlled and at a slower tempo.  Keeping Welsh adrenalin levels down can sometimes be a hidden key.

beshocked wrote:missblennerhassett I don't blame Walsh. I blame Lancaster for picking Brown on the wing, Wood at no 8 and Croft who had just come back from a long injury layoff at 6.

England struggled at the breakdown because of this and Brown was horribly exposed defensively twice. Just look at the two Welsh tries - Welsh backrowers and Cuthbert involved.

Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I think it's interesting that as some teams have played more games they have made correct tweaks which have improved their sides.

E.g. Scotland taking out Ford - their lineout has gone from woeful to decent, Wales dropping Phillips to the bench, Wales seemed to have a bit more zip vs France with an actual 9.

Would much rather see Phillips starting vs England than Webb.

Secretfly I would hardly say England have played in a fast and furious way. I would say it's been very much pressure based and going through the phases. Can't see England changing too much. Hardly revolutionary.

Disagree - I think these venues are not easy places to win.

"England clearly have the better players"

"It may be universally accepted that Steve Walsh had a huge hand in the result"

"last yea'rs game might have created a bit of a hoodoo that could become apparent if England are unfairly penalised again after Welsh infringements."


I think your own comments have answered the question from a fans point of view

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:missblennerhassett I don't blame Walsh. I blame Lancaster for picking Brown on the wing, Wood at no 8 and Croft who had just come back from a long injury layoff at 6.

England struggled at the breakdown because of this and Brown was horribly exposed defensively twice. Just look at the two Welsh tries - Welsh backrowers and Cuthbert involved.

Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I would agree with Beshocked on that. They were going for the GS yes but they hadn't put in a performance against Italy or France and scored what 5 tries in 4 games leading up to the match. They were not on GS form... the lost the championship during the Italy game where they should have put them to the sword. However they were toothless in attack and gave Wales an opening. Had it been a 30-40 point deficit the mentality and incentive of the game would have been far less.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I am trying to avoid posting on anything non-AP related, but have to jump in here. Do not ever mistake form for results. England played well against Scotland and Ireland - different types of performances but both good. They were poor against France and dire against Italy. A season that had started with fizz had descended into stodge by the last match. So yes our form was poor by then. (similar to Leicester this month, playing badly but winning - eventually it catches up with you)

fa0019 wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:missblennerhassett I don't blame Walsh. I blame Lancaster for picking Brown on the wing, Wood at no 8 and Croft who had just come back from a long injury layoff at 6.

England struggled at the breakdown because of this and Brown was horribly exposed defensively twice. Just look at the two Welsh tries - Welsh backrowers and Cuthbert involved.

Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I would agree with Beshocked on that. They were going for the GS yes but they hadn't put in a performance against Italy or France and scored what 5 tries in 4 games leading up to the match. They were not on GS form... the lost the championship during the Italy game where they should have put them to the sword. However they were toothless in attack and gave Wales an opening. Had it been a 30-40 point deficit the mentality and incentive of the game would have been far less.

Agreed, they weren't on fire but to say they were in poor form is very disrespectful to the 4 teams they had already beaten.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think you'll provoke some angry Welsh responses by saying England have the better players. I think it's difficult to say who has the better players.

To answer the question - Not sure. Winning consecutive matches against a team does make a difference in my opinion.

England had won two on the bounce vs Ireland so a 3rd victory was not too surprising in my opinion - especially at home.

Wales will feel confident but this is a different look England side.

I think it will be a very tough match but at least this time round England should have a winger on the wing and a no 8 at no 8.

England will have to find a way to stop Wales' big men generating momentum.

Realistically only North and Roberts would get in to this England side, possibly Adam Jones now what with England's injury tally.

Really? Your being absurd now. Given England have a total lack of genuine openside flankers available (Wood, Robshaw etc are all blindsides converted to opensides by England), I would have thought Warburton and Tipuric would walk into that team at 7.

Englands young backs havent achieved anything yet. We will talk again when second season sydrome hits half the youngsters picked. I dont think you can compare their potential talent against people who have in excess of 50 odd caps and worn the T Shirt. Talk about jumping the gun a bit.

LondonTiger wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I am trying to avoid posting on anything non-AP related, but have to jump in here. Do not ever mistake form for results. England played well against Scotland and Ireland - different types of performances but both good. They were poor against France and dire against Italy. A season that had started with fizz had descended into stodge by the last match. So yes our form was poor by then. (similar to Leicester this month, playing badly but winning - eventually it catches up with you)

Well said.  

I would say England are in a much better place than last year. Okay 13-10 vs Ireland isn't the most exciting scorelines but with defences on top with two relatively evenly matched sides a close match was not surprising.

Frustating that England lost to France because the GS would have been there for the taking.

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly I would hardly say England have played in a fast and furious way. I would say it's been very much pressure based and going through the phases. Can't see England changing too much. Hardly revolutionary.

Disagree - I think these venues are not easy places to win.

Well...we don't agree often, beshocked so I'm not so surprised.  
England play with lots of pace (in my language I call that fast and furious)..a central cog in their overall success projections.  They churn things around at speed.... so that the opposition can't settle, so that the opposition are stretched, so that the opposition tire (hopefully), so that the opposition lose focus on their own systems, so that the opposition panic.  It's as clear as day to me that England make the clear decision to use fitness levels and tempo to give your phases potency.  That generates adrenalin.  That can also fire up a side like Wales.

But there you go.  We'll disagree again

From a Welsh Point of view, I'm disapointed that Gats has selected some of the squad on reputation.

For me Webb played well but actually I think Rees (Dragons) and Gareth Davies (Scarlets) should in fact the the front runners for Wales at 9. Their form has been totally ignored.

I also think Tovey was outstanding this season. For me Priestland shouldnt be starting or even have been selected for Wales. He's been far to inconsitent this year for the Scarlets. Hook hasnt been brilliant either. Biggar and Tovey should have been occupying the starting 23 without question in my opinion.

TBH there are to many players that have been selected based on faith and not form. Maybe this is acceptable to do for North and Warburton but I dont think anyone else should be allowed that kind of pass card.

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Plus of course England were in pretty poor form at the time.

Poor form going for the GS...................yeah right!

I am trying to avoid posting on anything non-AP related, but have to jump in here. Do not ever mistake form for results. England played well against Scotland and Ireland - different types of performances but both good. They were poor against France and dire against Italy. A season that had started with fizz had descended into stodge by the last match. So yes our form was poor by then. (similar to Leicester this month, playing badly but winning - eventually it catches up with you)

Well said.  

I would say England are in a much better place than last year. Okay 13-10 vs Ireland isn't the most exciting scorelines but with defences on top with two relatively evenly matched sides a close match was not surprising.

Frustating that England lost to France because the GS would have been there for the taking.

Having watched the game as a neutral I have to say that even though England played well in the last 20, I actually thought Ireland should have won the game in the opening 20 of the second half.  So while I think England played well for the win, part of me also thinks Ireland threw this game away (similarly to how the England where the better side against France and lost).

Thats just my neutral viewpoint.

For what its worth....
England should be paper favourites. Ignore the paper rock scissors nonsense, that have a better record over a short and an extended period of time. Im sure some bitter welsh fans will refuse to accept that, but they do. England have a better recent record of winning rugby matches than Wales do, even if they havent done well in the head to head.
They also have home advantage, which does count.
Both sides have been inconsistent this championship but both appear to be in decent for right now.
All in England have to be considered favourites. But last year will weigh on them, especially with the scrum taking a Poopie this weekend. It doesnt take a genius to figure out that the Welsh will be licking their lips and looking to get as many scrums as they can. Weve seen England use it as a weapon and utterly destroy Ireland a couple of years ago, the biggest danger I see England is Wales doing it them ...as they did last year. A truly dominant scrum can win you games.

So will England be nervous about some aspects of this game? I cant see how they wont be. Does that translate to a psychological edge or decisive factor? Guess we will find out on the day.

player vs player a neutral supporter

15 Halfpenny vs Brown. Brown on form, Halfpenny on pedigree. Equal
14 Cuthbert vs. Nowell. Cuthbert.
13 North vs. Burrell. North is superior player but out of position. Equal at 13.
12 36 vs Roberts. Roberts
11 Williams vs. May. May.
10. Priestland vs. Farrell. Farrell
9. Webb vs Care. Care
8 Faletau vs. Vunipola/Morgan. Equal
7. Warburton vs. Robshaw. Equal
6. Lydiate vs. Wood. Lydiate.
5. Charteris vs. Lawes. Lawes.
4. AWJ vs. Launchbury. Launchbury at the moment.
3. Jones vs. Marler. Equal (Marler is really stepping up and Jones is struggling).
2. Hartley vs. Hibbard. Hartley lineout superior, Hibbard is having a standout season outside of set piece. Dire with set pice. Equal.
1. Wilson vs. Jenkins. Jenkins.

From that I see England have 6, Wales 4 and 6 equals. Thats pretty close to me and 1 hr ago I could have gone 6 Wales, 4 England.

The only thing is that whilst the backrows are pretty equal I think the halfbacks for England are a lot more settled and superior and why I see England taking the match.

fa0019 pretty good assessment in my opinion though personally I think Wood is superior to Lydiate.

Welshmushroom I felt that England should have scored a try vs Ireland in that long period of pressure in the first 20 minutes of the game.

Decisive moment in my opinion was Sexton's mistake at the kick off.

given its at HQ and just England beat a very good Ireland side then i would say lancasters boys are favorite . gatlands men must step up another gear to compete . plus England will have a potential treble crown to inspire them

SecretFly wrote:
The only predictable thing about the Welsh/English game that's coming is that unfortunately one of you will be out of the race by the end.  The way Wales works, you could never bet against them.  But then England are looking so solid structurally and brimming with confidence (and at home), it would be difficult to bet against them too.  Stalemate for now.

That being the case, hopefully they will do the decent thing and draw!

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The only predictable thing about the Welsh/English game that's coming is that unfortunately one of you will be out of the race by the end.  The way Wales works, you could never bet against them.  But then England are looking so solid structurally and brimming with confidence (and at home), it would be difficult to bet against them too.  Stalemate for now.

That being the case, hopefully they will do the decent thing and draw!

Actually good good idea Notch!  Why didn't I think of that??!!!  Your best thought in the however many years I've been reading your posts.

A draw at 3 apiece please.........................  Thanks lads, your kindness has been noted in advance.

Probably do, yes but that'll go if we win now, and it is at Twickers and we look better than we did for the last match between the two here...

SecretFly wrote:A draw at 3 apiece please.........................  Thanks lads, your kindness has been noted in advance.

Meanwhile Ireland lose to Italy and France smash Scotland.

Actually, that's probably worth a bet!

Oh that sure could happen.....  Probably France smashing Scotland is the most likely (hopefully)

...whilst the most fun (for me) would be Scotland smashing France though.

I know.  I'm probably evil.... that word shouldn't be 'fun' and more PC, like "most strategically beneficial"

I don't feel any particular dread going into this Wales game. I see it as very like the Ireland game: a huge test with the opposition maybe slight favourites. The difference is that after the Ireland game I have more confidence in the England team - even depleted as it is. Indeed the number of new faces and combinations mean that I expect that to the players, the result against Ireland is of much greater significance than what happened in a game many of them watched on tv two years ago.

England at home having passed a stern test against Ireland in some style. Wales can talk themselves up as much as they like but this is a different team than the one that played last year. Arguably England are stronger and Wales weaker. Wales have two chances slim and slimmer. A lot will depend upon whether big Billy is available as to how easy it is.

So.... to carry on the logic............. if big Billy isn't available Wales' chance goes up to good to slim?

I still think Morgan is a better player than BV.

England have a lot of reasons to be up for this game, last years defeat by Walsh/Wales and the fact so many missed out on a Lions series because they weren't friends with Gatland.

Bring it on.