Wrestling Observer 5* matches
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The v2 Forum :: Wrestling :: Wrestling
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Wrestling Observer 5* matches
The following is a list of matches that were given the elusive ***** rating by Dave "Da Meltz" Meltzer within the confines of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter
JCP/WCW/Misc. Territories
* 2/14/86 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Battle of the Belts 2)
* 4/19/86 Sheepherders vs. Fantastics (Bobby Fulton/Tommy Rogers)
* 1/20/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA World Wide)
* 4/11/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham
* 2/20/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (NWA Chi-Town Rumble)
* 3/18/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat
* 4/2/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls, NWA Clash of the
Champions VI: Ragin' Cajun)
* 5/7/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar '89: Music City
Showdown)
* 11/15/89 Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" Match, NWA Clash of the
Champions IX: New York Knockout)
* 2/24/91 Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs.
Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames Match, WCW
WrestleWar 1991)
* 5/17/92 Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, &
Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, &
Larry Zbyszko (WarGames Match, WCW WrestleWar 1992)
World Wrestling Federation
* 3/20/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match, WrestleMania X)
WWF Intercontinental Championship
* 8/29/94 Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage Match, SummerSlam 1994) WWF
Championship
* 3/23/97 Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match, WrestleMania
13)
* 10/5/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker (Hell in a Cell Match, In Your
House: Bad Blood) WWF Championship
TNA
* 9/11/05 AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels (TNA
Unbreakable 2005)
Ring of Honor
* 10/16/04 Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (ROH Joe vs Punk 2)
* 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH Joe vs Kobashi)
* 3/31/06 Dragon Kid & Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA & Naruki
Doi & Masato Yoshino (ROH Supercard Of Honor)
Pro Wrestling NOAH
* 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa
* 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama
All Japan Pro Wrestling
* 12/08/84 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk & Terry Funk
* 03/09/85 Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi
* 01/28/86 Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichrio Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu
* 12/16/88 Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy
* 01/28/89 Genichrio Tenryu, Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Yoshiaki Yatsu/Masanobu Fuchi
* 06/06/89 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu
* 06/08/90 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta
* 10/19/90 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi
* 05/22/92 Jumbo Tsuruta & Masanobu Fuchi & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada
* 05/25/92 Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi
Kikuchi
* 04/14/93 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 07/02/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama
* 07/29/93 Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 08/31/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 12/03/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta
Kobashi
* 02/13/94 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu
Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue
* 05/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/03/94 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/19/95 Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 03/04/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 04/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue
* 06/09/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 05/23/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/07/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 12/06/96 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama
* 06/06/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 6/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 10/23/99 Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari
Ogawa
* 04/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo
Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi
* 07/05/92 Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi &
Tsuyoshi Kikuchi
* 06/30/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki
Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda
* 12/05/97 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama
New Japan Pro Wrestling
* 04/23/83 Tiger Mask I vs. The Dynamite Kid for the NWA Junior
Heavyweight Title
* 03/20/87 Keiji Mutoh & Shiro Koshinaka vs. Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada
* 04/16/94 "Wild Pegasus" Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup
'94)
* 07/08/94 Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke
* 06/05/97 El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto (Best of the Super Jr. IV)
AAA
* 11/06/94 Los Gringos Locos vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon AAA When
Worlds Collide; (hair vs. masks)
All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling
* 08/22/85 Lioness Asuka vs. Jaguar Yokota
* 02/26/87 Chigusa Nagayo vs. Lioness Asuka
* 12/06/87 Lioness Asuka/Mika Komatsu/Kazue Nagahori/Mitsuko Nishiwaki/Etsuko Mita/Sachiko Nakamura vs. Chigusa Nagayo/Yumiko Hotta/Mika Takahashi/Mika Suzuki/Yachiyo Hirata/Yumi Ogura
* 08/15/92 Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada
* 04/02/93 Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori
* 04/02/93 Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki
* 04/11/93 Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki vs. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo
Yamada
* 12/06/93 Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi
Ozaki
* 08/24/94 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue
* 11/20/94 Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota
Universal Wrestling Federation
* 12/05/84 Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada
Japan Women's Pro Wrestling
* 07/31/93 Dynami Kansai & Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka
vs. Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa & Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue
So what do people think agree,disagree,more you would add
JCP/WCW/Misc. Territories
* 2/14/86 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA Battle of the Belts 2)
* 4/19/86 Sheepherders vs. Fantastics (Bobby Fulton/Tommy Rogers)
* 1/20/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham (NWA World Wide)
* 4/11/87 Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham
* 2/20/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (NWA Chi-Town Rumble)
* 3/18/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat
* 4/2/89 Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls, NWA Clash of the
Champions VI: Ragin' Cajun)
* 5/7/89 Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (NWA WrestleWar '89: Music City
Showdown)
* 11/15/89 Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" Match, NWA Clash of the
Champions IX: New York Knockout)
* 2/24/91 Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs.
Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames Match, WCW
WrestleWar 1991)
* 5/17/92 Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, &
Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, &
Larry Zbyszko (WarGames Match, WCW WrestleWar 1992)
World Wrestling Federation
* 3/20/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder Match, WrestleMania X)
WWF Intercontinental Championship
* 8/29/94 Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage Match, SummerSlam 1994) WWF
Championship
* 3/23/97 Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission Match, WrestleMania
13)
* 10/5/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker (Hell in a Cell Match, In Your
House: Bad Blood) WWF Championship
TNA
* 9/11/05 AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels (TNA
Unbreakable 2005)
Ring of Honor
* 10/16/04 Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk (ROH Joe vs Punk 2)
* 10/1/05 Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi (ROH Joe vs Kobashi)
* 3/31/06 Dragon Kid & Genki Horiguchi & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA & Naruki
Doi & Masato Yoshino (ROH Supercard Of Honor)
Pro Wrestling NOAH
* 3/1/03 Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa
* 7/10/04 Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama
All Japan Pro Wrestling
* 12/08/84 Stan Hansen & Bruiser Brody vs. Dory Funk & Terry Funk
* 03/09/85 Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi
* 01/28/86 Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichrio Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu
* 12/16/88 Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Terry Gordy
* 01/28/89 Genichrio Tenryu, Toshiaki Kawada & Samson Fuyuki vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Yoshiaki Yatsu/Masanobu Fuchi
* 06/06/89 Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu
* 06/08/90 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta
* 10/19/90 Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi
* 05/22/92 Jumbo Tsuruta & Masanobu Fuchi & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Toshiaki Kawada
* 05/25/92 Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi
Kikuchi
* 04/14/93 Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 07/02/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu
Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama
* 07/29/93 Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 08/31/93 Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 12/03/93 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta
Kobashi
* 02/13/94 Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu
Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue
* 05/21/94 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/03/94 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/19/95 Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 01/24/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 03/04/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 04/15/95 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue
* 06/09/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 05/23/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira
Taue
* 06/07/96 Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny
Ace
* 12/06/96 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama
* 06/06/97 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada
* 10/31/98 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 6/11/99 Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi
* 10/23/99 Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari
Ogawa
* 04/20/91 Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo
Tsuruta & Akira Taue & Masanobu Fuchi
* 07/05/92 Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi &
Tsuyoshi Kikuchi
* 06/30/95 Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki
Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda
* 12/05/97 Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun
Akiyama
New Japan Pro Wrestling
* 04/23/83 Tiger Mask I vs. The Dynamite Kid for the NWA Junior
Heavyweight Title
* 03/20/87 Keiji Mutoh & Shiro Koshinaka vs. Akira Maeda & Nobuhiko Takada
* 04/16/94 "Wild Pegasus" Chris Benoit vs. Great Sasuke (Super J Cup
'94)
* 07/08/94 Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke
* 06/05/97 El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto (Best of the Super Jr. IV)
AAA
* 11/06/94 Los Gringos Locos vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagon AAA When
Worlds Collide; (hair vs. masks)
All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling
* 08/22/85 Lioness Asuka vs. Jaguar Yokota
* 02/26/87 Chigusa Nagayo vs. Lioness Asuka
* 12/06/87 Lioness Asuka/Mika Komatsu/Kazue Nagahori/Mitsuko Nishiwaki/Etsuko Mita/Sachiko Nakamura vs. Chigusa Nagayo/Yumiko Hotta/Mika Takahashi/Mika Suzuki/Yachiyo Hirata/Yumi Ogura
* 08/15/92 Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada
* 04/02/93 Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori
* 04/02/93 Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki
* 04/11/93 Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki vs. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo
Yamada
* 12/06/93 Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi
Ozaki
* 08/24/94 Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue
* 11/20/94 Aja Kong vs. Manami Toyota
Universal Wrestling Federation
* 12/05/84 Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada
Japan Women's Pro Wrestling
* 07/31/93 Dynami Kansai & Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki & Hikari Fukuoka
vs. Aja Kong & Sakie Hasegawa & Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue
So what do people think agree,disagree,more you would add
ncfc_Tooze- Global Moderator
- Posts : 9235
Join date : 2011-01-25
Age : 33
Location : North Walsham,Norfolk
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
so no WWE match has receieved a 5* rating since 1997? im shocked
psycho-gooner- Posts : 438
Join date : 2011-05-13
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Taker v HBK ( wm ) should be on there for 5 stars for WWE
Bull- Posts : 17546
Join date : 2011-02-22
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Most recent match to get one was 5 years ago as well.
Sometimes I wonder whether he doesn't award some matches you think probably deserved the 5 star rating in WWE just because he likes to be a bit of a wrestling snob.
Sometimes I wonder whether he doesn't award some matches you think probably deserved the 5 star rating in WWE just because he likes to be a bit of a wrestling snob.
Crimey- Admin
- Posts : 16490
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 30
Location : Galgate
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Most recent match to get one was 5 years ago as well.
Sometimes I wonder whether he doesn't award some matches you think probably deserved the 5 star rating in WWE just because he likes to be a bit of a wrestling snob.
I get that impression as well but I've always thought that 1st Hell in a Cell between Taker & Michaels was better than their Mania matches
Brady12- Posts : 1623
Join date : 2011-01-28
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Totally stupid he didn't include the Rock Vs Hogan match at Wrestlemania a few years ago it was epic probably one of the best of all time.
Shifty- Posts : 7393
Join date : 2011-04-26
Age : 45
Location : Kenfig Hill, Bridgend
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
hogan always puts on a good show
pauline1981- Posts : 579
Join date : 2011-06-06
Location : None
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Surprised Bret vs Michaels iron man match isn't on there!
HitmanOwl- Posts : 931
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 37
Location : sheffield
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
im not nothing happened for 59 min
pauline1981- Posts : 579
Join date : 2011-06-06
Location : None
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I'm not, Marty Jannetty vs Shawn Micheals from RAW in May 93 was rated 5 star but isn't on the list, i also think Bret and Kid hit a 5 star aswell, HHH/Cactus Jack at No Way Out and Lesnar/Angle iron man match had to be there
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Bret Hart v. Owen Hart WM10 should be there, the narrative of streetwise older brother vs. Talented younger brother carried over from promos to the match and both characterised this brilliantly in the ring, culminating in the shock win. 5*
HBK v. Taker W26, desperate HBK in the last chance saloon and the benevolent Taker finally putting him away. Brilliant emotion from both athletes. Better than their previous WM match for me.
HBK v. Taker W26, desperate HBK in the last chance saloon and the benevolent Taker finally putting him away. Brilliant emotion from both athletes. Better than their previous WM match for me.
Bonesaw's ready- Posts : 88
Join date : 2011-05-20
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Meltzer was very biased in his early years. His low ratings for Hulk Hogan matches called into question the legitimacy of his star ratings. He was throwing around negative star ratings for matches that were at worst one star.
However, I think he's become a lot more reasonable over time. On the whole, it's difficult to question the matches he has given five stars. I don't really follow the Japanese scene so I don't know about those matches, but otherwise he is following pretty strict guidelines.
A lot of the comments above are so wide of the mark. Accusations of Meltzer being a snob are so trite; I think people who accuse him of being a snob perhaps lack his ability to be objective. WWE has never been a promotion which revolves around five-star matches - the fact it has had four of them is impressive enough!
I'm not sure people realise what constitutes a five-star match. Hogan-Rock was not five stars on any scale! Of course, these things are always a matter of opinion, but to make five stars it is generally accepted that a match must achieve the following:
- It has to be epic in length, 20 minutes at a bare minimum but perferably 25 minutes plus.
- The match and the finish has to be utterly flawless in booking and execution.
- It should be state-of-the-art and/or groundbreaking.
- It should preferably be part of a long-running feud or story arc.
- It should preferably have great crowd heat.
The reason there are so few five-star matches is that they are almost impossible to achieve. I expect Meltzer rated Undertaker and Michaels at WM25 and WM26 around ****3/4. That doesn't mean they weren't incredible matches, it just means that he considered them slightly short of perfect. If he preferred their match at Badd Blood, then he couldn't rate the WM matches at five stars. Same for Bret vs Owen at WM10, a phenomenal match but arguably not quite perfect. Those who accuse Meltzer of anti-WWE snobbery are overlooking these things, and perhaps overlooking just how good a match has to be to reach four stars, let alone five.
However, I think he's become a lot more reasonable over time. On the whole, it's difficult to question the matches he has given five stars. I don't really follow the Japanese scene so I don't know about those matches, but otherwise he is following pretty strict guidelines.
A lot of the comments above are so wide of the mark. Accusations of Meltzer being a snob are so trite; I think people who accuse him of being a snob perhaps lack his ability to be objective. WWE has never been a promotion which revolves around five-star matches - the fact it has had four of them is impressive enough!
I'm not sure people realise what constitutes a five-star match. Hogan-Rock was not five stars on any scale! Of course, these things are always a matter of opinion, but to make five stars it is generally accepted that a match must achieve the following:
- It has to be epic in length, 20 minutes at a bare minimum but perferably 25 minutes plus.
- The match and the finish has to be utterly flawless in booking and execution.
- It should be state-of-the-art and/or groundbreaking.
- It should preferably be part of a long-running feud or story arc.
- It should preferably have great crowd heat.
The reason there are so few five-star matches is that they are almost impossible to achieve. I expect Meltzer rated Undertaker and Michaels at WM25 and WM26 around ****3/4. That doesn't mean they weren't incredible matches, it just means that he considered them slightly short of perfect. If he preferred their match at Badd Blood, then he couldn't rate the WM matches at five stars. Same for Bret vs Owen at WM10, a phenomenal match but arguably not quite perfect. Those who accuse Meltzer of anti-WWE snobbery are overlooking these things, and perhaps overlooking just how good a match has to be to reach four stars, let alone five.
crippledtart- Posts : 1947
Join date : 2011-02-07
Age : 44
Location : WCW Special Forces
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I think it was harsh in the extreme not to give Shawn and Taker 5 for their WM26 Match, I'd say it was borderline flawless, the build up, the match, the emotion and that Tombstone finish, the only thing I might have changed in the build up would have been Shawn winnig the Rumble and making the match a World Title match
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Hmm, not so sure gaffer. I think the title may have got in the way somehow - I know that sounds awful but I can't think of any other way of putting it. Shawn wanted to beat the streak so bad that anything else would have been secondary. The match was all about the streak and Shawn's career, add the World title into the mix and we may have had overload.
liverbnz- Posts : 2958
Join date : 2011-03-07
Age : 40
Location : Newcastle, County Down
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Reading on that list I think you have to say Kenta Kobashi is one of the best wrestlers ever. Absolute quality!
AberdeenSteve- Posts : 6520
Join date : 2011-01-24
Age : 33
Location : Guess?
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
the-gaffer wrote:I think it was harsh in the extreme not to give Shawn and Taker 5 for their WM26 Match, I'd say it was borderline flawless, the build up, the match, the emotion and that Tombstone finish, the only thing I might have changed in the build up would have been Shawn winnig the Rumble and making the match a World Title match
Like I said, five stars is almost impossible to achieve. A lot of people said the WM26 match wasn't as good as their WM25 match. One thing that's for sure is that you wouldn't find many people who would argue that it wasn't a great match; giving either or both of their WM matches would not be controversial in the slightest. The difference between ***** and ****3/4 is so small.
crippledtart- Posts : 1947
Join date : 2011-02-07
Age : 44
Location : WCW Special Forces
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I don't think the match needed the title either, and Shawn being eliminated from the Rumble (on his last chance to get to Taker) added alot to the story. He chased Taker down, cost him the belt and made him want to retire Shawn. It was a great angle, and perfectly played by HBK.
Just thinking about it makes me miss one of the greatest performers there was even more.
Just thinking about it makes me miss one of the greatest performers there was even more.
sodhat- Posts : 22236
Join date : 2011-02-28
Age : 35
Location : London
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I agree but what do you think it lacked? The only thing I can think of is blood
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Sodhat, I agree the match didn't need the title, I just felt the match was worthy of the Title instead of an unfit out of shape Edge vs Jericho
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
the-gaffer wrote:I agree but what do you think it lacked? The only thing I can think of is blood
I don't think it lacked very much. I probably would give it 5* myself but I'm not as strict with my ratings as Melzter. Neither have I seen as many matches for greater comparison.
Going by his criteria I would say it may have been marked down due to it not being entirely ground-breaking, especially considering they had another great match the year before.
At the end of the day it's all subjective, but creates great debate.
liverbnz- Posts : 2958
Join date : 2011-03-07
Age : 40
Location : Newcastle, County Down
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
If I have any criticism of the Michaels-Taker matches, both of which I thought were excellent, it's that the repeated finishers and kick outs were a bit of a shortcut.
They were given leeway that just wouldn't be afforded to most wrestlers in 99% of matches, so they had something of an unfair advantage. I'm not criticising it, because those matches were extremely special and the kick outs added to the drama, but I do think the deck was stacked in their favour.
I found both matches, and the Taker-HHH match this year, verging on comical at times. It was a little bit ridiculous seeing them kick out of each others' finishers over and over again when any wrestler on any other night takes it once and is down for the count. It is really dramatic, but it almost gets to the point where it's a bit laughable.
Also, in the WM25 match Taker botched his suicide dive badly and almost messed up the whole match.
Like I said, both were great matches, but it's a question of whether they were perfect and flawless, or just very, very good. I'm totally aware that I am nitpicking, but that's the whole point of star ratings!
They were given leeway that just wouldn't be afforded to most wrestlers in 99% of matches, so they had something of an unfair advantage. I'm not criticising it, because those matches were extremely special and the kick outs added to the drama, but I do think the deck was stacked in their favour.
I found both matches, and the Taker-HHH match this year, verging on comical at times. It was a little bit ridiculous seeing them kick out of each others' finishers over and over again when any wrestler on any other night takes it once and is down for the count. It is really dramatic, but it almost gets to the point where it's a bit laughable.
Also, in the WM25 match Taker botched his suicide dive badly and almost messed up the whole match.
Like I said, both were great matches, but it's a question of whether they were perfect and flawless, or just very, very good. I'm totally aware that I am nitpicking, but that's the whole point of star ratings!
crippledtart- Posts : 1947
Join date : 2011-02-07
Age : 44
Location : WCW Special Forces
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I'm not a big fan of kick outs from finishers but it certainly does add to the drama and it also helps sell the myth of Taker's immortality at WrestleMania, plus the Tombstone Taker needed to finally beat Shawn was perfect and different to any other he delivered
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
That final tombstone was brilliant and it showed the only way he was going to keep HBK down was by destroying him.
I like kicking out of finishers to a degree, but I do think they get overused at Mania. At almost any other event a finisher actually finishes the match... But in certain matches, like these two, it adds to the story that they just don't want to be beaten.
I like kicking out of finishers to a degree, but I do think they get overused at Mania. At almost any other event a finisher actually finishes the match... But in certain matches, like these two, it adds to the story that they just don't want to be beaten.
sodhat- Posts : 22236
Join date : 2011-02-28
Age : 35
Location : London
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I don't mind a kick out of a finisher, especially at Mania. Its the biggest event of the year where everyone raises their game and gives that little extra, so for someone to kick out of a finisher shows that desire and hunger not to lose on the grandest stage of all and makes the opponent think 'what do I have to do to put this guy away'.
Going back to the 5 star matches, I'd be inclined to ask the question about -
Savage v Steamboat Mania 3
Angle v Michaels Mania 21
Royal Rumble Match 92
Going back to the 5 star matches, I'd be inclined to ask the question about -
Savage v Steamboat Mania 3
Angle v Michaels Mania 21
Royal Rumble Match 92
Mr H- Posts : 2820
Join date : 2011-03-10
Age : 41
Location : Parts Unknown
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
Thanks for the criteria Crips, must admit I was pretty ignorant to how he was gauging it... Saying that the Iron Man match at Wrestlemania 12 must be on the list
Brady12- Posts : 1623
Join date : 2011-01-28
Re: Wrestling Observer 5* matches
I was never a fan of that Iron Man match when it happened and don't think it stood the test of time either, that being said if it wasn't an Iron Man match and just lasted over an hour I think it would have gained it
Kay Fabe- Posts : 9685
Join date : 2011-03-16
Age : 42
Location : Glasgow
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