Nadal’s conduct: not exemplary

I understand the topic has been extensively debated, but it seems useful to me to summarize the reasons that have persuaded many , and me amongst them, to form a non positive opinion about Nadal’s conduct on court.

Here are some discussion points:

1) Nadal’s constant violation of the 20sec rule has the effect of causing recurring delays, of stopping the flow of the game and ultimately irritating his opponents. It’s important to notice that this is a FACT and not an allegation and that, regarding to this point, Nadal is breaching the rules of the game, as the numerous warnings he receives can confirm.

2) Nadal’s numerous medical time outs, often occurring in important matches and important moments have coused irritation in his opponents who in some cases have made complains to the umpire (as Del Potro yesterday). This is also a Fact, and the same behaviour has been widely criticised by media and experts when other players were involved as: Fognini and Djokovic in the past.

3) Nadal has verbally intimidated the umpire when he received a warning for breaching the 20 sec. rule yesterday.


4) On court coaching, for which he has been fined on at least one occasion. This is against the rule also.

5) Keeping opponents waiting before the match (by deliberately spending extra time in the locker room whilst the opponent waits in the corridor - this is despite knowing when the players are scheduled to come out, and, I do believe that the players are given a few minutes advanced warning right before they're expected to come out. Also making his opponent and umpire wait at the net before the coin toss and making his opponent wait after 'time' has been called at the end of the warm up (he usually spends an extra minute serving).

I , on the other hand, do not remember Federer having ever engaged in any of such antics, thus the argument of the Nadal devotees that “we never criticize Federer’s behaviour on court” appears as totally out of place.

I've certainly seen Federer lose his rag with an umpire

It doesn't mean he was intimidating the umpire. MacEnroe used to do that, and his conduct was far from exemplary.

Federer definitely does not do number 1, and I've only ever seen him injured once in a match (vs Murray at the tour finals in Shanghai) even though I've watched him play for 8 years! However, even as a Federer fan, I have to admit that he has moaned at the umpire on occasion; maybe not about time violations, but about bad calls etc. The hawkeye dispute at Wimbledon vs Nadal sticks out in my mind as an example. Still, I would certainly say Federer is a better sportsman than Nadal in terms of him not trying to disrupt his opponent's rhythm.

There's a humorous book on this subject, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamesmanship

I've linked it before and reading it gives you a real flavour of which players perhaps use underhand tactics!

I think part of the issue with Nadal is that he's compared to Fed a lot (due to the rivalry), and the contrast in behaviour on court between the two is big. This only serves to reinforce that Fed is a better sportsman and Nadal less so, just my observation.

This is what winds me up when it comes to nadal's fans, why cant you debate what your man does or does not do on the court with out bringing others in to it?

Out of 4 statements made by Jeremy only one seems to have caught they eye, wonder why?

I'm hope you're not referring to me, I'm not a Nadal fan, -I'm a Fed fan!

The average time taken between point by both opponents yesterday was 26 seconds of the allocated 25 seconds. I'm sure Nadal wins matches because he takes on average a little more time between points. If the Umpire feels the need to warn him, that's fine but yesterday even Delp Potro didn't like the time violation warning as apparently Nadal was giving him time and waiting for him. That was part of the confrontation together with the MTO Del Potro had with the Umpire during the 10 min break but Nadal could have so easily complained about the insant MTO Del Potro was taking right in the middel of a point and it's within his right to as the rule states at the end of a game or a set i think but it's within the disgression of the Umpire to judge other wise.


An opponent does not have to fall down on court or have a split fall and roll around in agony as if shot for there to be an injury, pain or discomfort in their play.

There was little to suggest Nadal was faking injury yesterday when in the 1st set not even once did he face a break point. He was the one dominating the points and even the point which brought about his injury was a shot he made for set point so why should he use tactics from then? Was it part of the plan to get advantage over Del Potro once he is up 3-0 in the tie break? Del Potro had his chances in the tie break and couldn't capitalize on it. If anything, Nadals forehand especially the down the line or short forehand shot down tha line was missing alot and all over the place after he alleged discomfort as you could see he puts pressure on the left foot when playing such shot. An incredible match for tennis for me has yet again been dragged into the mad unfortunate to say by Federer fans obessession and disgust at seeing Nadal win.

I possiby find this strange to be honest. It's a tennis match for sakes.

Perth

Fair comment. I have intentionally kept out from of this debate any comments/allegations regarding gamesmanship or fake injury as thay seems to offer an easy argument to counter by the Nadal apologists. it seems to me that what is objectivly observable is more than enough to draw a conclusion.....

Even more shocking yesterday during the match was rabid Federer fans calling for Nadal to retire from the match if he really was injured, lol :

I guess so one less dangerous competiton for their hero

"rabid Federer fans" ?
Charming!

I have not seen any obsessive Federer fans although I have seen plenty of obsessive and super aggressive Nadal fans.

I have not seen any obsessive Federer fans

We saw yesterday a perfect example of a referee trying to apply the 20s rule and then being threatened by Rafa (I don't care if Delpo came to his rescue). This is unnacceptable.

It just tells you who is teh boss on court. Referees and players are all employees and paid by the same organisation, the ATP. Nadal brings the big $$ with his millons of fans and that puts the referee in a very awkward position.

Tennis is more a show than a sport nowadays. Not far from world wrestling when thinking about it.

And worse was the friendly handshake at the end with Delpo thinking "You got me there but hey we have the same sponsors so let's work together. When I am number one, referees will be on my side. "

I agree that Federer is a better sportsman on court than Nadal - he does lose his rag on occasions but that is usually naive and self-destructive as vs. Del Boy at US Open 2009 or vs. Djoko at Miami in 2009 I think. Since he worked so hard to take that out of his game from the early days it is difficult to believe that when the mask slips it is calculated. Fed does sometimes play silly games with Hawkeye when you can't help wondering if he's trying to disrupt his opponent's rythmn - of course he may just be being petulant and a bit arrogant about a system that he seems not to like. He also gets very cross if he thinks he is being disrespected, as Djoko's family can testify.

Nadal's conduct after the match is frequently more gracious than Federer's and there he does get good marks. He makes a better show of being a good loser than Federer on the face of it and he also makes a better face of taking victory in his stride (Fed was pretty smug after Wimbledon 2009). I think with Federer brittleness and petulance mixed with a bit of arrogance is always closer to the surface than with Nadal.

Since I am interested in them as tennis players rather than as people, I am far more interested in their on-court conduct.

It's easy to overplay this - tennis was incredibly lucky to have Federer as its main main for 4-5 years in the 2000's. He has hardly put a foot wrong as an ambassador for the sport. Tennis got luckier still when this was followed by Nadal's emergence out of a fantastic rivalry. They have hugely improved the players around them and their contrast of styles and obvious mutual respect on and off the court has continued to benefit tennis enormously. It's great to see the rise of Djoko and Murray, and even greater to see how hard they have to work to be even where they are.

This sort of stuff is fine as long as it's only chat - I find myself chafing at Nadal's antics on Court and ultimately we need to put it all into perspective.

Simple_Analyst wrote:The average time taken between point by both opponents yesterday was 26 seconds of the allocated 25 seconds. I'm sure Nadal wins matches because he takes on average a little more time between points. If the Umpire feels the need to warn him, that's fine but yesterday even Delp Potro didn't like the time violation warning as apparently Nadal was giving him time and waiting for him. That was part of the confrontation together with the MTO Del Potro had with the Umpire during the 10 min break but Nadal could have so easily complained about the insant MTO Del Potro was taking right in the middel of a point and it's within his right to as the rule states at the end of a game or a set i think but it's within the disgression of the Umpire to judge other wise.


An opponent does not have to fall down on court or have a split fall and roll around in agony as if shot for there to be an injury, pain or discomfort in their play.

There was little to suggest Nadal was faking injury yesterday when in the 1st set not even once did he face a break point. He was the one dominating the points and even the point which brought about his injury was a shot he made for set point so why should he use tactics from then? Was it part of the plan to get advantage over Del Potro once he is up 3-0 in the tie break? Del Potro had his chances in the tie break and couldn't capitalize on it. If anything, Nadals forehand especially the down the line or short forehand shot down tha line was missing alot and all over the place after he alleged discomfort as you could see he puts pressure on the left foot when playing such shot. An incredible match for tennis for me has yet again been dragged into the mad unfortunate to say by Federer fans obessession and disgust at seeing Nadal win.

I possiby find this strange to be honest. It's a tennis match for sakes.

Symple Analyst: it's no surprise you are preatty symple in your analysis:

First of all: the rule is 20 sec between the points and not 25.

Furthermore: the average doesn't mean anything: you could serve faster occasionally and still breaching the rule in the majority of the points.

keftedaki wrote:"rabid Federer fans" ?
Charming!

I have not seen any obsessive Federer fans although I have seen plenty of obsessive and super aggressive Nadal fans.

Exactly. The Nadal fans are so polarised that they cannot envisage that some have not their polarisation.

Acknowledging Federer's talent and fairplay makes you a fanatic...in their eyes.

They think that if Fed were abusing the game rules we would turn a blind eye. That's how polarised they are.

Nadal, or any player, is not paid by the ATP.

They win prize money (or paid appearance fees additionally) offered by the tournament - which subscribes to ATP rules.

Their handshake and hug at the end looked warm and natural to me.

Well my mistake on writing 25 s. Maybe if both players were hitting the ball more often into the net thereby drawing muted approval from the crowd, they would have been close to the 20s. Not that I care how long a player takes between points though.

lydian wrote:Nadal, or any player, is not paid by the ATP.

They win prize money (or paid appearance fees additionally) offered by the tournament - which subscribes to ATP rules

Same thing. They are not going to make money on a parallel circuit, are they?

Jeremy,

I think you should edit your post to include point:

5) On court coaching, for which he has been fined on at least one occasion. This is blatant cheating.

6) Keeping opponents waiting before the match (by deliberately spending extra time in the locker room whilst the opponent waits in the corridor - this is despite knowing when the players are scheduled to come out, and, I do believe that the players are given a few minutes advanced warning right before they're expected to come out. Also making his opponent and umpire wait at the net before the coin toss and making his opponent wait after 'time' has been called at the end of the warm up (he usually spends an extra minute serving).

7) Ridiculously over celebrating points, often shouting vamos when his opponent makes an error. In all fairness, he has toned this down quite a bit over the years.

Some of these transgressions may seem minor to Rafanatics but when pieced together they leave a distinct unsavoury taste and reek of bad sportsmanship at the least, if not outright cheating.

emancipator - telling it how it is.

Can you enlighten me: what did Nadal say to the umpire which threatened him. I didn't hear it

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:I understand the topic has been extensively debated, but it seems useful to me to summarize the reasons that have persuaded many , and me amongst them, to form a non positive opinion about Nadal’s conduct on court.

Here are some discussion points:

1) Nadal’s constant violation of the 20sec rule has the effect of causing recurring delays, of stopping the flow of the game and ultimately irritating his opponents. It’s important to notice that this is a FACT and not an allegation and as regard to this Nadal is breaching the rules of the game, as the numerous warnings he receives can confirm.

2) Nadal’s numerous medical time outs, often occurring in important matches and important moments have coused irritation in his opponents who in some cases have made complains to the umpire (as Del Potro yesterday). This is also a Fact, and the same behaviour has been widely criticised by media and experts when other players were involved as: Fognini and Djokovic in the past.

3) Nadal has verbally intimidated the umpire when he received a warning for breaching the 20 sec. rule yesterday.

4) I , on the other hand, do not remember Federer having ever engaged in any of such antics, thus the argument of the Nadal devotees that “we never criticize Federer’s behaviour on court” appears as totally out of place.

1) I agree he violates, but like I said before it is for the chair umpire to uphold, not just the players.

2) Like I said yesterday the timing can be debated and like I said Delpo was annoyed, but like above the chari umpire allowed it, not the player

3) I don't know what was said between Nadal and the umpire, so please feel free to diclose the dialogue below.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Well my mistake on writing 25 s. Maybe if both players were hitting the ball more often into the net thereby drawing muted approval from the crowd, they would have been close to the 20s. Not that I care how long a player takes between points though.

Taking extra time between points is an important issue. It allows Nadal to recover between points and disadvantages players who may have better anaerobic fitness., e.g players like Federer and Murray, who can quite happily recover quickly and move between points.

In any case, regardless of the obvious advantage that it produces, this tactic of his is a flagrant violation of the rules of the game. Rules are there to be followed, otherwise they should be done away with. Of course there has to be a degree of common sense involved, for example, if the players have just engaged in a 30 shot rally, then it would be prudent to allow them some extra time to recover. The problem with Nadal, and other offenders of his ilk such as JMDP, is the persistent and continuous breaching of this rule, even after he has been warned - this shows NO respect for the umpire or the rules of the sport and suggests unjustified arrogance on his part.

Oh, and wrt point 2, interesting is it not that the MRI scan showed no real damage?

Lol I thought Nadal apparently has the biggest lungs in tennis therefore does not get tired.

emancipator wrote:Jeremy,

I think you should edit your post to include point:

5) On court coaching, for which he has been fined on at least one occasion. This is blatant cheating.

6) Keeping opponents waiting before the match (by deliberately spending extra time in the locker room whilst the opponent waits in the corridor - this is despite knowing when the players are scheduled to come out, and, I do believe that the players are given a few minutes advanced warning right before they're expected to come out. Also making his opponent and umpire wait at the net before the coin toss and making his opponent wait after 'time' has been called at the end of the warm up (he usually spends an extra minute serving).

7) Ridiculously over celebrating points, often shouting vamos when his opponent makes an error. In all fairness, he has toned this down quite a bit over the years.

Some of these transgressions may seem minor to Rafanatics but when pieced together they leave a distinct unsavoury taste and reek of bad sportsmanship at the least, if not outright cheating.

emancipator - telling it how it is.

Emancipator: many thanks those are all fair points. I am going to re-edit the original article, for respect of completness, including those.

No real damage seen by MRI indeed, doesnt mean there isnt some damage there though.

Anyway, why would a player choose to take a 10 minute time-out before a tie-break? Neither player was in the ascendancy, Nadal had nothing to gain. The way he pulled up looked painful, and the pic of him sat at the chair grimacing looks natural too. The rules of the game allow MTO's...he thought he'd snapped something so he would want to get it checked. If we dont want MTOs in the game at all then be prepared to see alot more walkovers - which tournament directors DO NOT want.

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:I understand the topic has been extensively debated, but it seems useful to me to summarize the reasons that have persuaded many , and me amongst them, to form a non positive opinion about Nadal’s conduct on court.

Here are some discussion points:

1) Nadal’s constant violation of the 20sec rule has the effect of causing recurring delays, of stopping the flow of the game and ultimately irritating his opponents. It’s important to notice that this is a FACT and not an allegation and as regard to this Nadal is breaching the rules of the game, as the numerous warnings he receives can confirm.

2) Nadal’s numerous medical time outs, often occurring in important matches and important moments have coused irritation in his opponents who in some cases have made complains to the umpire (as Del Potro yesterday). This is also a Fact, and the same behaviour has been widely criticised by media and experts when other players were involved as: Fognini and Djokovic in the past.

3) Nadal has verbally intimidated the umpire when he received a warning for breaching the 20 sec. rule yesterday.

4) I , on the other hand, do not remember Federer having ever engaged in any of such antics, thus the argument of the Nadal devotees that “we never criticize Federer’s behaviour on court” appears as totally out of place.

I wonder if I should dig up all the post match interview given by Fed when he lost. That would sum up what type of sportsman/person he really is. But then I don'g dig on those reports because I know he didn't mean it - only said during the heat of the moment. I am a Nadal fan but I have enormous respect for Roger's achievement and his amazing game. Fed appreciates Nadal's skills and vice versa. People like Jeremy_Kyle dislike Nadal so much it speaks a volume about themselves - very sad life and insecure person.

People think Nadal fakes his humbleness too - I heard somewhere that Toni once told nadal "at the end of the day you are only a ball hitter, not an inventor who saved millions of lives".

Moderator - I would suggest you do something before this becomes BBC 606. I am not a big contributor but certainly read a lot here, but if posters are only interested to bash one particular player then what is the point. I better watch the reply of Wimbo 2008 - amazing play from both guys. Love Rafa and love you Fed too.

Superhochog:

the views expressed in this post are actually very balanced and based on objective facts; if you as Nadal fan cannot take the minimal critisism, i am just sorry for you.

there is a general feel that rules violation is occuring and that this should just stop as rules are above all, including the superstars of the game.

You should consider this before your rant. Thanks

Seems like its turning into a Nadal-hate thread now that the numbers of "issues" he has are up to 6 and counting...

fine, in conciliatory tone I'll edit the 6th point as not strictly related to rules infringement ......

Superochog,

No one is discussing post match issues. What a player says in a press conference doesn't directly affect the outcome of a match.

The isssues above, on the other hand, all directly influence the outcome of a match and thus are important points of discussion.

As for how players conduct themselves after a match, quite frankly, that's secondary - this is not a personality contest.

he can be the nicest man you have ever met off the court, that does not mean that what he does on the court can be excused.

If you think they dont affect the outcome then you have never stepped on the arena for any sport.

I still cant get my head around as to why fed or anyother player is being discussed here.

lydian wrote:Seems like its turning into a Nadal-hate thread now that the numbers of "issues" he has are up to 6 and counting...

Can we write a similar thread about Youzhny or Tsonga?

Why Lydian do you excuse a player playing outside the rule? I read somewhere you were a fan of tennis and not of a particular player. So explain.

Don't bring this thread down to hate or love of a player....discuss the points. Why do you allow a player to break the time and MTO rule and then you find it fine when he complains to the referee.

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Symple Analyst: it's no surprise you are preatty symple in your analysis:

First of all: the rule is 20 sec between the points and not 25.

Besides: that average was shown at 4-4 in the first set.. You can easily add 8 seconds to that for the final match average

gallery play wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:
Symple Analyst: it's no surprise you are preatty symple in your analysis:

First of all: the rule is 20 sec between the points and not 25.

Besides: that average was shown at 4-4 in the first set.. You can easily add 8 seconds to that for the final match average

And Nadal serves quickly after an ace cause he has done less running. Being clocked at 31s after getting the warning!

Lol. That was actually the final match average, didn't you see? Blink*blink*.

One amusing thing also is when Nadal takes a MTO and loses, it's all well with the world but woe on to him should he win. I'm sure he tactically took a MTO at Wimbledon 07 final 4th set to disrupt the rhythm of the then way ward Federer even further despite being ahead.

If Nadal is the swine you all make out then it is odd that he seems to have a good rapport with three of his biggest rivals. Surely they would me more piqued than most by his devilish antics?

I actually agree that he takes too long between points, and the towelling down after almost every point is tiresome. No one has convincingly explained to me why he would fake an injury last night though - the guy had edged the general play in the first set and just hit a terrific bending forehand down the line to bring up set-point.

I don't like those waiting games either, just looks stupid, plain stupid.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Lol. That was actually the final match average, didn't you see? Blink*blink*.

One amusing thing also is when Nadal takes a MTO and loses, it's all well with the world but woe on to him should he win. I'm sure he tactically took a MTO at Wimbledon 07 final 4th set to disrupt the rhythm of the then way ward Federer even further despite being ahead.

So you accept that Nadal uses MTOs for tactical reasons. Thanks for your honesty btw

Of course he does especially when the masterplan behind that particular MTO was to cool down Federer and get his focus back in the game so he can go on and win the match.

Positively 4th Street wrote:If Nadal is the swine you all make out then it is odd that he seems to have a good rapport with three of his biggest rivals. Surely they would me more piqued than most by his devilish antics?

That is to make you happy. Beautiful world, all great champions who like each other.

DO you really think if player A hated to guts player B, you and I would systematically be entititled to know ?

Positively 4th Street wrote:If Nadal is the swine you all make out then it is odd that he seems to have a good rapport with three of his biggest rivals. Surely they would me more piqued than most by his devilish antics?

I don't think anyone is trying to defame his character off court - he seems like a nice guy to me.

We are discussing his on court behaviour which personally, I believe, has a lot to be desired.

emancipator wrote:
I don't think anyone is trying to defame his character off court - he seems like a nice guy to me.

We are discussing his on court behaviour which personally, I believe, has a lot to be desired.

And frankly, where else than under pressure and important situations can we really judge a person's ethics? Tennis players are judged on the court...not in the post match interview.

All the friendly, smiley, shoulders taps displayed after the match are meaningless to me.

parthi wrote:he can be the nicest man you have ever met off the court, that does not mean that what he does on the court can be excused.

If you think they dont affect the outcome then you have never stepped on the arena for any sport.

I still cant get my head around as to why fed or anyother player is being discussed here.

I believe parthi is right: you really have to have competed in any sport, no matter at what level, to understand the point. It has nothing to do with off court behaviour....

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

parthi wrote:he can be the nicest man you have ever met off the court, that does not mean that what he does on the court can be excused.

If you think they dont affect the outcome then you have never stepped on the arena for any sport.

I still cant get my head around as to why fed or anyother player is being discussed here.

I believe parthi is right: you really have to have competed in any sport, no matter at what level, to understand the point. It has nothing to do with off court behaviour....

Does that count when my nephew shouts out when I try and serve?

Now doubt that sometimes in sport someone resorting 'gamesmanship' can be off putting, but then we find the true test of persons character if they handle distractions mentally

emancipator wrote:

Positively 4th Street wrote:If Nadal is the swine you all make out then it is odd that he seems to have a good rapport with three of his biggest rivals. Surely they would me more piqued than most by his devilish antics?

I don't think anyone is trying to defame his character off court - he seems like a nice guy to me.

We are discussing his on court behaviour which personally, I believe, has a lot to be desired.

I agree with your final two points, but up to a point. If his biggest rivals thought he was a grossly unfair player on court, rather than (as I do) a serial envelope pusher who takes advantage of weak officialdom they would not have the respect for him that they do I suggest.

I agree, everything I seen of Nadal's behaviour off court has been exemplary and impressive, if only more sportsmen were like that. However, as pointed out, it's about what he's like on court. I've mentioned before on threads that Nadal's behaviour and tactics on court, whether intentional or not, does not warm him towards you. It gives every appearance of being intentional too, that's not to say yesterday was, I'm just saying it very often appears so.

As for it being a test of character of the opponent who has to put up with the gamesmanship, what does it say of the player who resorts to it? Does it suggest he realises he hasn't got the ability to beat his opponent through being a good sportsman? Also, I don't get it, Nadal is well used to beating Federer, as some posters have said, in grand slams we know the result pretty much before the match is started, then why is it Nadal needs to resort to such distractions? Surely it gets in the way of the viewers watching the match from appreciating how brilliant and dominate Nadal is? So why does he continue to resort to it? I'm all ears as to why.

Simple_Analyst wrote:Lol. That was actually the final match average, didn't you see? Blink*blink*.

lol you're bluffing, lol

legendkillar wrote:

Jeremy_Kyle wrote:

parthi wrote:he can be the nicest man you have ever met off the court, that does not mean that what he does on the court can be excused.

If you think they dont affect the outcome then you have never stepped on the arena for any sport.

I still cant get my head around as to why fed or anyother player is being discussed here.

I believe parthi is right: you really have to have competed in any sport, no matter at what level, to understand the point. It has nothing to do with off court behaviour....

Does that count when my nephew shouts out when I try and serve?

Now doubt that sometimes in sport someone resorting 'gamesmanship' can be off putting, but then we find the true test of persons character if they handle distractions mentally

LK: apologies, when I said "no matter at what level" I didn't really mean it literally........