606v2 Picks the irish RWC Squad: PROPS

Morning all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So beginning with props the options are

Court-able to play both sides of the scrum (only one prop spot on the bench at RWC).
Ross-Ireland's new TH, best Irish scrummager, improving in loose.
Healy-LH, fantastic in the loose and improving in the scrum.
Buckley-TH, hot and cold in scrum and fairly handy in loose, good hands.
Hayes-TH, old and not great in loose, may retire if he doesn't make squad, human forklift in lineout.
Horan-LH, been out for a while but back and playing well enough.
Wilkinson-LH, playing well for Connacht, ok in loose, improving scrummager

Pick 4 props out of the 7 options. Explain your decisions and we will see what debates pop up.

Happy Tuesday.

There will be two issues here:

1) Do we take 5 Props

2) Is it Buckley, Horan or Hayes as the 4th choice prop? I've gone for Hayes

Yeah Stag there will be.

To everyone:
I just went for a 16-14 split because I feel it the more likely scenario. I realise some may think a 17-13 split more likely but lets just run with this for now.
Please note: A serious injury to a player means that the team can call another player in that position into the squad from home.

I agree about the 4th prop issue, 3 choose themselves. I went for Buckley (impact off the bench if he gets to the bench)

Most will agree three definites - Healy, Ross, Court (only because he can cover both sides not that he's especially brilliant)
Buckley - sorry he's flattered to deceive too often and is a liability at scrum time
Horan - if it was the pre-injury Horan then no argument but would he be fit enough
Hayes - we don't need him to play 80 mins, we don't need him to make bullocking runs in the loose like Healy - all we need is him to hold his own at TH for part of the game if and when Ross is replaced and launch POC into space to pick off the lineouts
Verdict - the Bull for me - and if we took five props add in Hagan

Is there an arguement also that, if Buckley was selected in the squad, that he should get the bench spot because of the impact he can make???

For what its worth I'm agree on the 16-14 split. As for the props I've gone for Hayes as he helps our lineout, has so much experience, Buckley had a very poor season and as useful as Buckley is an impact sub, I expect the versatile Tom Court to be on the bench most games.

Brennon - Hagan won't travel. He's not even in training squad.

The three definites and Hayes. His lineout ability could be a huge asset particularly against the like s of Australia.

Thomond-
Not sure I'd want Hayes in the 22 against Australia. I'd want someone more mobile and while Court isn't lightening he is quicker and better around the park than Hayes.

I went for Buckley but understand why people are going for Hayes.

Buckley. The reality is that Hayes can offer nothing else but a few inches at lineout. Thats it.

I think its gettingg to the point where its dangerous to ask him to pack down.

We will be laughed out of it if they see us coming over with Hayes and Horan

Horan spent the whole ML final last season trying to elbow people off the ball and spoil the play as much as he can. A true sign of someone who is physically not able to play at the top level anymore.

So, no Hayes and no Horan. This WC should not be a "jobs for the boys" WC.

I've gone for 5 but I'd be tempted to risk 4.

I would 100% take Healy, Ross and Court.

Buckley I would take due to his ball carrying ability.

I'm not convinced that Ross is fit enough to play 80min of every game so I would be tempted to take Hayes too.

Also is Court better at LH or TH? does anyone know or know which he prefers himself?

Rodders-

IMO we don't have enough quality at prop to justify taking 5. If a 17-13 split was happening I'd take an extra backrow

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also is Court better at LH or TH? does anyone know or know which he prefers himself?

He's a better LH for me and a very good one too. I'd be a pretty concerned about his scrummaging at TH mind you that applies to Hayes and Buckley too..

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also is Court better at LH or TH? does anyone know or know which he prefers himself?

I'd be a pretty concerned about his scrummaging at TH mind you that applies to Hayes and Buckley too..

True that. I can see Court and the other prop starting in the game against the Russians before Italy and that being it injury aside

Boyne, but he's had a better season than Buckley has. I know it doesn't say much. Neither are good players really but one of them has to go.

Here's a question...do we risk Buckley (or Hayes) against Australia bearing in mind we need our front row firing on all cylinders against Italy and possibly SA too if we lose to Australia?

The USA encounter will be very physical too so to expect Ross in particular to deliver the goods against Australia, Italy and possibly the Boks would be asking a lot.

Hayes gives us more options than Hayes. Buckley is a decent rucker ,a poor scrummager and an average lifter. Hayes is great lifter,good in the rucks and has had trouble in the scrum. At least Hayes will give us some options.

We have to play our best team against Australia and Italy.

Both Healy and Ross shouldn't start for the Russia game. Maybe play as much as necessary of the USA game (as in if we find ourselves comfortable after 45 mins, get one of em off.)

To me Ross MUST MUST play against Australia. We can actually get the upper hand in the scrum and it will be a great launch pad for the first phase moves that have served us well in the past.

I'd have Ross playing the opening game against USA and sitting out the Russia test. Start the Italy game but get subbed early. He plays against Australia.

Thomond wrote:Hayes gives us more options than Hayes. Buckley is a decent rucker ,a poor scrummager and an average lifter. Hayes is great lifter,good in the rucks and has had trouble in the scrum. At least Hayes will give us some options.

Not in terms of ball carrying and work in the lose he doesn't. I'd have Buckley before Hayes. The challenge with Buckley is getting a good performance out of him but he certainly has the ability to provide more impact than Hayes.

Rodders,don't we already have enough ball carriers? Do we really need another one? Heaslip,Wallace,Ferris,O'Brien(obviously one of them won't be playing),POC,Healy and if Flannery is fit he gives a decent option. Is there need for another?

Thomond wrote:Rodders,don't we already have enough ball carriers? Do we really need another one? Heaslip,Wallace,Ferris,O'Brien(obviously one of them won't be playing),POC,Healy and if Flannery is fit he gives a decent option. Is there need for another?

There is need for someone who is capable of carrying...

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:We have to play our best team against Australia and Italy.

I don't think we can. Italy is a must win game and I don't think it is a foregone conclusion at all. We can't afford to just focus on the Australia game and I don't think we can play the same side in both games and hope to beat SA too.

I think we could risk a rotated front row against Australia more than we could against Italy.

Just a thought. if we are subbing Buckley on that obviously means we are leaving on our LH most likely Healy. If Healy is on the pitch we don't need another player to carry ball we need a grafter.

Starting to sway towards Hayes ahead of Buckley but he does offer something Hayes never will be able to and can change games.

Truth is we cant play anything but our 1st team FR against either Oz or Italy...

Healy Best Ross for the 2 games.

Our fixtures will be;
Sunday 11 Sept - United States
Sat 17 Sept - Australia
Sunday 25 Sept - Russia
Sunday 2 Oct - Italy

I think you have to play your primary props for the first game of the group stage and also against Oz and Italy. This is to set the team off on the right foot and build momentum into the crunch Oz fixture and then also Italy are our closest rivals in the group and the threat of early knock out! (which is a possibility)

So Healy and Ross play 3 games and we need then to rest them for the Russia game, so Court at LH and Hayes at TH for that game with Healy as impact sub for that game.

Do you get 2 props on the bench for the RWC, I assume we are back to only 1 prop required on the bench?

Ah I thought it went USA - Russia - Italy - Aus

Thanks BWS!!

Thanks Band

I agree with everything you said there too. When is the QF??

No only one prop on the bench allowed. UNLESS we go for a 5-2 split on the bench against Italy. Now there's an idea

Buckley does provide impact that Hayes does not. if youa re looking for a bench player Buckley is better. With 20 mins to go against Italy or Aus in a close game, I'd prefer him coming on than Hayes I think.

hayes doesn't offer any impact other than fresh legs and they aren't that fresh at 37 (nearly 38)

Thomond wrote:Rodders,don't we already have enough ball carriers? Do we really need another one? Heaslip,Wallace,Ferris,O'Brien(obviously one of them won't be playing),POC,Healy and if Flannery is fit he gives a decent option. Is there need for another?

No we don't at all, in fact it is a massive weakness. We have no decent ball carriers in the 2nd Row, Ross isn't great, Best isn't great, Flannery is terrible, neither centre is good at ball carrying and only Trimble is effective across the backs and he might n't start.

We are far to reliant on our back row and Healy to get us over the gainline so the option of extra ball carriers is very important.

Compare to NZ or SA for example who have ball carriers all over the park.

I seem to have gone against the grain with my selections.

Ross and Healy are my definites, and the clear favourties to start the big games.

My back-up props are Buckley and Horan.

Buckley, despite technical scummaging flaws, is the best impact sub from the bench for Ross. He also wouldn't be playing against top scrummaging sides (Russia and the US, or coming on as an impact sub against Aus), and as such, I'd take the chance that his abilities in the loose for 20 minutes trump his scrummaging weaknesses.

Horan, because I think he's Ireland's second best loosehead prop, better than Court in that role, and I'm taking him as loosehead cover. Both before and after his lay-off he's played some good stuff, and like Healy, the prop he's understudying, he's a good mobile loosehead. He also brings lots of experience.

I don't rate Court. Yes, he cover both sides, but to my mind is inadequate on both. I wouldn't take 5 props were I Kidney, and extra back or an extra back row player (in case Ferris isn't fully firing) would be more helpful. Court could be lingering around NZ just in case cover is needed.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Horan, because I think he's Ireland's second best loosehead prop, better than Court in that role

You haven't just stepped out of a flying DeLorian by any chance?...

Nope, just my point of view. Feel free to rate Tom Court if you like.

roddersm wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Horan, because I think he's Ireland's second best loosehead prop, better than Court in that role

You haven't just stepped out of a flying DeLorian by any chance?...

Sorry- funny as...!!!

Nice to get an outsiders opinion feS

POC isn't that bad a ball carrier.
Rodders,here is the South Africa team for the game against England,their last Autumn international : http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/109184.html

Who would you consider ball carriers? I would say Matfield,Spies,De Villiers, Bismarck Du Plessis while Smith and Bakkies do some aswell. Ireland aren't in that bad a position when you compare them.

2 props on the bench against Italy is this a good plan??

So Healy and Ross start then the bench would be...

LH, TH, Hooker, Lock, Backrow

Then maybe utility backs

Boss or O'Leary as scrumhalf cover
Wallace as 10 cover

What do people think?

Thomond we aren't that badly off but we are too reliant on 3 or 4 exceptional ball carriers in O'Brien, Heaslip, Ferris and Wallace.

We want to get the likes of Heaslip, Wallace and O'Brien running wide and not trucking up the hard yards all day.

POC is not an effective ball carrier, a hard working one yes but quite often fails to cross the gain line.

If you pick DOC, Best, BOD, Ross and D'arcy to start then we need to compensate else where. Trimble adds one more at 11 and Buckley at least gives us another in the squad should we need it.

Thomond wrote:POC isn't that bad a ball carrier.

True in the sense that he doesn't get turned over, but lets face it, he usually gets the ball and dives head first into the ground after 2 paces. He's a leader, a talisman, an incredible lineout operator and much, much more. But he's not exactly a dynamic forward.

As for Hayes. I can see why people would bring him, but to be honest if you're in the RWC and your first choice prop has to come off after just 5 minutes then John Hayes is not the right replacement to have on the bench. He had some good games recently towards the end of the ML season, but those games have been the exception rather than the rule.

greybeard wrote:

Thomond wrote:POC isn't that bad a ball carrier.

True in the sense that he doesn't get turned over, but lets face it, he usually gets the ball and dives head first into the ground after 2 paces. He's a leader, a talisman, an incredible lineout operator and much, much more. But he's not exactly a dynamic forward.

I agree with this. He is a ball carrier the way Cullen is. The object with them both is to secure ball not to go forward with it.

Bench split idea against Italy anyone???????

funnyExiledScot wrote:Nope, just my point of view. Feel free to rate Tom Court if you like.

Underrated. He's a decent scrummager at LH but not great at TH where he is played too often. Pretty good around the park, powerful and dynamic (although not as fast as Healy), and unlike Horan and Hayes is capable of putting in 80mins of action.

Certainly in this decade he'd be above Horan in the pecking order.

Buckley is ahead of Hayes and getting pretty close to Court.
Horan doesn't seem to be featuring any more and Wilkinson hasn't got off the line.

To answer an earlier question about Hagan, Hagan isn't in the 43 man squad.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Our fixtures will be;
Sunday 11 Sept - United States
Sat 17 Sept - Australia
Sunday 25 Sept - Russia
Sunday 2 Oct - Italy

I think you have to play your primary props for the first game of the group stage and also against Oz and Italy. This is to set the team off on the right foot and build momentum into the crunch Oz fixture and then also Italy are our closest rivals in the group and the threat of early knock out! (which is a possibility)

So Healy and Ross play 3 games and we need then to rest them for the Russia game, so Court at LH and Hayes at TH for that game with Healy as impact sub for that game.

Do you get 2 props on the bench for the RWC, I assume we are back to only 1 prop required on the bench?

If we win Group C, then we play Sat 8 Oct at 6pm. If we are runner up, then we play Sunday 9 Oct at 6pm. Both games are in Wellington.

I see some people saying Horan to come as the 4th prop. While he is good, he wouldn't take the bench spot as he doesn't cover tighthead. That means he must start so when would you start him other than against Russia. I wouldn't take a player who I think will only play 1 game. If Healy got injured, then Horan gets on a plane before Healy is even put on a stretcher.

Yeah I agree with Band. Don't really see the point in bringing Horan. Russia is the only game where we can actually rotate properly. if USA wasn't the first game a degree of rotation would be ok but bar maybe 2 or 3 players the team to play the USA has to be our first team.

Court is the only player who can play both sides to some sort of acceptable standard so there is no debate on his inclusion - he has to go. What would Kidney do if he had Horan on the bench and Ross had to come off?
Healy and Ross will obviously go, so it is the fourth prop that there is any debate about.

I'd take Buckley and start him with Court against the USA and Russia. I'd have Ross on the bench for the USA and Healy on the bench for Russia.

I really don't see the need to start the full test team in the first game as they will have had as many dry runs as they need in the warm-ups, so it's better to keep Healy and Ross as fresh as possible for the bigger games.

So why Buckley over Hayes?
1. He offers a lot more in the loose. Against the weaker nations he should be fine in the scrum, but can shoulder some carrying responsibility from the backrow
2. Of the remaining choices he has at least played both sides of the scrum. If there happened to be an injury to Court in the USA game he could move to LH. (Of course Kidney could just pick Healy as sub for both games instead but I was trying to spread the workload).
3. In those games he is starting, he is more likely to last the full 80 than Hayes.


BTW Pete I think it's a terrible idea to start with a 5-2 split against Italy. It implies that Ireland will change their entire front row and their second string will be a match for Italy? Surely Ireland need to avoid such set piece confrontation where possible rather than actively plan for it - would it not be better to get to uncontested scrums as soon as possible?

Great post Aukster.

Ausker-

I see where you are coming from there actually. My thinking was that our props would have a very hard time of it in the scrum so may be best to take them off early but I see what you mean there.

I agree with you on Hayes/Buckley also.

On top of Buckley being able to survive against the weaker nations, if he was required to come off the bench in the last 20 or so I think he would make more of a positive impact in almost all way than Hayes

"Court is the only player who can play both sides to some sort of acceptable standard so there is no debate on his inclusion - he has to go."


There is a debate. I think Court is rubbish so I wouldn't pick him. Playing both sides badly is no more useful than playing one side well. It is helpful, but not mandatory, to have a prop on the bench that covers both sides. Many teams will pick match day squads without genuine cover for both sides.

Healy won't play every game. You'll need a player to play loosehead when he isn't playing. My view is that Horan fulfils that role better than Court.

As for the prop on the bench in the big games for impact, I'd pick Buckley ahead of Court, even though Court does cover both sides. My reason - Buckley would add something, Court would detract. Yes, you would have issues were Healy to get injured in the second minute, but you can't legislate for each injury eventuality, and personally, I go with the bench that provides impact ahead of the bench that provides cover.