Anthony Allen

This may have been covered briefly when the squad was announced, but does anyone else think that Anthony Allen should have got a look in for the big pre world cup training squad?

I'm not convinced Flutey has found form and I'm not a fan of Hape particularly, I would have liked to see someone else (my choice would be Allen who I think has performed very well with Leicester) to have been given a go at some point. I suppose Johnson just sees it as too late to do this (and yet Botha, Tuilangi and Waldrom get call ups with no international experience) or he's given the trainee centre spot to Manu and is hoping neither Hape nor Flutey get injured before the world cup. If one of them do then we have just the remaining one and Banahan to cover inside centre for the world cup. I'm not sure I'm convinced this is the best plan, it'd be nice to have someone with a couple of recent caps waiting in Blighty to fly out in case of injury.

Well yep the centers picks are interesting at best. However hes pretty much dead set on Tindall being the OC, so that does means theres 2 specialist 12's and 2 possible 12's in the training squad, which means its as well covered a position as any.
Trouble is none of the options really strike as a great first choice.

It was tough on Allen, but the Billy 36 was the 12 for the Saxons despite barely being able to get a game for his club all season (behind err...Allen). Barrit was another contender, but hes been pushed to the side.
Had Barkley not fallen to bits at the end of teh seaosn he might have got himslef into contention.

I dont have a problem with the number of IC's in the sqaud ( Wilko and Flood have both been capped there too) but like most people Im not exactly inspired by who they are. Flutey I think is the real dodgy one who couldve made way for Barrit or Allen.

It was covered pretty comprehensively on the old 606, and there's quite a big possy of England fans who back Allen.

Hape has few supporters outside of the England management I'd say, and with every passing minute of mediocrity, the cases for either Allen or Barritt increase.

The reason I think the topic hasn't been covered lately is that it's pretty clear that MJ doesn't rate Allen, and the fact that Allen has outplayed Hape by some distance over the course of the season hasn't had any impact on selection.

MJ hasn't picked his centres on form, that much is clear, otherwise both Hape and Flutey wouldn't have been picked.

funnyExiledScot wrote:MJ hasn't picked his centres on form, that much is clear, otherwise both Hape and Flutey wouldn't have been picked.

Yes, I think Hape is picked because he best suits the game plan, hence Banahahahan being given some game time as well at IC, despite lacking the ability of Allen or Barritt and Flutey because he can cover fly half (badly, based on recent form).
I can see the reasoning behind MJ's choices, I don't agree with it though.

"I can see the reasoning behind MJ's choices, I don't agree with it though."

That's where I come out as well.

The proposed England WC centres are hardly inspiring.
The current combination of Hape & Tindall makes the England back line solid in defence, but severely limits the attacking potential.
Flutey at IC would improve the attacking options but as noted before, he's been injured and is hardly in form.
The WC squad chosen leaves little option unless one or more of Hape / Flutey / Tindall gets crocked.
Who will get in in that case?
Anthony Allen? I don’t think so for whatever reason his face doesn’t fit.
36 maybe
Barritt maybe
Banahan maybe
But who knows, England’s selection policy for the IC position in particular winds me up no end

Having thought it through a bit more I suppose the trouble MJ has is that there are only so many England games. He needed the team to "bed down" based on who he selected at the beginning of the process, to let people settle into the system. The trouble now is that he perhaps doesn't think he has the game time to try anyone else? I think he does have the time and that Allen should be in the squad, but based on what I've just said and Snoopster/FES comments I can see his logic. Like Snoopster I disagree with MJ. Let's be honest though, he's better qualified than I...

I disagree about Hape improving our defence. On a few occassions he's been out of position creating gaps. Having said this I must admit that there is no guarantee of anyone else being flawless in defence I just think Hape is average, Flutey is not proven to be anywhere near form and our other options are all to play people out of position.

Who would your picks for centre be in the England squad if you were picking.

Mine would be Barritt,Allen,Tuliagi,Tindall and Lowe.

True there isn't much experience there but Barritt and Allen are much better than Hape and Flutey. Lowe is an up and coming youngster.

Flutey has played very little rugby in the last 2 years for 2 sides who are floundering.

Hape is not even club quality at inside centre let alone international.

I think Hape has been uninspiring but not completely useless. I would keep him in the squad for consistency and probably replace Flutey with Allen. The problem is I think we needed to start looking at other options earlier, I'm not sure there is time now. Hopefully Flutey finds some amazing form and doesn't get injured and so we don't have to worry

screamingaddabs how does the inside centre pecking order go for you?

I personally think Barritt is better than Allen. He outplayed him in the recent AP final. Completely outshone Hape in their meeting.

For me Barritt is no 1 by not much then Allen. The rest lag far behind. JTH and Twelvetrees are above Hape and Flutey in my opinion.

At outside centre it's probably Tindall based on experience,Tuliagi,Lowe then Clarke.

In my opinion Barritt is really underrated. Defensively there are few centres better, he regularly gets over the gainline. He always stops his man.He plays to a conservative gameplan but showed he has more to offer when his team play a more expansive style. He has also been very consistent in regards to good form.

Allen and Barritt must be fuming that they have been left at home.

Im a big fan of Allen, dont think Hape and Flutey really deserve to be in the training squad more than Allen and Barritt.

Sam I absolutely agree. Leaving out the two most consistent inside centres of the last 2 years in the AP is madness.

The problem is that MJ has made things worse by continually picking Hape. He can now use the excuse that Hape has international experience as justification for picking him.

Maybe Allen and Barritt won't cut it at international level but we won't know if they aren't given a chance!

To be honest I haven't watched enough rugby to have a proper pecking order. I have been to a number of Leicester games this season when back home and my dad (who has a season ticket) has been telling me he thinks Allen has been playing very well. I haven't seen enough of the players outside of the England or Leicester squads to comment with much authority.

In terms of 36 I don't think he's nearly ready yet. Lot's of potential does not mean "is amazing" or even necessarily "will definitely be amazing". Hape has left me fairly unimpressed. I think he has been below "solid" which to me is the minimum. Too many slips in defensive alignment and decision making. Flutey simply has barely played, and the few times I've seen him (and all the mentions on here) suggest he hasn't refound his mojo.

All this leads me to: I want a better inside centre option, Allen has been playing very well for a high quality club, why not try him. I'm not excluding Barritt etc, I just haven't seen enough to comment really.

screaming abs it looks like we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

It's debatable out of who of Allen and Barritt is better so why doesn't MJ just pick both?

What I can't actually understand is why MJ ignores these two players? Can anyone enlighten me?

I don't believe this rubbish about not enough matches to bed players in because why pick Tuliagi,Sharples etc then?

The warm ups are there for a reason!

I haven’t been able to understand how Hape (despite how rubbish he has been at club level) can continue to get in ahead have Allen who has been brilliant.

I’ve said it elsewhere, I guarantee at some point soon we are going to see a centre partnership of

12. Banahan
13. Tuilagi

I’ve expressed horror at the prospect because I am really not sure Banahan has the wider handling game of a inside centre (he has excellent offloading skills, but what about his vision?), we could be reduced to a bosh and offload game which can easily be nullified.

Tuilagi is going to be the England outside centre for years, but right now there isn’t really a 12 in the setup to guide him into international rugby. At times England are really wonderful at runing promising players, I really hope this doesn’t happen to Tuilagi.

I’d like to see the club partnership of Allen and Tuilagi at international level. Hopefully Twelvetree can get involved at Leicester too so he can throw his name into the mix. Leicester could be without a midfield at all in years to come.

beshocked wrote:Who would your picks for centre be in the England squad if you were picking.

Mine would be Barritt,Allen,Tuliagi,Tindall and Lowe.

Wouldn't have considered Trinder before, but having watched him play well for the Saxons, I'd consider adding him on to that list.

I'd have picked Barritt too, I agree he is very underrated, but I read somewhere that he is injured, would he be fit?

My choice for the England back line following the end of the season would be as follows:

9. Youngs
10.Flood
11.Banahan
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

20.Care 21.Wilkinson 22.Simpson-Daniel

Maybe MJ made his decision from the AP final. He didn't want Barritt because Saracens won and didn't want Allen because Leicester lost.

Leicester and Allen without Manu Tuliagi really missed the attacking threat to worry the powerful Saracens defence.

You are correct though Cumbrian a centre partnership of Allen and Manu could work. I don't think he is injured but I could well be wrong.

Funny exiled there seems to be a lot of power in that backline if not as much speed and creativity. I would be happy to go with that but possibly would swap Banahan for one of JSD,Monye or Strettle.

I think the point is we have alot more options than a kiwi + Tindall.

Both the above would give the opposition more to think about in defence.

I’d pick five centres for the main training squad (dropping a winger) and see who came out the best, I’d pick:

Anthony Allen
Brad Barritt

Manu Tuilagi
Henry Trinder
George Lowe

I know that people might think I’m being naive picking such an inexperienced bunch of players, but at some point soon, this is the reality we are going to have to face up to. Tindall, Flutey and Hape are either getting too old or are simply not good enough anymore.

Whilst I like your premise of picking 5 centres, I couldn't drop Tindall before the world cup (he is the best option in terms of experience and proven ability) and I would keep Hape as a back up - as I said, he's not been woeful. I would take:

Mike Tindall
Anthony Allen
Manu Tuilagi
Brad Barritt (on the recommendation of most on here!)
Shontaye Hape

You also of course have Banahan who is in the squad as a winger who can play centre if required (I think).

funnyExiledScot wrote:My choice for the England back line following the end of the season would be as follows:

9. Youngs
10.Flood
11.Banahan
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

20.Care 21.Wilkinson 22.Simpson-Daniel

Funnyexiled, that's almost exactly what i'd be playing except i'd take out Banahan and have Monye or JSD starting. I can't decide wether i want JSD sat on the bench or not, if he does start in my imaginary time wasting team then i'd have Banahan on the bench, for me he's a good impact sub, but not a starter.

Agree about the centre choices.

Hape i can see just scrapes in but it's annoying but Flutey shouldn't be in there, i don't mind which of Allan or Barrit were picked but either would be better.

That along with Armitage over Goode or Brown is the most annoying pck by MJ. He really does seem to have a proplem with picking some form players unless there are injuries or they are forwards. I guess a part of it may be that he was a forward when he played so he has less experience of the backs subtleties, but if that's the case then Smith needs a kick up the rear and needs to get his point across a bit more.

I wonder what our backs coach thinks about the centre picks?

We all know England have a problem at centre

I know the World Cup is important but what better way to bring a younger / new player along than the current scenario;

Churchill Cup,
An extended training period
A few warm up matches

If this isn't enough to show the management if the player has the right stuff then nothing will be.

There's only one way to get experience,

You only become the best by playing against the best.

As I said earlier mine would be similar to both of yours:

Inside centre
Brad Barritt
Anthony Allen

Outside centre
Manu Tuilagi
Mike Tindall
George Lowe

Yappysnap I absolutely agree with you too but wouldn't mind starting Strettle instead of Banahan either.

G2 absolutely agree.

Maybe we should write a petition to MJ and his coaches.

Beshocked
It's a quiet day I may well do that

I'd rather wait until Youngs, Ashton, Foden and Flood are completely settled before bring in new centres. Maybe Tuilagi will do enough to get in the squad and then force his way into the starting shirt (as he had with Leicester). Then we would

Youngs, Flood, Cueto, Hape/Flutey, Tuilagi, Ashton and Foden.

Is that so bad? We'll have a centre who, if not the best player, has been in and around the team and they know each others plays etc. After the world cup well have experience halfbacks, experienced back 3. Possibly a newer 13 who gained a fair bit of experience. Next 6 nations were can start looking at the centres. I may not agree with all of MJ selections but I do agree with his general method, i.e. bring in some new faces and let them settle before bring in more. It may be frustrating at times but I think it's for the best.

Why can we all see this, but 4/5 of the supposed best coaches in the land can not?

Beshocked i wouldn't mind Strettle either, must say i haven't seen him play much though since he went to the dark side.

I rate Lowe very highly.

Post WC with regards to the centres i think we need to say right bring the youngsters in. We have enough experience around them now to support them.

I do think Banahan will have a say in the centre spots though.

Hammer, I agree except I think that maybe trying out a different inside centre would be a good idea for the warm ups. Hape and Tindall have played together enough that we know their strengths and weaknesses. I don't think it would have hurt to try Allen for one game. I'm not necessarily even saying to take Allen to the world cup, but at least have a look at what he can do and if he turns out to be as good as I think he could be (playing outside his club 10 and possibly inside his club 13!) then take him.

Yappysnap possibly because they are not 4/5 of the best coaches in the land!

Fair enough. With our conservative gameplan he hasn't had much opportunity with tries but you just need to look at his pure attacking stats like clean breaks,defenders beaten etc.

Yes hammerofthunor it is bad. How many matches do plays like Foden,Ashton,Youngs need?

What MJ can't understand is that these players mentioned started off with no international experience and look at them now. Picking in form young players isn't rocket science and has generally been successful.

Constantly picking journeyman in the centre damages the develop of English centres.

Centre is a weakness obviously! Why not strengthen it?!

I would love to see Lowe play for England or (Saxons) Sadly i can't see it ever happening. Looking at the players the management pick they need to follow a criteria of:

Be a massive bosher and hope we get lucky and they turn in to SBW (Banahan)

Be a smaller nippier bosher and hope they turn in to Nonu (Tuilagi/Hape)

Be hyped up by sky sports (all of the above and Twelvetrees/Barkley)

Flutey is a puzzle but then there's always pot luck and he has the right background.

I would love to see an interview with our backs coach and get his thoughts on some of the selections, i know they have to read from a script but still a little bit of insight would be nice.

After the WC i'd say the forwards and backs coach positions should be changed, the current blokes sacked and new people brought in.

I'd also take a look at the defense coach, but then our defense isn't too much of a problem.

But Yappy is it the coaches or the Selectors that are at fault.

If coaches arent selectors they can only work with what they have.
It just seems strange that we...the mere mortal public can see these the issues and yet those in the mix of it...seem to just plod along with it?

I back Johnno...dont get me wrong... but i do think the centre issue is curious.

If we weren't so close to the WC my centres of choice would be Barritt, Twelvetrees, Allen & Tuilagi (Trinder a close challenger and Lowe thereabouts as well).

Allen has had an excellent season, but I don't think he plays IC in the manner that would best suit England. I feel he would serve us better at OC at the moment, a position he has played a number of times in the past and where we'd get the most from his footwork & running lines. He partnered Barritt there in last year's Churchill Cup against USA to very good effect.

If he can get back to his pre-injury form, I wouldn't hesitate in calling Waldouck into the squad, a very classy footballer at his best.

funnyExiledScot wrote:My choice for the England back line following the end of the season would be as follows:

9. Youngs
10.Flood
11.Banahan
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

20.Care 21.Wilkinson 22.Simpson-Daniel

A pretty good selection, but I'd be concerned about not having FB cover.

Tuilagi could cover full back...

Or Wilkinson could.

johnpartle wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:My choice for the England back line following the end of the season would be as follows:

9. Youngs
10.Flood
11.Banahan
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
15.Foden

20.Care 21.Wilkinson 22.Simpson-Daniel

A pretty good selection, but I'd be concerned about not having FB cover.

I suppose you could have Cueto or Moyne on the bench if you were worried about that.

What I like about my selection, other than the fact that it's mine, is the balance of skill, pace and power. I think MJ clearly wants to have his centres on the larger side, but I just think Barritt and Tuilagi give you more dynamism than Hape and Tindall. It's not purely a matter of muscle, but pace and verve as well, that gets you over the advantage line. I think my back line is just that bit sharper, and I don't think I'm giving away anything in terms of power and defence.

Yappysnap if we play Monye in the first team he could cover full back.....

I would sack the whole bloody lot of coaches,selectors and MJ.

Our centres have been rubbish for a long time. Why can the England management not sort it out?

Funnyexiledscot I think your choices of Barritt and Tuilagi doubles the power and defensive abilities. Barritt is the best defender in the centres in my opinion in the AP bar none. Being the lynchpin of the best defence in the AP would back this up.

Please do not even jest boutt hat Beshocked, it's just another example of our brilliant coaches minds at work!

I agree aboutt hose two centres, i can't see them giving anything away in defense and i think we have to take in to account just how solid a full back Foden is, even if they were not as strong as the current pairing i would feel pretty comfortable that our back 3 could cover well enough.

Yappysnap I just checked out Manu Tuilagi's defensive capabilities on the AP website. They aren't great! 9th most amount of missed tackles! He does well in attack though - 5th for most defenders beaten and joint 4th for most clean breaks.

606 darlings like Dowson and Fourie were poor in regards to missed tackles too - 2nd and 10th respectively.

Brad Barritt's tackle count is impressive - 8th most tackles made. The only centre on the list. The rest are backrows.

Neither Dowson or Fourie are on that list meaning they made less tackles than Barritt.

I think you could suggest fairly that Tuilagi would benefit from having Barritt playing alongside. Barritt pretty much runs the Sarries defence, and I reckon would be able to keep Tuilagi doing the right things.

As pointed out, it's in attack where I think Barritt and Tuilagi would really improve matters. Barritt is underrated in this regard, and Tuilagi is full of running and confidence.

At least Tuilagi has made the squad, which suggests that MJ is having a serious look at him.

yappysnap wrote:Tuilagi could cover full back...

Or Wilkinson could.

Given he hasn't even played FB at club level, it'd be a bit of a leap expecting Tuilagi to cover in an international. Monye proved not even more similarily skilled week in week out wingers are necessarily capable of doing a decent job. And I'm not sure it's the best option expecting Wilkinson to cover two specialist positions, especially when one of those is as frontline and pivotal as FH.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I suppose you could have Cueto or Moyne on the bench if you were worried about that.

What I like about my selection, other than the fact that it's mine, is the balance of skill, pace and power. I think MJ clearly wants to have his centres on the larger side, but I just think Barritt and Tuilagi give you more dynamism than Hape and Tindall. It's not purely a matter of muscle, but pace and verve as well, that gets you over the advantage line. I think my back line is just that bit sharper, and I don't think I'm giving away anything in terms of power and defence.

Couldn't agree more with your centre choices, the only thing I would probably tweak would be JSD on the bench. He's completely deserving of his place, but I'd just want to know I had specialist FB cover there if there wasn't another option in the starting backline. Brown is the next best performing FB at the moment, but he's possibly not versatile enough for the bench, I'd be tempted to go for Abendanon or Goode.

The other option for the bench, and more versatile, is of course Armitage. He made a great start in international rugby and then his form dropped, but he does given cover to 15, wing and centre if needed.

Personally I rate him, but I do think he needs to re-prove himself at international level after a mixed and slightly bizarre season.

Abendannon is a player who I think will never quite make it at the highest level. For each occasion he does something brilliant, he then follows it up with an act of madness, and at international level I think he could cost some points.

Mike Brown I rate but only as a 15.

I like Goode, and I really like his ability to hit the line as both a strike runner and a distributor. He really needs to nail down his position though. I can't help but feel that people are waiting for him to play 10, and failing to judge him as a 15, which is the position he's played this year.

He should be in the WC training squad at the very least in my opinion.

The Armitage of a few years ago would have been my first choice for the bench, but that player hasn't been apparent.

Abendannon is a player I probably wouldn't start, but I feel is a good bench option. Those former moments of madness haven't been on display the last couple of seasons, he's definitely tightened his game up. A couple of years ago I would have been very nervous at the suggestion of him.

The backrow and back 3 bench options are tending towards a specialist group of players who have high versatility and/or are able to offer a game changing moment. If your original selection JSD could play FB he would be an ideal candidate.

Allen is too small to play international rugby at IC. He really benefitted last season from playing inside Tuilagi.

Barritt has a bit more physcial presence but is a victim of Sarries limited game plan. At international level he won't always make it two metres over the gainline like he does for Sarries, and he hasn't had any opportunity to show there's more to his game than running into his opposite number and going to ground. Hopefully Saracens will be more expansive next season, and that will help several of their players contest for England places.

Flutey is lucky, but England want a kicking option at 12. If Twelvetrees had played more for Tigers it would be him (5 consecutive starts starts for the Saxons at 12), but Leicester have held him back.

By the 6 Nations I think there are 3 contenders to have taken over the position: Banahan (he'll play a lot at both centre positions for Bath next season), Farrell and Twelvetrees. If Billy had walked out on Leicester this summer he'd be nailed on in my view, but as it is he needs Allen to get injured for a couple of months or he'll have to wait until he leaves Tigers next summer.

Even with Saracens' limited style of play, the idea that Barritt just runs into his opposite number and goes to ground doesn't tally with reality.

Barritt/Allen/EFS

Matches 23/20/21
Passes 161/108/185
Clean Breaks 9/11/14
Offloads 9/10/17
Defenders Beaten 22/23/13
Turnovers Conceded 14/20/26


He pretty much matches Allen for clean breaks, offloads and defenders beaten, but then passes considerably more and concedes turnovers a fair bit less. Even comparing him with arguably the best attacking IC in the AP last year he's not that far off the pace, EFS has the better stats for passes, clean breaks and offloads, but Barritt trumps him in defenders beaten and concedes turnovers a hell of a lot less (not much point in doing something productive if you then lose the ball).

I just think those stats involve numbers which are too small to draw conclusions. So he beats one defender a match on average, makes a pass every 10 minutes (and is that a defence splitting pass, or a 2 metre one? - I know where my money is), off-loads less than every other game?

I'm judging him on what I've seen, and Barritt hasn't shown enough. The standard Sarries move is to pass it to Barritt and have him crash it up or, if they want to move the ball they give it to Goode. When Sarries aren't relying on Goode to do the second distributor role then Barritt might be ready to convince MJ he's better than Hape. Whether that would change the stats much remains to be seen as, to be honest, I don't think I believe the stats.

You may not want to believe them, but they are clear.

I don't trust most people's opinions, they don't watch every match and their view is often coloured by what they've preconceived. They don't see what they aren't looking for.

Ask people who was more of a distributor, and the clouded view from most people on this board would be Allen, yet Barritt passes the ball 50% more.

If Barritt is limited in what he has shown this season, then almost every other 12 and certainly all the England qualified ones are even more limited.