Anthony Allen

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This may have been covered briefly when the squad was announced, but does anyone else think that Anthony Allen should have got a look in for the big pre world cup training squad?

I'm not convinced Flutey has found form and I'm not a fan of Hape particularly, I would have liked to see someone else (my choice would be Allen who I think has performed very well with Leicester) to have been given a go at some point. I suppose Johnson just sees it as too late to do this (and yet Botha, Tuilangi and Waldrom get call ups with no international experience) or he's given the trainee centre spot to Manu and is hoping neither Hape nor Flutey get injured before the world cup. If one of them do then we have just the remaining one and Banahan to cover inside centre for the world cup. I'm not sure I'm convinced this is the best plan, it'd be nice to have someone with a couple of recent caps waiting in Blighty to fly out in case of injury.

I don't think Allen is much of a distributor. Most English 12's are very limited, which is why MJ is happy to stick with Hape because he likes the size and the off-loading. He's looking round for options, and obviously rates Twelvetrees (incidentally, 36's ability to fire a flat 20 metre pass which can be taken in the stride of the outside backs is something which won't show in the stats).

Barritt's stats are very unimpressive. I don't actually believe them though and think he's probably better than those stats suggest. I do believe what I've seen when watching Sarries and their structured game plan though, and that is that Barritt plays a very limited game.

Apart from Hape doesn't offload anymore than the others. He averages 0.41 offloads per game, Barritt 0.39. He certainly doesn't seem to make his size count anymore than Barritt. He does however concede turnovers twice as often a game despite carrying the ball half as much, and passes the ball more than half as much.

I haven't at any point said Barritt's stats are impressive, I've shown simply that he compares favourably if not better than the competition. He's certainly not comparitively limited as many seem keen to assert.

I didn't state that Allen was regarded as a distrubutor, just that most people's clouded view was that Allen was more of one than Barritt (which isn't the case by a significant degree), and that if anything people's opinions are to be trusted less than stats as they are far too often coloured or quite simply haven't seen enough games to give a fully formed opinion.

As I stated in earlier posts, I rate 36 very highly, I see him devloping into an excellent IC, and post WC I hope he is focused upon and given the majority of the opportunities.

I didn't say I thought you said Allen was regarded as a distributor, I was just being clear that I don't think he's a particularly good one (he's got decent basic skills, but no more). And I know you weren't claiming they were impressive stats, I was saying they were unrealistically bad and so I don't place much weight on them.

I'm not a Hape fan, but MJ clearly thinks he's the best option and someone has to make a strong case to replace him. Allen being solid at AP level, and Barritt playing a limited game isn't enough to do that.

Like you I hope Twelvetrees gets lots of game time and that Saracens play a far more ambitious game next season which gives some of their backs (including Barritt) more chance of progressing to international level.

My first post naming Barritt as one of my centres of choice was accompanied with the statement "If we weren't so close to the WC". I wanted him chosen ahead of Hape a year ago, but it's almost certainly too late to start picking him as first choice now.

The point I was picking you up on was your statement that his game consisted purely of "running into his opposite number and going to ground". That just isn't the case.

You've stated you don't believe the stats for any of the players to be correct. I don't concur with that, but even if there have been miscounts, the proportions for the categories wouldn't be far out and they show that Barritt passes as much as he carries,which is more than any of the other candidates, and that he does just as much as them with ball in hand apart from look for contact.

Has anyone seen George Lowe's Wiki page. Hilarious!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lowe_(rugby_union)

Johnpartle you don't happen to have the defence stats do you?

I know Barritt is in the top 10 for most tackles but unsure about his misses. How does he compare to rivals?

Manu Tuliagi has excellent attacking stats but for a centre his defensive stats are poor as example.

Defence is as important as attack in my opinion.

Will Sarries look to be more ambitious in their play with Hodgson coming in? Or has Hodgson been brought in to play the same gameplan?

I do think Barritt and Tuilagi could form a decent centre partnership, however it's too late to bed them in together now in my opinion, I would be highly sceptical about going into any test match with two uncapped centres.

Robbo Hodgson is not exactly known for his defensive capabilities is he?

He will give Saracens another dimension they have lacked since Glen Jackson retired. Saracens will need to attack to succeed in Europe.

A combo of Barritt and Tuilagi would be preferrable to what we have in regards to England even though it would be inexperienced. The best defensive centre in the AP partnered with the best attacking centre.

Allen is obviously not in MJ's good books.

Here you go beshocked. No stats for Tuilagi oddly though.


Barritt/Allen/Hape/JTH/Tindall/Trinder/Lowe/Waldouck

Tackles per match 7.5/7.4/5.6/7.4/6.0/3.3/6.6/6.3
Missed per match 0.4/0.4/0.4/0.7/0.8/0.5/0.6/0.3

Missed as % of made 5/5/7/9/13/16/9/6

Thanks johnpartle. Interesting stats. Where did you get them?

Nothing about number of matches or number of tackles made?

Not surprised Barritt is top but didn't know Allen's defense was that good.

Tindall's stat is surprising.

Hape is not as bad as I thought he would be.

Don't think Tuliagi is there as his missed tackles count is so high. If you don't believe me check out the AP stats missed tackles and Manu is top 10.

Sorry but that George Lowe page is incredible!

flankertye wrote:Sorry but that George Lowe page is incredible!

I know, it's mad aint it! Wiki makes me laugh sometimes. There was a section (now removed) on the Libertines page from a clearly disturbed fan saying that Pete Docherty was his bestest friend and that they should go shopping together. Truly astonishing that anything is taken as fact on that site.

The Telegraph have a very handy stat finder (about the only thing that paper is good for), link.

In the 'player v player' section you can find all the stats for all players in the squads for each of the main competitions, so not sure why Tuilagi wasn't on there, might be because he wasn't listed in Tigers' squad at the beginning of the season.

I was going to post the total matches, tackles and missed tackles (all can be found on the link), but thought it would be easier to compare in this format.

Yes, Cockerill has been praising Allen's defence all season. All the stats I've given were for the AP, as that is the only way to give the players a level field of comparison in terms of the teams they've played against, but Allen's missed tackle rate isn't as good in the HC. 38 tackles made and 6 missed in 6 matches, compared to Barritt's 31 tackles made and 1 missed in 6 matches (you could argue Saracens had the tougher group, eventual winners Leinster, no Italian team, 2 French, Racing & Metro, who finished 2nd & 4th in the Top 14 league).

Sarries gameplan is clear, and they create and score few tries. I think an obvious part of that is Barritt's role in the side, which is all about retaining possession and advancing slowly up the field, looking for penalty opportunities.

You aren't going to convince me that Barritt plays anything over than a very limited gameplan in attack. Defensively he's sound, but given England will concede tries we need the ability to score them.

You're free to arrive at your own opinion obviously, but when the majority of people on this post are saying that they feel Barritt is underated and does more than many people give him credit, something which is backed up by the stats, I would suggest you're missing something that others are seeing and have put your fingers in your ears on the matter.

On the matter of the ability to score tries, I know you don't believe the stats, but they show that Barritt has better try and try assist per match numbers than Hape, fewer TPM than Allen (though not in the HC), but more try assists. In terms of retaining posession, yes he concedes turnovers a lot less than the other candidates, but the stats also show he passes the ball noticably more, not clinging onto the ball and looking to advance slowly up the field as you claim.

I would suggest to you that Saracens' midtable try scoring record for the season isn't as much down to the way Barritt plays as you believe, and has more to do with having a forward dominant game, a novice FH and playing most of the season with wings at OC.

Saracens are about the least expansive side in the league, they go through loads of phases, have loads of possession and yet their backs struggle to create chances and Goode does the distribution you'd expect Barritt to do.

When I next watch Sarries I'll count the number of times he just crashes the ball up. I'll also look for any pass over 5 metres, any kicking from hand and any off-loads and report back. My guess is: 10, 0, 0, 0.

Just to be clear, are you arguing that Barritt doesn't play in a very limited way for Sarries? If so then we'll just have to agree to differ.

What I've said is that Barritt does a fair bit more than simply "running into his opposite number and going to ground", as you claimed. That he passes the ball more than the other players in the running for the England IC shirt. The stats show for every time he carries the ball, he also passes it, 7 times each a match (Hape manges 3 passes & 4 carries, Allen 5 passes & 7 carries, JTH 4 passes & 8 carries).

I don't know why you would only count passes over 5m, not every pass from an IC has to be a missed one. It would be far from unusual for an IC to pass to his OC or a player breaking into the line back inside him. In both cases it would be unsurprising for that player to be within a 5m radius, and surely that counts as not "running into his opposite number and going to ground".

I'll be very interested in seeing the stats you compile and whether they are superior to those provided by Opta. If you feel you can do a better job than one of the world's leading sports data companies, you may find you've stumbled upon a very interesting business opportunity.