Ten reasons why Ali is and will always be the greatest!!

1. Beat the baddest Man on the planet twice..The invincibles ...In Liston and Foreman....
2. Transcended the sport like no other..
3. If Boxing didn't have weight divisions like in olden times he kicks everybodies backside on the list!
4. Until he was ill he avenged every defeat..
5. His calibre of opposition was superb...
6. Went 8 years undefeated at the top before Frazier..
7. 15 years at the top.....longevity not seen before or since.
8. Skill, speed, durability, chin, power....all round greatness with little in the way of weakness.
9. He upset the odds and came back to triumph like nobody before or since..
10. Because there was something superhuman about the guy...He had the x-factor like no one else...

9th and 13th on some of the lists I saw earlier.......makes you want to puke.

I don't have him as my greatest ever that is reserved for Sugar Ray Robinson but he is number 2 by the width of a ball hair. As a fan of defensive fighters Ali is right up their in my book. I don't know how someone couldn't have him in their top 10 but then a lot of people leave Willie Pep out their top 10 which for me is crazy but each to their own.
My lasting memory of Ali strangely is the Holmes fight he was clearly already suffering from parkinsons and the beating he took from a phenomenal puncher in big Larry and his refusal to go down or quit was truly unbelievable and displayed the heart of the man to the fullest.

It's worth noting that Ali himself, who rarely undersold his own gifts, ranked himself second to Robinson, which probably says something. He's fourth on mine, but that's strictly as a boxer, not a personality, superman, ambassador, politician, symbol or icon. He was all of those as well, of course, but if we were to measure them, then Jack Dempsey would have to rank second, I guess, which wouldn't give us the full picture.

Best heavy I'm ever likely to see, but not without flaws and was beaten fair and square by Frazier and Norton, albeit a bit after his prime (only place he got his revenge on Norton was the score-cards by the way; we all know better). In all probability, if he'd been allowed to box between 67 and 70, he'd have shown us virtuosity that no-one has ever even imagined, and he would be ranked top of my lists. He didn't, so he isn't, but fourth best boxer and incomparably most important sportsman of all time isn't bad.

Agreed TRUSS Ali had it all as a boxer and as a figure to represent the sport, but he must give way to Sugar Ray Robinson. Ali's opposition is the key for me. He fought and beat fighters who imo would be champ in any era. Truly special fighters who came around at the same time. And I am not just talking about the obvious choices I also think fighters like Norton, Quarry, Young, Chavalo, and Shavers could hold thier own in any era.

P.S TRUSS I know your dejected article was somewhat HEAVILY influenced by 1 of my earlier articles but I forgive you and I am quite honoured.

Ali was a generous guy likw that and If i'm honest I have Robbo 2nd Captain....

Fact is when you are rating the p4p greatest fighter of alltime it's worth remembering he beats everybody on the list as well as his other achievements...

But to have him 9th and 13th is just disrespectful...

Turned back the clock so many times.....No fighter had more heart, guts,durability chin (later on) ..Robbo might have had sllightly more skill..

You know what I'm getting it..

Appreciate your post....appreciate yours Kev...

Robbo is a good call..but just slightly behind for me.

While I can't agree with your top placing of him, I agree that, in my mind at least, rankings such as ninth or thirteenth are simply far, far too low for him. Nailed on top five / six for me.

I make him the all-time number one in one of the original eight weight classes, and more to the point he did it in the strongest era that particular division has ever seen. Even allowing for the fact that he couldn't move through the weight divisions, Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier, Foreman, Foster, Shavers, Lyle and Norton plus a few others is one hell of a CV. The downside, of course, is that he didn't always deal with them that conclusively, and needed a couple of slices of luck here and there. Not enough to detract from his allround legacy though, in my opinion.

I think with Ali, a lot of it depends on how much value you give to this whole 'transcended the sport' stuff. Personally, it doesn't really enter my thoughts when I rank fighters. It's what they did in the ring which matters most. Have no doubts that Ali was the biggest / greatest icon the sport has known, but that doesn't equate to being the greatest fighter. Boris Becker was more popular, more famous and 'transcended' tennis more than Ivan Lendl, for instance, but he sure as hell wasn't a greater player than him.

Not the greatest for me (at least not in a pound for pound sense) but should be an automatic top five / six man.

Chris I like you Man but Roberto Duran 7th mate...I mean come on.

A fitting tribute to undoubtedly the greatest sportsman that ever lived.

Duran was the best GBB I have ever seen, but TRUSS is right he should be just outside the top ten.

Fists of Fury wrote:A fitting tribute to undoubtedly the greatest sportsman that ever lived.

What the blazes has Fred Trueman got to do with this?

Everybody seems to think so except Boxing fans....

Sometimes wonder if the black panther stuff and Nam is held against him..

Like Floyd big mouths get demoted often.....and people look for the negative rather than the positive..

rowley wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:A fitting tribute to undoubtedly the greatest sportsman that ever lived.

What the blazes has Fred Trueman got to do with this?

I think you mean Max Woosnam.

Good points TRUSS, top 5 for me.

rowley wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:A fitting tribute to undoubtedly the greatest sportsman that ever lived.

What the blazes has Fred Trueman got to do with this?

Rowley is always hitting and running these days..

Wish the geoffreyrowley would comeback..

The guy that could debate!!! Now windy has to do it for him..

The problem is being American I back up my argument with valid points...

Yet most people on here say yes he's 5th on my list and can't formulate an argument why...

The Captain, Chris and kev formulated one but you guys just can't muster up a base to debate..

You don't deserve the debatable honor of being British..

Hewas always a hit and run type of guy TRUSS but I have found out the hard way on the old 606 that you DONT mess with rowley. The man has POWERFUL friends in high places.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem is being American I back up my argument with valid points...

Yet most people on here say yes he's 5th on my list and can't formulate an argument why...

The Captain, Chris and kev formulated one but you guys just can't muster up a base to debate..

You don't deserve the debatable honor of being British..

If you are talking about me, I didn't say 5th.

Truss would happily debate if you would offer something worth debating rather than the same guff you post every time someone has the temerity not to put Ali top of one of these SUBJECTIVE lists, as it is have no real desire to go over ground that has been gone over innumerable times.

Also may find people more inclinded to treat your threads with a little more respect if you didn't write stuff like that anyone who happens to rank a fighter lower than you choose to rank them makes you want to puke, but that's just my opinion.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Chris I like you Man but Roberto Duran 7th mate...I mean come on.

That's just my opinion though, Truss, and for what it's worth I wouldn't entertain the idea of Duran being ahead of Ali, much as I love him. There are definitely some areas where Ali can't be surpassed; simple fame, transcending the sport, being an icon to many in popular culture. But I don't think it's all that crazy to suggest that there are at least three or four men who can match or beat him when it comes to (collectively) opposition beaten, longevity, dominance of their era etc.

Plenty of decent opinions on here already Jeff.....Now find another thread to write "Vlad" and "rolled like a drunk on...." like you do all the time lately..

Still think my ten points hold up well Chris.....

longevity and skill set, coming back and upsetting the odds..

also he beats everybody else..

Starting to agree with you onetwo and that's scary..

Truss would happily debate if you would offer something worth debating rather than the same guff you post every time someone has the temerity not to put Ali top of one of these SUBJECTIVE lists, as it is have no real desire to go over ground that has been gone over innumerable times.
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Another cheap pop at TRUSS. TRUSS has written a unique article here that express his view of Ali. I read his article and cannot find any fault with it, now if you do find fault than TRUSS is more then happy to listen to your views but the Fred Trueman comment was not needed and did not add anything to the debate.

I don't know hat's wrong him lately....

Always having cheap pops....but hey freedom of speech...

Valid and heartfelt thread with what I consider to be pretty good points...certainly unwarranted "guff"...

If windy posts we'll have his opinion anyway.

Calm yourself onetwo, sir. Jeff threw that in as a little Yorkshire joke, was hardly capable of single handedly derailing the thread.

I think Truss can defend himself.

As for the article, top 3 for me. Beautiful to watch, fantastic skill and the determination to win to back that up. Absolute first class CV with no other heavy comparing. Involved in two of the most famous fights in the history of the sport.

Only SRR and Homocide Hank rank higher.

Armstrong's longevity not a problem ...

Sure he ad some great names but to rule for 15 years is a long time Lumbering.......and to defy the odds....

Thanks for your opinion...

Calm yourself onetwo, sir. Jeff threw that in as a little Yorkshire joke, was hardly capable of single handedly derailing the thread.
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The ancient Romans had a saying Fury...

God protect us from the bite of the snake,
the jaws of the lion
and the vengence of Mr rowley

Calm down Onetwo....

Don't flatter him with the attention..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Armstrong's longevity not a problem ...

Sure he ad some great names but to rule for 15 years is a long time Lumbering.......and to defy the odds....

Thanks for your opinion...

To be honest, ask me after I've just watched some footage of Ali and that could all change, he'd be at number one. I think if he hadn't been jailed he would possibly be viewed at the top of most peoples list rather than his usual 3/4 spot. Ali was a master inside and outside the ring. First class.

Think sometimes that his out of the ring activity does hurt his standing Lumbering....

To me the guy had the Xfactor..very few people have it..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Everybody seems to think so except Boxing fans....

Sometimes wonder if the black panther stuff and Nam is held against him..

Like Floyd big mouths get demoted often.....and people look for the negative rather than the positive..

If you're gonna hold him up on personality and impact & actions outside of the sport, then the negatives you mention have to be taken into account also.

They were extras Balti..

10 points if you look Mate...

People often bring up his actions outside the ring as a reason to bump him up lists but to expand on a point made earlier the same is not often done for other fighters. Take John L Sullivan for instance, was as hugely popular as Dempsey, Ali or any other fighter you would care to mention in his day and was instrumental in legitimising and easing the transition from bareknuckle to gloved era and the process of the sport gaining acceptance and legality, which is about as significant a contribution to the sport as anyone could hope to make, but few if any bump him on lists on the back of this.

For me lists like this should be solely on in the ring activities and as such for me there are at least three or four guys with a good claim to be above Ali. If you want to discuss significance to the sport that is a different matter and obviously one Ali is pretty peerless in, but for me is a totally different debate to the best fighters of all time and should be treated as just that.

Thank you..your opinion is most welcome.....

It's Vlad...roll with it!!

Ignore me Truss am in a bad mood, still maintain finishing a thread with makes me want to puke and then complaining about people not treating it with reverence is a little rich but if I've not got used to your little ways by now would guess I'm never going to.

AND IT'S WLAD!!!!!

rowley wrote:Ignore me Truss am in a bad mood

Stick a bit of Def Leppard on, Jeff. Always works for me.

You're forgiven....never been personal in 6 years Rowley..

Not going to start now...

As for puke...always been conservative in my use of words..

Would respond Chris but fear if I go off topic again Onetwo and Truss may hunt me down, would hate to get on the wrong end of a spinning back fist.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They were extras Balti..

10 points if you look Mate...

Just saying, that's most likely why people hold those things against him. Personally I don't have time or patience for lists.

And it's Wlad.

I thought I was onetwo

twenty years with the same girl...makes a spinning back fist sound amenable!!!

Truss
I agree with every word of this.

If you take the whole package, ali has to be number 1... if you're looking at ring achievements only, you can make a case for him slipping to top 5, but any lower is an insult. No-one is above debate and its perfectly reasonable to question his achievements as we do everyone elses... as sometimes the icon can overshadow the man. However, for me, you really do forget about robbo and ali and start your all time p4p list debate at no 3, usually with hank.

Captain made the point about the missing years, and we can only summise whether they would have been his peak.... the assumption given his age is yes. He was certainly a different fighter afterwards, so it's also possible we did see the best of him. Like many, i'd have loved to see how Ali would have handled Frazier in the late 60's... a defining fight at the peak of his powers. would have answered any outstanding questions. He answered all the others though.

SRR and Ali stand out for me in two ways... untouchable in their prime and highly competitive for years after it. Ali in particular re-invented his style to cope with the fact that his footwork was just a memory. Almost 2 different fighters with 2 different styles. In doing so, he showed us he had the chin and the heart of a true champion (in retrospect he probably showed us too much) not just the talent.

Truss have to take issue with the third point, the whole idea beyond P4P lists is to render this point redundant. Truth is Danny Williams would kick Ricardo Lopez' butt, am not sure the idea Williams deserves be be above Lopez is one that would get too much support from fans of the soprt.

Truss am always a little loath to post this as it comes across as a little insulting and superior but think in a lot of instances there is an element of intellectual snobbery in putting Ali so low on lists. Were you to ask the average man in the street the best boxer or heavyweight they would say Ali. As hardcore boxing fans do think there is a slight temptation for us to try and find people to beat him because to run along with the ordinary fans suggests for all our reading and research we know little more than them.

Personally whilst I can fully see an argument to have guys above him, I personally have him at 5 but agree to have him outside the top ten is taking this to extremes slightly although ultimately these things are subjective.

rowley wrote:Truss am always a little loath to post this as it comes across as a little insulting and superior but think in a lot of instances there is an element of intellectual snobbery in putting Ali so low on lists. Were you to ask the average man in the street the best boxer or heavyweight they would say Ali. As hardcore boxing fans do think there is a slight temptation for us to try and find people to beat him because to run along with the ordinary fans suggests for all our reading and research we know little more than them.

Personally whilst I can fully see an argument to have guys above him, I personally have him at 5 but agree to have him outside the top ten is taking this to extremes slightly although ultimately these things are subjective.

No doubt.

rowley wrote:Truss am always a little loath to post this as it comes across as a little insulting and superior but think in a lot of instances there is an element of intellectual snobbery in putting Ali so low on lists. Were you to ask the average man in the street the best boxer or heavyweight they would say Ali. As hardcore boxing fans do think there is a slight temptation for us to try and find people to beat him because to run along with the ordinary fans suggests for all our reading and research we know little more than them.

Personally whilst I can fully see an argument to have guys above him, I personally have him at 5 but agree to have him outside the top ten is taking this to extremes slightly although ultimately these things are subjective.

I actually think you're right there Rowley, although it is only an opinion. Posted something similar on the old 606. Like you, though, I'm a little reluctant to say it with any conviction as ranking fighters is purely down to the individual. I personally can't see any way that he can be lower than, at the absolute most, eighth / ninth, but it's horses for courses.

alma wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:While I can't agree with your top placing of him, I agree that, in my mind at least, rankings such as ninth or thirteenth are simply far, far too low for him. Nailed on top five / six for me.

I make him the all-time number one in one of the original eight weight classes, and more to the point he did it in the strongest era that particular division has ever seen. Even allowing for the fact that he couldn't move through the weight divisions, Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier, Foreman, Foster, Shavers, Lyle and Norton plus a few others is one hell of a CV. The downside, of course, is that he didn't always deal with them that conclusively, and needed a couple of slices of luck here and there. Not enough to detract from his allround legacy though, in my opinion.

I think with Ali, a lot of it depends on how much value you give to this whole 'transcended the sport' stuff. Personally, it doesn't really enter my thoughts when I rank fighters. It's what they did in the ring which matters most. Have no doubts that Ali was the biggest / greatest icon the sport has known, but that doesn't equate to being the greatest fighter. Boris Becker was more popular, more famous and 'transcended' tennis more than Ivan Lendl, for instance, but he sure as hell wasn't a greater player than him.

Not the greatest for me (at least not in a pound for pound sense) but should be an automatic top five / six man.

To be able to come back after three years out and still beat the supposedly unbeatable Foreman is a hell of an achievement

Absolutely, alma, one hundred percent. Ali returning from a three year layoff to be the dominant figure in the best ever era for the Heavyweights stands as one of the greatest feats of them all. It's difficult enough to evaluate whole careers, let alone certain sectors or single achievements in them, but I'd state that, in terms of who accomplished THE greatest feat of the lot, I simply can't look past Armstrong.

Apologies, as I know I've posted this before. But let's take someone like Salvador Sanchez, rightly regarded as one of the greatest Featherweights of all time. Now, after winning the title there and scoring many top class wins as he did, can anyone really imagine him being able to jump up to Welterweight to dethrone Ray Leonard, dropping back down to Lightweight to take the title from Alexis Arguello (all within a year) and then, not long after that, boxing a draw with Hagler for the Middleweight belt? How about Saddler, after winning his Featherweight title, doing the same against Gavilan, Joe Brown and then Robinson respectively?

I think most people would have him as a top five boxer ever.

The way they would rank him in that list would not offend or bother me, I'd have him high (2nd behind Robinson) but respect anyones opinion enough to not argue with any top five place.

One area where I have to jump on though as it was a comment made here:

Quote Truss - Sometimes wonder if the black panther stuff and Nam is held against him..

Like Floyd big mouths get demoted often.....and people look for the negative rather than the positive..

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Now for me if anything the black panther and 'nam situation go FOR him rather than against. I like the fact he was a free thinking he stood up for his beliefs and didn't just roll over and do what his country expected him to.

I would be very surprised if anyone in this country even has this aspect of his life as a consideration - I believe I am one of a few who has more respect for people who go against the grain and judge situations in context to their life rather than as a collective whole.

The Floyd comparison isn't as far as I can see relevant. Being a big mouth may get him rated lower by some, having a comparitively weak resume compared to others is what tends to get him ranked lower by most.

[quote="88Chris05"][quote="alma"]

88Chris05 wrote:
Apologies, as I know I've posted this before. But let's take someone like Salvador Sanchez, rightly regarded as one of the greatest Featherweights of all time. Now, after winning the title there and scoring many top class wins as he did, can anyone really imagine him being able to jump up to Welterweight to dethrone Ray Leonard, dropping back down to Lightweight to take the title from Alexis Arguello (all within a year) and then, not long after that, boxing a draw with Hagler for the Middleweight belt? How about Saddler, after winning his Featherweight title, doing the same against Gavilan, Joe Brown and then Robinson respectively?

Chris, holding the belts at the same time was arguably the greatest achievement ever, I'd agree. You are making a bit of a stretch here though. Armstrong was clearly a genuine lightweight at that time, so to fight at that weight and reign at welter so long is to me his most amazing achievement, he didn't have to drop weight to fight ambers, so the standout performance for me was giving the weight away and beating Ross a great fighter in his own right. The Hagler Garcia analogy is pushing it... armstrong had already beaten him at welter. So the size/weight differential was not quite as unsurmountable as sometimes alluded to. I'd almost go so far as to say that was his lalonde moment! None of this is to denegrate his real achievements which were exceptional.

Be interesting to see how history treats pbf and pacman retrospectively, who on paper have made similar leaps, allbeit whilst actually gaining the weight

Milky PBF an Manny are interesting ones, think the thing that you could potentially count against them is you would have to look and ask how many of the divisions they have visited have either of them either beaten the established man at the weight or gone on to establish they are the man at that weight. Don't know the answer but am fairly sure it is a lot less than the 6 to 8 divisions they have annexed suggests.

Is perhaps a little harsh because in these days of multiple belts it is sometimes easier said than done, however would add this probably does not hold for those two because when you are the biggest PPV stars in the world you can normally pay enough money to bring any opponent to the table.

Would also add a lot will depend how often or frequently their feats a repeated, with 17 weights and 4 belts in each have to think in years to come we may see more than a few fighters rack up belts in five + divisions which obviously will take a little sheen off their acheivements but guess time will tell.