Should a sexist institution like St Georges host the Open ?

First topic message reminder :

Bearing in mind that the Open is the pinnacle event in the British golfing calendar, should it be awarded to a club that will not permit half the British population as a member ? OK, it probably wont even consider 99.9% of the population but if you are a woman it's not even up for debate. I believe someone high up at the R&A was recently asked this question and his answer was it wasn't up to the R&A to influence social engineering. What a wonderfully enlightened man he must have been.....
So for me I can accept that they have a right to be a male only institution, however I'd equally have to say that such an institution should not be considered fitting to host the Open.
I thought Id post this thread after freading an article by Matthew Syed in this mornings Times by the way...not a Guardian in sight....

super_realist wrote:Matthew Syed is an excellent read...

Missed this. Can't stand the pompous t**t!

Yes it has often offended me that the ladies get to play a shorter course

bluefoxgolf wrote:But it would appear from the score card that there are no Ladies tee's. Be interesting to know how ladies play it each year.

Bluefox - see my comment a few back from your's. There are indeed no ladies' tees.

Diggers wrote:I actually would D4S.

I refuse to believe that anyone would turn down the opportunity to play Augusta.
In financial terms (however irrelevant the argument may be) I'd happily pay more to play Augusta than any other course in the world, maybe that's half the attraction, only a very select group of people get to play the course.
I look beyond the bigotry and won't let others prejudices get in the way of my enjoyment

Grizzly wrote:I look beyond the bigotry and won't let others prejudices get in the way of my enjoyment

Now that is an inflammatory comment. Good luck!

Grizzly wrote:

Diggers wrote:I actually would D4S.

I refuse to believe that anyone would turn down the opportunity to play Augusta.
In financial terms (however irrelevant the argument may be) I'd happily pay more to play Augusta than any other course in the world, maybe that's half the attraction, only a very select group of people get to play the course.
I look beyond the bigotry and won't let others prejudices get in the way of my enjoyment

Someobody with big enough cahoonas to say what everyone else is probably thinking

MustPuttBetter wrote:Just because they choose to exist as a male only membership, surely doesn't necessarily mean they have a negative view on women generally does it?

No, I'm sure they need waitresses and barmaids and someone to do the cleaning. They just don't want women on the course. I wonder what would happen in a fully-qualified female greenkeeper (and there are some) turned up for a job ....

Maybe we are ALL missing the point here. If there are no ladies tees on RSG but they do allow women to play the course, that says to me that they regard women as equals

LP - we've established that ladies are welcomed onto the course haven't we?
Of course there are qualified female greenkeepers in existence. Who knows if they have any.

My point was, just because they choose to be a 'men's club' doesn't mean they have a prejudicial/discriminatory view on women.
There are women only swimming clubs and i know a girl who goes to one. She doesn't hate men.
If i choose to have a cup of tea it's not because i hate coffee.

What i'm trying to say is there is a difference between choice and discrimination. Too often people assume them to be one and the same.

This goes back to the days when we had a 3 tier society, the rich the middle class and the rest of us, those want to keep this thing going should now realise that woman has the vote, and can even be Prime Ministers!.

These places the same as August are full of old has beens, who do not believe that golf is a sport, but a means of doing business, hopefully when they die off(sometimes very soon) the younger generation will see the errors of the old brigade and put things right.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Grizzly wrote:I look beyond the bigotry and won't let others prejudices get in the way of my enjoyment

Now that is an inflammatory comment. Good luck!

Well it wasn't meant to be navy, just a recognition that bigotry exists in all walks of life and if you let it get to you the chances are you'd be suicidal in no time...

The question posed by Diggers was: Should RSG host the Open in light of its membership policy. Yes or No, but the debate has now moved all over the place, personal choice, sexism, descrimination, biggotry et al.

I enjoy playing golf with mates and do boys away trips both home and abroad. But I enjoy playing golf with the wife too, therefore we are both members of the same club. I think RSG is a backward, outdated exclusive club, and for that reason shouldn't be holding the event. I don't give a toss about RSG or anywhere else who are a bit insular and respect that it's their right, but wouldn't want to become one of them.

You could make the same argument for racial discrimination MPB. They might be quite happy for a black guy to drive a bus they are on but they just wouldnt want them in the clubhouse. Sure women are good for certain things but they wouldnt want to play golf with them.........

Digs, no you couldn't

Skin colour aside there is no difference between a black person and a white person whereas there obviously are differences between male and females (or they wouldn't have seperate changing rooms and indeed seperate competitions).
There is no reason other than bigotry for excluding a black person whereas there are quite conceivable reasons why they may choose to be a men only club, just like at the swimming pool or Ann bloody Summers evenings for women.

Look, they may well be bigots - i'm not saying they're not - but they also might not be and it's a bit much to just assume they are simply because they have created a men only membership.

Doc - did you want us all to just answer 'yes' or 'no'??

MPB - I can see the reason for seperate swimming sessions and exclusive Ann Summers evenings, I cannot see a reason for Men only clubs, please enlighten me.

bluefoxgolf wrote:MPB - I can see the reason for seperate swimming sessions and exclusive Ann Summers evenings, I cannot see a reason for Men only clubs, please enlighten me.

I'm not really sure why they would not want women at their club either?!? Can't see that they would make any difference whatsoever especially when an old private club like RSG is probably quiet 90% of the time, regardless of the exposure given to them by The Open.

Ann Summers parties are just a bit of fun that men would not wish to partake in. Swimming sessions are no different to RSG and Wimbledon is arguably worse than RSG because of it's infringement of employment laws...

Surely the same reasons but reversed BlueFox??

I would assume the reason for an Ann Summers party is to have some time with the girls, talk about 'girly things' without a male's opinion, and play with various toys without feeling uncomfortable about a man being there.
Can chaps not use a golf club for the same reasons? Maybe they want to swear, drink and run around with their bums out, i don't know!

Tell me, have you never been out with the guys and said to the missus 'sorry love, you're not invited, this is a boy's night'??

I do from time to time. She does likewise. What's the difference between that and putting together a bunch of guys who like to play golf and say 'sorry darling, this is for the guys' ?

Sharrison - having women around wouldn't make any difference to me. I wouldn't exclude women and wouldn't want them excluded from my club.

That said i don't necessarily see the harm if other guys (or girls) would want to.

MPB, I get what you are saying but those are just suggestions. It would be interesting to ask someone at RSG exactly why they do not wish to have women members - I'm sure that his answer would not be "because we like running around with our bums out." Then again, you never know with them old public school types...

Sharrison - ha ha no probably not, although a little bit of me wants that to be the reason.........

MustPuttBetter wrote:Sharrison - ha ha no probably not, although a little bit of me wants that to be the reason.........

If it was that would negate this debate for me completely. Imagine some stuffy old committee member using that as their reason - they would be an absolute laughing stock.

I'm smirking now thinking of an old boy in his red military gear with all his medals, an oversized moustache and a brandy giving that as their answer...

For those saying they do not care for a men only club and would not join, somehow thinking this justifies the stance that it is ok for the R and A to get away with sexism I ask you the following question.

I do not care for an organisation like the KKK and I would not join such an organisation. Does this however mean that it should be allowed to continue, after all it is a private club, or should something be done to stop groups who you may never belong to from practicing discrimination?

It is also laughable to bring up the examples of female only clubs as is men face the same discriminatory issues to the same degree, might these clubs not exist exactly because of the discrimination women have faced throughout the history of golf?

Even if this was not the case it is still true that in golf and sport in general woman face huge disadvantages, patronising opinions and discrimination. The powers that be seemingly ignoring blatant sexism from a club and rewarding it by allowing it to hold the worlds premier golfing event in no way helps. The idea that a club exists which flaunts the law and gets away with it is bad enough but to then give it the open is unreal.

Do not even get me started on the PC and private clubs can do what the like arguments, as it is just too incomprehensible to tap into the daily mail style views which govern peoples misunderstanding of these concepts.

Harrison - If this was the case why do they allow Ladies to play and have access to all areas (accept Mens lockers I guess).

Like me you are clearly guessing the reasons. I have no objection to male/female only organisations in general my concern for golf is that itdoes does nothing to dispel the widspread myth that the running of the game is dominated by while middle/upper class men.

McLaren wrote:I do not care for an organisation like the KKK and I would not join such an organisation. Does this however mean that it should be allowed to continue, after all it is a private club, or should something be done to stop groups who you may never belong to from practicing discrimination?

Not really a fair comparison there Mac

As far as I know the R&A or Royal Saint George haven't (yet) advocated killing women or making them wear burning tyres or terrorizing them with flaming crosses

Mac, I think that there is a big difference with the KKK as they actively practice hatred towards other groups of people and encourage others to do so. RSG does nothing of the sort and as a private organisation should be left well alone to run it as they please.

As for "awarding" RSG The Open, I think that there is more to it than the way that the club at RSG is run. The R&A has a sole aim to put on the best golfing spectacle that they can and unless they decide to change their intentions to aim at making a difference to society then RSG hosting it is not a problem. If they decide that sending out a message is more important than putting on a good show then this would be a different conversation and a lot of the Open venues would be changed.

Mac, the comparison between RSG and the KKK is just ludicrous.
One exists out of hatred and a desire to hurt etc and the other exists because a bunch of guys wanted to enjoy a hobby with other guys.

I'll ask you the same question i asked earlier - have you never been out with the guys and said to the missus 'sorry love, you're not invited, this is a boy's night' ?

I'll assume you have and therefore what's the difference?

I am not a Guardian reader...I don't wear sandals nor do I eat lentils or hug trees. However private clubs CANNOT make their own rules over discrimination. If we took that line to the ultimate then they could make up their own rules about licensing matters, health and safety and whatever else. The fact is that clubs are part of society and so should obey society's rules I'm off to read the Daily Mail and whatever rant they are on about today.

I'll ask you the same question i asked earlier - have you never been out with the guys and said to the missus 'sorry love, you're not invited, this is a boy's night' ?

No, I always ask my girlfriend if she would like to come when I go out. of late I have got her into watching football and some of the nights watching Man Utd in those glorious european nights with her are amazing.

Mac, so you've never had a night with the guys where you haven't invited the girlfiend?? Wow

In view of that, you presumably know guys that sometimes do. Or at least have heard it happens. Are they basically KKK members too?

MustPuttBetter wrote:Mac, so you've never had a night with the guys where you haven't invited the girlfiend?? Wow

In view of that, you presumably know guys that sometimes do. Or at least have heard it happens. Are they basically KKK members too?

MPB, the fact is that if you said that to your other half what would presumably ensue is a debate as to whether she could...or you could....go or not. No such debate at RSG, no winkle, no membership.

That's not the pont Digs.
The debate i might have with the wife still wouldn't change the fact that she/i wasn't invited. A debate can no doubt be had about RSG by whoever wants to have it but it, again, won't change the outcome.

We can surely accept that from time to time guys like to spend time with other guys and women like to spend time with other women. It happens in every italian coffee shop at lunchtime and every pub in the evening. I have been on stag do's where women are not invited. I have sat at home whilst my wife has gone for dinner with 'the girls' and i was not invited. This is not discrimination or hatred. It's part of life and no-one has a problem with it.
I can't therefore, for the life of me, see why it's a problem that the members of RSG want it to be a men's club

Am I the only one who doesn't bother telling the missus when I'm going out ? A text at midnight usually starting 'sorry babe' followed by a promise to buying a new handbag and/or dress.....

I dont agree, you are comparing a social gathering which your missus may well veto to a set of rules stringently laid out.
What RSG do is deliberately set out to exclude a group of people from our society.
Going back to the topic of the my thread I dont dispute their right to do this.........though I would never do so personally.....but I do disagree that such an institution should be allowed to hold a national sporting event.

Honestly it is not 1950 and my group of friends includes the same amount of guys as girls. Thank god I am not subjected to lads nights out, it seems like a real closed minded affiar.

Diggers wrote:.... no winkle, no membership.

I'm really sorry, I know this is incredibly immature of me but that had me in stiches (and got a few funny looks across the office!).

I can just imagine someone from the RSG committee saying that to a female!

It's exactly the same Digs
If being a member of a golf club isn't being part of a social gathering but on a larger scale then what is it?
RSG haven't excluded anyone from society. They've just excluded them from being a member of their club, the same as i occasionally do when out with the guys.
By holding the Open at RSG the R&A aren't promoting hatred, bigotry or anything like that. They're simply holding at a men's club, nothing more (in my view)

Mac, my group of friends has as many girls as guys too.

If you're so offended by the idea of saying to the girlfriend 'i'm having a drink with the guys tonight' i think that says more about your views than mine. You obviously live in a different world to me where ladies don't meet up for lunch etc as it's close minded?!

McLaren wrote:...of late I have got her into watching football and some of the nights watching Man Utd in those glorious european nights...

Makes me want to vomit. Watching Man Utd????

Well if you believe that to be exactly the same MPB I fully believe that excluding a race is exactly the same as excluding members on grounds of their sex. And I have no doubt the reason they exclude women has nothing to do with needing an extra set of changing rooms.
I firmly believe it does promote bigotry on an institutional level and a club such as RSG should be shunned and not lauded.

"Well if you believe that to be exactly the same MPB I fully believe that excluding a race is exactly the same as excluding members on grounds of their sex"

I don't think you do Digs and i don't think anyone else would

Presumably you are completely against stag and hen parties?

When you go on a stag do MPB dont you socialise with women during the event, I know I do. They certainly arent male only affairs.

They are to an extent
Are you trying to tell me that women (or at least selected women) are not excluded from stag parties???

The point i'm trying to make with the stag/hen thing is that whilst it is not socially acceptable to have white only gatherings or black only gatherings, it is accepted in society that from time to time some things are men only and some things are women only. I don't make the social rules but that is how it is.
If we accept that, how is what the members of RSG done any different?

The issue I have is that what RSG do is institutionalised sexism. They lay it out on paper that they wont accept women.
You can keep saying that a one off social meeting is the same thing, but you are not remotely convincing me that it is.

drive4show wrote:
By the very nature of sport, there will and MUST be segregation of the sexes. Imagine the outcry if one of the Klitscko brothers stepped into the ring and landed a punch on a female boxer!

Did Laura Davies change sports?

Digs, i'm not saying one off.
In Surrey there is a ladies in business networking lunch thing. They meet every week. They have deemed it a ladies lunch type affair.
These things happen in society every single day.

Is it only sexism if it's written down? (as the ladies business thing is)

Tell me how RSG is any different to the multitude of other gender specific clubs and activities that happen and are acceptable in our society?

McLaren wrote:Honestly it is not 1950 and my group of friends includes the same amount of guys as girls. Thank god I am not subjected to lads nights out, it seems like a real closed minded affiar.

Do your nights out involve car keys and a bowl?

I read an article a while back, can't remember where, but it compared humans to any other form of mammal in that they will always choose to be amongst other mammals that are most like them. In understanding that ideal and recognising that segregation is actually a subconscious choice that most people make, as long as there is transparency as to why there is segregation there should not be an issue with it.

In this case, the RSG members don't want women to see whatever they get up to and on the flip side of that, women will probably not want to see it either...

Lairdy wrote:

McLaren wrote:Honestly it is not 1950 and my group of friends includes the same amount of guys as girls. Thank god I am not subjected to lads nights out, it seems like a real closed minded affiar.

Do your nights out involve car keys and a bowl?

Sounds like they don't involve anything like the fun that this could end in. More of the polite conversation type where small talk is the topic of the day...

MPB yes writing it down and forming an organisation does make a difference. Plenty of people are casually racist in this country, lets not pretend we dont all know someone who is racist to some degree, but forming a society to express those views is a different matter.
Again Im not saying RSG should not be allowed to exist much as I find its rules pathetic, I am saying it shouldnt hold a nationally televised sporting event.

I just really don't get this at all.

There are male only establishments, there are female only establishments and there are mixed establishments. What on earth is the problem? Move on people, it's called life!

Jeez, next there will be people whinging that children are being discriminated against because they're not allowed to drink in pubs until they are 18......