'Well if you can't beat em' should have been the caption...

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

Rugby commentator Keith Quinn has labelled plans by the England team to wear an all-black strip at the Rugby World Cup as ''crazy''.

''Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'' he said.

''They are thumbing their noses at a New Zealand tradition. It's bizarre."

The new away strip will feature when England kick-off their World Cup campaign against Argentina in Dunedin on September 10.

"The decision is certain to ruffle a few Kiwi feathers and could even spark a diplomatic row with the host nation before a ball has been kicked," The Daily Mail reported.

The shirt and the shorts of the new strip are understood to be jet black, with no other colour except for the Red Rose badge.

The iconic All Blacks jersey has a 127-year history, dating back to 1884. England's new away strip will be officially unveiled by Nike on August 1.

Quinn suspected jersey sales were behind the move.

''They will often switch jerseys so people have to buy the new colour."

The New Zealand rugby public would not be happy, Quinn said.

"I don't think they will throw things, but they will be scornful of England coming into our territory wearing black."

Asked what he thought of the English team's new black away-strip, lock Ali Williams said "I couldn't care what they wear. It's training stuff, not what they play in."

When told it was what they would play in, Williams replied: "Oh it is? All black? Let's hope they don't play us then. It'd look funny, two teams running around in black."

England's move to black also diminished its own proud red and white history, Quinn said.

"It's crazy."

While officially England's away strip, it will be worn for their three World Cup warm-up matches in August and for their tournament opener.

It could be worn for other pool games and beyond, however should England meet the All Blacks in the final they would return to their traditional white uniform.

England's training kit for the World Cup also has a Kiwi twist - with a red rose crest on the chest surrounded by ancient Maori symbols and decorations.

England players were not asked about the colour of the new kit, but were understood to be excited about wearing it even though they risk upsetting the host nation, The Daily Mail reported.

The English Rugby Football Union have spoken to their NZRU counterparts, who reportedly said they had no objection to the black strip.

The All Blacks will unveil a new high-tech jersey against South Africa in their opening Investec Tri Nations match at Westpac Stadium on July 30.

In 2007, a lost coin toss meant the All Blacks had to wear their silver away strip for their ill-fated quarter final against France in Cardiff.

France wore a blue jersey some believed had been darkened in a deliberate move to force the All Blacks out of their iconic strip into the alternate jersey.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5289989/England-go-all-black-for-Rugby-World-Cup

Don't see any problem... If they think it will make them play better all good. Just a little odd.

Don't see why it would ruffle feathers and the NZRU have said they didn't have a problem with it though you'd think strategically people could come up with better ideas?

by ML Fri 15 Jul 2011, 2:57 am

It will upset the NZ fans though - and rightly so. But as we all know the RFU is run by morons. They probably didnt even consider anything but the revenue stream.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:09 am

England alias Nike must have a huge wardrobe department,they are always putting out new gear,didnt they put out a new kit to commemorate th're latest grand slam victory?

by **Notch** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:11 am

Cheeky!

It shouldn't upset NZ fans. They don't have a monopoly on the colour black. And it's a change strip- to be used against teams with whom their is a clash. It doesn't affect NZ.

by doctor_grey Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:16 am

I don't like it at all. Our nations are known by our colours. The colours are almost symbols. Ireland wear green, Scotland wear blue, Wales wear red, the ABs wear black, and England wear white. Erm, oh, well, except when England wear purple, or blue, or grey or now black. Its all about selling more jerseys. Nothing more. I really don't care if England dress like Mr. Blobby in the warm up matches. But in the RWC, tradition please...........

by aucklandlaurie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:23 am

i wonder if England have thought this right through,.Dont they realise that anyone wearing black must be a cheat in the eyes of the Australians..

by robbo277 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:53 am

Sorry, but is this not a hoax? Along the lines of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

Let's just look at that photo of Jonny in the article, it's an obvious fake. I could photoshop better than that. For a start, Jonny has never lined up a kick wearing an all black kit, so the fact that he is doing it in that "photo" should ring alarm bells.

England DID bring out a grey kit, we wore it against Australia last Autumn. But the RFU actually consulted with the NZRU to make sure we weren't "ripping them off". See the full link here!

The idea of Johnson's men competing in black, in New Zealand, would seem dubious and another affront to tradition on both sides of the world. But the RFU have raised the notion with their counterparts in Wellington and the NZRU have indicated that they would have no objection.

Non starter for me.

by boomeranga Fri 15 Jul 2011, 3:59 am

The Grey Ghost is probably behind it - First NZ players, now NZ kit.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 4:06 am

and Martin Johnson came down here and pinched one of our women.

by Rob B Fri 15 Jul 2011, 5:00 am

Good to see England are focussing on all the critical things to win the RWC - like the colour of their outfits.

Maybe Paddy's brigade will mistake them for the ABs so the forwards can play to their own rules. Very Happy

by **Biltong** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 7:19 am

Well if they wear black jumpers it would not be a problem until they meet the All Blacks, then they will have to wear white anyway.

Duh!

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 8:19 am

Black's not exactly the luckiest colour in the Rugby World Cup, do they know what they're getting themselves in for?

by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 8:53 am

as indicated by other poster, New Zealand do not have the monopoly on the colour black, but I think (and feel free to correct me on this) is the term "all black" not a trademark?

But I digress, what would bother me more is the fact that England seem to be ignoring their traditions, white is normaly their home shirt and a red variant is their away shirt. The purple one they have currently is nearly as bad as that Salmon coloured one Scotland had in 1999.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:03 am

doctor_grey wrote:I don't like it at all. Our nations are known by our colours. The colours are almost symbols. Ireland wear green, Scotland wear blue, Wales wear red, the ABs wear black, and England wear white. Erm, oh, well, except when England wear purple, or blue, or grey or now black. Its all about selling more jerseys. Nothing more. I really don't care if England dress like Mr. Blobby in the warm up matches. But in the RWC, tradition please...........

Youll probably be very upset by the Welsh away shirt then ...its ....black. As is Canadas.

You do relaise that sides have to have a change strip dont you? England usually have red, the traditional colour of Wales. Purple was a pretty safe bet I guess but that just offended everyone because it wasnt a proper rugby colour.

South Africa have a white change shirt (offensive to England and Luke Watson?), lets not even go there!

If you want to be offended , you can be.

Im not sure about this article anyway, its not a hoax is it? I havent seen anything else about the ENglnad change strip ...not that it bothers me.

by beshocked Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:06 am

England's colours are white and red. Is it so difficult for Nike to understand that?

I already knew Nike knows nothing about rugby and know the best way to embarrass themselves but you think they would have learnt by now!?

by G2 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:09 am

Money, money, money.

Perhaps the RFU is trying to raise an extra few bob so they can pay all the lawyers & consultants fees resulting from the current board problems.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:17 am

G2 wrote:Money, money, money.

Perhaps the RFU is trying to raise an extra few bob

So what are they doing thats any differnet to any other Union?

by Portnoy Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:22 am

It is entirely true that the ABs have never worn the iconic all-white strip (except that is when they have).

This article is just silly.

by propdavid_london Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:42 am

This is such a wind up - you are right robbo, that photo is a bad fake.

I did quite like that graphite colour kit they had last season though.
At that centenery (classical) kit when they beat Wales 2 seasons ago was pretty cool.

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:45 am

Jesus, it's a change strip. Everyone moaned about the purple one so now everyone will moan about the black one. Don't Wales also have a black change strip? No one seems to be moaning about that. Haters gonna hate.

I believe the doctored photo is only there to show what it would look like as the original is right next to it.

by HammerofThunor Fri 15 Jul 2011, 9:54 am

It's better than the purple. I prefer to the last WC home strip with the red ribbon thing. It's better (IMO) than the yellow (sorry I'm mean Gold) Welsh one. It kind of makes sense that the other kit is black if the home one is write. After all they can't both clash then.

The article says the All Blacks kit goes back to c1887 but I thought they used to where dark green or something like that until 1900s. Or is that another of those dodgy internet (and newspaper) rumours?

EDIT: Perhaps it's at the request of Hartley, Hape, Flutey and Waldrum (I thought I might as well say it before GG gets here)

by chewed_mintie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:24 am

Why does Nth Hem rugby have to follow football all the flamin' time? The alternate strip - NOT away strip - should be worn when there is a clash with the opposition, not at every bloody opportunity. All it is designed to do is increase profits, "oooh, the new England kit is out, I MUST get the new black one to go with my purple and grey abominations".

Thank god I can still wear my 2004 version of the AB jersey without feeling that it isn't the same as any other adidas version.

We kiwis DON'T have a mortgage on the colour of mourning, but this is taking the urine isnt it? I mean, who are England going to clash with kit wise at the WC? Are they expecting to play Fiji?

by chewed_mintie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:27 am

Hammer, the early NZ versions were deep blue until Thomas Ellison in the late 1800's (the godfather of rugby coaching) opined that it should be black. NZ Natives tour around that time was first team to wear black I believe ( organised by Ellison )

by welshjohn369 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:29 am

Sorry but NEATH RFC had the right to the ALL BLACK strip and were ready to take New Zealand to court over it. Neath wore black years before the NZ team did.

by HammerofThunor Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:36 am

chewed_mintie wrote:I mean, who are England going to clash with kit wise at the WC? Are they expecting to play Fiji?

Possibly. If Fiji come second in the pool and beat Australia/Ireland in the QF AND England top the group and beat French in QF.

It's more to with the sponser/manufacturer. The yellow Welsh one was for SA Gold (or St. David's flag depending on whether you're naive or not).

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:37 am

chewed_mintie wrote:Why does Nth Hem rugby have to follow football all the flamin' time? The alternate strip - NOT away strip - should be worn when there is a clash with the opposition, not at every bloody opportunity. All it is designed to do is increase profits, "oooh, the new England kit is out, I MUST get the new black one to go with my purple and grey abominations".

Thank god I can still wear my 2004 version of the AB jersey without feeling that it isn't the same as any other adidas version.

We kiwis DON'T have a mortgage on the colour of mourning, but this is taking the urine isnt it? I mean, who are England going to clash with kit wise at the WC? Are they expecting to play Fiji?

Firstly rugby is a code of football.

Secondly all teams have to have a change strip, and at the world cup its not up to them when they were it and when they dont.

Thirldy if you are from Cheshire why are you so obsessed iwth the All Blacks anyway? Its not good pulling the " I was born in New Zealand" thing, it never stopped Hape , Flutey and the rest of the England team donning the red rose jersey.

Fourthly New Zealand are one of the biggest whores of their name and image going, even to the point where tribes are threatening to withdraw their approval of the use of the Hakka due to xcommercial exploitation. New Zealand play games in Hong Kong and Japan for commercial reasons. They have a huge contract with Nike which includes the players doing all sorts of stupid promotional events. It doesnt make them bad people, it keeps the game alive.

Fithly there are two teams using black change kits at the world cup (Canada and Wales)

Finaly ...Its pretty certain that this is joke/hoax poking fun at Englands New Zeland contingent.

Truely this sums up the majority of peoples attitude, if its England its wrong.

by HammerofThunor Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:42 am

And apparantly the New Zealand change kit is a white shirt Shocked

Perhaps they hope our superior WC record will rub off Smile

by aucklandlaurie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:42 am

PSW
I didnt know the All Blacks had a contract with Nike......

by HammerofThunor Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:44 am

Addidas isn't it? England's is with Nike. They're all the same really

by caoimhincentre Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:48 am

Portnoy wrote:It is entirely true that the ABs have never worn the iconic all-white strip (except that is when they have).

This article is just silly.

I can't believe this guy is calling someone else article silly. laughing

by **Biltong** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:53 am

What is the fuss all about, it is just a jumper, after all.

by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:53 am

Well I think the French dark blue shirt with Nike was worse. I don´t think you should be able to change your home strip willy-nilly. There should be clear boundaries for that. As for the away strip, then come out in beige, pink with purple spots, or any other colour that takes your fancy. Because there shouldn´t be too many clashes with the traditional home strip the way the jersies stand at the moment.

by chewed_mintie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:54 am

Welshjohn, I know about Neath's claims I wasn't disputing this, when I said about NZ Natives being the first I meant NZ team.

PSW - I might be in Cheshire but I'm not from Cheshire! Also AB's sponsor is Adidas not Nike but as someone pointed out what the hell is the difference anyway?

If it is a joke, it's a bad one. Seeing it has been broadcast on Talksport and reported in the Mail......oh hang on, it must be a joke if it was in that paper!!

What I am interested to know is what was England's alt strip in the amateur days?

by **Biltong** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:54 am

Wait till they move the silver fern, Rose, or wallaby to the sleeve like they do with the Springbok emblem this RWC, then you have something to make a fuss about.

by chewed_mintie Fri 15 Jul 2011, 10:59 am

Tragic biltong, really is a shame.

Entirely unrelated, one of the first SA players that got my attention on the 1994 tour, other than Theo van Rensburg (who was humiliated by Wgton mascot 'Leo the lion') was a winger called Caboos van der Westhuizen. Wild eyed and hair to match....what happened to him? He was pretty good as I recall!

by disneychilly Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:00 am

I'm kind of glad the ABs don't have Nike now cause I'm sure they would have messed with the jersey far more than Adidas. I really like the last AB jersey with the fern motif over it. Subtle yet very cool. Have it in white.

Peter Seabiscuit the use of the haka is the least of our worries with regard to Maori claims. Check out the foreshore and seabed issue amongst others, there are a lot of issues there that rile us depending on our views.

At least the anthracite and purple were original LOL.

Welshjohn can you provide some more info on Neath's black shirt? Think I've heard some of that before it's interesting.

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:03 am

chewed_mintie wrote:Welshjohn, I know about Neath's claims I wasn't disputing this, when I said about NZ Natives being the first I meant NZ team.

PSW - I might be in Cheshire but I'm not from Cheshire! Also AB's sponsor is Adidas not Nike but as someone pointed out what the hell is the difference anyway?

If it is a joke, it's a bad one. Seeing it has been broadcast on Talksport and reported in the Mail......oh hang on, it must be a joke if it was in that paper!!

What I am interested to know is what was England's alt strip in the amateur days?

Cotton traders first introduced a change strip in 1990. It was blue. Before then the England strip had always been plain white. The only reason extra colours were added was because Cotton traders decided to sell the kit to the public so wanted to be able to change the kit from time to time! Here is quite a good website on the history of the England kit.

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:10 am

Isn't the Welsh 2nd shirt Black too?

I think its a nice idea, what better way than to acknowledge what the all blacks mean to the rest of the rugby world than to dedicate their 2nd shirt to the host nation, English and Welsh fans will were it with pride.

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:14 am

McCaw isn't bothered

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10738735

by sirtidychris Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:17 am

i think its a disgrace, whatever anyone says black is the new zealand colour they are the 'All blacks' and it gives them a huge amount of national identity and going to there country where rugby and tribal tradition has merged and wearing this strip is so disrespectful.

As an england fan im really upset with this decision, going over to new zealand for the world cup i will generally be disliked anyway just for being english ! but now my national team is wearing a black shirt with maori bloomin symbols on it i!!

To the numpties in suits that run the rfu and make these decisions its another great PR stunt and money earner, but i will be embarrased to watch my national team take to the field in new zealand wearing the new zealand kit and i hope all the other games we play are in white.

by BATH_BTGOG Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:18 am

I like the idea and will be buying it, if its a true story?

by welshjohn369 Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:21 am

This is from the Daily Telegraph 2003.

I think if this had gone to court New Zealand would have lost the battle.

The New Zealand Rugby Football Union are refusing to budge in a row over copyrighting in the face of legal threats from Neath.

The Welsh club have been known as the All Blacks for 123 years - 25 years longer than the New Zealand national team - but the NZRFU have applied for a trademark which would force Neath to go to court if they wanted to continue using their historic nickname on club merchandise.

NZRFU deputy chief executive Steve Tew said yesterday that it was the first he had heard of Neath considering legal action.

"All we are doing is protecting what is New Zealand rugby's to protect, because we have 120,000 members who want us to," Tew said. "We're not trying to stop them using the name, but if they want to use it for their intellectual property as associated to ours, then we will have a concern."

Tew said the NZRFU had not heard directly from Neath but would be happy to discuss the matter. "If Neath have got an issue then we'll engage in a conversation with them, but we don't anticipate having one," he said.

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Neath adopted their black jersey adorned with a Maltese cross following the death of one of their players, Dick Gordon, from injuries suffered in a match against Bridgend in 1880.

Black was worn as a mark of respect. The club became known briefly as The Mourners as well as the All Blacks, and have worn the jerseys ever since. New Zealand were first called the All Blacks on their 1905 tour of Europe.

"We're the original All Blacks, they shouldn't worry about being the second-best All Blacks," Neath's chief executive, Mike Cuddy, said. "They know we're called the All Blacks. We haven't even had the decency of a phone call from them."

Cuddy said the club were considering applying for a trademark on the name for Britain and Europe.

by **Biltong** Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:23 am

chewed_mintie wrote:Tragic biltong, really is a shame.

Entirely unrelated, one of the first SA players that got my attention on the 1994 tour, other than Theo van Rensburg (who was humiliated by Wgton mascot 'Leo the lion') was a winger called Caboos van der Westhuizen. Wild eyed and hair to match....what happened to him? He was pretty good as I recall!

Cabous v d Westhuizen played for the sharks quite a number of years, he always reminded me of the true durbanites, surfboard, a bit to smoke, and laidback.

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:24 am

sirtidychris wrote:i think its a disgrace, whatever anyone says black is the new zealand colour they are the 'All blacks' and it gives them a huge amount of national identity and going to there country where rugby and tribal tradition has merged and wearing this strip is so disrespectful.

As an england fan im really upset with this decision, going over to new zealand for the world cup i will generally be disliked anyway just for being english ! but now my national team is wearing a black shirt with maori bloomin symbols on it i!!

To the numpties in suits that run the rfu and make these decisions its another great PR stunt and money earner, but i will be embarrased to watch my national team take to the field in new zealand wearing the new zealand kit and i hope all the other games we play are in white.

Wow, untwist those knickers mate. It really doesn't matter. So are you going to get all het up if the All Blacks play in their WHITE change strip? What colour would you like our change strip to be? Seeing as most are already taken by first strips you are going to step on someone's toes!

Simmer down fella, you'll do yourself an injury.

As to being disliked for being English, personally i'd like to bless our international cousins with a slightly less blinkered view. Or maybe it's from your own personal experience. If that's the case...

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:31 am

Here's the version off the RFU store site. Not quite black to be fair.

Spoiler:

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:39 am

Thanks Kiwi. Looks like a slightly darker version of our change kit now. Scandal over move along please!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:51 am

Carpe Diem wrote:Thanks Kiwi. Looks like a slightly darker version of our change kit now. Scandal over move along please!

Indeed.

Actually (as was pointed out by people in the Welsh kit discussion here) there's some distinct similarities Whistle

Spoiler:

by nathan Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

Rob B wrote:Good to see England are focussing on all the critical things to win the RWC - like the colour of their outfits.

Maybe Paddy's brigade will mistake them for the ABs so the forwards can play to their own rules.

i dont think it was the players and coaches that have been spending the time on this!! :p

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 15 Jul 2011, 12:00 pm

Blimey Kiwi, that is a similar looking shirt. I do quite like them both though. Looks like black is the new.... black!

by HammerofThunor Fri 15 Jul 2011, 12:04 pm

Slight point over Neath. It was the term "All Blacks" they were disputing not the colour of the kit. It's 'believed' the cause of the black Neath kit is the death of a player but not proven. Both started wearing black around the same time (in 1880s). But what is true without a doubt is that Neath were called the All Blacks before the All Blacks were. There was a cornish side called the All Blacks but they were forced to remove the name (it was relatively recent). They had worn a black kit for a lot longer however and that was never an issue.

Maybe Neath should take the kiwi's to court?

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