'Well if you can't beat em' should have been the caption...

by Taylorman Fri 15 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

First topic message reminder :

Rugby commentator Keith Quinn has labelled plans by the England team to wear an all-black strip at the Rugby World Cup as ''crazy''.

''Of all the colours in the rainbow, why would they choose the colour of the host nation?'' he said.

''They are thumbing their noses at a New Zealand tradition. It's bizarre."

The new away strip will feature when England kick-off their World Cup campaign against Argentina in Dunedin on September 10.

"The decision is certain to ruffle a few Kiwi feathers and could even spark a diplomatic row with the host nation before a ball has been kicked," The Daily Mail reported.

The shirt and the shorts of the new strip are understood to be jet black, with no other colour except for the Red Rose badge.

The iconic All Blacks jersey has a 127-year history, dating back to 1884. England's new away strip will be officially unveiled by Nike on August 1.

Quinn suspected jersey sales were behind the move.

''They will often switch jerseys so people have to buy the new colour."

The New Zealand rugby public would not be happy, Quinn said.

"I don't think they will throw things, but they will be scornful of England coming into our territory wearing black."

Asked what he thought of the English team's new black away-strip, lock Ali Williams said "I couldn't care what they wear. It's training stuff, not what they play in."

When told it was what they would play in, Williams replied: "Oh it is? All black? Let's hope they don't play us then. It'd look funny, two teams running around in black."

England's move to black also diminished its own proud red and white history, Quinn said.

"It's crazy."

While officially England's away strip, it will be worn for their three World Cup warm-up matches in August and for their tournament opener.

It could be worn for other pool games and beyond, however should England meet the All Blacks in the final they would return to their traditional white uniform.

England's training kit for the World Cup also has a Kiwi twist - with a red rose crest on the chest surrounded by ancient Maori symbols and decorations.

England players were not asked about the colour of the new kit, but were understood to be excited about wearing it even though they risk upsetting the host nation, The Daily Mail reported.

The English Rugby Football Union have spoken to their NZRU counterparts, who reportedly said they had no objection to the black strip.

The All Blacks will unveil a new high-tech jersey against South Africa in their opening Investec Tri Nations match at Westpac Stadium on July 30.

In 2007, a lost coin toss meant the All Blacks had to wear their silver away strip for their ill-fated quarter final against France in Cardiff.

France wore a blue jersey some believed had been darkened in a deliberate move to force the All Blacks out of their iconic strip into the alternate jersey.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5289989/England-go-all-black-for-Rugby-World-Cup

Don't see any problem... If they think it will make them play better all good. Just a little odd.

Don't see why it would ruffle feathers and the NZRU have said they didn't have a problem with it though you'd think strategically people could come up with better ideas?

by snoopster Sun 17 Jul 2011, 5:58 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Really? Argentina didn't go with a black away kit just to "mark the occassion"?

How traditional of them.

I was referring to their traditional home kit - I have no idea what their away kit is and it isn't relevant since they're drawn as the home team.

by Hood83 Sun 17 Jul 2011, 6:03 pm

snoopster wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Really? Argentina didn't go with a black away kit just to "mark the occassion"?

How traditional of them.

I was referring to their traditional home kit - I have no idea what their away kit is and it isn't relevant since they're drawn as the home team.

You're right, i'm being daft and so is GG. My bad.

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:42 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:The issue is that England dreamed up this black kit just in time for the RWC in NZ. England have never used a black away kit before. Certainly not one with a Koru design featuring prominently.

Have you seen the fury being directed in the direction of a certain French player for appearing in a fashion magazine with a fake moko?

Traditional values are fiercely coveted and protected in some part of the world, and while I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the AB kit is as sacred as the tradition of moko, I'd say there is an equivalent in terms of commercial revenue in the global economy, and I'm surprised that trademark issues haven't been pursued by those with vested interest.

Ta Moko!! You know I have many many Maori friends and I have asked them about their Ta Moko, "All about my whakapapa bro" they answer. Ask them to go a bit deeper and explain the Ta Moko and how it associates with the Ta Moko and there is usually an excuse to ruch away. Most Maori these days have Ta Moko on their body but really don't know anything about them. This is not a mockery of Maori but a true reflection of current day Maori having to haul about anciaent rights and beliefs screaming into the 21 Centurty. Little wonder many Maori go over to Australia to escape.

This is not the place to discuss NZ culture and politics but when a culture wants money and the rights over television and radio waves because they cross over their land, and a road can not be built because a Taniwha "Water / cave spirits" live near by it is plain to see there is much dispute between people.

Still as long as I see Maori sporting Celtic designs others can have Maori designs....fairs fair after all:)

by Taylorman Mon 18 Jul 2011, 6:19 am

"This is not a mockery of Maori but..."

too late...

by **George Carlin** Mon 18 Jul 2011, 6:39 am

To be announced shortly:

The Nike English Haka, where the entire team face their opponents on the half way line and have a nice sit down on their own all black rickety barstools and bitch about the weather whilst drinking a mug of Tetley with five sugars in it.

And obviously there will be a huge delay in it starting, with no reason given, just an insincere Tannoy announcement from some bloke with a nasal Home Counties accent.

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 6:46 am

Taylorman wrote:"This is not a mockery of Maori but..."

too late...

No it's not, that's just the problem innit, Harewera can rant on and on about the 'whites and Asians' and be as racisit as he wants but woah betide any White telling the truth about Maori.

AND JUST TO KEEP IT RUGBY ORIENTATED

What does everyone feel about Hone Harewera's mother and other maori demonstrating at rugby matches during the world cup??

These right wing rasists have no place in New Zealand ,,,,, yes maori right wing racists intend to isrupt the World Cup.

NOT only that the laughable but exsisting Mongerel Mob are backing the mana party!!!

Thank God Cook found New Zealand thats all I say.

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:00 am

This is not the place to discuss NZ culture and politics but when a culture wants money and the rights over television and radio waves because they cross over their land, and a road can not be built because a Taniwha "Water / cave spirits" live near by it is plain to see there is much dispute between people.

I agree this probably isn't the time or place, but I have just one more comment to make since it rounds off the point I made earlier in response to the actual posting topic. A tremendously professorial Maori leader once suggest that some Maori have become "defined by their grievance", a consequence of the length and ardure of the struggle to assert their ethnic identity and protect their cutlure against a century when they were legitimately under attack and marginalised through confiscation of lands, and outlawing of the language and customs. Some arguments seem outrageous to us now, but then so did some of the resolutions that we agree now are their rights now. I suspect some of these people you mention fit into that category.

Personally one of the things I love about NZ is that it must be one of the few places in the world where can have a motorway re-routed to avoid a Taniwha. If this apparently nonsensical notion comes from the same protective spirit that has prevented our foreshores being sold off to international private hotel consortiums to balance the governments books in the short term, (as much of the prime shores of Europe have, and Asia are becoming) then personally I think sometimes it's reasonable to go the extra mile to try to understand a completely different point of view.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:04 am

Whereas the Irish happily built a motorway through Tara to help boost the economy. That worked well didnt it guys!

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:10 am

Maori have become "defined by their grievance",

Unfortunately an excuse made so many times it defies belief. Alcohol, tobacco and drugs all blamed on others. There is a time when Maori need to accept responsibility for their own actions and accept that the remainder of the population of NZ ain't going nowhere.

Wales had land, it language both written and spoken stolen from them by English legislation. We got them back and in all honesty live quite happily with our English neighbours (despite some of us wanting to be independet:) ).

Maori need to come into the 21st century because Taniwha or any other cultural fences will be ignored. It's not a completely different point of view, it's a deliberate ploy to upset the applecart.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:18 am

TheGreyGhost wrote:
personally I think sometimes it's reasonable to go the extra mile to try to understand a completely different point of view.

honestly though thats not the first thing that springs to mind when i think of you GG

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:24 am

Welshjohn you have exactly the kind of eurocentric attitude that is unhelpful.

Everyone is in the 21st century, we just believe different things. There are plenty of people in lots of different cultures who believe untenable things regarding gods and deities and these impact "real world" decisions all the time.

There is no comparison between Wales and the Maori I'm sorry, it's just two completely different things.

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:30 am

Hardly gg.

So it's ok for Harewera and his whanau to disrupt the rugby world cup?

It's ok for the economical infrastructure of NZ to be held ransom by hocus pocus?

THe majority of NZ are now saying NO, which includes the 'free' maori seats in parliament.

You are right there is nothing similar to Welsh and Maori, Wales moved on, the only time you see Druids now is at Eisteddfods.

In fact going on from the Ta Moko, unless it is done to old way they are not Ta Moko. Therefore 99% of the patterns are meaningless and not Ta moko.

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:39 am

So it's ok for Harewera and his whanau to disrupt the rugby world cup?

We have a democratic right to protest in free western civilizations. That's the way it works in the 21st century right?

It's ok for the economical infrastructure of NZ to be held ransom by hocus pocus?

To the same extent that Christianity, Hinduism or Islamic beliefs impact unrestrained economic growth, yes. That seems reasonable.

You are right there is nothing similar to Welsh and Maori, Wales moved on, the only time you see Druids now is at Eisteddfods.

The word you are looking for is subjugated rather than moved on.

In fact going on from the Ta Moko, unless it is done to old way they are not Ta Moko. Therefore 99% of the patterns are meaningless and not Ta moko.

I couldn't comment, I'm no expert on this. I suggest you are being flippant, deliberately attempting to be provocative and made up the 99% statistic though.

Anyway, this whole topic is just getting uncomfortably far from anything vaugely construed as relevant so I suggest we leave it.

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:50 am

[quote="TheGreyGhost"]

So it's ok for Harewera and his whanau to disrupt the rugby world cup?

We have a democratic right to protest in free western civilizations. That's the way it works in the 21st century right?

Well you are not a "Western Civilisation" are you? Well Maori certainly don't want to be unless it's the old cheque from WINZ each week! I am, however, over the moon that you support the scum known as hone harewera and his ilk disrupting the Rugby World Cup. Kinda shows your mentality and how far down the food chain you lurk.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:23 am

welshjohn369 wrote:
You are right there is nothing similar to Welsh and Maori, Wales moved on, the only time you see Druids now is at Eisteddfods.

.

True the Welsh learnt how to use their semi fictional historic culture for political and commercial exploitation years ago.

Still youre right there is a lot of cross border culture trading still going on despite undercurrents. Building a resevoir over the last proper Welsh speaking village to supply water for Liverpool hasnt stopped half of North Wales buying Liverpool FC shirts for example. Just in the same way that proud Moari warriors like Rikki Flutey arent so mortaly offended by any treaties their ancestors were tricked into signing that they wont come and wear the traditional black shirt of England.

Lets all have a big rainbow hug Smile

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:24 am

Well you are not a "Western Civilisation" are you? Well Maori certainly don't want to be unless it's the old cheque from WINZ each week! I am, however, over the moon that you support the scum known as hone harewera and his ilk disrupting the Rugby World Cup. Kinda shows your mentality and how far down the food chain you lurk.

I don't think it's fair to suggest that "Maori" are all on WINZ benefits. I'd suggest that was a racist implication.

I also think that your description of Hone Harawera is pejorative, however you are entitled to your opinion.

I think your comments equally reflect on yourself, and I'm interesting to see that you don't support the democratic process or freedom of speech. Again, you are entitled to your opinion.

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:25 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
welshjohn369 wrote:
You are right there is nothing similar to Welsh and Maori, Wales moved on, the only time you see Druids now is at Eisteddfods.

.

True the Welsh learnt how to use their semi fictional historic culture for political and commercial exploitation years ago.

Still youre right there is a lot of cross border culture trading still going on despite undercurrents. Building a resevoir over the last proper Welsh speaking village to supply water for Liverpool hasnt stopped half of North Wales buying Liverpool FC shirts for example. Just in the same way that proud Moari warriors like Rikki Flutey arent so mortaly offended by any treaties their ancestors were tricked into signing that they wont come and wear the traditional black shirt of England.

Lets all have a big rainbow hug

You've missed your calling. You should have been a diplomat.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:26 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler, what's a 'proper Welsh speaking village?'

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:38 am

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler, what's a 'proper Welsh speaking village?'

Wasnt it the last one to be pure Welsh speaking? They kept banging on about it before the last 6 nations anyway. I dont really care, you dont actually expect me to properly research things to base my wild mildly offensiuve opinions on do you ? This is the internet man!

by welshjohn369 Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:56 am

Yeas a village was destroyed for a lake to rise and that a resevoir can water Liverpool. Mind you there may be a mighty taniwha in too Smile

If there is we'll put it down it would have got lost somewhere along the way!!!

It would be statistically correct that many Maori's are on state benifit despite their bitterness. 75% or so of out prisons are full of ...yeah yoy guessed it.

Thefts and other horrific offences against tourists committed by....yup.

The Harewera whanau have caused trouble and are despised by many Maori and white. I think there is now a time for Mr Brash to campaign against NZ getting together and if the Maori don't want it tough.

Semi fictional history, interesting take on 2,500+ years.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:07 am

welshjohn, the concept of the druids was revived by Iolo Morgannwg for the modern Eisteddfod. 'Semi-fictional history' isn't far off in that instance.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:15 am

Folks, while the Maori/Welsh "history" stuff is interesting, it isn't really rugby related. And has nowt to do with English rugby jerseys. Thoughts on moving it down to it's own section under "off-topic"?

Also, just to correct WJ's stat, as at last September 51% of NZ's prison population was of Maori descent. While 15% of the general population identified themselves as Maori in the last Census

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:22 am

welshjohn369 wrote:
It would be statistically correct that many Maori's are on state benifit despite their bitterness. 75% or so of out prisons are full of ...yeah yoy guessed it.

Thefts and other horrific offences against tourists committed by....yup.

I really hope you can substantiate those claims, otherwise they'd be horribly prosecutable racist libel.

Hint: You can't because the most recent prison ethnicity census shows you are horribly wrong. Suggest you retract it.

The "thefts and other horrific offences against tourists" is an interesting claim. I hope you have some verifiable evidence to back up that claim.

by nottins Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:33 am

Not quite sure you're in a position to tell someone to back up their claims....

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:39 am

welshjohn369 wrote:Semi fictional history, interesting take on 2,500+ years.

Well quite. When exactly did Wales come into existance?

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 1:43 pm

nottins wrote:Not quite sure you're in a position to tell someone to back up their claims....

Someone should. He's talking Love sacks.

by nottins Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:42 pm

[quote="TheGreyGhost"]

welshjohn369 wrote:

I really hope you can substantiate those claims, otherwise they'd be horribly prosecutable racist libel.

.

Which person has been libelled ?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:48 pm

All, I've posted the correct figures on the NZ prison population above, now please drop it.

by yappysnap Mon 18 Jul 2011, 2:52 pm

What is this i've stumbled in to?

Personaly i have no problem with Englands Black Kit, just a shame i can't find a purple top for the wife, any one know where to get one?

As to the black kit, well it's obviously meant to be a bit cheeky and get a reaction, but then it is better then 30,000 fans being tricked in to lifting up the nike logo prior to a game...

I wish England used Kooga or Cotton Traders personally. Or Raging Bull.

by snoopster Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:00 pm

yappysnap wrote:As to the black kit, well it's obviously meant to be a bit cheeky and get a reaction, but then it is better then 30,000 fans being tricked in to lifting up the nike logo prior to a game...

I think the biggest reason for it is to give it marketing value as a WC souvenier for England fans - if Nike could, they'd have brought out a special WC (white) home kit for England... since they can't this is the next best thing.

by nottins Mon 18 Jul 2011, 3:03 pm

yappysnap wrote:What is this i've stumbled in to?

Personaly i have no problem with Englands Black Kit, just a shame i can't find a purple top for the wife, any one know where to get one?

Try here: http://www.eggcatcher.com/index.php/rugby-replica-kit/england.html?garment_type=332

by HammerofThunor Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:25 pm

Just to make it clear, the maori designs are on the training kit not the black shirt.

by Portnoy Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:30 pm

One thing's for sure - Ireland's change strip won't be orange.

Or will it?

by damngoodOvalball Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:33 pm

I have just had a read through the comments under the shirt story on Planet Rugby. Some of them are unbelievable! This is becoming the next great kiwi whinge after "food poisoning wah wah wah", "haka in the changing room wah wah wah", "wayne barnes wah wah wah".

It is an outporing of bigoted bile that makes GG seem like he is sound of mind.

Its a shame there isnt a world cup for being precious as the Kiwi's would actually win it

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:36 pm

I think the prime minister of NZ made some fairly scathing comments today, suggesting England were "wannabes", were being provocative and may be in danger of bringing down a hail of abuse on England fans foolish enough to buy and wear the black strip. Recall the "Ritchie McCaw is a cheat" banner video?

Personally I think the prime minister should have been more responsible and not inflamed the subject any more. Perhaps "We welcome England, and their black shirt tribute to our world cup, and thanks for letting us borrow Twickenham". That's what I would have said if I were the overmaster.

by damngoodOvalball Mon 18 Jul 2011, 4:46 pm

Surely a Prime Minister should have more important things to do?

by nottins Mon 18 Jul 2011, 5:15 pm

damngoodOvalball wrote:Surely a Prime Minister should have more important things to do?

Like governing a country, not worrying about the colour of someones shirt ?

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 5:20 pm

http://www.stylewithheart.com/house-of-lords-debate/

by maestegmafia Mon 18 Jul 2011, 5:22 pm

English journalist Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail has this to say

Titled by the journalist "It's there in black and white... English rugby is now a laughing stock"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2015811/Martin-Samuel-Its-black-white--English-rugby-laughing-stock.html#ixzz1STUR9L8m

by damngoodOvalball Mon 18 Jul 2011, 5:27 pm

The dailymail would probably headhunt GG if they stumbled across any of his rants. Change a few words (English for Immigrants etc) and he exactly fits the narrow minded mold* of journalist that theyre after

*not a typo

by HammerofThunor Mon 18 Jul 2011, 7:42 pm

maestegmafia wrote:English journalist Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail has this to say

Titled by the journalist "It's there in black and white... English rugby is now a laughing stock"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2015811/Martin-Samuel-Its-black-white--English-rugby-laughing-stock.html#ixzz1STUR9L8m

Typical guff (from the Mail not you Maesteg). No mention that several other sides have black away kits. Suggestions that the maori symbols are on the kit when the official line is that they're on the training kits.

by maestegmafia Mon 18 Jul 2011, 7:49 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:English journalist Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail has this to say

Titled by the journalist "It's there in black and white... English rugby is now a laughing stock"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2015811/Martin-Samuel-Its-black-white--English-rugby-laughing-stock.html#ixzz1STUR9L8m

Typical guff (from the Mail not you Maesteg). No mention that several other sides have black away kits. Suggestions that the maori symbols are on the kit when the official line is that they're on the training kits.

The Maori symbols whether on training or match day kit is a very iffy issue to be fair. The Maoris are very protective over their identity and art work.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:22 pm

Folks I'm about to remove some personal comments. Now can we please stick to topic.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:38 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think the prime minister of NZ made some fairly scathing comments today, suggesting England were "wannabes", were being provocative and may be in danger of bringing down a hail of abuse on England fans foolish enough to buy and wear the black strip. Recall the "Ritchie McCaw is a cheat" banner video?

Personally I think the prime minister should have been more responsible and not inflamed the subject any more. Perhaps "We welcome England, and their black shirt tribute to our world cup, and thanks for letting us borrow Twickenham". That's what I would have said if I were the overmaster.

Yes GG because as we all know youa re the master of the considered and balanced response angel

It would have been far more sensible, especially as the union already had agreed to it.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:40 pm

Portnoy wrote:One thing's for sure - Ireland's change strip won't be orange.

Or will it?

They have orange on the flag dont they? Cant see what the problem would be. They could probably get a pretty good sponsorship tie in. Its not like they can have white, as thats already the traditional colour of England and they wouldnt want to become the laughing stock of rugby when Bors Johnon flips his lid over it.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:48 pm

Wow if an article about a training jersey gets this much mileage,whats this place going to be like in 52 days time?

by HammerofThunor Mon 18 Jul 2011, 9:53 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:English journalist Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail has this to say

Titled by the journalist "It's there in black and white... English rugby is now a laughing stock"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2015811/Martin-Samuel-Its-black-white--English-rugby-laughing-stock.html#ixzz1STUR9L8m

Typical guff (from the Mail not you Maesteg). No mention that several other sides have black away kits. Suggestions that the maori symbols are on the kit when the official line is that they're on the training kits.

The Maori symbols whether on training or match day kit is a very iffy issue to be fair. The Maoris are very protective over their identity and art work.

That's their choice of course. However there are suggestions, it seems, that England will be wearing a match day kit that is black with maori symbols. That's not true (or at least it hasn't been released). I don't know if theirs an official New Zealand World Cup 2011 symbol released yet but I would think it would have maori symbols on it. Are we sure it's not just that?

by TheGreyGhost Mon 18 Jul 2011, 10:51 pm

I think the black socks with two white bands is pushing it a bit far for coincidence though. What were they thinking?

Good luck to England at the world cup, seems like they'll need it. Surely they must remember all of the times that they've tried to rile NZ and copped the backlash. It just seems ill conceived, foolish and well, bizarre.

by HammerofThunor Mon 18 Jul 2011, 11:48 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think the black socks with two white bands is pushing it a bit far for coincidence though. What were they thinking?

Good luck to England at the world cup, seems like they'll need it. Surely they must remember all of the times that they've tried to rile NZ and copped the backlash. It just seems ill conceived, foolish and well, bizarre.

Are you actually going by that photo-shopped picture?

What were all those times they've tried to rile NZ?

by Artful_Dodger Tue 19 Jul 2011, 12:15 am

Portnoy wrote:One thing's for sure - Ireland's change strip won't be orange.

Or will it?

I see your subtly xenophobic attitude towards Ireland continues, do get a grip Portnoy.

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