Top 10 heavyweights. Who gets the last spot?

First topic message reminder :

Morning all,

Whenever I try to put together a top ten of heavyweight greats, I always struggle with the last spot. I have most of the obvious names there, and the nine I am comfortable with, in no particular order, are as follows: Ali, Louis, Jeffries, Johnson, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, Lewis and Foreman.

So who takes the final place?

The last time I tried a list, I had Joe Frazier in the last spot, primarily down to 1971 and "that" fight with The Greatest. Yes he was crushed by Foreman twice and beaten in his second and third fights with Ali, but that night in 1971, in the "fight of the century", he showed a monumentally big heart and no little skill in beating an unbeaten and unequalled Muhammad Ali. It was such a massive effort and demonstration of fortitude that will forever be synonymous with Smokin' Joe. Enough for the last place?

What about Sonny Liston? Absolute reign of terror prior to meeting the phenom that was Cassius Clay in 1964. Solid wins over Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdes, coupled with two wins over Patterson that could not have been any more empathic. For me, his skills are often overlooked in favour of his brooding nature, intimidating presence and links to the mob. He was a hugely skilled operator who would surely be a tough proposition for anyone in history on a head to head basis. The problem with Sonny remains the nature of his defeats to Ali, particularly the second meeting and the phantom punch. Is his ledger, outside of defeats to The Greatest, and his obvious skills, enough to grab him the number 10 spot?

The last guy I consider is Holyfield. Obviously his career recently is a cause for concern and I would like to see him retire now, but we should never overlook what he has achieved over the years. A four time heavyweight champion, including stellar wins over Riddick Bowe in their second meeting, and the two victories over Tyson, especially their first fight. He has a host of other notable names on his CV, and repeatedly came back from being dismissed as a force in the division. Performed well against Lewis in their second fight, and as recently as 2008 was considered unlucky by some observers to have lost to Valuev. He always showed a terrific heart, chin and will to win, allied to supreme conditioning and solid technique. There will always be question marks over the Evan Fields affair and he did lose twice to Bowe and failed to beat Lennox Lewis. Can he make the top 10 for anyone?

So help me out. Who should take the last spot out of these three heavyweight legends? Or is there a solid argument for anyone else?

Convince me.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:But probably too old to sit in the child seat of a trolley being pushed home because I can't stand up, i'm a young 27 year old at heart but the missus doesn't appreciate me waking her and the baby up at 4 in the morning any more, what a inconsiderate cow she can be.

Best get rid Ghosty. She is clearly just incredibly selfish.

I didn't even get a cooked breakfast this morning

now that's uncalled for... selfish and bitter

milkyboy wrote:now that's uncalled for... selfish and bitter

Sorry milky, I mis-read that. For a minute I thought you said shellfish and bitter for breakfast. What a horrible combination.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

milkyboy wrote:now that's uncalled for... selfish and bitter

Sorry milky, I mis-read that. For a minute I thought you said shellfish and bitter for breakfast. What a horrible combination.

Why not ? He had it for tea the night before.

Anyway, prawns are like women. Pink bits taste nice but the head is full of c*ap.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

milkyboy wrote:now that's uncalled for... selfish and bitter

Sorry milky, I mis-read that. For a minute I thought you said shellfish and bitter for breakfast. What a horrible combination.

Why not ? He had it for tea the night before.

Anyway, prawns are like women. Pink bits taste nice but the head is full of c*ap.

Brilliant Windy! You really are full of surprises!

Why, thank you, Sir ! Couldn't resist it, I'm afraid.

You can't leave Smokin Joe out of the list,I like your list Ghosty,even the order is similar to mine.If you did leave Frasier out I think Tunney is a fair shout 65 bouts and only one defeat as a light heavy by Greb,later avenged.Liston and Holyfield just miss the cut for me and although I always liked Paterson he would struggle to get in the top twenty.

Human Windmill, back in your cage,you dirty rat!(A reference for us oldies,there).Having chucked out a top ten here ,t'other day, I end up thinking;-Why do I rate Dempsey, is it partly because of his reputation?Would Tunney have beaten Jeffries?Is Lennox top three as I thought, or scraping number nine/ten, if he's lucky?
However.It does seem that we agree on the bulk of the top ten, with some debate about Rocky or Frazier being included. I personally don't include the latter two but under duress...I can't see them getting past Lewis but the sad thing is Lewis' career was a bit "harumphy" and it's true he didn't really have a defining fight.I'd really love to put The Rock there, however ..