What is afoot in Rustenburg?
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aucklandlaurie
Standulstermen
fa0019
red_stag
TheGreyGhost
Taylorman
RubyGuby
emack2
Biltong
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What is afoot in Rustenburg?
The question on most rugby fans lips are what currently is afoot in the Republic. Well I do not have a crystal ball, but it certainly is interesting looking at what has transpired in the last few days.
When arriving in New Zealand when asked about the “secret training camp” in Rustenburg, Peter de Villiers was rather taken aback and in his own unique way explained about players being injured. Some commented that perhaps he wasn’t in the loop regarding what is transpiring in Rustenburg.
The president of SARU was the next to blow his lid and denied any knowledge of training camps. He was rather adamant that the players were in Rustenburg, but they were being rehabilitated.
When Peter de Villiers returned home, he was in a rather boyant mood and exclaimed that the next coach ( as if there was a next coach already, perhaps Rassie Erasmus) would benefit from the tour down under.
What happened next was that 23 Boks were released back to their provinces, 15 of those were from the tour to Australasia but it is not who has been released that is of interest, but rather those that haven’t. This will provide us with a real clue as to the chosen ones.
The following players seem to still be in Rustenburg for what can only be assumed to be a training camp.
Guthro Steenkamp, Beast Mtwarira, John Smit, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, CJ v d Linde
Victor Matfield, Danie Rossouw, Bakkies Botha, Gerhard Mostert
Pierre Spies, Jean Deysel, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith
Fourie du Preez, Francois Hougaard, Ruan Pienaar
Butch James, Morne Steyn
Jean de Villiers, Jaque Fourie, Juan du Jongh
JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana
Frans Steyn,
That makes 25 players.
So the question is who of those released will make up the last 5 spots.
I would think that the coaching team would go for a 17 / 13 split.
That leaves 3 spots in the forwards, between Heinrich Brussouw if fit, Ryan kankowski, Flip v d Merwe, and Johan Muller.
In the backs 2 spots open, I would think it would be between Bjorn Basson, Gio Aplon and Pat Lambie.
It certainly seems that Peter de Villiers and his team are going to play finals rugby and not take too many chances.
When arriving in New Zealand when asked about the “secret training camp” in Rustenburg, Peter de Villiers was rather taken aback and in his own unique way explained about players being injured. Some commented that perhaps he wasn’t in the loop regarding what is transpiring in Rustenburg.
The president of SARU was the next to blow his lid and denied any knowledge of training camps. He was rather adamant that the players were in Rustenburg, but they were being rehabilitated.
When Peter de Villiers returned home, he was in a rather boyant mood and exclaimed that the next coach ( as if there was a next coach already, perhaps Rassie Erasmus) would benefit from the tour down under.
What happened next was that 23 Boks were released back to their provinces, 15 of those were from the tour to Australasia but it is not who has been released that is of interest, but rather those that haven’t. This will provide us with a real clue as to the chosen ones.
The following players seem to still be in Rustenburg for what can only be assumed to be a training camp.
Guthro Steenkamp, Beast Mtwarira, John Smit, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, CJ v d Linde
Victor Matfield, Danie Rossouw, Bakkies Botha, Gerhard Mostert
Pierre Spies, Jean Deysel, Schalk Burger, Juan Smith
Fourie du Preez, Francois Hougaard, Ruan Pienaar
Butch James, Morne Steyn
Jean de Villiers, Jaque Fourie, Juan du Jongh
JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana
Frans Steyn,
That makes 25 players.
So the question is who of those released will make up the last 5 spots.
I would think that the coaching team would go for a 17 / 13 split.
That leaves 3 spots in the forwards, between Heinrich Brussouw if fit, Ryan kankowski, Flip v d Merwe, and Johan Muller.
In the backs 2 spots open, I would think it would be between Bjorn Basson, Gio Aplon and Pat Lambie.
It certainly seems that Peter de Villiers and his team are going to play finals rugby and not take too many chances.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Hi,Biltong for me the question is will they feature in the home legs of the
3Ns.Or are they still so badly injured they won`t make it till the RWC.
You see how trusting and naive I am.I would probably have named that squad last year as the core of the RWC side.
Many of those have struggled for form,but with the sic rehabilitation of the 21 MIA know doubt will be walking on water come RWC time.
That squad would indicate the traditional RWC grind em down bit,they probably hope the All Blacks and Wallabies sustain injuries to key playersin the 3Ns missing the RWC.
Both the Wallabies,and All Blacks will probably rely on there current counter attacking style,also England may too.
Argentina,Ireland,Italy may go the arm wrestle way,the All Blacks can go with an arm wrestle with any one.Not so sure about Wales or Australia in that matter.Scotland may well go that way too.
ALL the Worlds coaches know what to expect from the Boks,what would really throw them would be the Boks coming out running.
The only advantage the All Blacks have is home advantage and the knowledge few teams win there.
Indications are THEY will have a more pragmatic Plan B this time.France is the enigma play poo one match.Destroy anyone the nex,tFrance will either not bother in the pool game,or go for the throat v NZ either way can`t see ABs going out at the group stage.
My own thought s,IF they have recovered enough a near full strength ambush awaits the All Blacks at Port Elizabeth,to hopefully injure key players for the RWC.
YES,I am that cynical THAT has been standard Bok practice for all the time I have been alive.
3Ns.Or are they still so badly injured they won`t make it till the RWC.
You see how trusting and naive I am.I would probably have named that squad last year as the core of the RWC side.
Many of those have struggled for form,but with the sic rehabilitation of the 21 MIA know doubt will be walking on water come RWC time.
That squad would indicate the traditional RWC grind em down bit,they probably hope the All Blacks and Wallabies sustain injuries to key playersin the 3Ns missing the RWC.
Both the Wallabies,and All Blacks will probably rely on there current counter attacking style,also England may too.
Argentina,Ireland,Italy may go the arm wrestle way,the All Blacks can go with an arm wrestle with any one.Not so sure about Wales or Australia in that matter.Scotland may well go that way too.
ALL the Worlds coaches know what to expect from the Boks,what would really throw them would be the Boks coming out running.
The only advantage the All Blacks have is home advantage and the knowledge few teams win there.
Indications are THEY will have a more pragmatic Plan B this time.France is the enigma play poo one match.Destroy anyone the nex,tFrance will either not bother in the pool game,or go for the throat v NZ either way can`t see ABs going out at the group stage.
My own thought s,IF they have recovered enough a near full strength ambush awaits the All Blacks at Port Elizabeth,to hopefully injure key players for the RWC.
YES,I am that cynical THAT has been standard Bok practice for all the time I have been alive.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
About 12 inches I think
RubyGuby- Posts : 7404
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Except it cant really be an ambush if the ambushee is aware of it.
Worst case scenario is SA pick the best xv they have available.
The abs would expect this. Other thing is regardless of what they were doig since the sharks loss none of those who didnt tour could have done anything more than the abs in terms of prep for a test match. This weekend will be the 6th since the stormers semi final.6 weeks with no matches at sxv or higher. Only so much you can do in a camp.
Worst case scenario is SA pick the best xv they have available.
The abs would expect this. Other thing is regardless of what they were doig since the sharks loss none of those who didnt tour could have done anything more than the abs in terms of prep for a test match. This weekend will be the 6th since the stormers semi final.6 weeks with no matches at sxv or higher. Only so much you can do in a camp.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
emack, are you seriously saying you think the Boks will go all out to injure NZ players for the world cup? Some allegation.emack2 wrote:My own thought s,IF they have recovered enough a near full strength ambush awaits the All Blacks at Port Elizabeth,to hopefully injure key players for the RWC.
YES,I am that cynical THAT has been standard Bok practice for all the time I have been alive.
Guest- Guest
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Hi Alan, two points
I am sure that the first choice players fit enough will play the home leg of the Tri Nations
As far as targeting key players to wilfully injure. Well I guess that is a game tuaght to the All Blacks equally well, so I guess that cuts both ways
As a game plan, I would exepect hard defence, Rassie would definitely not have them kick possession away needlessly, and the alertness SA showed in their pool match vs England and their natch vs Argentina to counter attack.
I did an article some time back and noted how successful they were at the time scoring tries from the tight phases, so I would expect to see some of that
I am sure that the first choice players fit enough will play the home leg of the Tri Nations
As far as targeting key players to wilfully injure. Well I guess that is a game tuaght to the All Blacks equally well, so I guess that cuts both ways
As a game plan, I would exepect hard defence, Rassie would definitely not have them kick possession away needlessly, and the alertness SA showed in their pool match vs England and their natch vs Argentina to counter attack.
I did an article some time back and noted how successful they were at the time scoring tries from the tight phases, so I would expect to see some of that
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
There is no way that NZ or Australia will send full strength squads to SA. It just doesn't make sense. The 3N will be won by either NZ or Australia and more than likely decided this weekend.
TheGreyGhost- Posts : 2531
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Stormers haveshown what to expect methinks,as to the injuries bit that refers mainly to the days of the long tours.
When EVERY provincial side wanted a win over a touring side,and was a softening up process for there test sides.
THAT was indeed common practice EVERYWHERE, NOT just the Springboks
why do you think PDV hid his Boks versus Lions in the provincial matches in
2009 applying just such a strategy .
It also happened versus Lions in 2005 in NZ but theAll Blacks played in there provincial matches.
My comments were a little over the top,deliberately injuring NO,but hoping they would be softened up certainly.
If you look back some of the Great touring sides have lost to the likes of Northern Transvaal.,Border,Orange Free State,Western Province,Canterbury,Wellington,Auckland,Waikato,Otago, Southland,NSW,NSWCountry,Munster,Newport,LLanelli,Swansea,Cardiff,A collection of English Counties groups or French divisional sides .
All have touring sides Heads in there Honours Boards Lions 1959 had to fly out about 3 replacements.
When EVERY provincial side wanted a win over a touring side,and was a softening up process for there test sides.
THAT was indeed common practice EVERYWHERE, NOT just the Springboks
why do you think PDV hid his Boks versus Lions in the provincial matches in
2009 applying just such a strategy .
It also happened versus Lions in 2005 in NZ but theAll Blacks played in there provincial matches.
My comments were a little over the top,deliberately injuring NO,but hoping they would be softened up certainly.
If you look back some of the Great touring sides have lost to the likes of Northern Transvaal.,Border,Orange Free State,Western Province,Canterbury,Wellington,Auckland,Waikato,Otago, Southland,NSW,NSWCountry,Munster,Newport,LLanelli,Swansea,Cardiff,A collection of English Counties groups or French divisional sides .
All have touring sides Heads in there Honours Boards Lions 1959 had to fly out about 3 replacements.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Whats afoot in Rustenburg?
Mind games.
England had the mind games of the "black kit".
South Africa has this one. Whether this is or isn't a secret training camp this is just what SA need.
Mind games.
Mind games.
England had the mind games of the "black kit".
South Africa has this one. Whether this is or isn't a secret training camp this is just what SA need.
Mind games.
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Hadn't actually got as far as your 'injuries' comment in terms of an ambush. In this day and age the enforcer role is largely gone and cameras have always picked up most of Bakkie's injury intent hits.
Funnily if that was a tactic of anyones I would pick SA but I don't think anyone would be that stupid. Plus they face a ban and depending on who does it it could backfire. Theyd need one of the biggies to do it so a Aplon hit on Thorne might not be smart!
Funnily if that was a tactic of anyones I would pick SA but I don't think anyone would be that stupid. Plus they face a ban and depending on who does it it could backfire. Theyd need one of the biggies to do it so a Aplon hit on Thorne might not be smart!
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Emack
Dude... sometimes you go too far..... the boks are hard fellas... but in terms of purposely injuring players, that just wouldn't happen.
& don't forget the most purpose take out in recent history was Tana & Mealamu in the 1st min of the 1st lions test in 05... not banned yes but the IRB 6 months later after seeing new evidence says both would have been sent off and both would have received massive bans.
Name me the last bok player to do what you said in a match.... and don't bother using your age and bringing out something in Colin Meads time....since 1992 will be fine.
Your tinted glasses completely cloud your judgement.
The truth is this.... you are probably generally worried that your beloved NZ may not win the RWC and that the boks (the real boks) will be a massive test for both skill and pressure if they meet in the SF.
Dude... sometimes you go too far..... the boks are hard fellas... but in terms of purposely injuring players, that just wouldn't happen.
& don't forget the most purpose take out in recent history was Tana & Mealamu in the 1st min of the 1st lions test in 05... not banned yes but the IRB 6 months later after seeing new evidence says both would have been sent off and both would have received massive bans.
Name me the last bok player to do what you said in a match.... and don't bother using your age and bringing out something in Colin Meads time....since 1992 will be fine.
Your tinted glasses completely cloud your judgement.
The truth is this.... you are probably generally worried that your beloved NZ may not win the RWC and that the boks (the real boks) will be a massive test for both skill and pressure if they meet in the SF.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
fa0019 wrote:Emack
Dude... sometimes you go too far..... the boks are hard fellas... but in terms of purposely injuring players, that just wouldn't happen.
& don't forget the most purpose take out in recent history was Tana & Mealamu in the 1st min of the 1st lions test in 05... not banned yes but the IRB 6 months later after seeing new evidence says both would have been sent off and both would have received massive bans.
Name me the last bok player to do what you said in a match.... and don't bother using your age and bringing out something in Colin Meads time....since 1992 will be fine.
Your tinted glasses completely cloud your judgement.
The truth is this.... you are probably generally worried that your beloved NZ may not win the RWC and that the boks (the real boks) will be a massive test for both skill and pressure if they meet in the SF.
Agree it was a bit of an unnecessary comment. Also think the KM/TU come back is a bit harsh. Everything I've heard or seen around that particular incident leads me to believe it was accidental. I hardly think that ABs team was so frightened of BOD that they thought the only option was to try to end his career.
I'd argue that the Burger first minute eye gouge seemed to be born of more intent if we're rating indiscretions in Lions tours, that after all was a blatantly deliberate act of foul play that should never be seen in the game, and in no way could have been contrued as anything other than deliberate.
i prefer to think that in the heat of the moment it's easy to get a little bit too hyped up and accidentally overstep the mark.
The Boks are a physical side, and they love to intimidate. Fair play too, I don't think anyone deliberately sets out to injure any more, there's simply too much to lose for the perpetrator. Last time I heard a sniff of that was the unfortunate incident in which a SA player was the victim during the dawn of professionalism.
TheGreyGhost- Posts : 2531
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
biltongbek
You're missing Willem Alberts no??? I haven't heard, is he injured?
Think they will take the following
Steenkamp, Beast, J Du Plessis, Van der Linde, B Du Plessis, Smit, Chilliboy, B Botha, Matfield, Burger, Alberts, Spies, Russouw, Van der Merve, Smith, Brussow.
Du Preez, Hougaard, Pienaar, M Steyn, James, Lambie, De Jongh, JDV, Fioure, Habana, Pietersen, Aplon, F Steyn.
1 space left.... not sure whether PDV will take another 3/4 back, another prop or another backrow player... wouldn't be surprised if he takes Basson.
You're missing Willem Alberts no??? I haven't heard, is he injured?
Think they will take the following
Steenkamp, Beast, J Du Plessis, Van der Linde, B Du Plessis, Smit, Chilliboy, B Botha, Matfield, Burger, Alberts, Spies, Russouw, Van der Merve, Smith, Brussow.
Du Preez, Hougaard, Pienaar, M Steyn, James, Lambie, De Jongh, JDV, Fioure, Habana, Pietersen, Aplon, F Steyn.
1 space left.... not sure whether PDV will take another 3/4 back, another prop or another backrow player... wouldn't be surprised if he takes Basson.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
FA, yes I did forget about Willem Alberts, But I am not sure what happened to him
Also just want to say it is good to have a ”neutral” fighting the Bok cause with me. There aren`t many South Africans on here.
Cheers
Also just want to say it is good to have a ”neutral” fighting the Bok cause with me. There aren`t many South Africans on here.
Cheers
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Bakkies Botha head Butt to the back of the head is a friendly gesture?
OK I admit the comment is no longer appropiate necessarily,BUT deliberate hiding of players in 2007,2009 Lions tour[especially]this year too in the 3Ns.stinks.
My beloved NZ not win a RWC in your dreams,i`ll be amazed if I EVER see NZ win another RWC in my lifetime.
Rose tinted glasses?after 1956 athe All Blacks were catching the Boks up rapidly.
IF it takes throwing away 3Ns series and deliberately fielding weak sides to win another RWC.
THEN I hope I never see them win another RWC.
OK I admit the comment is no longer appropiate necessarily,BUT deliberate hiding of players in 2007,2009 Lions tour[especially]this year too in the 3Ns.stinks.
My beloved NZ not win a RWC in your dreams,i`ll be amazed if I EVER see NZ win another RWC in my lifetime.
Rose tinted glasses?after 1956 athe All Blacks were catching the Boks up rapidly.
IF it takes throwing away 3Ns series and deliberately fielding weak sides to win another RWC.
THEN I hope I never see them win another RWC.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Was`nt Alberts damaged knee ligaments or something I thought I read he was a genuine RWC Non -starter.BUT with all the claims and counter claims who knows?
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Alan it seems you have been struggling to contain your disdain of the Boks these last few weeks.
Just a reminder, remember John Smit being dumped in front of the referee in 2008, he sustained a neck injury and was out of the tri nations. End of 2009 he had an operaion in his neck.
When it comes down to it NO Team is innocent, as much as you would like to believe.
As far as your continued insistence and obsession regarding the coaches not sending top teams, get over it you are sounding like a broken record.
And as far as not wanting the Boks to win another RWC trophy, tough luck, I doubt they'll pay any attention to your wishes
Just a reminder, remember John Smit being dumped in front of the referee in 2008, he sustained a neck injury and was out of the tri nations. End of 2009 he had an operaion in his neck.
When it comes down to it NO Team is innocent, as much as you would like to believe.
As far as your continued insistence and obsession regarding the coaches not sending top teams, get over it you are sounding like a broken record.
And as far as not wanting the Boks to win another RWC trophy, tough luck, I doubt they'll pay any attention to your wishes
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Biltong
How close is Muller to the RWC squad now? Has his injury set him back in this regard?
How close is Muller to the RWC squad now? Has his injury set him back in this regard?
Standulstermen- Posts : 5451
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Standulsterman, he injured his ankle, it didn't sound too serious, I think with Andries Bekker out with a longterm injury Johan Muller stands a realistic chance
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Biltong ,yes No team is innocent agreed.yes my anger at fielding weakened
teams is geniune.THAT does not apply just to the Boks but ANY side that does it.
I am not disdainful of the Boks far from it,they are one of THE best two teams ever to play the game.
There records are unique ,there achievements carved in stone, they have achieved things All Blacks never have or could.
Few sides have won a series in the Republic,the 1955 Lions drawn series,and 1974 series were highlights for me.
France were the first side to win a series in 1958,and IF you read my post it is it seems ambiguos.
So I will restate my case I do not think the All Blacks will win this RWC .or another in my lifetime.I do not think they have the gameplan for knockout rugby.
I repeat and this applies to the ALL BLACKS ONLY.I hope they never deliberately field weak sides in a 3/4Ns ,Bledisloe series and throw it away in an attempt to win a RWC.
I repeat IF they do THEN I hope I never see THEM[THE ALL BLACKS}win another RWC.by that means[THAT is what my previous post was meant to say]
THAT comment did not apply to the BOKs ,I think they or the Wallabies will win this one.
I expect those two sides ALWAYS to be in the frame come RWC time,and Good Luck to them I wish them both genuinely well.
My view on RWCs and winning them is well known ,and my view not changed ,stuck record or not.
It will come a time when the sponsors will force SANZAR to maybe abandon either Super series or 4Ns,in RWC year.
My disdain as you put it is for whoever is behind cheapening the Shirt of the Proudest ONE of TWO teams ever to play the game.
The Players go out and do there best,which is great for them BUT to be treated like cannon fodder is shameful.
I have the greatest Respect for the Boks,and there history,the matches between these two Great sides are THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP not a RWC.
Look at the match stats and see how close it is and if you are honest Biltong you have been disdainful of the recent antics too.
teams is geniune.THAT does not apply just to the Boks but ANY side that does it.
I am not disdainful of the Boks far from it,they are one of THE best two teams ever to play the game.
There records are unique ,there achievements carved in stone, they have achieved things All Blacks never have or could.
Few sides have won a series in the Republic,the 1955 Lions drawn series,and 1974 series were highlights for me.
France were the first side to win a series in 1958,and IF you read my post it is it seems ambiguos.
So I will restate my case I do not think the All Blacks will win this RWC .or another in my lifetime.I do not think they have the gameplan for knockout rugby.
I repeat and this applies to the ALL BLACKS ONLY.I hope they never deliberately field weak sides in a 3/4Ns ,Bledisloe series and throw it away in an attempt to win a RWC.
I repeat IF they do THEN I hope I never see THEM[THE ALL BLACKS}win another RWC.by that means[THAT is what my previous post was meant to say]
THAT comment did not apply to the BOKs ,I think they or the Wallabies will win this one.
I expect those two sides ALWAYS to be in the frame come RWC time,and Good Luck to them I wish them both genuinely well.
My view on RWCs and winning them is well known ,and my view not changed ,stuck record or not.
It will come a time when the sponsors will force SANZAR to maybe abandon either Super series or 4Ns,in RWC year.
My disdain as you put it is for whoever is behind cheapening the Shirt of the Proudest ONE of TWO teams ever to play the game.
The Players go out and do there best,which is great for them BUT to be treated like cannon fodder is shameful.
I have the greatest Respect for the Boks,and there history,the matches between these two Great sides are THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP not a RWC.
Look at the match stats and see how close it is and if you are honest Biltong you have been disdainful of the recent antics too.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
biltong
just a quick comment :
"YOU ARE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS"
Something the rest of us could do well to remember.
just a quick comment :
"YOU ARE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS"
Something the rest of us could do well to remember.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Alan my disappointment and anger was never aimed at the Boks, that is why I have attempted to provide information on your and other threads so that people outside SA have a better understanding of the challenges that faces our Springboks.
I agree my displeasure towards the direction in which SARU and PDV. Has been taking the Boks has been clearly seen on this board.
However I have never shown disdain for my TEAM. Due to the fact that I am one of only a handful of South Africans on this site I try to give as objective an nsight into Springbok rugby as is possible
I agree my displeasure towards the direction in which SARU and PDV. Has been taking the Boks has been clearly seen on this board.
However I have never shown disdain for my TEAM. Due to the fact that I am one of only a handful of South Africans on this site I try to give as objective an nsight into Springbok rugby as is possible
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
aucklandlaurie wrote: biltong
just a quick comment :
"YOU ARE THE WORLD CHAMPIONS"
Something the rest of us could do well to remember.
Thanks aucklandlaurie, at least for a little while yet.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Emack: The All Black vs Bok rivalry has been so watered down by playing too many tests against each other. Lions series and World Cups remain the most unique and 'special' rugby events unfortunately. With the pressure, mental and physical, and travel involved, for the sake of the players and their well being, it is inevitable that 'rest' periods will be needed.
Perhaps the 3 nations should be an every two year tournament? As much as I enjoy watching the All Blacks and Boks go at each other I wish it was a less common event.
SA's problem now is mainly due to P Div's mess of the last four years. If he had blooded young players like he should have gradually and in a structured way then the team would've been far more competitive in the last two games.
I agree that the way it was done is cheapening the Bok jersey essentially handing caps to players who are undeserving just to make up the numbers. I didn't see the games as test matches and was just interested in seeing how one or two players performed. I doubt the All Blacks derived much satisfaction from the victory. It was an undeserving team lead by an undeserving coach (the very fact that P Div leads the Boks is insulting)
If SA had a competent coach that had planned over four years then players could've been rotated sensibly with little impact on performance like the All Blacks will probably do now when they go to SA. In fairness to him though there really has been a higher than usual number of injured players.
However, defending the RWC will help forget the last two matches a lot!
Perhaps the 3 nations should be an every two year tournament? As much as I enjoy watching the All Blacks and Boks go at each other I wish it was a less common event.
SA's problem now is mainly due to P Div's mess of the last four years. If he had blooded young players like he should have gradually and in a structured way then the team would've been far more competitive in the last two games.
I agree that the way it was done is cheapening the Bok jersey essentially handing caps to players who are undeserving just to make up the numbers. I didn't see the games as test matches and was just interested in seeing how one or two players performed. I doubt the All Blacks derived much satisfaction from the victory. It was an undeserving team lead by an undeserving coach (the very fact that P Div leads the Boks is insulting)
If SA had a competent coach that had planned over four years then players could've been rotated sensibly with little impact on performance like the All Blacks will probably do now when they go to SA. In fairness to him though there really has been a higher than usual number of injured players.
However, defending the RWC will help forget the last two matches a lot!
MMaaxx- Posts : 276
Join date : 2011-08-02
Location : New place every week, live between SA, Porugal and UK
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Biltong,Iam sorry if I have misinterprated your feelings,I fully understand .
You are a FAN,my TEAM right or wrong,I fully respect that view My feelings
for the All Blacks are the same.
SARU and whoever is behind the direction of Rugby and RWC planning it seems to me almost like the Sports during the Cold War.
With USA and the Eastern Bloc trying to prove there way was better at Oympics..
It almost seems thats the way SARFU view RWCs,we are THE Best,and must prove it by whatever means.
I cannot even pretend to understand the problems or otherwise of your Rugby players.
I see your S15 sides ,and Currie Cup your depth in players is awesome as is
Nz`s yet with respect at International[3Ns]level you have underachieved.
Your players and Coaches are respected World wide .
When a group of great Coaches is ridiculed,as Henry and co .were in 2009 one wonders about the psyche of media in Nz and else where.
SA were World Champions,beaten the Lions,won 3 Ns 5-1 ,IRB number one
PDV was god,then AI`s followed by 2010 then PDV`s a clown.
I hate seeing a great side being abused,for a hidden agenda I don`t pretend to understand.I used to discuss it with David Leigh on the old 606 site but he never made it across.
In retro spect my comments on deliberate injuries were perhaps over the top.But certainly when the two sides meet there were no holds barred,especially in the dark labyrinths of Scrum and Lineout.
You are a FAN,my TEAM right or wrong,I fully respect that view My feelings
for the All Blacks are the same.
SARU and whoever is behind the direction of Rugby and RWC planning it seems to me almost like the Sports during the Cold War.
With USA and the Eastern Bloc trying to prove there way was better at Oympics..
It almost seems thats the way SARFU view RWCs,we are THE Best,and must prove it by whatever means.
I cannot even pretend to understand the problems or otherwise of your Rugby players.
I see your S15 sides ,and Currie Cup your depth in players is awesome as is
Nz`s yet with respect at International[3Ns]level you have underachieved.
Your players and Coaches are respected World wide .
When a group of great Coaches is ridiculed,as Henry and co .were in 2009 one wonders about the psyche of media in Nz and else where.
SA were World Champions,beaten the Lions,won 3 Ns 5-1 ,IRB number one
PDV was god,then AI`s followed by 2010 then PDV`s a clown.
I hate seeing a great side being abused,for a hidden agenda I don`t pretend to understand.I used to discuss it with David Leigh on the old 606 site but he never made it across.
In retro spect my comments on deliberate injuries were perhaps over the top.But certainly when the two sides meet there were no holds barred,especially in the dark labyrinths of Scrum and Lineout.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Age : 81
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Alan, it is hard being a springbok supporter when you start reading every team and their dog starts thinking they can bet the springboks.
I know we are all passionate about our teams, rugby is not just a sport, it is a way of life, it used to spoil my weekends when my team lost, I have learnt how to cope with it in a more mature manner, but it can still hurt a lot.
Where were the days when people feared th Springboks? I know a lot of time it is just bravado, after all supporters want to believe their teams can win against anyone.
It is sometimes difficult to keep your cool, but at the end of the day it is about respect.
And in my view after all has been said and done, that is all we have left.
I know we are all passionate about our teams, rugby is not just a sport, it is a way of life, it used to spoil my weekends when my team lost, I have learnt how to cope with it in a more mature manner, but it can still hurt a lot.
Where were the days when people feared th Springboks? I know a lot of time it is just bravado, after all supporters want to believe their teams can win against anyone.
It is sometimes difficult to keep your cool, but at the end of the day it is about respect.
And in my view after all has been said and done, that is all we have left.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Hi,Biltong like you I am passionate about my rugby,and my support of the All Blacks.I started at a low point in NZ history,the first Post war All Blacks tour,1953-4 a side which under achieved as the 1935 side had to there great predecesors.THE Great Battle between the sides stood at 12-3 to the Boks,they had just suffered the worst tear 1949.
THE worst year ever both Boks and Wallabies beat them in 1949,because of politics.THE st rongest All Black side did`nt appear in either series no fault of the players concerned.THEY certainly did`nt think it cheapened the shirt,especially in an era when the average player could expect maybe a dozen caps.Johnny Smith[the lgendary J.B] probably had about 6 tops HE was THE best back of his generation.
Since that time the All Blacks have been on the upswing,especially against the Boks.
Like you I am gutted if my team loses ,that is normal and I look for explanations.
Every team now THINKS they can beat the All Blacks,Wallabies,Spring boks whatever.DOING it is quite another matter and still rarely happens.
Many factors like the conditions,the Ball,theReferees are now taken out of the equation.A side in amateur days may have had played the Boks or ABs every 8-10 years ,players play in one series v them in a playing career.
As the poster above said they play them so often familiarity breeds contempt.
When the 3Ns for cash reasons was expanded to six matches the £ns became flawed.Only one series went against the draw 2006 ,with an All Black win.
Because of the travel factor 4Ns/Super Rugby away victories are rare given best available teams selection.
In the traditional long Tour or a RWC the teams are in situ so the travel factor is weakened.
No respect for the BOKS? a team with a 68% win stat v all comers,the most successful in RWC side in history,a 43% win stat versus the All Blacks 10% better than anyone else? HOW can you disrespect that.
I always expect the Boks to beatANYONE,ANYWHERE,it delights me when they fail to be the All Blacks.
In 2001?or 2 John Mitchell changed the All Blacks playing style from the solid set piece/ruck. game to Mobile packs and counter attacking skills of Carlos Spencer.That style has stuck to a large extent,it was found out in 2003 by England and in RWC subsequently
Traditional values continued with the Crusaders who play a structured game based on set piece,then moving the ball when its on.
What has gone out of there game to a large extent is the drop goal and creating a platform for it.
It is easy to snipe when your on the sidelines,and your job is is not on the line.But frustrating when one of the Basic Rugby skills taught at schoolboy level is ignored.
Dave Trevathan must be spinning in his grave,at the thought,if you can score trys fine if you can`t score by whatever means.
A coach should`nt have to send on instructions to try a drop,it should be instinctive when it`s on.
This board is now the best I have found for discussion ,I belong to about 8 or 9 but seldom visit elsewhere now.
Since retirement with time on my hands then debate of Rugby among other things is mypleasure.Sometimes in debate I overstate my case or make rash ones for that I apologise..
I am old,hidebound,and stupid enough to believe the shirt,should be earned not cheapened.
The practice of bringing on a substitute 5 minutes from the end of a game in a major international just to be part of a win is an example of that.
Still it could be argued if a player is picked for a squad but NEVER gets a game he is capped?Simon Mannix?
THE worst year ever both Boks and Wallabies beat them in 1949,because of politics.THE st rongest All Black side did`nt appear in either series no fault of the players concerned.THEY certainly did`nt think it cheapened the shirt,especially in an era when the average player could expect maybe a dozen caps.Johnny Smith[the lgendary J.B] probably had about 6 tops HE was THE best back of his generation.
Since that time the All Blacks have been on the upswing,especially against the Boks.
Like you I am gutted if my team loses ,that is normal and I look for explanations.
Every team now THINKS they can beat the All Blacks,Wallabies,Spring boks whatever.DOING it is quite another matter and still rarely happens.
Many factors like the conditions,the Ball,theReferees are now taken out of the equation.A side in amateur days may have had played the Boks or ABs every 8-10 years ,players play in one series v them in a playing career.
As the poster above said they play them so often familiarity breeds contempt.
When the 3Ns for cash reasons was expanded to six matches the £ns became flawed.Only one series went against the draw 2006 ,with an All Black win.
Because of the travel factor 4Ns/Super Rugby away victories are rare given best available teams selection.
In the traditional long Tour or a RWC the teams are in situ so the travel factor is weakened.
No respect for the BOKS? a team with a 68% win stat v all comers,the most successful in RWC side in history,a 43% win stat versus the All Blacks 10% better than anyone else? HOW can you disrespect that.
I always expect the Boks to beatANYONE,ANYWHERE,it delights me when they fail to be the All Blacks.
In 2001?or 2 John Mitchell changed the All Blacks playing style from the solid set piece/ruck. game to Mobile packs and counter attacking skills of Carlos Spencer.That style has stuck to a large extent,it was found out in 2003 by England and in RWC subsequently
Traditional values continued with the Crusaders who play a structured game based on set piece,then moving the ball when its on.
What has gone out of there game to a large extent is the drop goal and creating a platform for it.
It is easy to snipe when your on the sidelines,and your job is is not on the line.But frustrating when one of the Basic Rugby skills taught at schoolboy level is ignored.
Dave Trevathan must be spinning in his grave,at the thought,if you can score trys fine if you can`t score by whatever means.
A coach should`nt have to send on instructions to try a drop,it should be instinctive when it`s on.
This board is now the best I have found for discussion ,I belong to about 8 or 9 but seldom visit elsewhere now.
Since retirement with time on my hands then debate of Rugby among other things is mypleasure.Sometimes in debate I overstate my case or make rash ones for that I apologise..
I am old,hidebound,and stupid enough to believe the shirt,should be earned not cheapened.
The practice of bringing on a substitute 5 minutes from the end of a game in a major international just to be part of a win is an example of that.
Still it could be argued if a player is picked for a squad but NEVER gets a game he is capped?Simon Mannix?
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
I often wonder if players aren't just being over coached. I spoke to a friend of mine the other day, his son is a flanker with serious ball carrying abilities and very good on the offload. He is a big boy, 6 foot tall and he is only 14.
He is not allowed to pick and run. His coach has given them instruction to keep within the gameplan, and hence his talents will surely erode over time as he is not allowed to play instinctively.
Perhaps it is just a south african thing, but it often seems some players can't play instinctive rugby anymore.
He is not allowed to pick and run. His coach has given them instruction to keep within the gameplan, and hence his talents will surely erode over time as he is not allowed to play instinctively.
Perhaps it is just a south african thing, but it often seems some players can't play instinctive rugby anymore.
Last edited by biltongbek on Wed 03 Aug 2011, 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Biltong- Moderator
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Location : Twilight zone
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Without pretending to know all of the inner workings of either the South African set up or Peter De Villiers mind, I think it is safe to say, that come the World Cup, South Africa will be a threat to everyone including the All Blacks.
PDV may be making a mess of preparation, (who knows what is the correct way to prepare for the tournament?) but amongst South Africa's best 25-30 players there is too much quality for them not to be competitive when the tournament rolls around.
The players in the squad are competitive beasts by nature, and will fight tooth and nail to hold on to their crown. People write them off at their peril in my view.
The one thing that could cause them problems is PDV's selections for the big games. Jean De Villiers on the wing or other such crazy choices would spell disaster. He also needs to make big decisions about two players who have been integral to the side in recent years, John Smit and Morne Steyn.
Smit is a true legend, but the question has to be asked if he is justifying selection. Bismarck is the best hooker in the world, and must start, so the only option is Smit at tighthead. Neither he nor Jannie are great scrummagers there, so if it is a straight selection between the two, the question is solely does Smits' leadership outweigh Jannie's contribution in the loose. PDV needs to be certain what he wants in the team.
Steyn has been poor all season, and Lambie looks a very good player. The Sharks youngster MUST start both of the remaing 3 Nations fixtures at 10 so that PDV can have a real look at him, with the big guns around him and see if he could be the man to guide them to becoming the first team to retain the William Webb Ellis trophy.
PDV may be making a mess of preparation, (who knows what is the correct way to prepare for the tournament?) but amongst South Africa's best 25-30 players there is too much quality for them not to be competitive when the tournament rolls around.
The players in the squad are competitive beasts by nature, and will fight tooth and nail to hold on to their crown. People write them off at their peril in my view.
The one thing that could cause them problems is PDV's selections for the big games. Jean De Villiers on the wing or other such crazy choices would spell disaster. He also needs to make big decisions about two players who have been integral to the side in recent years, John Smit and Morne Steyn.
Smit is a true legend, but the question has to be asked if he is justifying selection. Bismarck is the best hooker in the world, and must start, so the only option is Smit at tighthead. Neither he nor Jannie are great scrummagers there, so if it is a straight selection between the two, the question is solely does Smits' leadership outweigh Jannie's contribution in the loose. PDV needs to be certain what he wants in the team.
Steyn has been poor all season, and Lambie looks a very good player. The Sharks youngster MUST start both of the remaing 3 Nations fixtures at 10 so that PDV can have a real look at him, with the big guns around him and see if he could be the man to guide them to becoming the first team to retain the William Webb Ellis trophy.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Join date : 2011-01-29
Age : 48
Location : Sandhurst
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
On a side not, Rugby-Talk another website I frequent asked Professor Tim Noakes the leading sports scientist in SA the following and this was his answer:
Dear Rudi
Here are my answers:
1. Is the rest period for senior Springboks long enough to make World Cup results favourable?
Too little too late I fear. The rest is definitely better than nothing but the level of fatigue after the past 4 seasons and the Super 15 cannot be corrected in 2 weeks.
2. Was the rest period done IN TIME to allow for these weary bodies to perform at their peak?
The end of year tours in 2008/9/10, because they did not allow senior players 8 weeks rest each year (and the chance to develop a cadre of junior players to international standard) and the 2011 Super 15 competition have done the damage.
The senior players’ bodies will tell them whether they are up to it. Each player in his heart will know whether he really has it in him for 2 more Tri-Nations games and 7 more big games in the World Cup. And each will play those games according to what his body tells him.
We may wish it otherwise. But when the body is tired, the mind cannot drive it to the level that is possible when the body is fresh and properly rested.
Poor decision making has stacked the cards against the Boks. It will take some of the most heroic performances in the history of South African rugby for this team of proven, extraordinary players, to retain the William Webb Ellis Trophy.
Warm regards,
Tim Noakes”
Would this apply only to SA?
Dear Rudi
Here are my answers:
1. Is the rest period for senior Springboks long enough to make World Cup results favourable?
Too little too late I fear. The rest is definitely better than nothing but the level of fatigue after the past 4 seasons and the Super 15 cannot be corrected in 2 weeks.
2. Was the rest period done IN TIME to allow for these weary bodies to perform at their peak?
The end of year tours in 2008/9/10, because they did not allow senior players 8 weeks rest each year (and the chance to develop a cadre of junior players to international standard) and the 2011 Super 15 competition have done the damage.
The senior players’ bodies will tell them whether they are up to it. Each player in his heart will know whether he really has it in him for 2 more Tri-Nations games and 7 more big games in the World Cup. And each will play those games according to what his body tells him.
We may wish it otherwise. But when the body is tired, the mind cannot drive it to the level that is possible when the body is fresh and properly rested.
Poor decision making has stacked the cards against the Boks. It will take some of the most heroic performances in the history of South African rugby for this team of proven, extraordinary players, to retain the William Webb Ellis Trophy.
Warm regards,
Tim Noakes”
Would this apply only to SA?
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Biltong
Looking at it from a scientific point of view Dr Noakes is entirely correct. The thing is, sport is not a science, and sometimes the heart inside a sportsman can drive them on to things that people would say their body is not capable of.
Looking at it from a scientific point of view Dr Noakes is entirely correct. The thing is, sport is not a science, and sometimes the heart inside a sportsman can drive them on to things that people would say their body is not capable of.
Last edited by LDCPete on Wed 03 Aug 2011, 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
LDCPete wrote:Biltong
Looking at it from a scientific point of view Dr Noakes is entirely correct. The thing is, sport is not a science, and sometimes the heart inside a sportsman can drive them on to things that people would say their body is not capable of.
Yes Pete, I tend to agree with you, I just hope it will be the case with the Springboks, my biggest concern is how hungry are those that already has a winners medal?
Would they put their bodies on the line when we are down by 10 in a knock out match with 10 minutes to go?
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Those with medals know that they will join an elite already existing club of players to have won two if they do, and will also become the first side to retain the trophy as well, so I think there will be motivation enough for them.
Ozzy3213- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
You would think that the chance to be the first side to retain the trophy would be a huge motivation for the players, it could also be the perfect way for Smit and some of the other older statesmen to draw time on their international careers.
Biltong, 2 questions:
- What are the chances of Brussow being fit? I know South Africa have an embarssament of riches in the back row, but to lose him and Juan Smith would be a bit of a blow.
- The other question, going back to the Rustenburg camp is; do you think it is a good idea if it benefits the Boks at the WC? Speaking to South African friends in London, while they are unhappy about the tri nations performances so far, that seems to be tempered by the fact that their best players are being coached by someone who knows what they are doing and (hopefully!) any niggles from the Super Rugby season will have gone for the WC.
I'd be interested to hear what the view in SA is?
Biltong, 2 questions:
- What are the chances of Brussow being fit? I know South Africa have an embarssament of riches in the back row, but to lose him and Juan Smith would be a bit of a blow.
- The other question, going back to the Rustenburg camp is; do you think it is a good idea if it benefits the Boks at the WC? Speaking to South African friends in London, while they are unhappy about the tri nations performances so far, that seems to be tempered by the fact that their best players are being coached by someone who knows what they are doing and (hopefully!) any niggles from the Super Rugby season will have gone for the WC.
I'd be interested to hear what the view in SA is?
Bathman_in_London- Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Bathman, both Brussouw and Juan Smith is a possibility, I think both were rushed into Super XV this season and immediately got injured again.
Problem is they have played little rugby, fortunately they normally hit the ground running.
The Rustenburg story is another matter altogether. There are mixed feelings about this whole situation.
If PDV were not so hard headed he would have exposed more young players during the last 4 seasons to enable him to have a more experineced group of youths. It was very clear from him that he has decided to retain as many senior boks to take to this years RWC as he could, regardless of whether they would still show form.
So now he doesn't have a choice, there aren't enough experineced youngsters, so it can go two ways. It might work if the rustenburg thinks works out OK, or it may completely backfire.
And that we won't know until then.
Problem is they have played little rugby, fortunately they normally hit the ground running.
The Rustenburg story is another matter altogether. There are mixed feelings about this whole situation.
If PDV were not so hard headed he would have exposed more young players during the last 4 seasons to enable him to have a more experineced group of youths. It was very clear from him that he has decided to retain as many senior boks to take to this years RWC as he could, regardless of whether they would still show form.
So now he doesn't have a choice, there aren't enough experineced youngsters, so it can go two ways. It might work if the rustenburg thinks works out OK, or it may completely backfire.
And that we won't know until then.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Well in a knock-out competition SA will be very hard to beat, I cant help thinking that this camp could actually work out quite well. Players like Matfield are surely going to perform in the WC, and shouldnt need the warm up of a full tri nations campaign to hit their stride.
If those players perform for PDV and the Boks retain the cup, he would actually have a fairly good record wouldnt he? I'm sure it would be good PR for the transformation forces that be too.
But if you are underccoked and dont perform, then you will be left will a huge void to fill and no blooded players to fill it. Obviously that will happen anyway, but at least with a World Cup in the cabinet, it would be easier to justify. I for one will be interested to see how it works out.
If those players perform for PDV and the Boks retain the cup, he would actually have a fairly good record wouldnt he? I'm sure it would be good PR for the transformation forces that be too.
But if you are underccoked and dont perform, then you will be left will a huge void to fill and no blooded players to fill it. Obviously that will happen anyway, but at least with a World Cup in the cabinet, it would be easier to justify. I for one will be interested to see how it works out.
Bathman_in_London- Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
The Boks in any RWC would be my favourites on there record,and They have a side if that is the squad more or less.
To play the traditional RWC winning formula,10 man rugby,score a few tries from set piece [especially lineout] penalties and drops,plus solid defence.
Can`t reall y see past SA versus AUs final to be frank,intresting to see which philosophy wins.
My main interest if any to see how the second tier do and which one goes furthest.Japan ?now that would be something pity there is`nt silver ware for the tier 2 sides too.
To play the traditional RWC winning formula,10 man rugby,score a few tries from set piece [especially lineout] penalties and drops,plus solid defence.
Can`t reall y see past SA versus AUs final to be frank,intresting to see which philosophy wins.
My main interest if any to see how the second tier do and which one goes furthest.Japan ?now that would be something pity there is`nt silver ware for the tier 2 sides too.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: What is afoot in Rustenburg?
Players getting targetted happens a lot nowdays, generally with borderline high/late tackles.
Just part of the game really and if the ref doesn't stop it then the players need to step up and get on it.
As a few examples how about:
Wilkinsons treatment from Betsen
The Tuilagis going for Abendanon
The final provincial match v the Lions on the '09 tour
The list is endless but it's just part of the game to some extent.
Just part of the game really and if the ref doesn't stop it then the players need to step up and get on it.
As a few examples how about:
Wilkinsons treatment from Betsen
The Tuilagis going for Abendanon
The final provincial match v the Lions on the '09 tour
The list is endless but it's just part of the game to some extent.
yappysnap- Posts : 11993
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Age : 36
Location : Christchurch, NZ
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