LEWIS MOODY is set to resume the England Captaincy

by maestegmafia Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:17 am

First topic message reminder :

LEWIS MOODY is set to resume the England captaincy for Saturday’s Investec international against Wales at a sold-out Twickenham.

The Bath flanker missed the whole of England’s Six Nations title-winning campaign with a knee ligament injury, handing over the captaincy first to Mike Tindall and then Nick Easter.

But Moody, 33, is the man England manager Martin Johnson wants to lead his squad into the Rugby World Cup.

Johnson will officially confirm the team to face Wales – the first of England’s three World Cup warm-up fixtures – tomorrow lunchtime.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/08/03/lewis-moody-set-to-return-to-lead-england-against-wales-91466-29166099/#ixzz1TxYvUVa9

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:34 pm

Quick check form his last 10 international starts ...flankers accounted for 20 openalties, 5 of those went to Moody.
He is no more or less penalised than the average flanker in the games he plays in.

You are all wrong

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:38 pm

Sorry, don't follow your maths there.

Also "last 10 international starts" is going to give you a giant skew.

by robbo277 Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:42 pm

TGG, the argument is whether Moody still is a penalty machine, or if he's matured into a more disciplined player. Last 10 International starts is fine. Although it's the next 10 International starts that will be more interesting to me!

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:44 pm

It would depend on the opposition in the last ten games he started is what I'm saying.

You also have to factor whether he played the full 80.

I'd also be interested in your source of the above stats?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:48 pm

The size of my skwew is none of your business.

If the question is "does Moody give away more penalties than other flankers" then it seems quite reasonable to check his recent games. I picked 10 because it was a small managebale and arbritrary number.
I didnt include the game he started on the bench as that would have skewed the results.

Im sure you could do a more in depth analaysis but its enough to suggest he isnt the penalty machine people say he is comapred to other flankers.
If he can start 10 games without givng away 2 penalties in any of them (and I dont know how long before that) he cant be that much of a liability compared to say Richie Mccaw who we all know referees pick on.

Its not a perfect analaysis of course but if you say "does anyone have the stats" dont throw a pickle when someone produces them just because they dont back up your opinion

(edit to repsond to later post)

They come from scrum.com, just went through his recent games. Yeah he will have come off for some, but so will other flankers. I didnt include anything from replacements, and I didnt include the game he started on the bench.

Careeer wise he may have ben a liability, now he doesnt appear to be form this limited analysis.

Its not as biased by referees/competition as comparing him to a glabal all time average because flankers form both sides , and the flanker hes playing alongisde, are subject to those same conditions as he is.

by robbo277 Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:51 pm

I think his last International starts were:

3 Home end-of-year Tests (New Zealand, Australia and South Africa - I believe Fourie started against Samoa)
2 Away mid-year Tests (Australia twice)
4 Six Nations 2010 games (benched against Scotland)

That's 9. The 10th would have probably been the final AI of 2009, which was against New Zealand.

by tomathy Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:56 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

They come from scrum.com, just went through his recent games. Yeah he will have come off for some, but so will other flankers. I didnt include anything from replacements, and I didnt include the game he started on the bench.

not many, i'd guess, given he was captain for half of them.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:59 pm

Ah you see, but if you are taken off because you are conceding penalties, then it makes your stats look better, whereas in effect the reverse is true.

And for the record, it wasn't me who asked for the stats originally.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:08 pm

True GG but thats equaly true for any of the flankers. Since he hasnt conceded more than one in any of those games id suggest it was others who would be dragged of for that.

From memory though he did come off in a few of those games.

Anyway the statistics certainly dont point to the idea that hes any more penalised than the average player in his position. Its not like the period when Tindall and Vickery were avergaing a yellow card a game between them.

by tomathy Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:10 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Ah you see, but if you are taken off because you are conceding penalties, then it makes your stats look better, whereas in effect the reverse is true.

And for the record, it wasn't me who asked for the stats originally.

the stats posted show that he hasn't given away 2 penalties in an england game for at least two years. I don't think coaches tend to replace flankers for giving away one penalty.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:17 pm

GG I don't have them to hand, that's why I said I would take it back if someone could show otherwise.

I don't have them to hand because I have a job and don't know where you would find them. If you want to link a decent site to look them up then I'm happy to do so.

The reason I was saying it was from watching Moody play in his last few years at Leicester and from watching him play for England, in which time I cannot remember him giving away any more than anyone else.

by robbo277 Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:23 pm

Quick bit of research on Moody, starting with the New Zealand game in 2009:

New Zealand: Played the full 80
Wales: Came off after 76 minutes
Italy: Came off after 79 minutes
Ireland: Came off after 55 minutes (having conceded 0 penalties)
France: Played the full 80
Australia: Came off after 66 minutes (having conceded 0 penalties)
Australia: Played the full 80
New Zealand: Came off after 66 minutes (having conceded 0 penalties)
Australia: Played the full 80
South Africa: Played the full 80

So the three times he's been brought off early in a match, he hasn't conceded a penalty.

As an aside, he came on in the 61st minute against Scotland, and gave away 0 penalties.

Any other theories?

Lewis Moody's Scrum.com profile Click the "details" link for more information on any particular game, then go to "ENG Stats" to see penalties conceded by each player playing in that game.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:27 pm

Robbo277, Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler and Tomathy,

Thanks for searching the stats.

Now I know about scrum.com I can look some up in the future if I need to so thanks for that too.

I think it's fairly conclusive. Moody may not be the best player in the world but he is no longer a penalty machine.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:29 pm

A flanker? who isn't conceding penalties? no wonder they brought him off. He's clearly not pushing the envelope far enough.

The strategy is to keep pushing it until you get pinged, then back off.

No wonder England's backline are starved of ball!

by tomathy Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:31 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:Robbo277, Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler and Tomathy,

Thanks for searching the stats.

Now I know about scrum.com I can look some up in the future if I need to so thanks for that too.

I think it's fairly conclusive. Moody may not be the best player in the world but he is no longer a penalty machine.

I did no searching. Just restated them. Thanks to whoever it was.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Who's editing my posts? it's remarkably frustrating.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:34 pm

GG, "he supplies a constant stream of penalties." was your previous quote. Should we take it as an admission that you were wrong when you said this?

TheGreyGhost wrote:A flanker? who isn't conceding penalties? no wonder they brought him off. He's clearly not pushing the envelope far enough.

The strategy is to keep pushing it until you get pinged, then back off.

No wonder England's backline are starved of ball!

Noone said he was an amazing player, we just said he didn't leak penalties.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:47 pm

Of course 0 penalties in the games where he was so ineffective that he was subbed means those 20 penalties were conceded in the remaining matches, which bumps up the average considerably. Penalty machine.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:49 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Of course 0 penalties in the games where he was so ineffective that he was subbed means those 20 penalties were conceded in the remaining matches, which bumps up the average considerably. Penalty machine.

by greenandpleasantland Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:51 pm

I suggest that this thread is dead...Once again Grey Ghost has struck. It doesn't matter what evidence is provided....GG will claim that you are wrong or have misinterpreted the data or are deliberately skewing the results. Whatever you say GG has asserted that Moody is a penalty machine and will not accept any position to the contrary. Well done GG...why do you and Nottins feel the need to wreck threads with your stupidity.
It seems that any thread concerning England or an english player will attract him and his delight in being deliberately insulting.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:53 pm

Well if you're going to throw your toys out of the cot just because I have a different opinion it's always going to end like this isn't it?

Ok then. For arguments sake, Moody is the world's premier flanker who additionally has a very economical return on penalties. Using this axiom, go on with whatever point you were about to make...

by robbo277 Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:56 pm

He conceded 5 penalties in 761 minutes (9 and a half times 80 minutes) over his last 11 international matches. You (and possibly others) asked for the stats, there you have them.

by Guest Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:57 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Well if you're going to throw your toys out of the cot just because I have a different opinion it's always going to end like this isn't it?

It's not just about a difference of opinion though, is it? Why do you aim to ensure every English thread descends into baiting and insults so that it gets locked? It's noticable that you don't try and wreck Irish threads. Why is that?

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:59 pm

The Irish threads aren't full of such lamentable nonsense, so I don't feel the need to express my opinion.

by greenandpleasantland Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:00 pm

Wonderful...an accusation of being childish from you.

Your posts are designed to annoy and irritate when it comes to England. For some reason you have a hatred and antipathy for England....i have no idea why...perhaps it is justified...who knows.

Do not try to claim that you are merely taking an objective position...as everyone here knows you are not. Your position is always to belittle England and the English players and supporters.

Your aim is to wind people up and sir...you have succeeded...kudos to you.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:02 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Well if you're going to throw your toys out of the cot just because I have a different opinion it's always going to end like this isn't it?

Ok then. For arguments sake, Moody is the world's premier flanker who additionally has a very economical return on penalties. Using this axiom, go on with whatever point you were about to make...

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but...

The point is that you hold an opinion that you won't change when given facts that entirely contradict it.

You start off calling Moody a penalty machine.

Facts show he is not.

You continue to call him a penalty machine, claiming that the stats are in some way wrong/faulty

You then claim that you have to give away penalties to be good in a direct contadiction of what you said earlier vis a vis:

"Don't really rate him any more to be honest, and he supplies a constant stream of penalties."

and

"Of course 0 penalties in the games where he was so ineffective that he was subbed means those 20 penalties were conceded in the remaining matches, which bumps up the average considerably. Penalty machine"

By all means don't rate him as a player. There are many reasons why he may be limited and not as good as others. Have your opinion and argue your case, but don't try to reason that you were right calling him a penalty machine and that we were wrong to say he is not. No one claimed he was even a good player, we just claimed he does not give away more penalties than other back rows.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:03 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:The Irish threads aren't full of such lamentable nonsense, so I don't feel the need to express my opinion.

What lamentable nonsense?

The claim that Moody isn't a penalty machine. A fact you have conceded? That is lamentable nonsense?

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:04 pm

Nonsense, I love England. It's like a second home to me. And a number of other Kiwis. Some better at rugby than others.

There's a culture shift going on in English rugby. It started by identifying that the raw talent didn't exist in England, so they imported it from somewhere that it did. New Zealand and South Africa mostly.

Secondly, as Tindall has been point out today in the BBC. In 2003 England were tremendously boring. They're now trying to remedy that. All this defending the 10 man guff we had to endure is clearly even tired and stale for the players, so they're trying to become more like New Zealand. Good on them.

Finally, they've realised that as with all things, the best way to change is to re-brand. How better to re-brand than to go from white to black? They may be the diet pepsi version of New Zealand at the moment, but their head is clearly in the right place.

Best of luck to them. If I'm a little harsh, it's probably only that I care.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:05 pm

Why can't you just say "fair enough, he isn't a penalty machine"

You could then go back to the original posting and say:

"Despite this I feel he is not worth his place in the England team"

You could follow this up with comments about his ability at playing rugby that you feel back up your point.

by Guest Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:06 pm

Back on topic please folks, or at least as much as possible without the tiresome squabbling.

The GG I edited your post earlier, removed a word that could have inflamed the situation, and seeing how this thread has developed, appears it was a good decision. Forgot to leave an edit note though sorry.

Everyone, please try and behave yourselves.

by Effervescing Elephant Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:08 pm

Ahh you're soundly beaten so you retreat to your old scratched record of foreign imports and 'stolen' kits. I'd leave it there if i were you. Thankfully i am not.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:12 pm

BACK ON TOPIC

I think Johnson should play him anyway. He needs game time and we'll see how he does. If he gets back to his top form then he should be in the team and captain. If he doesn't then the question of who should captain the side at the world cup comes around again. Good decision Johnson.

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:16 pm

I think Waldrom would be a good shout as captain if he recovers from injury. Can't hurt to have the player of the AP at the helm, right?

by greenandpleasantland Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:17 pm

I think England need him as he does have experience and this England team as a lot of neophyte players. However i'm not all that sure he's the player who could turn a game round on his own. I think he's very brave but a bit limited and not a great link man. But since this will be his last hurrah let's see how he goes in the warm-ups.

by screamingaddabs Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:27 pm

greenandpleasantland wrote:I think England need him as he does have experience and this England team as a lot of neophyte players. However i'm not all that sure he's the player who could turn a game round on his own. I think he's very brave but a bit limited and not a great link man. But since this will be his last hurrah let's see how he goes in the warm-ups.

Agreed,

With his experience of playing the big games (it will be his third world cup!) I reckon there's no way he'll stay at home, but being the captain? Only if he comes good again. For me, if he starts a game, he skippers. If he comes off at 60mins then either Tindall, Easter or A.N Other take over.

by G2 Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:28 pm

I tend to agree if Moody is to play a part in the WC then he has to play in at least 1 if not 2 of these matches, Croft, Wood & Haskell in my mind are certain to go, if Moody excels in the warm ups then he will go and probably as captain as well.

I’d rather see a selection problem of worrying who you leave out as they are all playing well than trying to make do picking the least worst

by funnyExiledScot Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:34 pm

The reason I'd drop Moody from the first XV isn't because I don't think he's a good player, but rather I think Tom Wood is a better one.

I think Wood is fitter and will get through more work, is physically stronger and is on better form. Moody's body is battered to pieces, he can pretty much only see out of one eye these days and is a head on collision away from long term damage. His injury record this season and in recent seasons backs this up.

This is one time where I think it would be a proactive and positive piece of management, and in no way suggests that Moody isn't up to the job, he clearly is. I'd still take him to the WC, just as back-up to Wood.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:39 pm

I think Waldrom would be a good shout as captain if he recovers from injury. Can't hurt to have the player of the AP at the helm, right?.

His inclusion was I presume based on him being an impact sub in the same way Tigers have taken to use him. Needs to up his work rate and gain better control at the base of the scrum if he wants to be a regular starter at Tigers.

if Moody excels in the warm ups then he will go and probably as captain as well.

He's too much of a talisman for England. He happily throws himself into danger and it is good for morale that there is that level of unwavering passion in the squad. Plus the opposition know he will be a nightmare for every minute he's on the pitch and so you can normally see most half backs trying to rush the ball away before Moody gets there.

by snoopster Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:10 pm

Not really a surprise to see Moody picked - captain before he was injured and no one has put their hand up for the role while he was missing. Wood is, I think, the better player now but I don't think his edge in terms of playing over Moody outweighs the leadership that Moody brings to the team - England can't afford to go into games without it.

Seriously - how many posts from GG to establish.... well nothing at all relevant to the post. He's dead set on spamming any threads he can about England isn't he?

by TheGreyGhost Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:14 pm

Spam? Moi?

by Geordie Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:17 pm

Well, i have to say i too would go for Wood over Moody....but then who am i to go against a World Cup winner in MJ eh......

But as many have said before its better to have too many options than not enough.

Of course....it all might be irrelevant if Moody continues his injury proneness of recent times.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:21 pm

It's certainly a close call Geordie I think a lot will come down to the performances in the friendlies, if Mad Dog is at his mouth foaming best then I think Wood will have to take a place on the bench. Wood offers a willing hand at the breakdown and a noticeable work rate that England may well turn to should Mad Dog have become house trained at Bath.

by Geordie Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:23 pm

"should Mad Dog have become house trained at Bath"

Ha ha Very Happy

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:24 pm

TheGreyGhost wrote:Spam? Moi?

I believe

sums it up perfectly at the moment

by snoopster Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:56 pm

Kiwireddevil wrote:
TheGreyGhost wrote:Spam? Moi?

I believe sums it up perfectly at the moment

by TheGreyGhost Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:55 am

Meh, it made sense when there were 3 identical posts.

by Mr Thunder Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:12 am

I'll tell you someone who should be penalised for giving away penalties - Ritchie McCaw. I think the NZ v SA game was the first time in ages a referee has had the guts to stand up to him and actually penalise him for cheating. Very Happy

by TheGreyGhost Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:38 pm

by Mr Thunder Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:13 pm

- cheer up GG, if I sound like a broken record then so do you.

by TheGreyGhost Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:16 pm

McCaw cheats less blatantly than Wayne Barnes.

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