CONFIRMED: England team to face Wales

First topic message reminder :

Confirmed on RFU website:

Armitage - Irish
Banahan - Bath
Tuilagi - Leicester
Flutey - Wasps
Cueto - Sale
Wilkinson - Toulon
Care - Quins

Corbisiero - Irish
Hartley - Saints
Stevens - Saracens
Shaw - Wasps
Palmer - Stade
Croft - Leicester
Moody - Bath
Haskell - Ricoh Black Rams

Mears - Bath
Wilson - Bath
Botha - Saracens
Wood - Saints
Wigglesworth - Saracens
Hodgson - Saracens
Sharples - Gloucester


I like it. Nice to see they're ensuring we've got some back up for Easter. If flutey has regained some form in the training camp then the midfield could be really good. Sharples is on the bench so will be good to see if he comes on.

Look neither Wales nor England are going to pick a full side.

There will be some last minute chances for a few players, a few injuries so second or third choice guys starting etc.

I want to see Wales select 10 or 11 first choice players though as I think England will when the actual team is announced.

robbo277 wrote:

tomathy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sam I included Wigglesworth because he works well with Hodgson.

Perfectly willing to be corrected on this, but I can't think of when they've ever played together before

As Sam said, at Sale. But I think beshocked just wants Johnson to re-form their half-back partnership so they are more familiar when they get back to Sarries...

There is that but it's what would benefit England. It was a successful partnership at Sale. Hopefully they can do the same for England and Sarries.

What time is the team announcement? I too lazy to open another tab to check!

I am surprised MJ has put out a second string team, but I have to agree it is a good ploy as we know what the first team can do from the 6N.

The more time given to see 50/50 players so we can be 100% sure of them if they are picked.

It will be a good test against the welsh as they have left first teamers out but personally I think they have put out a slightly stronger side. It will still be a close game though that we could still should be aiming to win.

However don't know if this is the official side and it could be slightly different but seems correct if you trust what the newspapers are saying.

One problem is that this could mean MJ is completely set on his 1st team and just wants to figure out back up and fitness fro players who have been out. Eliminating the chance for players like Tuilagi, Flutey and Banahan to start and liven up the English centres.

Thing is every player whos under consideration should be given at least one start and one bench appearance through teh 3 warm up games.

It would make most sense to save the preferred first choice lineup for the last of teh 3, since then youll have the best idea what it is.

We can see from this some things we already knew... eg Care and Wilko are the second choice half back pairing, and it makes sense to give them time as they woudl be on the bench and play at least10 minutes of most games as a pair.

Theres some things that will be experiemented with, others like Youngs Flood are pretty much set in stone.

but I've read that Johnson is only going to take two flyhalves and use Flutey as emergency cover. Hodgson is the one who is going to miss out if that is true..

Foden mentioned in an interview (I think with Sky) that he has been practising at scrum half in case of an emergency as has Flutey. Wonder then whether England will take only 2 scrummies and 2 fly halfs in order to allow them to take 4 centres (Hape, Flutey, Tindall, Manu) and 4 wingers (Cueto, Ashton, Banahan, Sharples). Add 2 fbs and that would be 14 in a standard 16/14 forwards/backs split.

beshocked wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

tomathy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Sam I included Wigglesworth because he works well with Hodgson.

Perfectly willing to be corrected on this, but I can't think of when they've ever played together before

As Sam said, at Sale. But I think beshocked just wants Johnson to re-form their half-back partnership so they are more familiar when they get back to Sarries...

There is that but it's what would benefit England. It was a successful partnership at Sale. Hopefully they can do the same for England and Sarries.

I was only teasing really. I think Simpson will go, as neither are likely to start and Simpson's pace coming off the bench could be key to unlocking teams. Wigglesworth does offer cover at 9 and 10 though, which is an attractive option as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

but I've read that Johnson is only going to take two flyhalves and use Flutey as emergency cover. Hodgson is the one who is going to miss out if that is true..

Foden mentioned in an interview (I think with Sky) that he has been practising at scrum half in case of an emergency as has Flutey. Wonder then whether England will take only 2 scrummies and 2 fly halfs in order to allow them to take 4 centres (Hape, Flutey, Tindall, Manu) and 4 wingers (Cueto, Ashton, Banahan, Sharples). Add 2 fbs and that would be 14 in a standard 16/14 forwards/backs split.

Given that the bulk of the English backs are capable (and in a few cases more than comfortable) in two or more positions maybe that is not a bad idea.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

but I've read that Johnson is only going to take two flyhalves and use Flutey as emergency cover. Hodgson is the one who is going to miss out if that is true..

Foden mentioned in an interview (I think with Sky) that he has been practising at scrum half in case of an emergency as has Flutey. Wonder then whether England will take only 2 scrummies and 2 fly halfs in order to allow them to take 4 centres (Hape, Flutey, Tindall, Manu) and 4 wingers (Cueto, Ashton, Banahan, Sharples). Add 2 fbs and that would be 14 in a standard 16/14 forwards/backs split.

Given that the bulk of the English backs are capable (and in a few cases more than comfortable) in two or more positions maybe that is not a bad idea.

surely having versatile players in the outside backs would mean that we didn't need to take 4 centres, 4 wingers and 2 backs, but could focus on the more specialist positions?

I remember an article abou 4-5 years ago in rugby world that was predicting the future. One prediction was the gradual disappearance of positions for many of the backs, with them all playing anywhere in the back line dependent on what they felt like trying at the time.

I'm not saying we're anywhere near this, but it does seem that more and more players are "versatile" these days.

A 3rd scrum half always struck me as a bit superfluous. I doubt they would play anyway, even if one injury happened (they'd just warm the bench). hence, using Foden as backup kind of makes sense.

screamingaddabs wrote:I remember an article abou 4-5 years ago in rugby world that was predicting the future. One prediction was the gradual disappearance of positions for many of the backs, with them all playing anywhere in the back line dependent on what they felt like trying at the time.

I'm not saying we're anywhere near this, but it does seem that more and more players are "versatile" these days.

A 3rd scrum half always struck me as a bit superfluous. I doubt they would play anyway, even if one injury happened (they'd just warm the bench). hence, using Foden as backup kind of makes sense.

I would have said the same for including Alex Goode as a fullback and emergency FH rather than taking Hodgson but there you go.

Fullback though is one of those where I really like to see a specialist player. The trend for playing 3 wingers died with France getting pumelled with Argentinas long kicking game, even more so with the elvs.
Flexible players there now tend to be fullbacks who can cover wing, rather than wingers who can cover fullback...see Monye for an example of what happens there. Or Ian Balshaw.

Well done to all the arm chair critics, you've given me a good laugh anyway.

Without having seen all that Johnson saw in the training camps, it's hard to judge 100%, but I do think we have enough talent in this team to be expecting a win against Wales at home. It'll be interesting to see what Wales bring though.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Given that the bulk of the English backs are capable (and in a few cases more than comfortable) in two or more positions maybe that is not a bad idea.

Isnt that what Topsy Ojo got in trouble for on that New Zealand tour?

It's a good side, and everyone seems to agree that the potential in the Flutey/Tuilagi partnership is the main talking point here, and other than the prop selection, few moans.

I can't see Wales winning with the team rumoured to be picked.

I really like this team, given the context. I think he's got it spot on.

Plenty of people with opportunities to prove their worth. Let's just hope some of them do and it clicks.

Of those, I would like to see:

Banahan prove that he's best on the wing after all.

Haskell to prove that he's a viable backup to Easter at 8 (hell, maybe even to push him for a starting berth!).

Flutey and Tuilagi to prove the value of penetration and creativity in the midfield.

COME ON ENGLAND!!

England Team has been annouced to face Wales on Saturday.

Backs
15 = D Armitage (London Irish)
14 = M Banahan (Bath Rugby)
13 = M Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
12 = R Flutey (London Wasps)
11 = M Cueto (Sale Sharks)
10 = J Wilkinson (Toulon)
9 = D Care (Harlequins)

Forwards
1 = A Corbisiero (London Irish)
2 = D Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 = M Stevens (Saracens)
4 = S Shaw (Unattached)
5 = T Palmer (Stade Francais)
6 = T Croft (Leicester Tigers)
7 = L Moody (Bath Rugby, capt)
8 = J Haskell (Ricoh Black Rams).

Replacements: L Mears (Bath Rugby), D Wilson (Bath Rugby), M Botha (Saracens), T Wood (Northampton Saints), R Wigglesworth (Saracens), C Hodgson (Saracens), C Sharples (Gloucester Rugby).

What do we think? I like that they have put Haskell at 8 and looking forward to seeing Flutey/Tuilagi combo.

Tomathy - I can see where your coming from, however I see it more along the lines of you want the bench players to be able to adjust the way the game is played. Looking at the likely fly halves that is achieved already. Even if Hodgeson went to the RWC he would only be a tackling dummy. Whereas if you take four centres (two flashy two smash merchants) then they can change the game.

not sure yet but simpsons omission from the bench seems to indicate he wont be going to NZ. thats a shame because i think he has the potential to be the best scrum half bar none. I understand wigglesworths ability to cover fly half could open up another space however, and this could allow manu or sharples to be included.

glad haskell is finally getting some game time at 8, as there are no other 8's in the squad of 40.

the props situation is interesting, 2 not involved in the 22 at all and probably the 2 most would expect not to make it... will payne and PDJ be given a chance in the second wales test?

HQ matt wrote:the props situation is interesting, 2 not involved in the 22 at all and probably the 2 most would expect not to make it... will payne and PDJ be given a chance in the second wales test?

Make that 4. Cole and Sheridan aren't around for this game either.

correct tomathy, think you'll agree those 2 are pretty much dead certs.

Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

robbo277 wrote:Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

Lawes for Shaw

Bench looks more promising than the actual team!


Thought I would compare it to a potential Saxons team.


A potential Saxons side

1.Marler
2.Webber
3.Vunipola
4.Attwood
5.Borthwick
6.Johnson
7.Saull
8.Narraway
9.Hodgson
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Lowe
14.JSD
15.Goode

Backline looks much better than the backline on saturday!

beshocked wrote:Bench looks more promising than the actual team!


Thought I would compare it to a potential Saxons team.


A potential Saxons side

...
9.Hodgson
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Lowe
14.JSD
15.Goode

Backline looks much better than the backline on saturday!

I put the ones where I disagree in bold

EDIT: actually there's a couple of tricky ones. Goode vs Armitage for example. I can't even slightly agree with your view on this though.

Hodgson over Care, nah
Farrell over Wilkinson, you are having a laugh
Strettle over Cueto, nearer, but I'd still choose Cueto
Barritt over Flutey, fair enough on current form
Lowe over Tuilagi, nah
JSD over Banahan, fair enough
Goode over Armitage, fair enough on current form

"backline looks much better..."

um, no it doesn't. Sorry. 3 are better. Worse at the key positions of 9 and 10. Most of them completely unproven at test level.

robbo277 wrote:Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

I'd put Sheridan on the bench. Is he in form? I don't know and would want to find out.

Slightly worried about this side. Obviously a "see how they go" side and not a first choice side. The need to see how some players perform with a view to selection in the 30man squad is a consideration but I feel this match is too late to be doing that sort of thing. Surely we should be letting the A-side out of their cage especially at home. A loss to Wales at home will not be a good start to the RWC campaign. Conversely a win would be exceptionally good for morale but feel taking chances now can easily backfire. Fingers crossed, is all I can say.

Team to face England:

15. Rhys Priestland
14. George North
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Shane Williams
10. Stephen Jones
9. Michael Phillips
8. Toby Faletau
7. Sam Warburton (c)
6. Dan Lydiate
5. Alun Wyn Jones
4. Bradley Davies
3. Craig Mitchell
2. Huw Bennett
1. Paul James



Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/08/04/priestland-and-faletau-but-no-henson-in-wales-line-up-to-face-england-91466-29177947/#ixzz1U3tPe1qL

beshocked wrote:Bench looks more promising than the actual team!


Thought I would compare it to a potential Saxons team.


A potential Saxons side

1.Marler
2.Webber
3.Vunipola
4.Attwood
5.Borthwick
6.Johnson
7.Saull
8.Narraway
9.Hodgson
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Lowe
14.JSD
15.Goode

Backline looks much better than the backline on saturday!

Goode over Armitage and Attwood over Shaw. Keep the rest in the Saxons.

robbo277 wrote:Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

Monye in for Cueto, only because Lawes may still be nursing a neck injury and i don't want to ruch him back.

doctornickolas wrote:Team to face England:

15. Rhys Priestland
14. George North
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Shane Williams
10. Stephen Jones
9. Michael Phillips
8. Toby Faletau
7. Sam Warburton (c)
6. Dan Lydiate
5. Alun Wyn Jones
4. Bradley Davies
3. Craig Mitchell
2. Huw Bennett
1. Paul James



Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/08/04/priestland-and-faletau-but-no-henson-in-wales-line-up-to-face-england-91466-29177947/#ixzz1U3tPe1qL

That's a lot of international players in there, how many played in the recent 6N's? Strong team i think, could be a close game and a lot will come down to how well partnerships have gelled together.

Can you post the bench? I take it from the article Henson isn't on the bench either then?

Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

Deacon in for Shaw. Deacon was central to the good displays by the pack during the 6N and has barely been able to play since. Needs the game time.

screamingaddabs wrote:Hodgson over Care, nah
Farrell over Wilkinson, you are having a laugh
Strettle over Cueto, nearer, but I'd still choose Cueto
Barritt over Flutey, fair enough on current form
Lowe over Tuilagi, nah
JSD over Banahan, fair enough
Goode over Armitage, fair enough on current form

"backline looks much better..."

um, no it doesn't. Sorry. 3 are better. Worse at the key positions of 9 and 10. Most of them completely unproven at test level.

The way I see it.

The half backs of the current England team are better. Kind of hard to pick when I have to choose the 5th or 6th choice half backs. On the other hand Strettle > Cueto, Barritt > Flutey, Lowe and Manu - equal, JSD > Banahan, Goode > Armitage.

The fact you agree with 3 of my picks shows where the flaws in the actual England team lie.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

but I've read that Johnson is only going to take two flyhalves and use Flutey as emergency cover. Hodgson is the one who is going to miss out if that is true..

Foden mentioned in an interview (I think with Sky) that he has been practising at scrum half in case of an emergency as has Flutey. Wonder then whether England will take only 2 scrummies and 2 fly halfs in order to allow them to take 4 centres (Hape, Flutey, Tindall, Manu) and 4 wingers (Cueto, Ashton, Banahan, Sharples). Add 2 fbs and that would be 14 in a standard 16/14 forwards/backs split.

Given that the bulk of the English backs are capable (and in a few cases more than comfortable) in two or more positions maybe that is not a bad idea.

From a Sarries point of view I would be very pleased with that. From an England point of view if MJ wants to fall on his sword I will happily sharpen and supply one for him.

yappysnap wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Team to face England:

15. Rhys Priestland
14. George North
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Shane Williams
10. Stephen Jones
9. Michael Phillips
8. Toby Faletau
7. Sam Warburton (c)
6. Dan Lydiate
5. Alun Wyn Jones
4. Bradley Davies
3. Craig Mitchell
2. Huw Bennett
1. Paul James



Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/08/04/priestland-and-faletau-but-no-henson-in-wales-line-up-to-face-england-91466-29177947/#ixzz1U3tPe1qL

That's a lot of international players in there, how many played in the recent 6N's? Strong team i think, could be a close game and a lot will come down to how well partnerships have gelled together.

Can you post the bench? I take it from the article Henson isn't on the bench either then?

Replacements: Lloyd Burns, Ryan Bevington, Luke Charteris, Ryan Jones, Tavis Knoyle, Scott Williams, Morgan Stoddart



I would argue that that is our first choice team at the moment. The only area where it possibly isn't is the front row. But our first and second choice hookers are injured and Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are not quite fit yet after long periods out last year. Mitchell and Paul James played in the 6 nations though and Bennett, whilst no ones favourite hooker in Wales is very experienced.

Hook and Byrne missing with minor injuries but no place at all for Henson.

Glad to see Roberts at 12 and Jon Davies at 13 instead of the other way around.

I think Wales are looking to win this not mess around.

beshocked wrote:

The half backs of the current England team are better. Kind of hard to pick when I have to choose the 5th or 6th choice half backs. On the other hand Strettle > Cueto, Barritt > Flutey, Lowe and Manu - equal, JSD > Banahan, Goode > Armitage.

If the two backlines played each other behind comparable packs I would bet a decent amount of money that the lineup MJ has gone for would absolutely tear them to shreds. Your lineup just wouldn't be powerful enough in attack or strong enough in defence at all.

beshocked wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Hodgson over Care, nah
Farrell over Wilkinson, you are having a laugh
Strettle over Cueto, nearer, but I'd still choose Cueto
Barritt over Flutey, fair enough on current form
Lowe over Tuilagi, nah
JSD over Banahan, fair enough
Goode over Armitage, fair enough on current form

"backline looks much better..."

um, no it doesn't. Sorry. 3 are better. Worse at the key positions of 9 and 10. Most of them completely unproven at test level.

The way I see it.

The half backs of the current England team are better. Kind of hard to pick when I have to choose the 5th or 6th choice half backs. On the other hand Strettle > Cueto, Barritt > Flutey, Lowe and Manu - equal, JSD > Banahan, Goode > Armitage.

The fact you agree with 3 of my picks shows where the flaws in the actual England team lie.

Yes and no. It shows where Johnson is using different criteria. Rightly or wrongly he has in general gone for players that he knows CAN perform at international level. You know from previous postings I agree with you about the inside centres. The choice of Armitage over Goode is because he knows that Armitage can perform. He obviously believes he can make him do so and has seen something in the training camps too.

The only selection you disagree with that doesn't have a more experienced player (at international level) taking the place ahead of a less experienced one is Lowe/Tuilagi, where both have no experience.

So over all I would say that MJ has just used different selection criteria (and I guess this is what you disagree with).

I wouldn't say that outside the centres there are too many flaws at all with the England team. The 3 picks I agree with you on are fairly marginal decisions in my eyes and are for 3 players who will probably be back ups for the world cup anyway.

tomathy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

The half backs of the current England team are better. Kind of hard to pick when I have to choose the 5th or 6th choice half backs. On the other hand Strettle > Cueto, Barritt > Flutey, Lowe and Manu - equal, JSD > Banahan, Goode > Armitage.

If the two backlines played each other behind comparable packs I would bet a decent amount of money that the lineup MJ has gone for would absolutely tear them to shreds. Your lineup just wouldn't be powerful enough in attack or strong enough in defence at all.

You would be throwing your money away. You really think 4 of the members of the best defence in the AP will have rubbish defence? The Quins defence was pretty good too.

I wouldn't see anyone getting past Barritt or Lowe. Farrell is one of the best defensive fly halves in the AP. JSD and Strettle are two of the best wingers in the AP.

Farrell is one of the best defensive fly halves in the AP.

Relies heavilly on the Sarries kick chase to make him look good though. Up against Wilko would be a very interesting contest but I think Wilko's experience and greater range of passing and kicking options would be telling in the end (as you'd expect from a seasonsed international vs a promising teenager).

I wouldn't see anyone getting past Barritt or Lowe

They're good but they aren't that good, Barritt is a ferocious tackler head on but the channels around him are usually covered by the mighty Sarries backrow. It'd be no easy task but I think if the England team picked on the 13 channel they could probabley isolate Lowe and use the power of Banahan and Manu to force a way past him. Neither Strettle or JSD are known for their defensive strengths, wouldn't hold much hope of Banahan catching either of them though.

robbo277 wrote:Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

I'd shift Stevens to loosehead, start Wilson and put Corbisiero on the bench. Not a massive change, but I prefer Stevens at loosehead and I think Wilson should get a chance to show what he can do.

Deacon in for Shaw.
Monye in for Cueto.
Sheridan in for Wilson.
Lawes in for Shaw.
Shuffle the props.

Two votes for Shaw to come out. I think we'll see Botha come on for Shaw at one point, and then one of those two players fall out the reckoning. Next week I think we'll see Deacon and Lawes with one of Botha and Shaw on the bench, then we'll see one of Deacon and Lawes with Palmer, and the other one on the bench. So I don't have too much problem with Shaw starting if he's going to do something like this.

I would have liked to see Sharples start, possibly at Cueto's expense. Either that or put Monye on the bench for Sharples and give Sharples a start next week.

Sam it is a little unfair comparing Care and Wilkinson to Hodgson and Farrell specifically. Farrell is 19.

I am more interested in comparing the rest of the backline.

Strettle and JSD have a lot more pace and elusiveness than Cueto and Banahan.

Lowe and Tuilagi cancel each other out.

Barritt would smash Flutey all day long.

Goode would to be too goode for Armitage.

Also it depends on the pack behind it. With a full strength English pack it could work.

robbo277 wrote:Here's a question, if you could make just 1 change to this England 22, what would it be?

(directed at everyone)

Sharples for Banahan to be swapped over. There is a real lack of pace in the starting back three. The choice of who to drop was between Cueto and Banahan and there needs to be some more experience in the backline.

Barritt would smash Flutey all day long

Flutey is very good defensively, Barritt would crash over the gainline but I doubt they'd be any breaks through the ten channel. Flip it round and Flutey has a far superior creative and kicking game, all depends on what form Flutey would turn up in. Don't agree with Lowe cancelling out Manu, Manu would make an impact on Lowe and would make yards on the outside and just through crashing.

Goode would to be too goode for Armitage.

I would have agreed before the Churchill Cup where Goode's displays were somewhat underwhelming. He looks quality attacking from deep with the support of his wingers but when it comes to coming into the line and picking an angle he looks a little lost.

beshocked wrote:Sam it is a little unfair comparing Care and Wilkinson to Hodgson and Farrell specifically. Farrell is 19.

I am more interested in comparing the rest of the backline.

Strettle and JSD have a lot more pace and elusiveness than Cueto and Banahan.

Lowe and Tuilagi cancel each other out.

Barritt would smash Flutey all day long.

Goode would to be too goode for Armitage.

Also it depends on the pack behind it. With a full strength English pack it could work.

Beshocked, you are the one who put them into a comparison!

I disagree with a lot of your choices. I would have Alex Goode over Armitage, but I don't think there's much in any of the other shouts. I'm not sure how much creativity there is in the Farrell/Barritt 10/12 axis, and I think that Simpson-Daniel and Strettle might struggle to see the ball (I've never rated Strettle that highly anyway) and I think Armitage is good enough under the high ball to live with a kicking strategy.

"Lowe and Tuilagi cancel each other out."


In what way? Tuilagi is quite clearly a better player in every respect. I really don't understand the whole Lowe hype.

Why is it unfair to compare Hodgson with Care? Both are good, but Care is better.

I agree that Goode has shown better form this season than Armitage though, and would have been a more useful option in the squad, but we'll see on Saturday what sort of shape Armitage is in. When on form, he's a brilliant player.

I'm extremely happy with this side overall, especially with Haskell getting a start at 8, I have always thought he could be Englands future there.

Sam are you talking about the 2011 Flutey or 2009 Flutey?

Any Quins going to back me up about George Lowe?

I am sure that on form Armitage and Flutey are as good as Muliana and Nonu but they haven't shown they are in form.

Also are you talking about 2009 Armitage or 2011 Armitage?