A Game of Thrones - A Song of Ice and Fire

Hi everyone,

Was wondering if anybody has read the books by George R. R. Martin. I have just recently finished watching the TV series that HBO made, which is based on the first book, and i loved it. I have never been into fantasy that much but enjoyed The Lord of the Rings, the films, and the Terry Pratchett programmes on Sky were good . A Game of Thrones seems to focus more and humans/factions battling for the throne with Dragons, Wolfs and Whitewalkers the only creatures that seems to be present just now, and they seem to take a back seat for the most part. It looks to bet set in Medieval Britain with Castles, Kings, Lords etc featured heavily. Book number 5 : A Dance With Dragons, seems to have just recently been released and so the books are not finished yet. I don't know if i can wait a year at a time to find out what happens in the TV series, i'm willing to read nearly a 1000 pages a book to get through the story quicker, and feel i know enough about the people and the story that i would be able to read the books, but have never read fantasy. Although the reviews are great there are also a lot who did not enjoy the books, some from when they were released but also some who purchased them after really enjoying the TV series like myself, and found they did not like it. Even a lot of good reviews state that to much information is given at times to certain people/clans etc that have no relevance to the story and are never mentioned again, each chapter also follows a certain character and it seems it can be many chapters before this part of the story is picked up again. Would appreciate any comments from anybody who has read the books, attempted too, or knows anything about them, Thanks, GG.

hi there.

I myself have just finished reading book 3 and have just started on book 4, and personally I am completely and utterly addicted to them.

The TV series was done really well, barely any changes from the book so if you enjoyed the show I'm guessing you'll like the first book.

It is true that the chapters follow characters, and sometimes you have to wait a while before picking up a certain story line again, but nearly always the characters' journeys are running parallel with each other so it kind of has to happen. I like how you get a glimps on what each "clan" is doing as it were. Some parts of the books to get a bit confusing, and sometimes you can lose track of who is who exactly, but Martin explains things really well and the chapters just seem to flow into each other, so if you are confused it usually gets resolved pretty soon.

But I love that he's got such a great scope to his work. And while I guess it's termed fantasy, it isn't overly entrenched in the fantasy genre so I think for a first time fantasy reader it might just be worth a shot.

I hope you give them a go anyway, and if you do, let us know what you think of them!

I've read them all including the last month release of "A Dance with Dragons" and the earlier books I've read multiple times. I'm a big fantasy genre fan while reading quite a large chunk of the better stuff, as far as I'm concerned Martins series is the 2nd best series to grace the genre (LOTR is not No1).

I'll start with your reservations based on past reviews, trying to give my explanations why they are brought up.

1) Multiple Character POV's - I'd read books like this before so it wasn't a completely new to me coming in to this series. Like anything it takes getting used to jumping from character to character but in essence its what makes the series so strong. It gives you the insight to multiple sides of the conflict adding that grey area thats common in the books, there are no Black/White characters and you get to understand the full picture. The people who cite this as a negative just don't wish to like this writing style and as such never truly give it a chance. I'm not a first person writing style fan for the most part but if the books good enough the telling style of the story doesn't matter.

2) Excess Information - Yes there's historical information and yes some of it is from a world building POV or to add some extra depth into the history of the land. It's never irrelevant rather just extra knowledge for your imagination to bring the book to life. There's is a lot of information that is very relevant but may be so in a book down the line, this is especially true with certain storylines that have ran through all five books. It will not always be obvious but the clues in the little things characters say will offer insights into many of the questions raised in the series.

In all there will be 7 books at this stage (though it started of as 3 then 5), the books should be released every 2/3 years now. So the series at a hope should be completed by around 2016. Martins series was a forerunner on its release in the 90's for a new wave of fantasy, gone were the typical archetypes (Hero, Villian, Damsel etc) and in came a new approach where everyone had there reasons and in many cases even opposing forces would be noble. He also continued the Glen Cook (Black Company) theme of normal characters fighting a war just to survive.

It is fantasy though like much fantasy has taken influences from history and converted them into its own world. In Martins case he used conflicts such as "Hundred Years War" and "War of the Roses" among others as staunch influences in creating Westeros.

That should do for now but if there's any other specific questions you have let me know or if I think of anything else to say I'll be sure to let you know.

Rugbydreamer/Dass, thanks very much for you're detailed replies. Just what i was after. I'm going to buy the first book at the end of the month, i don't think i can wait until next April for the TV series to start again. Dass i would be interested to know what you think is the No1 series in the genre, was having a look at other books and seen Black Company, aswell as some others that people were recommending, such as The Farseer, The Wheel of Time and The Malazan Book of the Fallen, but i don't know much about them.

Yeah don't mind giving my opinions on those mentioned and what would be worth reading in the genre.

As for what I consider the best well its "The Malazan Book of the Fallaen" series by Steven Erikson, the scope involved is immense and makes Martins series look small in terms of the amount of places and characters involved. Its very like Martins series in that there's no goo/bad just lots of forces trying to survive and where no one is very safe. Where it differs is in that Martin tried to base his world in a historic grounding with fantasy elements intertwined into that world. Erikson instead goes for a world full of magic where anything is possible and no one is every sure what games the others are playing. There's a large pantheon of gods (1000's, some in play others long dead), ascendants and just mortals who want there say on things. The scope in the series is immense and impossible to describe in text, it focuses on military campaigns and the wars between all the forces in between. Erikson invented the world while playing a D&D like game with his friend and his imagination is something to behold. What I will say is don't expect a normal story or things to be explained early on about a lot of things this is a series where you might not get answers to certain question till 2 books further on and even when you think you have a grip on things it turns on you (10 book series). The first book is the worst written of them all (still a good story) as it was originally a film script, yet about half way through the book you will have about a million question about races, magic system among many others, lots of things get explained by the end but not all in the first book. You barely scratch the surface but by the end you'll be imaging fantasy fights between multiple characters and who would win scenarios.

"Black Company" was a forerunner as it was one of the first where no character was the hero (best swordsman and all that) but it was the chronicles of a squad of soldiers each with their own abilities and severe limitations. It followed their journey to survive and was a rare delight in a genre that has often become quite formulaic.

"The Farseer Trilogy" by Robin Hobb, not what you'd call a action based book by any stretch yet it had its moments. It follows a B****rd born boy who is adopted into the castle of his father (cue shows everyone his true abilities and wins the day scenario), yet this book rather shows the cruel journey of a Bar Steward and his struggles to survive and his training to become a useful member of the castle. Its at many times quite a harrowing tale and a couple of points I had to stop reading because of the heartache the main character is put through and it doesn't always work out his way. Its about a journey and not all journeys are happy or end happy with some you've just got to hope they don't end to badly and be content with that.

"Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan is typical heroic fantasy with a hero who starts of as a farmer and ends up a King. Its the type of book the fantasy genre is built on and yet thats not a bad thing when done well and for the most part Jordan does it well. It gets heavy criticism for being to long winded at times but in essence its only about 1-2 books to long in a 14 book series. It wasn't for poor writing it was more Jordan took a wrong decision how to write about characters when they were of screen. Its one of the best series of its type and for something so long its quite strong all the way through, unlike "Sword of Truth" by Terry Goodkind which is a 11 book series where only 6 were needed.

David Gemmell, this guy is the king of heroic fantasy he does the simple formulaic like no other writer out there. He borrows heavily from historical events in his writing from Ghengis Khan to the Battle at Thermopylae for his inspiration. Its hard to describe what special quality he has but when you read his books and read the same type of story by someone else Gemmell just does it better.

If you were to start with anyone I'd recommend Gemmell his books aren't overly long and they are easy to get into, fun to read and not overly complicated with names and places etc.

Dass, thanks very much for you're time and Knowledge on the subject.

The Malazan Book of the Fallen was second on the list i was viewing and sounds like the sort of thing i'm after, i'm wanting to look at alternative series as i believe i'm going to really enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire, and hope to catch up with the series long before it ends. The book of the fallen sounds very similair and may be what i go for next.

Black Company sounds very interesting, sounds really dark and i love that it's soldiers just trying to survive, with no heroes, i'm going to have a closer look at this one and find out a little more about it. It was also very high on the list i was looking at.

The Farseer is a book i probably shouldn't read as someone in the reviews i read said there head was a little messed up for a while after, seems like a heavy book but one that i want to read now for some reason. Seems to go into detail with the characters more.

Wheel of Time seems to be the classic fantasy one and was said to be similair to A song of Ice and Fire, if i do enjoy the other ones the i will consider reading them. 14 Books is a long series but will be ok if they are only 1-2 books longer than they should be.

I'm going to have a look at a few of the other books just now but i'm also going to check out you're recommendation on David Gemmell, and see what they look like, thanks very much again for you're info Dass, much appreciated.

I have read the first book and I am currently about a 1/4 through the second one.

I honestly don't think I could recommend a book more. I went a few years where I lost interest in reading but found this series of books when searching the internet. They were extremely up my street so I bought the first one not sure what to expect. Needless to say I am now totally engrossed. The books are superbly written and I think that the points you put down as weaknesses GG are probably it's strengths.

The vast amounts of knowledge Martin gives you allows you to use your imagination a little bit more and definitely helps when you are reading.

As for the chapters being based on a different characters story line, I personally find it brilliant.. There genuinely isn't a boring character throughout the book and I think that following separate stories allows the reader to understand all view points in the book rather than losing them all in a mash which would lead to confusion.

Definitely worth a read mate

Brilliant Steve, thanks for your opinion mate. Definately going to get started at the end of the month, looking forward to them now. Had never heard of them before the TV series and i can't wait for that to start up again next April before i know more, thanks again mate.

Lads just though i would jump in here i read all the books in the last 5 weeks, i couldnt put them down even the parts i didnt like i just read through them to get to the juicy parts
Its a great read.
The series i think nailed them aswell

I decided to read these before watching the TV show. I'm currently reading book 2 and I have to say they are fantastic.

Absolutely loving it so far.

Thanks D24/Celtic, started the first one myself, they are a great series.

I've just bought a Dance with Dragons to take on my holidays but i'm finding it hard not to start reading it before i go.

Another fantasy series i would strongly recomend would be the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie.

Nice one Randy, i'll check them out.

think im very limited in my reading that im normally solely reading fanatsy type books (lotr/hobbitt, paolini, his dark materials etc) so song of fire and ice is right up my street. currently half way through the third book and enjoying them. if you liked the tv series you will like the books, im yet to find a tv series/film to do a book full justice. while jackson did a very good job on lotr and this tv series was done very well the tv series still does lack the depth of characters that you get when reading about them.

the one thing you might find on the books is that some characters/chapters look forward to, while others are not as intresting. i really like tyrion and arya's chapters while catelyn and sansa dont grip me as much. but its all to set the story and you need the information they tell so keeps you going

I have been collecting fantasy type books for years and George Martin is one of my favorites. Absolutely love his books and the latest one seems best of all.

Agree with those recommending Robert Jordan (who died whilst writing the concluding books), Terry Goodkind and Joe Abercombrie.

Can't believe no one has mentioned Stephen Donaldson who is definately up there IMO as one of the best writers in this genre. Also Tad Williams, Gene Wolf and Brian Buckley with some similarities in style and content to Martin.

Have also enjoyed books by Alan Campbell, Hugh Cook and John Marco.

Favorite (dark horror) fantasy of all time though is Nightland by William Hope Hodgson.

Some great authors mentiond there teassoc.

I keep meaning to go back to Shadow and claw by Gene wolf, the first time round I just couldn't get into it.
The first time I tried to read it I was doing my Apprenticeship and couldn't conentrate on it.

Yeah thanks for the tips teassoc, will check them out.

Robert Jordan is the best I've read in the fantasy genre.

The Wheel of Time is immense. It is a bit long-winded (I can't stand all the Aiel crap) but the powers that the characters have and the system of magic is awesome. The fictional world is huge, the characters (100's of them) are vivid and the bad guys are proper bad-ass. The battle between Graendael (one of the Forsaken) and Nynaeve (an accepted) (book 3) is so tense - it's one of my favourite chapters in any book.

I've read the first two books in Martin's series and in all honesty it's like childs play compared to TWOT. It just doesn't have enough magic, wonder or mystery in it for me. Seems more like a medieval political intrigue thing with references to darker occultish forces but nothing magical (or very little) actually happens. The characters don't seem to have any powers. Maybe the rest of the books are better.

Thx Dass for the heads up on The Malazan.



emancipator

If you are into the more high fantasy of WoT then I doubt GoT will ever appeal to you. It's a very low fantasy setting where magic is a undercurrent but not the main focus. On a story complexity level along with depth of character then GoT is miles ahead of WoT for me, I love WoT for what it is and it's a series I've read at least 10 times but GoT is a much deeper and intriguing story for me.

The Malazan series is probably the best of both worlds, has the story complexity and a scope that is astounding. Yet it's characters and world are more rooted in high fantasy.

That seems like a fair assessment Dass.

I have to admit I do prefer classical fantasy somewhat in the style of the LOTR and Jordan is probably the best exponent of that.

TWOT up to book 6 is amazing but then does seem to get a bit bogged down with all the different characters and multiple story lines.

I'm really intrigued about The Malazan series. I think I'll start the first book.

Will let you know what I think.



emancipator - universal expert on fantasy, tennis, mud and BOO (oh BOOO0000ooo..... coooooooooooome baaaaaaaaack)

If you do start the Malazan series don't be put of by the feeling many get of being swamped with questions with no answers after only half the book. It's the sort of book that chucks you in the deep end and watches you floundering about, occasionally using it's boot to drive you under again.

Do agree Jordan is one of the classics for high fantasy if your looking for series, Goodkind is another who deserves praise in that sphere for his first four books at least after that it becomes messy.

WoT suffered from Jordan making a mistake (imo) in dealing with the passage of time with some of his characters in later books. Early on in the series a lot of the story threads for the main characters were interwoven allowing Jordan to keep them all moving along at he same pace. Unfortunately with the later books the central characters splintered and while for the most part they progressed the story often they weren't and Jordan filled it up with mindless going ons.

The most obviously example was the thread focusing around the girls joining the rebels at Salidar. While Jordan had advanced Rand/Perrin/Mat's story's when he got to the girls he seemed to feel he needed to explain what they had been up to in the ensuing period and rather than offer a summarised account, playing out the more important factors of that story line he decided to cover everything for the reader. Often meaning that the particular story dragged, taking nearly four books before the bunch actually did anything.

Yeah would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Malazan series.

Totally agree.

Jordan seemed to get a bit lost in his own world. Creating and building without progressing. I also found all the cultural idiosyncracies of the various nations a bit too much. They began to feel more like caricatures than characters. Some characters became quite wooden. Elaida for example appeared initially to be a solid character with depth, balance and nuance, but later developed into a severe, scolding, angry, almost petulant wretch. Suian, likewise, was a fascinating character, when she was the Amyrlin Seat, but turned into a little fawning, girl after being stilled. Morgase was all grandeur and power as Queen but reduced to a common maid after fleeing. Such transformations did not feel realistic. Also Mat, the jovial, jack-the-lad, but incredibly powerful Ta'veren seemed more like a caricature (he annoyed me no end).

Whilst the earlier books had interwining and resolving sub plots towards the end of each book that gave some kind of resolution, the later books seemed to spiral out of control with no end in sight.

However, the magic system is pretty awesome. The use of the five powers and the varying srengths of the characters kept me gripped. I loved the mano-mano battles that were described in detail like Moghedien's confrontation with Nynaeve or Lanfear's rampage before she ended up in the world of the Aelfinn.

The later battles unfortunately left out all of this detail, as if Jordan had exhausted his descriptive powers. The use of the power became reduced channelling and then the effect of that channelling, leaving out all the intricacies, strains, and complexities of the process.

Anyway, I still love the series and eagerly await the final installment.

I've just started The Malazan



emancipator

Season Two of the HBO TV series starts again tonight on Sky Atlantic. Nice.

For those who enjoy fast read of science fantasy, try Fritz Leiber and Michael Shea.

It's a brilliant series. The books are amazing and the TV show is so impressively made, I am always stunned by how close to the characters in my head the cast are.

If you do like George then try Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind. Then come back and thank me

yappysnap wrote:It's a brilliant series. The books are amazing and the TV show is so impressively made, I am always stunned by how close to the characters in my head the cast are.

If you do like George then try Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind. Then come back and thank me

Yappysnap that book by Rothfus was referenced in another thread on here (favorite books or something like that). I just finished the second book which is better. I agree, great reading.

The Second book is so good isn't it? I can't wait for the third to come out as I have so may questions that need answered!

teassoc wrote:

yappysnap wrote:It's a brilliant series. The books are amazing and the TV show is so impressively made, I am always stunned by how close to the characters in my head the cast are.

If you do like George then try Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind. Then come back and thank me

Yappysnap that book by Rothfus was referenced in another thread on here (favorite books or something like that). I just finished the second book which is better. I agree, great reading.

been abit bored having finished all of the game of thrones and then hunger games trilogy, so went out and bought the name of the wind having seen this as i didnt know what to go on next. just arrived today will let you know what i think of it

Yeah do mate had an eye on that one.

Good to hear! It is well worth the money, Rothfuss is probably the best fantasy author of the last 5 or so years.

yappysnap wrote:Good to hear! It is well worth the money, Rothfuss is probably the best fantasy author of the last 5 or so years.

A bit slow to start though but stick with it and you'll love it.

teassoc wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Good to hear! It is well worth the money, Rothfuss is probably the best fantasy author of the last 5 or so years.

A bit slow to start though but stick with it and you'll love it.

im about three quarters into the first one at the moment and am hooked now. like others have said its taken a while to get going, but having read lotr its nothing thats really off putting. with the slow ones you will usually find that thier adding a hell of alot more depth to characters and for me its definately the case with the main character.

going to order the second tonight as i dont think it will take me long to finish it now im really into it. i take it the seconds wise mans fear? and i have heard the third should be out soon as well, anybody know when its out?

compelling and rich wrote:

teassoc wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Good to hear! It is well worth the money, Rothfuss is probably the best fantasy author of the last 5 or so years.

A bit slow to start though but stick with it and you'll love it.

im about three quarters into the first one at the moment and am hooked now. like others have said its taken a while to get going, but having read lotr its nothing thats really off putting. with the slow ones you will usually find that thier adding a hell of alot more depth to characters and for me its definately the case with the main character.

going to order the second tonight as i dont think it will take me long to finish it now im really into it. i take it the seconds wise mans fear? and i have heard the third should be out soon as well, anybody know when its out?

I think I read somewhere that it will next year, firstly in hardback. I also believe it will be for day 3.

Yep the second's Wise Man's Fear. Is the third out next year? It'll be day three but I haven't seen any kind of dates around for when it's coming out...

Compelling and Rich do you recommend the Hunger Games? I enjoyed the film, and while I still have around 15 books still on my 'To Read' list I'm always on the look out for some interesting books - I may try the Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind following the comments on here.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Compelling and Rich do you recommend the Hunger Games? I enjoyed the film, and while I still have around 15 books still on my 'To Read' list I'm always on the look out for some interesting books - I may try the Patrick Rothfuss's The Name of the Wind following the comments on here.

Yeah I really enjoyed the hunger games, very easy read and gets you hooked. Perhaps lacks the depth of other books but if your after the above well worth a read. If you enjoyed the film then definately, still havnt seen the film

Cheers rich, having just finishd a noam chomsky book and starting dorian gray ill need sumthing easy next!