France v Ireland, A realistic view

First topic message reminder :

With France v Ireland only a few days away, what can we honestly expect to get from the game?? My heart says we go to France and do a number on them, however my head says this wont be.

Deccie most likely will give us another experimental team, (most likely with the view of winning our two home games and entering the WC on a winning streak), and why not?? He is using these games very well and making the right noises.

The French however have already picked their 30 man squad for the WC and will look to target a big win with their big names on home soil, but with the game being played in Bordeaux it might suit the Irish to be away from Paris.

I fear the best result we can hope for is if our second string can hold what will be a dominate French side to within 10-15 points it will be seen as a decent result for Ireland

Here is the French line up-

FRANCE : Traille – Clerc, Marty, Mermoz, Palisson – (o) Trinh-Duc, (m) Yachvili – Lakafia, Harinordoquy, Dusautoir (cap) – Millo-Chluski, Pierre – Ducalcon, Szarzewski, Marconnet

Remplaçants : Guirado, Poux, Nallet, Bonnaire, Parra, Skrela, Médard

MBT

Ah I wasn't sure stag, I thought it was before the England game, I would have went if it was

No it is the Thursday before the French game isn't it?

Or the Thursday is it? Its sandwiched between two French games anyway.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think it would be much more detrimental to confidence to lose at home than away and also having a run into the RWC of two wins in a row would feel better than win-lose-win.

I agree. It is more important to win the home games.

I don't understand the logic of playing Ferris at 7 and O'Brien at 6. O'Brien is much more suited to the 7 position than Ferris and Ferris is marginally more suited to 6 than O'Brien.

Ferris is bigger, better in the lineout, a better tackler, better in the rucks and mauls. All attributes you need in a 6.

O'Brien has better hands, better awareness of space and support runners and is a more explosive ball carrier. All attributes you want in a 7.

hughie1986 wrote:
The French however have already picked their 30 man squad for the WC and will look to target a big win with their big names on home soil, but with the game being played in Bordeaux it might suit the Irish to be away from Paris.

I fear the best result we can hope for is if our second string can hold what will be a dominate French side to within 10-15 points it will be seen as a decent result for Ireland

RWC squad will only be narrowed down on the 22nd of august methinks...with possibly some new additions to the current group if some players dont recover from injuries.

Ireland should win this game, french players are just back from the gym so will be rusty, lacking proper game time and mainly see that game at as a good training - so dont think a loss will affect the morale which is quite good at the moment. imprtant is to be ready in NZ.

With Ferris and O'Brien on the flanks, could we just not play left and right?

I think that could work MBT, no reason why it wouldn't, at the same time no reason to do it either

2 more points on this game, beating a team away then losing at home the next week would be a bit of a kick in the balls

if I had to choose a game to win it would be the last two

How negative are we all that if we win we are likely to lose next week? Why would that be the case?

MBTGOG wrote:With Ferris and O'Brien on the flanks, could we just not play left and right?

Don't see any reason why they couldn't be interchangable, likewise Wallace, as long as everyone understood their roles in attack and defence.

I would see Ferris playing predominantly at 6 though because he does the orthedox blindside work better than the others.

Winning increases your chance of winning again, losing will increase our chance of losing next week.

MBT not saying that is a likely scenario, just saying which game I'd prefer to win, that's all, sorry if it came across differently.

I'd like to win this game but I'd prefer to use it as preperation for the RWC by experimenting (much less than in the Scot game)

Notch wrote:Winning increases your chance of winning again, losing will increase our chance of losing next week.

Not if, like Stag said, we send our strongest team out this week to get the win and experiment next week.

Another possibility is that we send our strongest side out and still lose and then we will be in a dilemma next week. I think there are a few people losing sight of the big picture here.

It's much more important to win our final 2 games but it's not vital that we win any as long as we get the right combinations in place for the WC and hit the ground running against the USA.

Why not send out relatively strong sides for the next three games? I think with the size of the squad, it is achievable. I wouldn't like another game where we have a team along the same lines as the Scotland game.

I'd say we should rotate over the next three games, but we should be looking at putting out very strong sides from this point in and I think we will. There's no real point in experimenting to the scale we did versus Scotland again. We can pick a strong team this week and make five changes for next week without it being much weaker.

I would hope to see a progressively stronger side emerging in each game as players become available from injury and the weaker candidates fall away.

For example I see no reason to look at the likes of Ronin and McCarthy again.

Obviously we can't send out our full strength side in every game as we need to make sure we get everyone who may play, a sufficient amount of game time, particularly the guys who have been out a while with injury.

I think we are on the same page really, no one wants to see another selection like the Scotish one again unless in the Connacht game.

That being said we can't field our strongest team for the next 3 matches,
Keanrey and Sexton have already started one and Kidney has stated he wants people to get 2.5-3 games

I reckon Kidney should be playing two different teams from the three remaining games. Our first team v Fr away and Eng home and the team that will start v USA v France at home. We should have also started this team v Scotland in my opinion. Not sure what the point of the Connacht game is.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think we are on the same page really, no one wants to see another selection like the Scotish one again unless in the Connacht game.

That being said we can't field our strongest team for the next 3 matches,
Keanrey and Sexton have already started one and Kidney has stated he wants people to get 2.5-3 games

Just because we can't play our first choice team in each game does not mean we can't put out strong sides in every game.

Thomond wrote:SOB while a good player doesn't do a lot of rucking for me,he should be doing his job first ball carrying comes after that.

I very much agree, thats why I think he should play 7. The way Ireland have played most successfully we've had our 6 doing all the close-in work at the ruck (primarily) and our 7 and 8 as ball carriers (primarily). Obviously the backrow needs to be versatile enough to be pretty much interchangeable these days but I would like to see Ferris or Leamy in the 6 shirt with O'Brien or Wallace at 7. Just in terms of balance.

I agree O'Brien has forged a mighty reputation based on the close-in work of Jennings and his tight five in the breakdown area.

No one said anything about not playing a strong team. I still think u can have a strong team with Ryan in it or Leamy, or fitzgerald or Jones.

I agree with Notch re SOB.

Are people forgetting as well that Kidney's hands were pretty much tied with regard to players available for the Scotland game?

We were missing BOD, D'Arcy and Ferris due to injury. Then added to that we had guys like Jennings and ROG who were behind in preseason due to injuries sustained previously (and since recovered from), along with Heaslip, Earls, DOC, Ross, Healy, Best, O'Brien, Wallace and Reddan who had had long seasons that ended a few weeks later than most (due to further involvement in the HC and/or ML).

I haven't included POC in that list as he didn't really need a rest. But we were able to field a Heineken Cup winning captain in his stead.

To leave out all the players I've mentioned above and still only lose by a score to an almost full strength Scotland team, in Murrayfield, to a try in the last few minutes when we had been leading most of the game is remarkable.

I'm stunned by some of the negativity on here, I really am. It's very disappointing.

MMC wrote:Are people forgetting as well that Kidney's hands were pretty much tied with regard to players available for the Scotland game?

We were missing BOD, D'Arcy and Ferris due to injury. Then added to that we had guys like Jennings and ROG who were behind in preseason due to injuries sustained previously (and since recovered from), along with Heaslip, Earls, DOC, Ross, Healy, Best, O'Brien, Wallace and Reddan who had had long seasons that ended a few weeks later than most (due to further involvement in the HC and/or ML).

I haven't included POC in that list as he didn't really need a rest. But we were able to field a Heineken Cup winning captain in his stead.

To leave out all the players I've mentioned above and still only lose by a score to an almost full strength Scotland team, in Murrayfield, to a try in the last few minutes when we had been leading most of the game is remarkable.

I'm stunned by some of the negativity on here, I really am. It's very disappointing.

The worst thing is I'm not.

Playing Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien.

It does, they are a very balanced combination. But O'Brien needs to be able to perform to the highest level in a different backrow set-up to really be as good for Ireland as he is for Leinster.

I think he can and will. He's a very talented player who should continue to develop his game. I hope he doesn't go the way of Rob Kearney who made a breakthrough as being sensational- world class even- in one aspect of his position only to not kick on in terms of bringing everything else he does up to the same standard.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Playing Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien.

+ 1,000,000

Feckless Rogue wrote:Playing Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien.

True. But maybe he should be able to play his best regardless of who else is in the back row. Especially backrows that include superior players to Jennings.

MBTGOG wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Playing Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien.

True. But maybe he should be able to play his best regardless of who else is in the back row. Especially backrows that include superior players to Jennings.

This. I want to see O'Brien push and become a world class player. The very best players in the world can play to their best with anyone.

Fair point. But the back row needs to be balanced. The trio need to compliment each other. No individual can do everything.

Boyne wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Playing Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien.

+ 1,000,000

- 999,998.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Fair point. But the back row needs to be balanced. The trio need to compliment each other. No individual can do everything.

No one is saying they do have to do everything. I actually do think our back row is well balanced no matter who your play out of the 4 major options. It might not have the traditional balance but it is our own style and I think we should be trying to develop that rather than copying others.

MMC wrote:Are people forgetting as well that Kidney's hands were pretty much tied with regard to players available for the Scotland game?

We were missing BOD, D'Arcy and Ferris due to injury. Then added to that we had guys like Jennings and ROG who were behind in preseason due to injuries sustained previously (and since recovered from), along with Heaslip, Earls, DOC, Ross, Healy, Best, O'Brien, Wallace and Reddan who had had long seasons that ended a few weeks later than most (due to further involvement in the HC and/or ML).

I haven't included POC in that list as he didn't really need a rest. But we were able to field a Heineken Cup winning captain in his stead.

To leave out all the players I've mentioned above and still only lose by a score to an almost full strength Scotland team, in Murrayfield, to a try in the last few minutes when we had been leading most of the game is remarkable.

I'm stunned by some of the negativity on here, I really am. It's very disappointing.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MMC wrote:Are people forgetting as well that Kidney's hands were pretty much tied with regard to players available for the Scotland game?

We were missing BOD, D'Arcy and Ferris due to injury. Then added to that we had guys like Jennings and ROG who were behind in preseason due to injuries sustained previously (and since recovered from), along with Heaslip, Earls, DOC, Ross, Healy, Best, O'Brien, Wallace and Reddan who had had long seasons that ended a few weeks later than most (due to further involvement in the HC and/or ML).

I haven't included POC in that list as he didn't really need a rest. But we were able to field a Heineken Cup winning captain in his stead.

To leave out all the players I've mentioned above and still only lose by a score to an almost full strength Scotland team, in Murrayfield, to a try in the last few minutes when we had been leading most of the game is remarkable.

I'm stunned by some of the negativity on here, I really am. It's very disappointing.

Why let facts get in the way of a good argument?

French team is meant to be announced this afternoon. Anyone know exactly when?

leinsterbaby wrote:French team is meant to be announced this afternoon. Anyone know exactly when?

15:00 local time so 14:00 here I suppose.

I don’t think Jennings brings out the best in O’Brien as such, but Seanie certainly looks more comfortable when someone else plays the Jennings role (imagine how good he would have been alongside Gleeson in his pomp!). He’s a young player, only a hand full of caps, and each game at international level is a learning experience. He will come good and find the balance though, he’s the best player in Europe, he’s got to!

p.s. as for the negativity, I’m predicting that we win all of our remaining games. Put that in your half empty glass and… drink it?

You've always been a good egg Mickado.

As for us winning all of our remaining games? Don't be silly.

FRANCE : Traille – Clerc, Marty, Mermoz, Palisson – (o) Trinh-Duc, (m) Yachvili – Lakafia, Harinordoquy, Dusautoir (cap) – Millo-Chluski, Pierre – Ducalcon, Szarzewski, Marconnet 

Remplaçants : Guirado, Poux, Nallet, Bonnaire, Parra, Skrela, Médard 

Excuse my French but it's not too far off their starting 15 whatever that is. Nallet, Bonnaire, Medard and Parra on the bench.

As strong as you would expect. We will have to meet their strength with strength.

Still think the results of the remaining pre-RWC games are incidental, and the achievement of their goal is far more important. In fact, it could be argued that if Ireland lost all five then there would no expectation and therefore zero pressure on the team in the ones that matter.

The team is bound to be rotated each week because there are still players to come back, and still players who need more pre-season time. It is fine saying this is France's first game and they will be rusty, but it will be the same for most of the Ireland team. These are still friendlies (for both sides) where players are trying to reaquaint themselves with the 'line' but not necessarily put their body on it.

A test is a test, surely you want to win every single match. I know i do!

Yikes they did not pull any punches with that one really did they?

Am I right in thinking Palisson is the French's cooler version of Shane Williams?

Harinordoquy at 7 will be interesting he hasn't played there for France in a while.

Traille at 15 is the only weakness (Trinh-Duc aside) I see while Ducalcon isn't there best option but can't be percieved as a weakness.

The Great Aukster wrote:Still think the results of the remaining pre-RWC games are incidental, and the achievement of their goal is far more important. In fact, it could be argued that if Ireland lost all five then there would no expectation and therefore zero pressure on the team in the ones that matter.

The team is bound to be rotated each week because there are still players to come back, and still players who need more pre-season time. It is fine saying this is France's first game and they will be rusty, but it will be the same for most of the Ireland team. These are still friendlies (for both sides) where players are trying to reaquaint themselves with the 'line' but not necessarily put their body on it.

Do you really think losing 5 matches in a month wouldn't have some sort of negative psychological effect?

I agree with Ausker,

Them putting out their first choice XV or close to it doesn't eman we have to

I AM NOT SUGGESTING A REPEAT OF THE SCOTTISH MATCH

but at the same time I think we need to try positions out,

13 obviously since BOD isn't available
Ryan needs gametime
Another 15 needs gametime
Sexton-Wallace needs gametime
SOB needs gametime at 7

IMO bien sur

I'm quite happy we can beat that French team.

weaker than expected ... some 2nd strings forwards and a new centre partnership that needed to be tested.
surprised he's playing harinordoquy and clerc who were slightly injured. also a bit surprised not to see Nallet and Mas but again they probably dont need to prove anything.

Carpe Diem wrote:A test is a test, surely you want to win every single match. I know i do!

Yeah, exactly. That doesn;t mean we can't out out a team like this;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Denis Leamy
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Eoin Reddan
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Paddy Wallace
13. Keith Earls
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

16. Jerry Flannery 17. John Hayes 18. Leo Cullen 19. David Wallace 20. Conor Murray 21. Ronan O'Gara 22. Luke Fitzgerald

And learn a lot from the experimentation there.

Notch wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:A test is a test, surely you want to win every single match. I know i do!

Yeah, exactly. That doesn;t mean we can't out out a team like this;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Denis Leamy
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Eoin Reddan
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Paddy Wallace
13. Keith Earls
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

16. Jerry Flannery 17. John Hayes 18. Leo Cullen 19. David Wallace 20. Conor Murray 21. Ronan O'Gara 22. Fergus McFadden

And learn a lot from the experimentation there.

No problem with that Notch, it's just some people don't seem to think a win matters.

That still looks like a blydi good side to me!

red_stag wrote:I'm quite happy we can beat that French team.

Encore un petit wager, monsieur cerf rouge?

I think Kidney should start whatever he thinks his perfect 15 v Australia would be provided they are fit, win the game then make some changes for the home game playing whatever 15 he reckons will start v USA. Then back to the first 15 for England.

Carpe Diem wrote:

Notch wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:A test is a test, surely you want to win every single match. I know i do!

Yeah, exactly. That doesn;t mean we can't out out a team like this;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Denis Leamy
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Eoin Reddan
10. Jonathon Sexton
11. Andrew Trimble
12. Paddy Wallace
13. Keith Earls
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Rob Kearney

16. Jerry Flannery 17. John Hayes 18. Leo Cullen 19. David Wallace 20. Conor Murray 21. Ronan O'Gara 22. Fergus McFadden

And learn a lot from the experimentation there.

No problem with that Notch, it's just some people don't seem to think a win matters.

That still looks like a blydi good side to me!

Me too! I hope he picks something like that. Especially the tight five. This is a massive test for the the tight five and our first choice players would really benefit from gametime together.