Wales v England : game debate

Both teams have announced their squads.

Let the game debate begin:

Well Wales better win, becuase on the good authority of the bloggers here, they suggested a welsh win, and that was my Superbru prediction, Ireland let me down last weeknend, if another celtic team lets me down, I won't supprt any of them this RWC.

I see it as extremely important to win all three warm-ups to carry the confidence though to the RWC.

To be honest to lose this one is the least important. But looking at the Welsh side, I'd expect to win.

Dublin is the important one for me though.

Biltong
Hope you don't have too much money riding on a Welsh win - their pack (front 5 particularly) looks well under strength. Also, Gav the Chav at 12 and Hook at 15? OK, I know that injuries are part of the reason for this selection, but seems a waste of Wales most creative midfield back to have him play in his least effective position while bringing back someone who has hardly played a serious rugby match for 2 years.

By comparison, England have named a strong side - about 10 first choice players and 3 who are frequently in the XXII.

I think England's pack should be enough to win it for us. We seemed to have too much for them last week and this week we're stronger. Doesn't mean I'm not a bit nervous though! I'll be quite worried if we lose this one...

Biltong, maybe you should have waiting until the team announcements! Wales' team last week wasn't first choice, but this week it's even further away from first choice! England on the other hand last week had a second string, and beat us, and this week look much more like the first team. Net result = England have to be faviourites for this, as much as I hate to say it.

I am deeply worried as a Welsh fan (even more so as I have tickets!) why is Hook 15? he is terrible there. Who knows how the oragne one will play. But England have a very strong side and the Welsh will need to step up, and somehow we will have to compete with them in the scrum.

dummy_half wrote:Biltong
Hope you don't have too much money riding on a Welsh win - their pack (front 5 particularly) looks well under strength. Also, Gav the Chav at 12 and Hook at 15? OK, I know that injuries are part of the reason for this selection, but seems a waste of Wales most creative midfield back to have him play in his least effective position while bringing back someone who has hardly played a serious rugby match for 2 years.

By comparison, England have named a strong side - about 10 first choice players and 3 who are frequently in the XXII.

Fortunately it isn't for money, just for bragging rights, I was in the nmuber 1 position before the Irish lost, I thought I would ask those in the know this morning and they all said a Wales win, then when I saw the teams, I realised I might have been duped.


Get the feeling I am being lied too.

Biltong, maybe you should have waiting until the team announcements! Wales' team last week wasn't first choice, but this week it's even further away from first choice! England on the other hand last week had a second string, and beat us, and this week look much more like the first team. Net result = England have to be faviourites for this, as much as I hate to say it.

I will be very disapointed if England lose this game. This gives us a good chance to win all 3 games going into the RWC and build some good momentum.

It will be interesting to see how the English back row do against Warburton and co. But that is the only area where Wales have the upper hand.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:I will be very disapointed if England lose this game. This gives us a good chance to win all 3 games going into the RWC and build some good momentum.

It will be interesting to see how the English back row do against Warburton and co. But that is the only area where Wales have the upper hand.

How can you say thay when we've got the tanned messiah in the centre of the field!!!

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote: It will be interesting to see how the English back row do against Warburton and co. But that is the only area where Wales have the upper hand.

I wouldn't even bet on that. Our back row is much praised but check out how many turnovers we concede. Ok there's more to it than just the back row but they are pretty crucial when it comes to possession and continuity!

England last week only had what is apparently 5 of MJs 1st XV... Hartley, Palmer, Croft, Moody, Cueto in his side and they won. Now they have 9 inc. 6/7 of a 1st choice backline.

The pack looks very big....especially the front five and they should dominate upfront.
Excluding home advantage England should win this one. Not always works out that way but I can't see past an England win myself.

Its certainly a make or break match for Henson... if he's quiet then their wouldn't be much case for taking him.
He's known to frequently cause morale problems in the squad and he certainly won't be happy being 4th string centre.... if he isn't in blazing form & pushing davies all the way for the jersey I'd leave him at home... its not worth the risk to the squad.

I worry about how much Hensons defence has improved as stopping Tindall and Hape (and any of the forwards) will be a big ask for him.

I also hope our back row and Phillips are going to be able to protect Priestland as well.

I agree though, last chance saloon for Henson and if he doesn't perform he should be forgotten

Don't worry - the Welsh are much fitter, they outscored the English by 3 tries to two, and those English tries were 'soft' ones.

Game in the bag lads, game in the bag!

you've been reading the Western Mail again haven't you TrailApe?

LOL

I'm expecting England to hose in on this one.

Something like 43-13 I suspect.

Smirnoffpriest,

nay lad, Newcastle Evening Chronicle.

But then again, their knowledge of rugby is very minimal to say the least, so they might have nicked it from somewhere else.

I wouldn't put it past certain journos to plagiarise opinions from anywhere - even here - and you know how tenuous the average 606v2'ers hold on reality is.

Unfortunately and for once I (grudingly) agree with you Grey Ghost, I fear a drubbing.

On the positive side this should set us up nicely for a 2012 Grand Slam in the 6 nations... LOL.

Trail Ape, I was only joking as what you were saying seems like what the Western Fail says all the time - Wales play the best brand of silky rugby and we did the best in last weeks game as we scored 3 tries to 2... blah blah blah

I have a feeling that Priestland and Hook will interchange quite a lot, and keep England on their toes.

Surely Gatland wouldnt play Henson if he wasnt performing in training! I feel sorry for Roberts though - who is pushed to 13 as a result of Henson coming in.

England have picked a stronger (on paper) side than last week. I will be dissapointed if they dont come back from Cardiff with a result - although, Gatland is putting a lot of emphasis on this game 'as a must win'. Wales still dont have the players back from injury (or are protecting them) - in any event I will be looking forward to another game - hopefully a bit more fluid than last week. Although, England will be rusty all over again.

Interesting point about England being very rusty again and Wales should be more settled - but that is the only positive I can see and I think it's been cancelled out by the fact players have been moved around, played out of position (Hook) and the weakness of our bench making tactical subsuitutions almost impossible.

Without a platform to work from Wales might be just living off scraps which will ensure a defeat - A very strange selection and disappointment all round for me - Poor team and poor bench. I think Gats has rolled the dice here and most of the welsh fans have gone from optimism to pessimism. He's a strange coach that Gatland. It might work abd you could say he now has little to lose with such a weak team. Bennett has a good match for a change and he's dropped!!! Work that one out! All our front row are injured - Bradley should be alongside Charteris. Delve? - Tavis should start with Hook alongside and the likes of Henson et al should be coming on after 50 mins not starting IMO. High risk and I fear an embarassment.

Rusty schmusty. I bought that whole rust line when the ABs made 7 changes to take on the settled and confident ockers.

As it turned out, the returning first brigade clicked into place like a well oiled thing with two parts that makes a clicking noise when both parts are put together and the rest is history. In fact NZ's re-arranged line up did better when they WERE still rusty. As they settled in the second half they became clumsy and lost interest.

The Wales v England game last week lacked intensity. JW for all his long lost world cup heroics has about as much urgency to get stuck in as a lone community constable on a night out in Clapham. Once he enjoyed an arm chair ride from a dominant pack of forwards, but now-a-days he likes to recline in the same position. And for some reason England's pack dominated in the first spell as Wales struggled to stay in the game.

When England should have been using the countersinking tool on the nicely hammered down coffin lid, Wilkinson was instead applying cute dabs over the defensive line, little grubbers into touch and practicing the odd drop goal.

Eventually a shocked Wales realised they were still mathematically in the game and after England emptied their bench (effectively swapping the B side for the C side), Shane Williams popped out of the long grass and conjured up the prospect of a highly unlikely come back.

In the end though, the Welsh backline fumbled their way to another valiant loss.

I just can't see that Wales have as much new firepower as England will have. And presumably with a bit more urgency I have a feeling England will conjure up a large margin. Cue hysterical English tabloid headlines, which I suspect will be along the tired lines of: "England sound world cup warning", which will be run side-by-side with stories titled "McCaw warns of England threat", "Campese backs England for cup" and "Johnson warns England can improve".

TheGreyGhost

"Campese backs England for cup"

I fear hell will freeze over if this headline actually comes true.

Yeah, but when you read the article underneath it will as usual say no such thing.

"If all the other teams die in airline disasters on the way to the cup, and NZ's first, second and youth teams are all swallowed up in a volcanic fault, then England might win the cup", said Campese.

Never underestimate your opponent Your opponent may have something up their sleeve that you didn't see coming, no matter how weak they appear.

Never underestimate your opponent Your opponent may have something up
their sleeve that you didn't see coming, no matter how weak they appear.

Is that you Mr Miyagi?

Again reading this topic, I'm amazed at the pessimism of Welsh fans.
Phillips will keep the English back row close to the fringes, Priestland is an attacking outside half, who loves getting his line moving. Henson puts players into space and picks out players running good lines. Hook runs great lines and has fantastic vision, Roberts add power and direction, and we have Shane and north to come in and cause havoc when they feel like it.
As for our pack, we have Mitchell and James at props, and despite last week which was the first time they have ever come off second best, have both performed brilliantly over the last 2 seasons. Burns and Charteris for the Dragons have been by far the most reliable line out combination of the Welsh regions this seasons, which will now be used for Wales. We have a mobile and aggressive back row as well.

The last time 10 of this England side together was when they were smashed by Ireland, how high will their confidence be?

AlynDavies wrote:Again reading this topic, I'm amazed at the pessimism of Welsh fans.
Phillips will keep the English back row close to the fringes, Priestland is an attacking outside half, who loves getting his line moving. Henson puts players into space and picks out players running good lines. Hook runs great lines and has fantastic vision, Roberts add power and direction, and we have Shane and north to come in and cause havoc when they feel like it.
As for our pack, we have Mitchell and James at props, and despite last week which was the first time they have ever come off second best, have both performed brilliantly over the last 2 seasons. Burns and Charteris for the Dragons have been by far the most reliable line out combination of the Welsh regions this seasons, which will now be used for Wales. We have a mobile and aggressive back row as well.

The last time 10 of this England side together was when they were smashed by Ireland, how high will their confidence be?

England were well-beaten (not smashed, I believe) by Ireland. But there again, do you learn more from victories than defeats.

The real test will be next time in Dublin.

Last week we got a win with a 1 2/3th team*. Now we can see if we can get a win with a 1 1/3th at the MS. I suspect we will - convincingly.

i.e. nearly second string.

James and Mitchell need to get their act togethr this week thats for sure and despite being in-experienced Toby needs to do what all us fans down at Dave know he can do.

No number 8 cover on bench bit worrying

Bedford. There's a lot of pressure on faletau to perform. To think he could start for Wales a month today v SA. He's come a long way. He's certainly been thrown in at the deep end, with only earning his first cap earlier this summer. International rugby must be a strep learning curve for a 20 year old. Especially playing at twickenham. He doesn't seem the type to feel the pressure too much. So let's hope he goes well.
Realistically. Toby should be being groomed for the 2015 WC, and I still expect sideways to get picked ahead of him.

England played badly last week and Wales played even worse, I think we will be up for it this week and we will play better at home against a side who has selected a 1st XV with the majority being match rusty.

Plenty to be optimistic about, last week was the best Welsh performance for a good while.

We worked 3 tries by carrying well, offloading, stretching the English defence and forcing overlaps instead of relying on magic from Shane/Hook.

Its a good sign, especially as England, with all their possession didn't create much of anything. We obviously need to be more clinical in order to clinch close test matches. A win is essential on Saturday.

mog,

I agree but with no natural No8 cover on the bench even more expected of him.

Which as said before makes a mockery of Delve sat on the bench for the Reds.

The Welsh side is riddled with untried or inexperienced combinations - the front row has never started together beforee, the 2nd row only a few times, back row only last week, ditto at 9-10. The 10-12-13 combo is new and the back three have played together only once or twice before.

'Nuff said.

rump,

Come on get your facts right its the thris run out for that back row combo

I always said these first two games were for tinkering with the 1st team getting a run out against the Pumas.

That said we still haven't seen a lot of the 'supposed' 1st team players yet in A Jones, S Jones, Jenkins, Byrne and Halfpenny.

I was pretty confident that we would go to NZ on the back of two home wins, whilst this is an experiemntal side England (in the backs at least) are pretty much 1st choice so not so confident now.

I will repaeat myself time and time again but why on earth has Delve been released to sit on the bench for the Reds.

How and more importantly will Gatland please explain that decision

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]rump,

Come on get your facts right its the thris run out for that back row combo

I always said these first two games were for tinkering with the 1st team getting a run out against the Pumas.

/quote]

I stand corrected Bedford. The back row is in fact far too experienced a combination - their 3rd game together forsooth! They'll be celebrating their diamond wedding next.

On the other point, "tinkering" suggests giving game time to 2nd choice players and returnees from injury or rehearsing combinations that might be needed later in the WC due to injury etc. This goes well beyond that. I mean, can anyone name Gats' first choice combos at front row, second row, back row, 9/10, centre or back three? To play your first choice combinations for the first time only 1 game (or less!) away from the WC seems foolhardy to me.

Rumpel.
Well summed up. You can see what so many can't I completely agree with you. These games are meant to just put the final pieces together not to reconstruct our first choice tram. You're right. We don't know our best combinations. The back row looks great, but like you said. This i's their 3rd outing together. The first was in June 2011. Another other team going into the WC with such little time for combinations to develop.

The front row? Because of injuries we're not sure who'll play.
2nd row. 2 from 3.
Back row. As I've said.
Half backs. Phillips and??
Centres????
Wings. Shane and north or halfpenny.
15. ???

We will have played SA a month ago today and we are so far behind the other nations.

MOG:

Agree with most of your points except the back row, I was not impressed with the lack of control at the back of the scrum, wild passes, poor cover at the back of the scoring scrum and Toby almost running into touch i.e., running sideways (not easy at international level). All the go forward was from Bradley Davies and J Roberts last week, I thought Bradley had a good game but I think R Jones is quicker around the park and better in the line out. I think with the players in the squad I would have gone with Chart and Brad this Sat.

I agree the team is a bit of a mess I can't believe the team on Sat is the best we can field, I said before, I Thomes and I Evans should be in the 30 for the RWC (possibly Barry Davies at 15) and cut the army of back row players in the squad (Powell, J Thomas, Delve, McCusker and M Williams).

During the world cup the first XV are the players that are selected for a particular match it's all about rotation, some people are still too preoccupied with the we must beat England attitude.
If we were playing any other side tomorrow most people would be happy if we continued experimenting with fringe players or testing players playing out of position as cover if and when we suffer injuries during the world cup.
All this talk that we should have experimented weeks or even months back is nonsense we want to know now how they are playing not how they played last season.

Cymroglan.
I couldn't disagree more. These games are about ironing out the creases and putting the final pieces togerher. Not looking at fringe players. That should have been done.
Why would Wales fans be happy to look at fringe players? If we lose tomorrow, that will be 3 wins in our last 16 games. We're a tram
Low in confidence and players look petrified to make mistakes.

Scrum v's festive special. What did eddie butler say. Warren. Please, please don't tinker in the summer and the panel were in total agreement, because butler was correct.
Gatlands preparation has been dire and now it's biting him on the bum!

Normally in the usual process of things, there would have been posts about man for man analysis, a comparison of structural units like the back row (as above) and a general display of local optimism.

But since the team announcements and the start of this thread there have been 39 posts.

As the Celts are normally the most vociferous in their views, I can only assume that a white flag is being waved.

Alun. One thing I'll say in faketau's favour. It was only his 2nd cap. The no
8 position is a pivotal role. He's been thrown in at the deep end, but I hope he can show what he's capable of tomorrow.

Portnoy.
Can't see a welsh win.
At the minute we're doing a great job of beating ourselves.

manofgwent Ironing out the creases is exactly what we are doing he soon has to select a thirty man squad and I'm sure that the majority of those that are most likely not to travel are playing tomorrow but are being given one last opportunity to earn a ticket and no doubt they will have been told this.
Gatland and his staff know exactly who the first XV are but you will rarely find them playing together due to players being rested or out due to injury.
I'm glad that we are not over committing our best players we cant afford to lose them this close to the WC if other sides want to take that risk that's their choice.

My point i's. Faletau 3rd cap. Priestland. 2nd start. Burns. 1st start. These players should have been given more game time before now.
What creases have been ironed out??? Centre pairing. No. Full back. No. Fly half. No. Gatland's spent way too long sticking with the same faces and now with all the injuries is finally picking players he should have already blooded.
My main example i's mike Phillips. If Phillips gets injured where do we turn. Knoyle or Williams. Neither have ever started for Wales. Wed be in the Poopie.

manofgwent wrote:Portnoy.
Can't see a welsh win.
At the minute we're doing a great job of beating ourselves.

I've been there mate.

It's a no win situation when there are complaints that players are not bloodied but when they are blooded there are still complaints.
Don't you think it's a bit soon to have a enquiry of what went wrong when we have not even started the world cup yet.

What you say about it's important to win at least 2 games to go into the tournament with confidence and momentum is correct. If we lose to England tomorrow then they'll be pressure on us to beat Argentina. And we all know how Wales perform under pressure. If our front 5 get bullied again tomorrow. Argentina will be rubbing their hands!

Cymroglan. I don't think we need the WC to know where we are. 3 wins in 15 games. Make that 16 after tomorrow.
Gatland makes Gareth Jenkins look like carwyn James!

I wouldn't have criticised if faletau, priestland, knoyle, turnbull, burns, bevington were called up in the autumn.
Just 9 months ago we were still looking at bishop, biggar, gough and deiniol jones.