AB squad to tour SA... Core players rested...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/5435623/Nine-rested-in-All-Blacks-squad-for-South-African-leg

The squad is:

Forwards: John Afoa, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Jarrad Hoeata *, Andrew Hore, Jerome Kaino, Keven Mealamu, Liam Messam, Adam Thomson, Samuel Whitelock, Ali Williams, Tony Woodcock and Victor Vito.

Backs: Jimmy Cowan, Israel Dagg, Andy Ellis, Hosea Gear, Zac Guildford, Richard Kahui, Cory Jane, Ma'a Nonu, Colin Slade, Isaia Toeava, Piri Weepu and Sonny Bill Williams.

Against a full strength SA side this will be tough indeed!
A raft of returning players and now the situation is almost reversed with SA now having the old hands where the AB average/ no. tests drops considerably with the McCaws, Mils etc not travelling.

Certainly Zacs last chance and Dagg, Toeava, Woodcock and Kahui to have their first runs in a while.

Still a lot of experience but certainly a baby blacks look to it, especially in terms of leadership.

Biltong might get a little excuted here, the likes of Woodcock,Kahui,Toeava,Hoeata.Afoa,have not had a lot of rugby over the last couple of weeks.
I was somewhat surprised at them not using this opportunity to let reid get some captaincy experience, South africa is the perfect place, but they've gone for Mealamu.

excited not excuted.....

I think you need some continuity given the players missing. Mealamus the most experienced and they'll need it here with some key leadership/ experience missing at the Mcaw, Thorne, Carter, Smith and Mils positions.

Its still a good side but lack of play for some- for ages is a concern. SA will rid of some rust themselves this weekend so these names make watching this weeks match closely a must for us all!

The 3ns has now been given to the Wallabies in the hope they can win the RWC redemption.SHAME on them when your ahead keep the foot on the throat do you learn nothing ftrom history ?
Expect a fired up OZ to win this one versus a rusty Bok side,had the Boks played this side all seasons. Bok win!!!
"Face the Boklash",with a side with a third choice leader and mix and match
backline.
Not fair on the Players or the Fans,should have sent the first team squad,and fed in from the bench.
You don`t even know if the returning injured can manage a full game,Hoerta carrying an injury Donnelly on stand by.
An ambush in Brisbane,another loss to a rested Oz side,RWC momentum gone.
I have no respect for the RWC,but lots of NZ fans have this is a DISGRACE they don`t deserve a RWC using these tactics.

Totally expected alan. Surely its not that surprising.
Amazing thing is how aus have elected to risk their players all in the sake of saving face.
Back on the hard grounds oz are risking damage to key players they cant do without.
Deans has lost it i think.
This weekends match will be brutal and this SA team is based on a school of hard knocks.
Dagg woodcock kahui toeava guilford must be given last chances but yes gh is risking a loss because of the world cup.
Alan hed be shot down more if carter or mccaw got seriously injured in SA so its about managing whats in front of him. Mitigating the risk.

Sorry,Taylorman I was bought up in a era,when SAvNZ was THE match always.BOTH sides were rough and tough no quarter asked or given,NO
player shirked.
THE shirt was precious EVERY one not to be given away to someone else who was`nt as good as you.
THE player stayed until someonr better came along,THEN the selectors were ruthless and you were gone.
Ask yourself this,IF a precedent had NOT been set in 2007,would you have seen it this year.
ALL previous 3Ns in RWC years were contested by full strength sides.IF the ABs a very good chance to notch another 3Ns now then lose the RWC as well.
HOW will the media and fans react then,?For myself I neither care if they win or the RWC or not.
Win it and it will be "OH,but they can only win at home",lose and its "They`ve choked again"
THAT does`nt bother me, I`ve been there before, throwing a 3Ns DOES!!!

Alan with all due respect, I understand you are not a young man anymore, and there for hard to change.

But in the golden years of tests tours, that was all there was.

Players from SA and NZ played their domestic competition and then a few tests a year.

In the modern era of rugby, players between Local compeititions, Super rugby and tests will carry the burden of playing non stop rugby for 10 months of the year.

Their bodies cannot cope with it all, surely you can understand that the RWC is important to many New Zealanders and it is the responsibility of Graham Henry to provide them the best opportunity possible to win it at home.

Things have changed my friend, of that there is no doubt.

Very true Biltong,BUT for me you put out your best available team every time.Of course I understand that the RWC is important to most NZ fans,BUT to me it is just another match to win.
Carter,McCaw,Conrad Smith all short of game time,back to there near best
and you hide them.?
Sorry the end does`nt justify the means,NZ have the back ups if they choose to field them that could do a job.
IF Carter and McCaw were injured,they could still travel and be fit for the key France pool game,Todd or Berquist could back them up if they did`nt
make it.
I could`nt imagine Meads,Tremain,Skinner,or Fitzy quaking in there boots they`d be ready to rumble,and it`s a fair bet the other man would come of worse.

I am trying to work out who is not there.

Backline
Dan Carter, Conrad Smith, Mills Muliaina

Forwards
Brad Thorn, Read, McCaw, Owen Franks


Did I miss anyone?


This is still a damn good team, it is clear that Henry has done his work over the last 4 years. The only thing I can see will be missing on this tour is McCaw's leadership, McCaw and Read's work at the ruck and Carter's control of the back line. Read's ball carrying ability could also be a little bit of an issue.


The All Blacks really has nothing to lose here, they will run onto the field with 5 or 6 players who are not first choice, but a win will mean a lot to Graham Henry and confirm his depth, whereas for PDV the now becomes a must win game.

I don't think you lose much with Muliaina, to me he is not necessarily weakening the back, by not being there

Is Sivivatu still first choice?

Alan the extended superxv with the extremely high level of injuries across all 3 and for nz the unexpected level of travel by the crusaders has caused the problems this year.
Yes you'd prefer to thrash the team every time but reality is world cup is here and it is now the standard.
No one really remembers each of the 3N matches of 2002 but they sure remember the 1999 lost to france, the 2003 loss to oz and the 2007 loss to France.
Whether we like it or not we are judged and measured by the world cup results. Youre entitled to your opinion. You just might find its not a very common one.
Id like to win every test too.
but todays world doesnt always make that possible though youll probably find that todays abs are more successful than any youve followed. So perhaps theyre doing something right. We just have this little matter of a little cup to settle.

emack2 wrote:Very true Biltong,BUT for me you put out your best available team every time.Of course I understand that the RWC is important to most NZ fans,BUT to me it is just another match to win.
Carter,McCaw,Conrad Smith all short of game time,back to there near best
and you hide them.?
Sorry the end does`nt justify the means,NZ have the back ups if they choose to field them that could do a job.
IF Carter and McCaw were injured,they could still travel and be fit for the key France pool game,Todd or Berquist could back them up if they did`nt
make it.
I could`nt imagine Meads,Tremain,Skinner,or Fitzy quaking in there boots they`d be ready to rumble,and it`s a fair bet the other man would come of worse.

Alan, be thankfull PDV didn't coach the all Blacks, then you would have been in a position where he would replace almost all the forwards with new caps, put together a back line of out of form senior players, some that didn't even deserve to wear the jumper, and a bunch of newbies.

Then they could be on a hiding to nothing. Graham Henry didn't do that, he didn't devalue the All Black jumper, there will still be more first choice players than second choice, and the second choice players have all worn the jumper before and proven themselves to be quality international players. Perhaps not the rounded articles yet, but close.

Alan, and Taylorman, can I just make a request please.

Can you put your All Black articles under INTERNATIONAL, it is just easier to find

thanks

Thats about right biltong.
The SA team selected for oz is stronger particularly given they get a match with oz first, removing some rust.
Many of these abs havnt played for ages other than brief itm visits this week.
New combos etc but im looking forward to something different. Its youth against experience largely though we have a couple of old boys in there to steer the ship.
And ok re the article thing.

I think the general consensus amongst AB supporters is that
GH has made the right choices.
I f either Richie or Carter were to be injured v S Af the public
outcry would be unprecedented only 3 wks out from the start of
the rwc.
Gonna be v interesting to see how the match pans out.
You gotta think that the boks have gotta start as red hot favorites

Gotta agree gunner. Favourites they will be and depending on this weekend might be a matter of how much.At a squeeze boks could win the 3n with two big wins.
But when i saw that ab team my first reaction was cool. Something new and refreshing. A real challenge for us. A team up against it.
This is the reality for us next year so cant wait.

Let's first see what the Boks do, before we tag them as favourites. They will have to shake their rustiness early against the Wallabies, and like John Robbie said last night, the boks must trounce the Wallabies, if we want to gain plenty of confidence.

I think he is a little over optimistic, but hopefully these Boks are now tired of disappointing us over the last 10 or so tests and are ready to show us their metal.

This looks like an excellent opportunity for Colin Slade to cement his position as Carter's designated understudy/backup - can't imagine that he'll get an armchair ride the whole way, but this seems just the environment to really see what he's got at this level

Biltong Read was left out in case you didn't know-didn't see it on your list mate.

Saw a video of Henry talking about it. He conceded yes it was a risk but it is also a risk throwing players into a WC QF, SF or F with no big match experience, and he said it was better to take the risk now. I agree with Emack about the tests, but in this day and age it was a sensible and pragmatic decision by Henry. I'd be happy with a reduction in the number of Tests in order to keep internationals at the top of the rugby tree.

I'm quite excited about the squad too. Love that Kahui will be given a go at 13 as I've always liked him when fit.

Could be a possible Chiefs midfield if SBW partners Kahui. Nonu could cover wing at a pinch, looking forward to seeing Dagg at 15 also.

Aussie are going the other way but they need momentum more than us. However this is a risk as the Boks will look to annihilate them and there could be quite a few injuries as a result. If anything happens to Genia the Aussies are in deep defecation.

Disney i think SANZAR needs to sit down and look at their whole schedule.

It is crammed and not good for our game.

If we want to retain the top 3 positions in world rugby, we need a mindshift from quantity to quality.

New Zealand and SA need a minimum of 16 weeks for their ITM cup and Currie Cup, taking into consideration both are breaking their comps down into two groups.


The four nations with no rest between travels will take 6 weeks on a home and away basis.

Super rugby must be rethought so that it doesn't take more than 16 weeks.

That is already 38 weeks of the calender without even lloking at winter tours and summer tours.

SANZAR is going to have to consolidate this, otherwise I see problems.

Biltong,I have been saying just that all season,NH wants looking at too players generally being overworked.
Resulting in longer periods of Re-habilition after injuries and needing rest.
SANZAR should also be investigating THE strongest possible teams being picked during the 3Ns.There is afterall supposed to be such an agreement in place.
As to tomorrow looking at the side picked,Smit over DuPlessis?James over Steyn.
Strange choices at least to me,IF there is any intent of 3NS for the Boks they need two Bonus point wins from there last two games.
Really can`t see this Bok side scoring 8or more tries in two matches,NOW if you Started Hougaard and Lambie,Maybe.
I expect Wallabies will come shooting out of the blocks,to try and build an early lead.Boks will counter by strangling and kicking goals,if it comes down to that there will only be one winner the Boks.
This one will be close on reflection ,if they have been extensively practicing
a narrow Bok win.
My main fear is they will concede a bonus point,leaving the All Blacks to need at least two bonus points plus a better points difference to retain the 3NS with out another win this year.

Alan, I don't think PDV will even try to play the game necessary to score bonus point tries. He is going to use this to practice execution on finals rugby.

I understand why James has been selected over Steyn who has been in very poor form.

John Smit is going to lead the team during the RWC and Bismarck will be the impact player.

Taylorman looking at the squad and combinations my choice of likely team
NOT possibly the best possible.
Props Woodcock,Ben Franks[Afoa]
Hooker Mealamu[Corey Flynn]
Locks Williams,Whitelock[Hoerta,Donnelly]depending if Hoerta passes fit
Flank Thomson,Kaino[Hoerta?]
Eight Messam[Vito]
SH Cowan[Ellis]
1-5/8 Slade[Weepu]
2-5/8 SBW[Nonu]
Centre Kahui[Toeva]
wing Gear,Cory Jane
FB Toeva[Dagg]
I expect Hoerta,Toeva,CoryJane and Dagg to interchange maybe at
6/Lock.or FB/Wing/ Centre at some time during the match.
IF Ted is going for the WIN more than just game time,HORE ,and Nonu ,Guildford would start Cory Jane would start at full back,AFOA would be nowhere near it.
As to not haveing seen a more successful All Blacks side,I would remind you
I lived thru an era when the All Blacks lost a single series in nearly two decades and that was damned close.
That in its most successful period it was 32 matchs,29 wins.1 draw,2 losses.a win rate of 97,6 %

True Biltong, but Butch James?,Lambie,Grant or Rose all make better options

Yes, most of us believe Lambie is our next big hope. PDV is only looking at experience, nothing else.

Lambie looked good when he came on against us.
Don't worry Alan I don't see us losing this 3 Ns.
SA to win this week no bonus point.
SA or NZ to win next week with no bonus points.
NZ to beat Aus with no bonus points.
So we got it sweet.
The difference between the old days and now is that we play each other too often so each test is not that special. How many times has McCaw come up against Pocock in the last 2 years for example. 5/ 6 times in Super rugby and tests or something like that?
I'm afraid a NZ SA test is less valuable than they used to be.
It used to be pretty special to play 20 odd tests. McCaw must have play SA 20 times by now.

time for the 3N to be cancelled during RWC years if this is how everyone is going to treat these games. its a phoney war when 1st choice teams are playing against 2nds and thats not what international rugby TEST matches should be about. Either treat it with respect or don't do it at all.

Am thinking along the same lines as Islington. Not much point.

It's a good team. I don't see what the fuss is. If that AB team loses, I'll be disappointed.

We also haven't seen which team SA will name to face them.

yeah its good, there's no such thing as a bad all blacks team. But its not the best they could put out and thus devalues the 3n as a competition.

Whilst,I agree the 3Ns should be abandoned rather than derate it as now.
Where do you stop? Super 15players like NZ did in the early rounds in 2007?.Either way it was poor,and as result the All Black squad was undercooked 2007.
Neither Sa or NZ were blameless in 2007 but at least the Boks had a RWC to show at the end.
As theres no such thing as a poor All Blacks side,side that faced France first match 2009 was the weakest ina decade.
They had some pretty ropey ones thru the 1970`s but strangley not all that many losses,certainly less than there should have been.

Agree alan.
Theres reason to call off the 3N during cup years as it doesnt do justice to either.
In having thought about it we would end up having nothing.then having relatively nothing in pool play. The knockout after. Virtually no hard matches.
So then we would start wanting matches and arrange friendlies like the NH.
But we're not like the NH.
We dont do friendlys very well.
So i have arrived at thinking we do exactly what we have now but accept that for wcup years we acknowledge we need larger squads to maximise the chance of a sanzar team winning the world cup as well as having a solid tournament and wcup prep at the same time.
Just next time we dont do it with the skullduggery we have done it this time.
In this respect pdv has possibly unwittingly come up with a good compromise.
It might sound like its compromising the 3N but it does offer new challenges for all 3. And a chance to develop depth.
Beats having friendlys and its up to each team who they play.

"Backline
Dan Carter, Conrad Smith, Mills Muliaina

Forwards
Brad Thorn, Read, McCaw, Owen Franks"

Still a great All Blacks side. It will be interesting to see how they do without Carter and McCaw as there is always a lot of debate regarding that.

Boks - team looks great. However not sure what Butch James still brings to the game as an outside half, never really rated him. I would have gone for Ruan or Lambie. I expect them to win their home games and expect the 'bok backlash' at some point too. I remember a wounded Bok team absolutely destroying Aus back in 2008, weren't pretty if you were a Wallaby.

Yes nottins. And that could happen tonight.
I dont think deans has had any plan since eden park other than to avoid another loss.
Yet these players cannot get injured and for that reason and the greater cup cause may not give their all.
Reversely. These SA players will be jumping out of their skins to play after a long wait.
They wont hold back and know that snashing oz in the samoa nz fashion is key to winning
ive gone for a big SA win and frankly am surprised at so many going for oz in the poll here.
I reckon at least 18 points but wouldnt be surprised if its 30.
In fact ill change it to 28.

Agree Taylor but we could both be wrong also. Deans knows how to win in South Africa, he's been coaching his teams to do it for many years. They'll be confident and full of running as per. Backing the home team though partially for the reasons you've mentioned.

And its not like deans has a lot of options. Samoa has exposed the lack of depth so badly i bet he just cant wait for the 3N to end.
And his high risk high speed method of winning suggests injuries to key players are more than possible especially with the likely SA plan...PAIN!
Stopping oz is simple. Crash the~?~&" out of them.
Doing it is another thing.
I havnt looked but his SA record isnt that great and for me deans had way too many eggs in coopers basket.
Oz only hope is SA really are too old and slow for oz and if thats the case we'll be badly wrong. I just dont think so. Feeling is boks are ready for this. Big time.