Which 2 Players Would Your RWC Squad Miss Most??

We all know that the RWC coaches have a likely starting XV in their minds and in that staring XV are probably 3 or 4 at least who are nailed on as starting. However there's always the danger of injury in training - it always happens. Richard Hill was broken in 2003 and missed a number of games. However, he was luckily back to his best before the final.

Hypothetically, if you were the coach of your national side, which two players would you be most loathe to lose? As an Englishman, I reckon Lancaster could not do without Robshaw or Joseph at the moment, with Brown a close third. Drop 2 of these 3 out of the side and England would be in trouble. There's enough back up in most of the positions, but 7 & 13 are crucial for England at the moment. Brown also brings a certain "je ne sais quoi" to the team.

I don't think I have ever seen Robshaw substituted in his 37 cap career apart from on his debut back in 2009.

For Wales despite his youth and relative inexperience our main loss (might still happen) would be Samson Lee, the other tightheads we have tried are just not up to the mark and Francis is very un tested at this level.  I think the other (hopefully hypothetical) big loss would be Biggar, he has really kicked on and come of age over the past 18 months and again the alternatives just don't fill me with confidence.

I'd be inclined to say Brown and Tom Youngs for England. Youngs is obvious: with no Hartley and Webber out of form, without Youngs we are dependent on untried hookers. Brown is more a question of style: without his counter-attacking skills at the back, England have to play in a different way and one that didn't work against Ireland. Robshaw would be next, but I think we'd only really struggle if two of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell were injured.

And while there's definitely a gap between Joseph and any likely replacement (absent Manu), Burrell has at least done a good job there.

In every other position, there are alternatives that we could live with:
Marler - Mako/Corbs
Youngs - ?
Cole - Wilson
Launchbury - Attwood
Lawes - Parling
Wood - Haskell
Robshaw - Wood
Vunipola - Morgan
Youngs - Care
Ford - Farrell
Nowell - Yarde / Roko
Barritt - Twelvetrees / Farrell / Burgess / Eastmond / whatever
Joseph - Burrell
Watson - May / Ashton
Brown - Goode

For the ABs, there's just one player I hope not to lose and that is Aaron Smith. Of course missing McCaw, C Smith, B Smith, Savea, Coles, Read, Retallick and Nonu would dent our chances. But Aaron Smith is the key for us imo as he plays on another planet.

I think we already are missing one of them. Fir me Cruden was critical to the way this side went. He is simply the best playmaker around. It's showed in his absences...Ellis last year Barrett was no replacement and after Cruden went down in round 10 this year Chiefs lost five of their seven losses for the year, the first two losses while he was there by one point in Durban and three to the Highlanders. Chiefs just weren't the same any more. Carter may be the 10, but he's well off the levels of Cruden just yet.

Poorfour wrote:I'd be inclined to say Brown and Tom Youngs for England. Youngs is obvious: with no Hartley and Webber out of form, without Youngs we are dependent on untried hookers. Brown is more a question of style: without his counter-attacking skills at the back, England have to play in a different way and one that didn't work against Ireland. Robshaw would be next, but I think we'd only really struggle if two of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell were injured.

And while there's definitely a gap between Joseph and any likely replacement (absent Manu), Burrell has at least done a good job there.

In every other position, there are alternatives that we could live with:
Marler - Mako/Corbs
Youngs - ?
Cole - Wilson
Launchbury - Attwood
Lawes - Parling
Wood - Haskell
Robshaw - Wood
Vunipola - Morgan
Youngs - Care
Ford - Farrell
Nowell - Yarde / Roko
Barritt - Twelvetrees / Farrell / Burgess / Eastmond / whatever
Joseph - Burrell
Watson - May / Ashton
Brown - Goode

Losing two players in one position is the toughest. Wales lost Adam Jones to retirement then Lee and Jarvis to injury during the six nations.

If England lost Farrell and Ford or Youngs and Care, or like Wales Cole and Wilson they would be worse off, unless Cipriani could hold it together.

For Scotland, I would be fairly terrified if we lost Finn Russell or Jonny Gray.

There simply is no substitute from a jock perspective for either of those guys.

I would also be fairly unhappy if we lost Stuart Hogg too - very few NH 15s are like him.

I'd actually disagree on Jonny Gray, top player though he is. My two would be Russell and Hogg, with Nel a close third.

Yeah FES, I have to agree. Jonny Gray is outstanding, but we do at least have other international-standard locks available. If we lose Russell and Hogg there is no one of a halfway-comparable quality behind them. We would very quickly regress to 2012-style nothingness.

maestegmafia wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd be inclined to say Brown and Tom Youngs for England. Youngs is obvious: with no Hartley and Webber out of form, without Youngs we are dependent on untried hookers. Brown is more a question of style: without his counter-attacking skills at the back, England have to play in a different way and one that didn't work against Ireland. Robshaw would be next, but I think we'd only really struggle if two of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell were injured.

And while there's definitely a gap between Joseph and any likely replacement (absent Manu), Burrell has at least done a good job there.

In every other position, there are alternatives that we could live with:
Marler - Mako/Corbs
Youngs - ?
Cole - Wilson
Launchbury - Attwood
Lawes - Parling
Wood - Haskell
Robshaw - Wood
Vunipola - Morgan
Youngs - Care
Ford - Farrell
Nowell - Yarde / Roko
Barritt - Twelvetrees / Farrell / Burgess / Eastmond / whatever
Joseph - Burrell
Watson - May / Ashton
Brown - Goode

Losing two players in one position is the toughest. Wales lost Adam Jones to retirement then Lee and Jarvis to injury during the six nations.

If England lost Farrell and Ford or Youngs and Care, or like Wales Cole and Wilson they would be worse off, unless Cipriani could hold it together.

Never wish injury on anyone but Jarvis wasn't a loss and if Lee doesn't make it then I hope we don't go with Jarvis. Just touching on the ABs then Conrad Smith would be a huge loss IMO.

Yeah, they'd have to replace him with Fekitoa.  Tough break for the AB's!

Smith for me is head and shoulders the best in the world in his position so would be a loss whoever they replaced him with

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd be inclined to say Brown and Tom Youngs for England. Youngs is obvious: with no Hartley and Webber out of form, without Youngs we are dependent on untried hookers. Brown is more a question of style: without his counter-attacking skills at the back, England have to play in a different way and one that didn't work against Ireland. Robshaw would be next, but I think we'd only really struggle if two of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell were injured.

And while there's definitely a gap between Joseph and any likely replacement (absent Manu), Burrell has at least done a good job there.

In every other position, there are alternatives that we could live with:
Marler - Mako/Corbs
Youngs - ?
Cole - Wilson
Launchbury - Attwood
Lawes - Parling
Wood - Haskell
Robshaw - Wood
Vunipola - Morgan
Youngs - Care
Ford - Farrell
Nowell - Yarde / Roko
Barritt - Twelvetrees / Farrell / Burgess / Eastmond / whatever
Joseph - Burrell
Watson - May / Ashton
Brown - Goode

Losing two players in one position is the toughest. Wales lost Adam Jones to retirement then Lee and Jarvis to injury during the six nations.

If England lost Farrell and Ford or Youngs and Care, or like Wales Cole and Wilson they would be worse off, unless Cipriani could hold it together.

Never wish injury on anyone but Jarvis wasn't a loss and if Lee doesn't make it then I hope we don't go with Jarvis.  Just touching on the ABs then Conrad Smith would be a huge loss IMO.

Jarvis is firmly not an automatic choice, I would imagine he is probably our third or fourth option. That said he did really well when he came on for Lee vs Ireland this year.

IanBru wrote:Yeah FES, I have to agree. Jonny Gray is outstanding, but we do at least have other international-standard locks available. If we lose Russell and Hogg there is no one of a halfway-comparable quality behind them. We would very quickly regress to 2012-style nothingness.

I can see where you're all coming from but for me the biggest loss would be Alex Dunbar and Mark Bennett. Both times Glagow played Bath in Europe Dunbar controlled the midfield, until he was injured in the second game. As a result young Joseph did very little at 12 for Bath. Compare and contrast with the Calcutta Cup game where Scott played the first 40 and Joseph had the freedom of the pitch then after half time Tonks came on and stuck close to Joseph, who took him for a walk while Ford made hay.

Sad to say both Dunbar and Bennett missed the last month of the season due to injuries. Will they actually be recovered in time for the World Cup?

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I'd be inclined to say Brown and Tom Youngs for England. Youngs is obvious: with no Hartley and Webber out of form, without Youngs we are dependent on untried hookers. Brown is more a question of style: without his counter-attacking skills at the back, England have to play in a different way and one that didn't work against Ireland. Robshaw would be next, but I think we'd only really struggle if two of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell were injured.

And while there's definitely a gap between Joseph and any likely replacement (absent Manu), Burrell has at least done a good job there.

In every other position, there are alternatives that we could live with:
Marler - Mako/Corbs
Youngs - ?
Cole - Wilson
Launchbury - Attwood
Lawes - Parling
Wood - Haskell
Robshaw - Wood
Vunipola - Morgan
Youngs - Care
Ford - Farrell
Nowell - Yarde / Roko
Barritt - Twelvetrees / Farrell / Burgess / Eastmond / whatever
Joseph - Burrell
Watson - May / Ashton
Brown - Goode

Losing two players in one position is the toughest. Wales lost Adam Jones to retirement then Lee and Jarvis to injury during the six nations.

If England lost Farrell and Ford or Youngs and Care, or like Wales Cole and Wilson they would be worse off, unless Cipriani could hold it together.

Never wish injury on anyone but Jarvis wasn't a loss and if Lee doesn't make it then I hope we don't go with Jarvis.  Just touching on the ABs then Conrad Smith would be a huge loss IMO.

Jarvis is firmly not an automatic choice, I would imagine he is probably our third or fourth option. That said he did really well when he came on for Lee vs Ireland this year.

He seems to be the preferred option after Lee, I hope Francis gets a run in the warm up games.

England have no stand-out players such that missing them would make a huge difference.

Arguably with Hartley out and webber urine poor, tom Youngs would be a loss - but then many view him as a liability anyway.

So really it would be a case of losing multiple players from a pivotal position. Losing Youngs and Care would be a blow - but Wiggy, Dickson and Simpson would do fine. Should Ciupriani be charged with drunk driving, losing ford and Farrell could hurt. Even then a player currently not in contention like burns can stand up and play as he did in NZ last summer.

So really for me the biggest issue would be if we lost Cole and Wilson (could call Wales issues as well of course if that happened).

jimbopip wrote:

IanBru wrote:Yeah FES, I have to agree. Jonny Gray is outstanding, but we do at least have other international-standard locks available. If we lose Russell and Hogg there is no one of a halfway-comparable quality behind them. We would very quickly regress to 2012-style nothingness.

I can see where you're all coming from but for me the biggest loss would be Alex Dunbar and Mark Bennett. Both times Glagow played Bath  in Europe Dunbar controlled the midfield, until he was injured in the second game. As a result young Joseph did very little at 12 for Bath. Compare and contrast with the Calcutta Cup game where Scott played the first 40 and Joseph had the freedom of the pitch then after half time Tonks came on and stuck close to Joseph, who took him for a walk while Ford made hay.

Sad to say both Dunbar and Bennett missed the last month of the season due to injuries. Will they actually be recovered in time for the World Cup?

This last season? Eastmond rather than Joseph you mean?

Scrub that it cant be this season as Dunbar only played 45 min of 160.

For Ireland, I'd have to say Murray and Henshaw. Murray is just head and shoulders above any other nine.

I might have said Sexton, but I think the drop-off in quality - and necessary change in game plan - is greater if we have to field Darcy or Madigan than if we start Jackson at ten.

The only reservations I'd have with perceptions based on the past (with Ireland) is the absolute knowledge that Ireland's style must change leading in to the World Cup.  I don't think you can say that of any other team in supposed contention.  We're the only stylistically 'boring' side in the top five or six.
And I think - well I've been thinking for months now - that it's Schmidt's very intention to change tactics dramatically come World Cup time.  I don't think we'll come remotely close to being strong enough if we persist with current 'pragmatic' tactics.  Every nation meeting us will be more resolute and fit - and old tactics (that only got us there and no-more in the past few years) won't hold out under the super-speed blitzkrieg tactics that are going to meet us.

So, in that context, assuming Schmidt knows and is planning for more incisiveness and speed of our own, it's difficult to know which two players will prove most essential.  I think Sexton will be asked to play much more like old Leinster style - and one of our to-date-unconvincing wings might 'surprisingly' become less a muck-ruck-resourcer and more an evasionary pathfinder.

Rob Kearney MUST improve - no choice.... so maybe he'll prove himself once again to doubters and be an indispensable one.  I feel our stars will be maybe one or two unexpecteds.

Robshaw and T.Youngs being absent would pose the biggest questions.

Perhaps Ksevic or George could step up but it's a big ask.

13 is no issue in my opinion - Burrell has been a better 13 than 12 for England, even Barritt has deputised well at 13 with wins over the likes of Scotland,Australia and Ireland (away).

Slade could also be an option too.

beshocked wrote:Robshaw and T.Youngs being absent would pose the biggest questions.

Perhaps Ksevic or George could step up but it's a big ask.

13 is no issue in my opinion - Burrell has been a better 13 than 12 for England, even Barritt has deputised well at 13 with wins over the likes of Scotland,Australia and Ireland (away).

Slade could also be an option too.

Your probably right Beshocked. Wouldn't Wood just move across and Haskell come in in place of Robshaw.

I have been impressed with George this season...I think he could slot in fine.

I think this boils down to the problem ive mentioned before...we have a host of players all at the same level who can come in and replace others....but few at the next level up...the real pinnacle....

You would want to see Haskell at openside for England? I certainly don't.

Geordiefalcon that's why I have been repeatedly going on and on about Itoje - I feel like he's a player who has the potential to play at a higher level.


Funnily enough on the hooker argument I didn't think Hartley had the best 6 nations so his absence actually helps England. England have been relying on Hartley/Youngs too long but now there's an opportunity for someone else.

I guess it's why people got excited about 36. They wanted him to be a world class 12 who could sing,dance and backflip.

I'd agree the most likely outcome would be to move Wood across to 7 but Kvesic has been very good this season, I'd have no real fears about bringing him in. Likewise I'd have no fears about George coming in for Youngs, though it's pressurising Cowan-Dickie given his experience.

Am quite surprised to see people saying Robshaw would be a big loss given the clamour for Armitage to be in the squad or does that just simply mean Robshaw would move to 6?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Am quite surprised to see people saying Robshaw would be a big loss given the clamour for Armitage to be in the squad or does that just simply mean Robshaw would move to 6?

Robshaw is the beating heart of the team. There are plenty of exceptions but the majority of opinions I see are not in favour of Armitage coming in instead

lost,

Its good to hear that as I still don't get all the fuss about Armitage. I am not saying he's not good but best in the world as some proclaim far from it, plus anyone can look good in that Toulon team at the moment.

I know there is always the debate over Robshaw but I rate him very highly and I think he's one of these players you don't actually realise how good he is or what he brings to the side until he's not there.

The media was clambering for Armitage...not the knowledgeable rugby fans. We all know how good Robshaw is and what he brings to the team.

7.5
I totally agree about Kvesic. He has been very impressive this season. Finally getting back to the performances for Wuss. And he is a captain. I think the back row will be rejigged next season and he could make a big play for it.

Beshocked...
No I wouldnt want to see Haskell at 7 for England..my choice would be Kvesic. But I have no doubts what so ever Lancas would move Wood to 7 and bring Haskell on at 6.

Its the big drawback of having a such a large pool of players. That plus hype (and being european player of the year certainly helps) means that there are endless debates about so and so being a better option.

I agree the media hype in exclusion up way more that it is and I think its the case of what you cant have etc

Phil Vickery

If S.Armitage wanted to play for England he would be back in England - with his profile someone would have signed him up.

Robshaw is a very good player but still not convinced of him as captain. Unfortunately there aren't great potential replacements.

For England it would have to be Manu and Hartley.

SecretFly wrote:The only reservations I'd have with perceptions based on the past (with Ireland) is the absolute knowledge that Ireland's style must change leading in to the World Cup.  I don't think you can say that of any other team in supposed contention.  We're the only stylistically 'boring' side in the top five or six.
And I think - well I've been thinking for months now - that it's Schmidt's very intention to change tactics dramatically come World Cup time.  I don't think we'll come remotely close to being strong enough if we persist with current 'pragmatic' tactics.  Every nation meeting us will be more resolute and fit - and old tactics (that only got us there and no-more in the past few years) won't hold out under the super-speed blitzkrieg tactics that are going to meet us.

So, in that context, assuming Schmidt knows and is planning for more incisiveness and speed of our own, it's difficult to know which two players will prove most essential.  I think Sexton will be asked to play much more like old Leinster style - and one of our to-date-unconvincing wings might 'surprisingly' become less a muck-ruck-resourcer and more an evasionary pathfinder.

Rob Kearney MUST improve - no choice.... so maybe he'll prove himself once again to doubters and be an indispensable one.  I feel our stars will be maybe one or two unexpecteds.

Delighted if that turned out to be true... But even if it is true, Murray is our most indispensable player as our alternates aren't at the races. Followed by Sexton/Henshaw.

I'd be worried if I was Irish, 9/10 as a combo being so reliant, it'll take 1 rogue back rower and they are hurt.

I'd probably agree both are extremely important, not just that their back up aren't as talented, but that the gamelan wouldn't work without one or both available

Fanster wrote:I'd be worried if I was Irish, 9/10 as a combo being so reliant, it'll take 1 rogue back rower and they are hurt.

I'd probably agree both are extremely important,  not just that their back up aren't as talented, but that the gamelan wouldn't work without one or both available

Oh we are worried... Jackson I think can step up if needed, but we are very short at SH, 1st centre due to injury/lack of experience.

But injuries can strike anyone... We were in worse shape when we had minimal backup for ROG and he was able to survive a host of rogue backrowers forgetting him...

Watched the wallaby bok game and pocock and hooper are on another planet, with them for aussie and Warburton/tipuric for Wales I worry for the group of death.I rate Robshaw especially as captain but still have concerns.    I think Armitage could of been the answer but needs to be forgotten about now after that...don't rate kvesic as an International yet and who else is there? Saull, Wallace, Fraser, mercer haven't come to much and the rest are 6s in disguise, reckon Brad barrit could have been a world class7 wonder if lancs will swap him with burgess!!

Somehow we have worked out how to play both of these teams in the last few years without a 'proper 7'.

Its worth saying that these kinds of players look fantastic in some games where things work out for them, and all but useless in others when teams adapt to shut them out. We play things right and get numbers to the breakdown on time we will do just fine

lostinwales wrote:Somehow we have worked out how to play both of these teams in the last few years without a 'proper 7'.

Its worth saying that these kinds of players look fantastic in some games where things work out for them, and all but useless in others when teams adapt to shut them out. We play things right and get numbers to the breakdown on time we will do just fine

Exactly. England have beaten both Australia and Wales twice on the bounce. Warburton and Hooper played for their respective sides in those games yet England came out on top.

That's not to say they aren't good players just that England have proved more than enough for them in recent showings. I don't remember thinking 'I'm glad we won but we were bossed at the breakdown' or that we were particularly lacking.

It's more about having a good balance (across the side and not just in the back row) than having strictly defined roles for positions.

Dylan Hartley and Manu Tuilagi...................

We'd miss Joe Marler. He has a dry sense of humour, and is usually good value in squad videos. Since they are in camp for such along time, you'll need someone to keep people smiling.

That's one reason Gatland pulled off a coup getting Paul Stridgeon on his team, because he's a great character, and his Lions experience means he has everyone's automatic respect.

There are a lot of views above I agree with, so thought I'd pop a quick list for each nation...

Australia - I thought Folau and genia would be huge losses. Folau well because Folau, and genia because despite him losing the jersey I think he offers world class and has RWC experience. I couldn't think of a more important player if aus truly want to lift the Webb Ellis.

England - robshaw is mr England, for me there is no player that comes close to being able to galvanise a team. I'd say him aside England can cover every other position, with maybe hooker a worry behind youngs, not that I rate youngs, but he does work well within the English team.

Ireland - Murray and sexton run the show, lose both and Ireland are a different team altogether! I have to say though POC missing from that pack would be huge also, I think Ireland probably have 5/6 key players in best, POC, SOB, Murray, Sexton and Henshaw who they couldn't afford to lose

New Zealand - simply Aaron!!! Without Cruden Smith will be heavily involved in everything, he is world class and behind him is distinctly average in comparison. I think new Zealand has cover for everyone else, maybe a loss would be whitelock, or Read.

Scotland - I wanted to say Finn Russell but I still need to see that he can handle international rugby first, with question marks surrounding other 10's I'm not sure he would be that great a loss as there are pressing matters elsewhere, what's the point in Finn playing well in a 30 point loss!
My first pick would then be Ford (bare with me) there is little behind him, and I think his form is on the rise, he gets little credit come line out time despite being heavily involved in long periods of Scotland's superb line out play, and still has the potential to be a standout. He has all the qualities he just hasn't had a platform to highlight them yet.
Next would be Dunbar, I don't think he gets the recognition he deserves, he would definitely oust jamie Roberts at Wales and would have 10 English and Irish caps easily, he is the reason the Scottish back line has some potency. The Finn Dunbar relationship reminds me of priest land Roberts early on, but not only can Dunbar be used as a solid get out clause for the 10 he has skills to push the ball wise.

SA - I want to say locks, not sure who played yesterday but with a spate of injuries and merwe opting for France instead they are lacking in the engine room, the reason I will watch the replay of yesterday is merely to see how the line out, maul and work rate of the tight 5 went.

Wales - couldn't buy a tight head right now, and probably similar to Ireland in they have 5/6 key players they couldn't afford to lose, Roberts, bigger, Webb, Scott Williams, halfpenny (due to Williams injury) so essentially their hackle lol!!!!

Lee would and still potentially is the biggest loss for us, we have others to cover albeit young untested but I wouldn't feel confident in whoever we picked at T?head after Lee.

I hope Francis gets plenty of game time in the warm up games and proves to be the answer.

For Scotland - any of our props would be a disaster - we are already at the bare bones

The rest of the positions, we could cover to a degree but if we lose our props we are stuffed

We see how over important scrums are these days - defining who wins matches more often than they should

I'm actually fairly confident that Francis will be able to do well if Lee goes out, I guess we will see in the warm-ups.

Biggest loss for Wales would be Biggar, by a long way

Second could be Lee or Jamie Roberts depending on how Francis does.

Miss July and Miss September.

NZ: Rettalic and Coles.

After the first 2 rounds of the RC I'd say the two plays the Boks would miss most would be Jannie Du Plessis and the Beast - which is a little strange given the poor seasons they've had in Super Rugby. But in both the AUS test and the NZ test, the substitutions / injuries of our first choice front row played a big part in our losses. The 2nd choice props are quite far of the pace set by Jannie and the Beast.

Assuming that Lee is NOT fully fit for the world cup, then we would miss Francis and Roberts most