Neville- England a Waste of Time

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14607562.stm
An interesting piece from a players perspective

Despite the fact I despise Gary Neville, I do think playing for England is a waste of time really, the amount of flack the players get for their performances in major tournaments despite the fact it is clear the Quarter finals of these tournament is probably quite close to the level we should be at.

There is very little motivation for players to do well, because no matter how well they do, the way the media builds the team up they're always bound to dissapoint.

His book looks like it's going to have quite a bit on England and he sounds brutally honest.

I don't think playing for England is a waste of time, but I think it isn't worth it for all the abuse/stick you can get after one bad game or tournament and the way the media can build you up and knock you down. If we were more kind to players who don't have good games I think more would see it differently, but then again it's unreasonable to think you can get away with playing badly and not expect to be pulled up for it.

Does Gary Neville honestly think that England is the only country that slates their players for poor performances at major tournements? It happens in most powerfull football nations. The media from Italy, Brazil, Spain, Holland and France are the same if not worse than Englands media. Maybe this escaped Neville as he didnt experience life outside of England.

If he wasnt all that interested then he should have not played as much as he did. I doubt that this opinion is one that is shared by the majority of players either. Someone like Shearer loved playing for England and was always motivated.

I find his statements to be very irresponsible to be honest. He was a player that alot of the younger generation (that are getting into the England side) would have looked up to so by saying that its a waste of time doesnt give them much motivation now does it?

I feel nothing but anger and sadness when I read this.
It seems the modern English footballer has little/no interest in representing his country, something to do with the 6 figure weekly cheques on offer at their clubs perhaps ?
Players like Neville should realise that long suffering fans deserve better from their team, but having read some of the extracts their failures become more understandable when you become aware of the attitudes and egos that exist in the changing room.
'Pleased when he was injured or not selected' ?
Shame on Neville

Does Gary Neville honestly think that England is the only country that slates their players for poor performances at major tournements? It happens in most powerfull football nations. The media from Italy, Brazil, Spain, Holland and France are the same if not worse than Englands media. Maybe this escaped Neville as he didnt experience life outside of England.

Ridiculous comment to make, of course he only talks about England, because he didn't have the same problems with France, Italy and Brazil etc. because he played for England! He doesn't anywhere say only England has the media backlash, just that for him playing for England was a waste of time.

I also think if you look at France, Italy and Brazil all countries with high expectations, they all seem to be going the same way as England where despite the fact they clearly have a lot of talent they still struggle.

Players like Neville should realise that long suffering fans deserve better from their team

It's those kind of comments that make international football such a waste of time, our fans will never ever be happy unless we win the tournament, and it's what makes the players hate playing for England because every single tournament we expect far too much from the players.

I do believe international football is a waste of time, a lot of the time it just clogs up the football calander, most players are clearly not bothered about playing the games and the way we build them up means we're always going to be faced with dissapointment.

Why is my comment ridiculous? Its my opinion drawn from what i had read. My point being that no ex representatives from the countries i have named have come out and said that playing for their country was a waste of time and they suffer just as much ridicule as the English players do when they dont perform.

I would have thought that as a moderator you could be a little more gracious in countering another posters view. Very sad that a moderator can act in such a way. One of the reasons why i avoid the football section of 606V2.

Would he have started for England that often? Maybe that's why he's annoyed. Also didn't Scholes say something similar? I would imagine it is only guys from some of the big 4 who have a chance at winning trophies feel like this.

'It's those kind of comments that make international football such a waste of time'

Can you explain this comment as well please Invincible ?

eirebilly wrote:Why is my comment ridiculous? Its my opinion drawn from what i had read. My point being that no ex representatives from the countries i have named have come out and said that playing for their country was a waste of time and they suffer just as much ridicule as the English players do when they dont perform.

I would have thought that as a moderator you could be a little more gracious in countering another posters view. Very sad that a moderator can act in such a way. One of the reasons why i avoid the football section of 606V2.

I'm sorry that you felt offended by my comment.

I am not 100% sure though whether any other ex-representatives have come out and said it is a waste of time, although I would be surprised if none have.

Grizzly wrote:'It's those kind of comments that make international football such a waste of time'

Can you explain this comment as well please Invincible ?

You claim us "long suffering fans" deserve more, despite the fact during Neville's international tenure we managed to get to Quarter final of 2002 World Cup, knocked out by winners, Euro 2004 QF, knocked out by finalists and then World Cup 2006 Quarter Finals again, all respectable positions for the quality of our side, yet you still believe we "deserve better". You, like the rest of the country, have such huge expectations of our international side that we will never be able to live up to expectations, will always dissapoint and will always get the backlash, so what is the point?

I think that it all comes down to having pride in playing for your country.
If you are not proud enough and feel that its better to play for the big bucks at club level then you should'nt make yourself available to represent your country.
Its just wrong to come out and say that it was a waste of time to play for your country.

Why though?

I really don't like Gary Neville. But I think it is a breath of fresh air to see an ex-player being so honest about international football, if he thinks it was a waste of time then he has every right to come out and say it was a waste of time to play for your country.

The point being. He should not have made himself available if he thought that it was a waste of time. How could he be motivated to play if he felt like this? Basically he was wasting his time and every England football fans time then.

If he honestly thought that it was a waste of time then he should have made way for another player who wanted to play and would have been more hungry to perform.

eirebilly wrote:The point being. He should not have made himself available if he thought that it was a waste of time. How could he be motivated to play if he felt like this? Basically he was wasting his time and every England football fans time then.

If he honestly thought that it was a waste of time then he should have made way for another player who wanted to play and would have been more hungry to perform.

Fair enough if he felt that way he shouldn't have made himself available, but I do think it's fair to say "Its just wrong to come out and say that it was a waste of time to play for your country." If he really felt that way, then he should be allowed to say it. It was wrong for him to stop somebody else who was more motivated to play for England from playing but not for saying that it was a waste of time.

Although Neville at the time was obviously the best right back we had, and I think even him with a lack of motivation was probably a better option than any more motivated replacement.

How can making a quarter final be considered successful ?
Money talks these days and the players are far happier being worshiped by their clubs fans and earning £100k+ a week than they are trying to succeed for their country, a very modern attitude and one that I detest.

I'd be interested if anyone knows of any other modern retired England footballer who's brought out a book or releasing one soon. I know Beckham/Lampard/Gerrard all have had books, but I think a retired player is likely to be more open and honest.

As someone else already said, for players at big clubs who win trophies each season (Or come close) then I don't think they'd be as motivated than players who are at mid-table clubs, and winning or reaching the final of an international tournament could be a career highlight.

That is the level our players are at I believe, other than the latest World Cup I don't think we have played that bad at major tournaments and were unlucky to lose out on penalties at Euro 2004, and World Cup 2006, we got to about the right stage of the tournament considering the quality of our side, so surely that should be viewed as a success?

I think if any of us were footballers we would all enjoy the side of football which earns us more money and where there is a lot less chance of us being torn apart by the media for one bad performance.

I don't see where this view comes from where we should expect players to love playing for England, it's a job, and that side of the job is paid lower but with worse consequences, of course they aren't going to be happier doing it.

Grizzly, why do you expect the players to prefer playing for their country? Other than patriotism?

England have high expectations,every country has different ones. Hell I would be delighted if Ireland made any competition I've only seen us play in one!

Patriotism is everything, being part of a team that unites an entire country and if successful is regarded as a National hero forever, a legend of the country, your place in national history for ever more.
Anyone witnessing the celebrations in Spain last year will be aware of the impact a successful national team can have on a country - and given the desperate financial plight facing everyone in recent years (and for years to come) I think it's irresponsibile for a multi-millionaire to ridicule his country when so many of his/their fans rely on the sport as an escape from the harsh realities of modern life.
These players have a responsibility as ambassadors, an obligation to behave properly and fairly and to give 100% as role models for millions of youngsters as well as the fans who pay to watch them and enhance their reputations and subsequently their ability to earn even larger sums with their clubs

England are exactly like the Old Firm, under the impression that they are still big teams, living on past glories, unrealistic expectations and still think that they are feared by other teams, not to mention the belief that they 'deserve' to be successful. It's a laughable situation and good to see Neville point this out.

this has NOTHING to do with the Old Firm. Let it go Supe!!

super - it's the attitude of Neville and others that is laughable.
No half sensible fan believes England 'deserve' or 'should' be winning world cups, but we supposedly have some of the worlds best players and they all earn a hell of alot more than their counterparts from more successful countries, so why do they consistently underperform ?
No team is scared of England because they know the players disrespect the shirt, their country and the mug fans who spend hard earned wages supporting them, it's not hard beting a team who play at less than 100%.
There's plenty of passion and committment from players of other nations

Tip, its a perfectly good comparison, the two are very similar indeed when you look at it.

Grizzly, do England play at less than 100%, or is their 100% simply not as good as people think it is. Every England player is horrendous overrated, being ranked fourth on the world is a joke, they're not even top five in Europe in real terms.

Grizzly wrote:Patriotism is everything, being part of a team that unites an entire country and if successful is regarded as a National hero forever, a legend of the country, your place in national history for ever more.
Anyone witnessing the celebrations in Spain last year will be aware of the impact a successful national team can have on a country - and given the desperate financial plight facing everyone in recent years (and for years to come) I think it's irresponsibile for a multi-millionaire to ridicule his country when so many of his/their fans rely on the sport as an escape from the harsh realities of modern life.
These players have a responsibility as ambassadors, an obligation to behave properly and fairly and to give 100% as role models for millions of youngsters as well as the fans who pay to watch them and enhance their reputations and subsequently their ability to earn even larger sums with their clubs

They can escape from the harsh realities of modern life through club football, they can be role models through their clubs. I think patriotism in England has very little meaning today.

I think most fans care more about club football than they do international, so it is only right that the players care more about club football than they do international.

'I think most fans care more about club football than they do international'

If this is true then I think it's very sad and certainly wasn't the case when I followed football avidly, which was only 10 years ago or so.
And please don't suggest that players can be role models by playing for their clubs, I think we all know the vast majority are incapable of bahaving decently.

'Grizzly, do England play at less than 100%, or is their 100% simply not as good as people think it is. Every England player is horrendous overrated, being ranked fourth on the world is a joke, they're not even top five in Europe in real terms'

Probably a bit of both, I also think many English players are horrendously overated, I've struggled for years how Lampard runs the midfield at Chelsea and looks an absolute world beater yet put him in an England shirt and he looks ordinary. But if they're good enough to command wages of £100k, £200k a week or whatever they get these days, they should be able to compete against teh worlds best players.
World rankings means nothing, of course England aren't a top 4 side, I remember USA being ranked 3rd going into the last world cup

And please don't suggest that players can be role models by playing for their clubs, I think we all know the vast majority are incapable of bahaving decently.

What is different than me suggesting they can equally be good role models for the clubs as they can be playing for England. You're the one who said they should be role models, you seemed to suggest they could only be role models for England, I said differently.

This whole role model situation is a joke. No sportsman is under requirement to be a role model. There is something missing in the home if people feel the need to look up to footballers.

Here's the whole part of the serialisation;

There have been times when I reflected on my international career and just thought: ‘Well, that was a massive waste of time.’

Sorry for sounding sour, but my best mate, David Beckham, got butchered after the World Cup in 1998, then my brother, Phil, after Euro 2000.

The whole lot of us got it in the neck at other times. Sometimes we deserved it, but playing for England was one long rollercoaster: some ups and downs, but also quite a few moments when you’re not really sure if you’re enjoying the ride.

It should be fantastic, the best moments of your life. But there is no doubt that too many players spend too much time fearing the consequences of failure when they pull on an England shirt.

I was really struck by one meeting Steve McClaren organised with Bill Beswick, the sports psychologist, and the whole squad. I saw young players terrified of what was in front of them. A few were saying they weren’t enjoying England at all.

The best managers — Terry Venables, Sven Goran Eriksson in his early years, Fabio Capello in patches — have banished those fears for periods, but it doesn’t take much to go wrong before the dread comes flooding back. A healthy edge of nerves at club level would become fear at national level, a fear that if we lost, the world was going to end. Too many players were frightened of what would be said or written about them, of making a mistake.

I WAS DELIGHTED TO SEE C**P WEMBLEY SMASHED TO PIECES

I loved playing under Venables, although it wasn’t all plain sailing. Being a United player at that time was to be a target for some terrible stick. People either loved us or hated us. Fewer than 30,000 fans watched us play Bulgaria one night at the old Wembley, so you could hear every shout. ‘Munich b******!’ ‘Red b******!’

There would be groups of West Ham and Chelsea supporters, lads who had come not to cheer England but to get p****d and hammer a few United players on a Wednesday night. I’d be running up and down the touchline, playing my guts out for my country, then I’d go to pick up the ball for a throw-in and hear a shout of ‘F*** off, Neville, you’re s***! I was delighted when that tired old ground, with its c**p facilities and its pockets of bitter fans, got smashed into little pieces. I never mourned the Twin Towers, not for a minute.

Still, I didn’t let the minority of idiots spoil the experience of playing for England or for Terry. I loved it and at Euro 96 we had a squad, and manager, capable of winning a major title. Perhaps we did in 2004, too, but were we ever really a Golden Generation?

There’s no doubt that the FA mishandled managerial appointments, letting Venables go too easily and appointing Glenn Hoddle and Steve McClaren before they were ready. But would any manager have turned us into England’s first winners since ’66?
Sorry...

Hoddle took over from Venables and it’s been said before: if only he had possessed the man-management skills to go with his undoubted football intelligence. He was a very good coach who wanted England to play the right way.

He also believed in alternative methods, including Eileen Drewery, the faith healer, who’d visited the camp a few times before the World Cup. As a bit of a sceptic, I’d never gone to see her.

When the 1998 World Cup started, some of the players started taking injections from Glenn’s favourite medic, a Frenchman called Dr Rougier. It was different from anything we’d done at United, but all above board, I’m sure.

After some of the lads said they’d felt a real burst of energy, I decided to seize any help on offer. So many of the players decided to go for it before that Argentina match that there was a queue to see the doctor. Before the game, Glenn did his usual pre-match routine of moving around the players, shaking their hands and touching them just over the heart.

We’ll never know if the methods had any positive effect. One of the masseurs told me Glenn had asked the staff to walk around the pitch anti-clockwise during the game against Argentina to create positive energy. Sadly, it didn’t do us much good.

KEEGAN FELL ASLEEP IN THE FRONT ROW OF A TEAM TALK

Under Kevin Keegan’s management, there was a chant, ‘If the Nevilles can play for England, so can I’. At the worst moments during his reign, I’d have happily swapped places with the clowns on the terraces.

Things got so bad during Kevin’s reign that it was a relief to be left on the sidelines or injured. It wasn’t all Kevin’s fault. His time in the job coincided with my most miserable period as a player. But the bottom line is that the England job brutally exposes any manager’s failings. And Kevin, as he’d admit, fell short of the level required.

As well as the problems with the team, I was never thrilled about the gambling culture off the pitch. The amount of time spent on horse racing or cards was ridiculous. It was all very old school, completely different to what I’d become used to in terms of discipline, focus and preparation at United.

We’d have a 10-minute coach journey down to training and players would get the cards out. We’d lose a match and the gambling school would start up again.

Gambling is a cancer in a changing room. I remember the only time I got suckered into a heavy card game. On a pre-season tour with United in Malaysia I ended up playing for a few hundred quid a hand. This was big by my standards and it got right into my head. I went to bed thinking about the Jack of Hearts, the King of Spades.

As a man-manager, Kevin was great getting round the table and talking to players. But we didn’t learn. There were seven, eight coaches, all decent people, like Peter Beardsley and Les Reed, but there was no tactical nous being passed down.

That was summed up one day when Les gave one of his lectures about our next opponents — and Kevin fell asleep. He was sitting on the front row and we could see his shoulders sagging, his head nodding forward. He woke up with a start and all the lads burst out laughing.

At Euro 2000, we could have played for 30 years and we’d never have succeeded. We weren’t good enough, not by a million miles. My brother would take terrible stick for the way we went out, with him giving away a penalty against Romania, but he did us a favour by sparing us any more punishment.
Blessing in disguise: Phil Neville gives away a penalty that would see England crash out of Euro 2000

Blessing in disguise: Phil Neville gives away a penalty that would see England crash out of Euro 2000

I told him repeatedly that he had nothing to feel bad about. ‘We were s***, Phil. We were going home soon enough anyway.’

Eriksson took over from Kevin and made instant improvements. I liked Sven from the start. I would have reservations by the end, but the first few years were as enjoyable as any in an England shirt.

I thought I might even be captain when David Beckham missed a friendly against Paraguay in April 2002. Sven sat me down at the front of the coach on the way to the ground. ‘Gary, I’m going to make Michael Owen captain tonight.’ Typical Sven, he tried to be diplomatic. He practically told me that I was a more natural captain than Michael. He was almost apologising to me.

So why didn’t he give me the job? Nothing personal against Michael, but there were other players, like Rio Ferdinand, Gerrard, Frank Lampard and me, who were more obvious contenders. But Michael was the bigger name, and Sven could be a little weak like that.

And by the World Cup in 2006, we were still way too reliant on an automatic first XI. The big names were guaranteed to play rather than the best team. The experiment during qualifying, when Becks was used in the ‘quarterback’ role in central midfield against Wales and Northern Ireland, proved the point. The team were put out of shape to accommodate the big players.

It seemed to me like a fudge to get around the issue of how to keep Becks, Gerrard and Lampard in the same side. After Wayne Rooney’s sending-off against Portugal and our missed penalties, it was over. My last shot at the World Cup. I stood on that pitch in Gelsenkirchen feeling desolate. That’s it, another chance gone. It’s never going to happen now. Same old story. Why don’t we ever get it right?

IT WAS WRONG OF McCLAREN TO AXE BECKHAM

I felt sorry for McClaren during his reign as manager. I hoped things would work out for him. I knew he was a good coach and I thought he could thrive in international football. I scored my only goal in an England shirt under him, in my last competitive game. Shame it was in the wrong net.

It was that c**p night in Croatia in October 2006 when the wheels came off the Euro 2008 qualifying wagon. It was a bad trip. The coaches sprang 3-5-2 on us a couple of days before what was a massive fixture. I didn’t know if I was capable of delivering what the team needed.

And it was clear a few of the other players were just as unsure as me. We deserved to lose, and I saw more mistakes in selection, watching from home when Croatia came to Wembley for the return.

It would also turn out to be a mistake dropping Becks, Sol Campbell and David James from his first squad. We could all see what he was trying to do. He was trying to start a new regime. But to drop Becks altogether didn’t make sense. He’s not going to be a cancer in the dressing room. He just wanted to play.

I would have one call-up under Capello, in June 2009, for the trip to Kazakhstan. Training was sharp and focused. Capello didn’t tolerate lateness or slackness in any way. A couple of players were late for a stretch and he pulled them up. Someone had a mobile at lunch and he snapped.

There was a real focus in training. I was impressed with everything he did, which made it even more bizarre when he became so erratic in the build-up to the 2010 World Cup in South Africa.

Tactically, he made the biggest mistake of all. I’ve been advocating 4-3-3 with England for years and I couldn’t understand why Capello didn’t turn to it. He went with the traditional two banks of four, and it looked predictable and out of date. I’m not saying we’d have won the tournament with better tactics, but we’d have got closer.

The England situation is changing and improving but we just haven’t produced enough players of the right technical and tactical quality. That’s easily proved by the very few times we have held our own against top opponents. Holland in 1996 is pretty much the stand-out match, which tells its own story. I don’t go along with the idea that Sven should forever be remembered for blowing a ‘Golden Generation’.

Three quarter-finals is a respectable record, and I’m not convinced we ever had the depth to win a major tournament. Because we win trophies galore for our clubs, people seem convinced that we should be winning with England. But they overlook how much our clubs have benefited from the foreign stars sprinkled through the Premier League. Trevor Brooking is banging his head against a brick wall at the Football Association and has struggled to drag the game forward. Everything at the FA seems to take a lifetime.

I regard myself as patriotic but, truth be told, playing for England was a bonus. Winning for my club was always the most important thing, and given a straight choice of a European Cup with United or a European Championship with England, it’s United every time.

None of this ever stopped me giving my all for my country, or being gutted every time we went out of a tournament. But I almost feel a bit sorry for the England players coming through now because they are caught between these massive expectations and the reality of being good, sometimes very good, but probably not of tournament-winning quality.

We are heading in the right direction. The Premier League years have seen a rise in technique and skills and tactical intelligence. But it’s not a transformation that can happen overnight. It will take time. We have our football culture in this country based on the traditional power player and I don’t see us competing seriously for a major tournament for at least 10 years.

I’m afraid we still have a lot of catching up to do.

THE DAY I TAPPED UP GERRARD

Steven Gerrard is undoubtedly a world class player and I wish he'd played for United. I went on a tapping-up mission at Euro 2004 when I knew Chelsea were trying to take advantage of Liverpool
being in turmoil.

'Come play for United,’ I said one day to Steven when we were in the hotel. 'The fans will take to you in no time.' He just laughed, and said: 'I’ll do it if you go to Anfield.'

Personally,I don't think he's said much that we didn't already know.

The managers who had decent records,Venables and Eriksson he felt were good managers, where as the ones who had poor recors like McClaren and Keegan, he also felt were poor.Shock horror!

We knew that Sven had his favourites, we know Keegan did a pretty poor job and that Hoddle was a good coach but had ideas that were resisted by the team.

And of course he was angry that Beckham got dropped by England, or that his brother got criticised.But I'd like to read the rest of his book to see what he says about the way Beckham was treated by Ferguson? Will it be as extreme? I doubt it. He's just saying what certain people want to hear, and is in imo just jumping on the bandwaggon that the media has created to knock the England set-up.

Of course some of it is insightful but most of it we already knew.

He says he's angry Beckham was dropped, but I think he's brave to take a knock at the 'big name' England players and sort of saying they didn't deserve to play some games.

Might give his book a read, don't think that he's just writing what people want to hear, I think he'll be saying how he feels all the way throughout.

The problems start at a young age with English players as we never take underage tournaments seriously.
How often do our best U17, U19, U20, U21 players pull out of tournaments due to minor injuries, or because their clubs hold them back, giving players a false sense of worth and a lack of respect for internatinal competition from the start.
This sends the wrong message before these players even grow up and many keep this attitude even when they do grow up, though personally I think many stay as children in their heads, they just have millions of pounds to act out their tantrums.

Even so, when you get on the pitch shouldn't you be able to get rid of those feelings and just simply play. I understand that it may not be enjoyable all the time however I feel that you need to give 100%. For me there wouldn't be a bigger incentive playing for my country in the World Cup or what not, but then again it is different being there I guess.
Is the question that we just don't have the correct mentality to stand up and be counted at the biggest international events?

All this cowpat about players feeling they are harshly treated by the media is awful.

They are paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week and then cry if some calls them s***. Every professional footballer should feel the utmost pride when pulling on their countries shirt and give 110%.

England players fail to grasp the ideals of international football and don't seem to appriciate the point of it and to me that's because they havn't been brought through the underage levels.

Other countries build teams from youth level get them used to it all but the FA disrespect the U21 european championships and the u17 and u20 world cups where guys like Messi helped make their names