What does the win over the All Blacks mean to the springbok campaign and their opposition.

I think it is pretty much a question on many peoples lips. If you listen to the media, they believe the Springbks are a threat once again. Well to tell you the truth I don't think the win must be the issue here really.

For me the issue is how the individuals have performed. since the Lions tour in 2009 and the Tri Nations there after, the springboks have looked decidedly average. Very seldom did they show any real intensity or hunger. Sure there has been some continuous injuries during this period as well, but many of the world cup winning players just seemd to have lost complete form.

So I want to approach this from a different angle. Many years ago when I was playing club rugby for Edenvale in the Golden Lions second division we had to play Wanderers rugby club at home. They were the leading club in the second division just missing out on the premier division. Obviously this was in the amateur era so players didn't make much money. Our club was devided amongst the old guard and their boys and the new blood, so suffice to say there was really no cohesion or spirit in our team and club, we lost the match 60 - 14 ( can't remember the exact score, but it was humiliating). Any way, our last match of the season was against them at Wanderers rugby ground, our captain called everyone together and pleaded that for once, because it was our last game, let we put our differences aside and play for each other. Needless to say the weeks practice sessions went much better, and we lost the match by 40-24.

After the match I heard the captain of the opposing team say to his coach that this was not the same team they faced in the beginning of the season, where in fact it was exactly the same team, just a different attitude.

Now you may wonder what that has got to do with the Springboks. Well everything really. It is called attitude, hunger and motivation.

Clearly Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn and a few others are all the same players, but yet the intensity and hunger they showed on the weekend was refreshing to see. there was commitment in the tackle, for the first time in 2 years we saw cover defenders getting there and making tackles. When was the last time we saw a cohesive scrum?

When was the last time we controlled the breakdown. Yes I know it wasn't the All Black first choice team, and yes Richie McCAw and Read would have made a big difference to the break dwons, but that is not the point I am trying to make. It is about the effort and guts the springboks showed that has been so lacking over the past two years.

Bakkies Botha was smiling during the match, haggling with the opposition, the last time I saw him enjoying himself like that was when he winked at Phillips during the British and Irish Lions series.

what makes me sit up and take notice, is for the first time in two years, the Boks looked like they wanted to win, yes there are still players that need game time, and some work needs to be done on attack.

At least now I know they are going there with attitude and hunger, we all know sport is 80% mental and that will make them a different team to the one we saw in the last 2 years.

Biltong ,yes that victory was very important to you guys,but the team spirit and concentration was far higher this week,I think the springboks had two good weeks ,sure you didnt win the Australia game but you had to go through that to get where you were on saturday.
That New Zealand team on Saturday has probably done you guys the biggest favour of the year......

Yeah, I did send PDv a tweet to send Graham Henry a gift basket with some good south african biltong and nuts.

PDV will most likely send Henry his game plan,.......


Oh sorry he already did that in 2009

When you say 'their opposition' I assume you mean your world cup opponents. Well if so, the answer is nothing.

You're confident going into this world cup pool and rightfully so Bill but how do you think SA will beat Wales? Will they just try and bash it up again and again? Bearing in mind two very similar teams to SA recently tried that and failed.

I would say that SA are far far better at the bash it up routine then that sorry England team Nottins.

SA looked like they had the hunger back, and the real difference to me was two guys, Bismark and Brossow both of them did what ever was needed when ever it was needed and their actions (turn overs, tackles) visibly lifted the team, you could see the Boks go up a gear as the game went on, and a biggie, they never tired and they never looked like losing control after that initial 30 min period.

They still need to figure out an attacking game that works. They definately need to kick less and with more accuracy and they really need to use the scrum as an attacking weapon.

I can't see them beating Oz or the AB's if they meet them with their first XV's playing unless they change up the attacking game.

I can see them beating wales comfortably.

Nottins Jones, the question is not how SA will beat Wales, there are enough examples of that more than 20 matches in fact.

The question you need to be asking is how will Wales beat the Springboks.

Yappy, not so sure i will be as confident about SA not being able to beat Oz and NZ.

Two weeks ago Oz won, we should have, missed opportunities a well oiled team would not have missed, and oddly as much as everyone is saying we only kick, we declined 3 kicks to posts two weeks ago. Rather otping for the line out.

Well Bill I asked you a question so the least you could do is answer. Out of the 20 matches, probably 6 or 8 of them are relevant.

To beat SA I think we'll need to score a few tries and keep SA from scoring any. To do that we'll need more posession than we've had in the last 3 games. To do that, I think we really need to improve our lineout and avoid lineouts when we can because we're up against the best operators in world rugby. Our backs look great WHEN they get the ball so there's potential to score. Both teams will have a strong defence by the time it comes to world cup so there may be no tries at all and it could come down to the 3 pointers; SA are the 3 point team so will likely win if it does come to that.

Our game though will likely be a lot of emphasis on defence and counter-attack. Who do you think are your best ball carriers?

Agree SA are much better than England upfront and have a much more potent backline (definately than the one that played against Wales).

I think Wales have a chance, but for us to win we have to perform to right at the top of our game and a few things have to go right. But on the plus side we seem to be scoring with when we only get 3/4 chances in a game, and our defence seems very very good.

The problem being that SA have a kicker who will keep the score board ticking over.

Ok Nottins, seeing that you want a sensible debate here goes.

firstly the
springboks as they have showed when they pick up their intensity and in the world cup they will have that, will be formidable in their forward pack. Whoever they pick this pack is mobile. They will be able to keep up the intensity for 80 minutes. The breakdwon will be very competitive from their side and their line outs as always very strong.

Not sure exactly how strong the welsh forward pack is, but if I look at their performances against england not fantastic.

Fourie du Preez and Steyn will play the territorial game well, and keep us in the welsh half. Hopefully Patrick Lambie's injury is not to bad and he will be available to slot in at fullback, he is by far our most creative back and will bring a totally new dimnesion to our backline attack play.

Our midfield defensively is one of the strongest in rugby and with Habana once again showing commitment and JP Pietersen being solid without being spectacular our back line defensive organisation should be very good.

wales will have to chance their arm to get through our defences and in that I see them having to throw caution to the wind and risk something. Habana, de Villiers and Fourie are of the better exponents in intercepting passes, so there could be an opportunity if the Wales back line aren't accurate and astute with their distribution of the ball.

As always we will be aiming to score tries from set phases as almost 50% of our tries do come from set phases.

The players going to the world cup has scored 15 tries vs Wales in their last 5 matches, so whether it be from counter attacks, intercepts, phase play or set pices, i would expect us to score at least 3 tries, unless Wales finds a way to shut down our forwards.

The one big factor that needs to be taken in consideration here, is that alhtough wales have put up some very competitive performances in the last few years, it were all on their home ground and at the end of the SH season.

This time round it is the world cup, where neither team has home ground advantage or at the end of their season. both teams will have prepared for this tournament.

So from that point of view, I fancy our chances.

When you point out SA's strengths it's hard to see past a win for you Bill. Don't forget we also have some good tactical kickers; if Hook and Priestland start you can expect to be pinned back in your half aswell. I think SA know Roberts a bit too well, when we're going through moves I hope they use him as more of a decory. North and Williams will be good attacking from deep too. SA are better than England and Arg in all departments but I still think it was the correct preparation for this game.

Nottins hook and Priestland could do that yes, the question though is are they accurate and long enough to win the territorial battle?

Yes they are. Whether they do win the territorial battle though... Well perhaps we'll have to wait and see .

Either way it is going to be a cracker of a match.

Wales had some good matches against the Tri Nations teams

Coming back against australia from 3-25 down to finish 20-32 in 2007

Their 53-37 loss to NZ in 2003, half time the score was 28-24 to NZ

Did you know SA and Wales have never met in the RWC?

I did know that. So I look forward to this fixture the most. Samoa will be as tough too. I'm expecting Namibia and Fiji to capitulate.

biltongbek wrote:Nottins Jones, the question is not how SA will beat Wales, there are enough examples of that more than 20 matches in fact.

The question you need to be asking is how will Wales beat the Springboks.

Yappy, not so sure i will be as confident about SA not being able to beat Oz and NZ.

Two weeks ago Oz won, we should have, missed opportunities a well oiled team would not have missed, and oddly as much as everyone is saying we only kick, we declined 3 kicks to posts two weeks ago. Rather otping for the line out.

Which i think shows how poor you are in attack, and that if you do not play your A game eg kick the ball, then thanks to your "coach" you have no answers to a solid defence.

Which is why unless PDV figures something out and gets you boys running a bit more you wont beat either of those teams as they aren't going to gift you as many penalties as the AB's did on Sat.

Yappy it is well known that PDV has brought nothing to our game plan. It is there for vital that Patrick Lambie is selected. He can bring something to our attack.

But to think that we don't attack at all is not true. what we don't have is angled running and many variations. We are predictable yes, and play conservative rugby, but don't under estimate it's effectiveness.

There is often talk about the exciting rugby that NZ and Oz play and the SA way is often dismissed. How many times have Australia beaten NZ in their last 10 tests, and how many times have we beaten NZ in our last 10 tests?

you see that is the beauty about rugby, different methods are succesful. Yes I admit i want to see more variation in our attack, but i am not dismissing our chances just because we don't emulate the Australian and New Zealand way.

Agree entirely Biltong. You guys didn't look like scoring a try but at one stage I thought Steyn was going to post 40 points by himself.

biltongbek wrote:It is about the effort and guts the springboks showed that has been so lacking over the past two years.

This was my biggest fear coming to the end of the Tri-Nations.

I honestly thought after the previous weekends games, that the game against SA was a realistic goal for Wales. Its been well-noted that Wales have struggled to beat S.Africa at home (even that scratch side). Even going to this W.Cup flying, I think a hungry S.Africa, even off-form, still takes this Welsh side, theres something about the balls and determination they show that this welsh side cant yet replicate and thatll be the difference.

If S.Africa have started to find some form by the game, and if PDV see's the light and starts Lambie (and I'd go for Aplon on 1 wing, personal choice) then I think the game will definitely be too far out of Wales' reach.

Being welsh though, im born with this naturally defficient "optimism gland" and as such, I predict Wales by 5. Or at least, a moral victory, having better hair or something.

Since 1903 Wales have won one,and drew one since 1906,SA have a record of 92.83% the only stat they have better than the All Blacks among
losses of both sides versus all comers.
Reality,in a RWC any team can win against another few ever beat SA in SA.
Or NZ especially NZ,but in a RWC ANYTHING can happen,worry about Fiji and
Samoa too.
The Boks played well Saturday deservedly won,maybe some thought if they did`nt perform it was there last match in RWC.
Bismarck du Plessis looked elated when he came off for Smit,NOT in the RWC you are serious contenders,you always will be.
BUT,don`t write the All Blacks of on last Saturdays,the first choice side would probably have had 3 tries in the first 15 minutes.
Fair bet DC would have tried a couple of pots too.
All it proved NO SIDE can field a scratch side no matter how individually talented.against a seasoned .organized side.
By the way Wales ,Scrum apart had there hand s full versus Argentina,they just couldn`t finish.Morne Steyn or Hernandez kicking for Argentina wales would have lost.

Whats happened in the last few matches is all 3 countries have done the other team a favour by fielding second teams.
Aus vs Samoa, SA vs OZ and NZ. NZ vs SA. All got something out of it. Confidence or knowledge of their own players strengths or weaknesses so its been a well meaning period.

Henrys goal last match was other than to win but to see where key fringe players were at. He saw that and todays team will reflect that, Dagg in, Messam out, Slade now borderline and perhaps Vito the bolter at Messams demise. Wings I'm not sure. Guilford and Gear could be the ousted, both for opposite reasons- Guilford not classy enough in the true AB wing manner despite a huge workrate and Gear at the other end- classy but can go AWOL for long periods. Pity as both can be stunning when at best.

All 3 3N teams got tough workout's with another this week. A dress rehearsal final perhaps where probably at least one will be there wcup final time.

SA have got some key confidence back and you're right Biltong. Motivation is the single biggest difference between one teams performance and others. That has often been the abs problem when winning- find that extra unique reason for winning THIS match because a team can get to a point where only the mindset can be improved. Different circs for SA but still the same effect.

This weeks match has every reason to be motivated for both sides for obvious reasons so no problems there.

Hate to say it but I think some SA players perhaps have wondered in the past why they keep getting picked after lacklustre efforts, traing etc and perhaps have decided to pick up their games.

Overall though, SA are in the best position in the last 2 years to go into the Wcup after that performance, despite the AB team card as you have said.

emack2 wrote:By the way Wales ,Scrum apart had there hand s full versus Argentina,they just couldn`t finish.Morne Steyn or Hernandez kicking for Argentina wales would have lost.

Here you go again Alan or emack, whatever you prefer to be called. If you aren't going on about how Wales factually cheated against NZ in 1905 then you're talking rubbish like this. I think Contempomi missed about one kick out of all his kicks, which would have given Argentina an extra 3 points. You're right, they would won have won because they needed those extra 3 points to win it; not more than 15 which is what I thought when I looked at the final score...

What match were you watching?,he missed at least 2 plus a drop in the first half alone.Wales scored two brilliant tries in the last few minutes of
first half.BUT apart from the Scrums it was all against the run of play,it may even have been 3 penalties plus the drop.
They were all straightforward to so don`t tell me i`m talking rubbish replay the first half then tell me i`m wrong.

emack's right. Contepomi didn't have his kicking boots on. Having said that, I don't think it would have changed the result just made it a bit more edgy for Wales.

Missed 9 points with the boot. Which would have given Argentina 22 points (still not enough). Here's the match report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013rl7k/Rugby_Union_2011_2012_Wales_v_Argentina/
Apart from their fall over try at the end Argentina never threatened to score. Our defence is looking good. So I think the question is what match were you watching? You are talking rubbish and you are wrong Al, Arg were never in a position to win the game.

SafeAsMIlk, what part is he right about exactly?

The opportunities were there for the taking if it's missed then it was a missed opportunity.
Who's to say that if he had scored then Wales would have up the tempo we can only go by what actually happened not by what could have happened.

A big difference from 3 was`nt it? for sure Hernandez would have set up another couple of pots.Several times they looked like breaching the line but dropped the ball.So I was exagerating but not by much Wales certainly looked good,and considering it was there first match[because no one else wanted to play them].Argentina
Come RWC time they will be no push overs,especially if Hernandez is in the squad.

Of course your right oppertunities were missed,and yes Wales may well have upped the tempo. My point was you`re talking about can you beat the Boks,and i`m saying they are at another level.
That they had there hands full with Argentina relatively speaking,and if the score had been 14-12 as it well could have been at half time.
Argentina may have upped the tempo too,and Morne steyn would have
buried the 3 kicks and been looking for more if you were playing the Boks.
Before you jump Wales won well eventually ,I was very impressed with the difference the "Hair Bear"[don`t know his name] made to the scrum.
Argentina looked very underpowered there by there own best standards,they usually have a very powerful one.

So emack, if we're talking about beating the Boks then shouldn't we be talking about that instead of you telling us Argentina definitely would have won if they had Hernandez or Morne Steyn kicking for them... Which was proved incorrect by myself and Cymro btw. Plus if we're going by would have's, should have's, Arg were missining him and her; then it works both ways. Wales had made 9 changes for that game. The only place Argentina had the advantage was the lineout. They took advantage of some turnovers gifted to them by our errors plus Williams and Powell not being good breakdown operatives anyway. Everytime they were pushed back in the scrum they just collapsed it (like Italy do); a non-french ref would have punished them further but these French officials really have it in for us.

In my opinion Wales only did what was necessary to win the match getting injured understandably would have been at the back of the players mind at this late stage.
But if we are going to make comparisons then the the way South Africa is playing at the moment they would have to hope that Morne Steyn does not get injured because they sure don't look like they could score a try.

Cymroglan wrote:In my opinion Wales only did what was necessary to win the match getting injured understandably would have been at the back of the players mind at this late stage.
But if we are going to make comparisons then the the way South Africa is playing at the moment they would have to hope that Morne Steyn does not get injured because they sure don't look like they could score a try.

Difference being, SA were playing NZ. Wales were playing Argentina. Even if you factor in the depleted nature of the NZ side that's a BIG difference and a BIG step up.

Big step up yes but neither of them would have beaten France.
Of course I know that New Zealand 1st XV are second to none but in all honesty both sides looked pretty average in that game

Cymroglan wrote:In my opinion Wales only did what was necessary to win the match getting injured understandably would have been at the back of the players mind at this late stage.
But if we are going to make comparisons then the the way South Africa is playing at the moment they would have to hope that Morne Steyn does not get injured because they sure don't look like they could score a try.

The way we are playing at the moment?

We misses three try scoring opportunities vs Wallabies becasue of rustiness, we have scored 15 tries vs Wales in the last five tests.

You keep on believing we can't score tries, please tell Gatland that as well.

I don't think nobody in Wales believes that Bill, too much quality in the SA team for that, including the backs which are made to look average half the time VS NZ/Aus backs. SA are a bit rusty and have no games left until Sept 11th as far as I'm aware; so Boks not exactly in the best of positions either.

I'm talking this week not last year or the year before that and do missed try opportunities actually count ?

biltongbek wrote:Nottins Jones, the question is not how SA will beat Wales, there are enough examples of that more than 20 matches in fact.

Hi Bill

Great OP, but your opinion on Wales contradicts all you said in reflection of the SA Vs NZ match.

Wales may have a poor record against you, but a) we are in better shape even with so many injuries and b) after beating the ABs you won't be able to feel comfortable in the build up to the opening RWC match when you arrive in NZ.

I know this may sound odd but I think you may understand, beating the ABs probably did more good to the kiwis than SA. The kiwis will learn from it. SA will use that one game to tell the world to look out, SA are undercooked and need more game time.

The Bok definitely had more fire in their belly but they didn't look a top three team. They don't look ready to make a stamp on this pool, they look ready to receive a few unexpected surprises. Wales, Fiji and Samoa can all give SA that kind of a surprise.

Cymroglan wrote:I'm talking this week not last year or the year before that and do missed try opportunities actually count ?

So you are basing our ability to score tries on the past weekend. Man oh man, I hope Gatland is as naive as you are.

Hi Maestegmafia

When I wrote this post initially, it was about the fact that the boks for the first time in 2 years looked hungry, and the message i wanted to carry over was that this Bok team is a different kettle of fish when they have desire to win.

But sadly these posts have the nack to deliever some points that just need to be responded to.

The posters such as our friend Cymroglan who believes the boks can't score tries are living in a bubble and perhaps i shouldn't respond to comments like that. But the thing is I feel obliged to help them in the right direction. Otherwise he is going to build this bubble of comfort that we won't be able to challenge his team unless we kick.

As I said earlier today, because we don't play rugby like Australia and New Zealand there is this false sense of opinion that we don't score tries in some opinions can't score tries. I don't want to get into detail as I said it all earlier, but the fact is we score the second most tries per quarterfinal, the third most tries per semi final and only in finals have we not scored tries.

Maybe I am wasting my time, let them believe what they want to. We'll have a great post match discussion in 17 days.

Biltong
The reason the ABs didnt score tries last weekend was because the Springboks didnt let them.

Well yes of course I am basing it on your last game it's rather pointless basing it on last years performance,
If you believe that you are playing well then fair enough but I believe that you are not nearly as strong as you were in the not too distant past.
In the past I was happy if we could just even stay within a couple of scores of you but these days I truly believe you are beatable.

Yeah Biltong...perhaps you should work on that. Why didn't that let them... I'm peeved about that too!

they better not behave like that when they come here..!

Hi Auckland, yeah and NZ didn't allow us to score tries.

But hell what do I know, Wales probably have a better defensive system than you guys.

I suppose it is good morning to you taylorman.

Yep just digging... SA dont often let us score tries anyway. they usually have to be spectacular movements with a final dive in 3 or 4 tackles rather than the run ins we get against most teams.

Heres one of pdv's pearlers about the match:

"There are no bonus points at the World Cup," he said.

“We got into their half and created opportunities to score penalties. That's exactly how World Cup rugby is played. This team can go on from here."

My goodness what a philosophy to pass on to budding young players...

"The object of the game of Rugby boys...Is to get into the opposition half to create pressure and mistakes so our kicker can get all our points...lets go boys..."

Anything that gets him across the line I suppose.

I see all the remaining squads are being named through the final day today... I wonder if leaving it till last gives anyone an advantage- ie if a certain player is picked for England, another team might go with the player capable of shutting the player down... probably not...

biltongbek wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:I'm talking this week not last year or the year before that and do missed try opportunities actually count ?

So you are basing our ability to score tries on the past weekend. Man oh man, I hope Gatland is as naive as you are.

Hi Maestegmafia

When I wrote this post initially, it was about the fact that the boks for the first time in 2 years looked hungry, and the message i wanted to carry over was that this Bok team is a different kettle of fish when they have desire to win.

But sadly these posts have the nack to deliever some points that just need to be responded to.

The posters such as our friend Cymroglan who believes the boks can't score tries are living in a bubble and perhaps i shouldn't respond to comments like that. But the thing is I feel obliged to help them in the right direction. Otherwise he is going to build this bubble of comfort that we won't be able to challenge his team unless we kick.

As I said earlier today, because we don't play rugby like Australia and New Zealand there is this false sense of opinion that we don't score tries in some opinions can't score tries. I don't want to get into detail as I said it all earlier, but the fact is we score the second most tries per quarterfinal, the third most tries per semi final and only in finals have we not scored tries.

Maybe I am wasting my time, let them believe what they want to. We'll have a great post match discussion in 17 days.

Hunger and a purposeful direction will get the Boks further than the previous inaptitude they were showing.

The Div is right !! the object of our game is to get into the oppo half and score points . Preferably of morne's right boot but we'll take the occasional try if its on offer.

on a different note Jaque Fourie is a defensive mastermind!!! i never really understood why coaches rated him so highly in defence until i saw the last two games. he;s grabbed try saving intercepts ,rushed out of the line at precisly the right moments to shut out certain tries and he reads the game brilliantly!

Yes bullsbok but how often has it happened lately?
And it alsp seems to rely on opposition also not scoring tries and SA not scoring tries.
Bit simplistic a formula dont you think?
I mean its not as if opp. teams dont know about it nor cant do anything about it.
Winning all 3 knockouts using that as a gameplan sure is a big ask.

The springboks have had the same gameplan for years . Its won them two world cups. Everyone knows what they're going to do but funny enough they cant seem to stop it when it matters most .

emack2 wrote:
By the way Wales ,Scrum apart had there hand s full versus Argentina,they just couldn`t finish.Morne Steyn or Hernandez kicking for Argentina wales would have lost.

they couldnt finish? erm if you look at the first 2 tries you can see how wales turned something out of a poor scrum in the first case and tbh nothing in the second case- they had their hands full from a powerful team and yet won the match comfortably- also expect to see a much more potent back row which will cause S.A trouble at the break down

Im sure Spies, Schalla and Brussow will gladly return the favour

Agree with Bullsbok I look at the loosies of both teams and I see nothing but Bok domination.

Fair enough bullsbok. It has.
If it does again then that would be quite something.
Looking forward to seeing how they go here.
This very simplistic approach has its obvious benefits. Its a simple pattern so can be perfected easier than other styles and doesnt rely on a lot of attacking skill.
It does require huge defence as last two years many tries have gone through SA.
But after last week SA have showed theyll be more than competitive so theyre right back up there as the no.1 threat.
Id rather play oz eng or france than SA in a final if we get there.
If we dont i think SA will win it again.