Why has Kidney dropped O'Leary and Fitzy?

I'm very disappointed by the crazy decision to drop O'Leary. Admittedly his performance against France was dire, but I think dropping him was a rash call from Kidney. It was only ONE match. O'Leary should at least travel to the World Cup as a third option. He has experience and potential. He just needs to kick less. Helping O'Leary to improve his game would be preferable to dropping him from the squad!

Even more rash is the inclusion of a 22 year old with just one international cap and only 13 club appearances. Even if Kidney was right in dropping O'Leary, surely it would be better to take Stringer than Murray. Stringer has oodles of experience (98 caps for Ireland, Heineken Cups, a Grand Slam etc.) Murray will be filling the role of spare part and is unlikely to feature. However, should Ireland need to use their third choice scrum half i.e. the spare part, surely we'd all have more confidence in Stringer than Murray. Or even Stringer than Isaac Boss! Reddan, O'Leary and Stringer should travel to New Zealand.

I am also bemused as to why Kidney has dropped Fitzgerald. He did play badly against France in Bordeaux but we all know what an absolutely brilliant player he can be. Also, I don't understand the logic behind dropping Fitzgerald and keeping Kearney! Kearney hasn't played for months and showed poor form even when he was playing before his injury. Totally puzzling.

I still can't forgive Kidney for never picking James Downey. Yes he doesn't play in Ireland but does anyone care if he contributes to some Irish victories? No. Downey is a far better player than Gordon D'Arcy or Paddy Wallace. Anyway, last time I checked Sale is in England and Swansea is in Wales.

Otherwise the squad is good, if not obvious. Let's just pray we don't get many injuries on Saturday.

because they have not played well enough over the last 6months. they were given a chance and didnt do it in the warm up games. fitzy did some good things and some bad things.

no quibbles with either omission

Is this just a reaction to the lack of anger on the squad thread?

Isaac Boss is a lucky boy - he has only played about 20 mins of international rugby since 2007.

He is the bolter!

Standulstermen wrote:Is this just a reaction to the lack of anger on the squad thread?

I would have thought they would be busy sharpening the knives for:

1. Earls
2. ROG
3. Leamy
4. Paddy Wallace

I've Paddy Wallace 4th in the pecking order as he is unlikely to start any games

Kidney has got it right. Thats a fair point Sin re. Boss but i think it was more a case of ToL playing himself off the plane. I think both RoG and Wallace have looked in good nick as has leamy for what will essentially be our 5th backrow spot.

Earls was shocking but a has been said he has a lot of credit built up. Needs a good game to keep his starting place but practically a cert for the 22 for me.

Ok. I'll bite.

TOL. Poor season with Munster interupted by injury too. Played with Ireland in the 6N and was fair from his best. Even when fit after the 6N Murray had ursurped his place (and that of Stringer too, so I think that takes care of that side road)

In the ML Final against leinster and incumbant Irish SH, he was the better of the two Sh's by some distance. In the 20 Mins against France he looked at least equally as good as Redeen and sharper too, Eoin was blowing hard after 30 mins never mind an hour, but that was match fitness which will come to him rather than him be unfit.

Boss interchanged with Redden all season at Leinster (who won that minor Europena Trophy....) Way more consistant that TOL this season and is probably playing his best rugby ever right now.

Fitzy. Dreadful pretty much all season. Given the most time of any marginal player to prove himself and failed. Great run to set up Ireland's 2nd try on Saturday, but too littel too late and still managed to make a coupel of mistakes in that time.

As for your Dwoney rant, well, as you said yourself, you cannot forgive him and are, for some bizarre reason to any one who watched TOL this season, using his ommision to further grind your axe.

Downey provides direct ball through hard running. That is all. I am not D'Arcy's biggest fan by any stretch, but to argue that he is inferior to Downey is just nonsense. When playing at 90% of his best he is light years ahead of JD at his peak.

Oh, not too mention to fact that Darcy and BOD have a the world record partnership in international appearances. You cannot buy that understanding.

Oh and what downey doesnt offer that P Wallace does? A kickig game. A pasing game. Cover at 10. All of those are 'emergency break glass' but there is no way I'd be heading south without a guy who can actually play 10 to cover ROG & Sexton. Bear in mind, one gets food poisoning before a game and misses the 22 and then the other gets a dead leg after 5 mins against Oz. Do you really want Earls, mcfadden, BOD, D'Arcy or G Murphy at 10?! Really?! No I'll take the guy with about 50 provincial and a dozen Int caps thank you very much*

Figures rounded from memory, more than happy to be corrected and I accept that a few of those caps will be 6 or 7 mins not an hour but ti think my point has been made.

I am a northampton fan, Downey is a quality player. Yes he runs hard but nigh on every country has a big hard running inside centre!

Actually debaters, Paddy Wallace has over 150 provincial caps and 25 international, or something like that. I was at the game where he made his 150th Ulster appearance last season. Many of those have been at fullback and outhalf- even a few at outside centre- only since 2008 has he got extended time at 12!

I personally will never understand the Downey claims. He only plays one kind of game. You have to build the backline around that game. And it's not even effective against organised defences. I remember sitting and being baffled at the praise he had gotten when i saw him live in the HC quarter-final. Did their pack eventually overwhelm us? Yep. Did their centres ever really create anything for their back three? Nope. Just targets for the pack. Doesn't really suit Ireland whose attacking game will only be successful if we can create space for our back three.

Wallace is a good option because he has the variety of skills to fit into pretty much any gameplan, I think thats why coaches prize him so much higher than casual observers.

As for D'Arcy, much more versatile and experienced player. But one who is has been disappointing for Ireland. He can pass, my problem is his option taking. On form, his ability to squirm through defences is very important for us. He's a frustrating player when he's off form but he's much harder to stop when he's on form than any other 12 we have.

It's an interesting shoot-out between these two. Neither has defiantly grabbed the jersey in a way that brooks no opposition. I wish we had a Jean de Villiers or Ma'a Nonu to call on, but lets not kid ourselves about their real potential alternatives. I don't think we have anyone better.

I am no fan of Paddy Wallace.... At all. But I would take him ahead of Downey because he can do more than one thing. (ie. run straight at the nearest player and try to stay on his feet)

Tol and Fitz did not have the form. Kidney should be praised for taking the big decisions rather than being conservative. (Even if I did find Luke hard to take)

They had every chance to prove themselves and didn't.

The big hard running centre game only works up to a point. Downey is the equivalent of Graeme Morrison and no disrespect to the guy i dont want that to be the road Ireland go down.

Notch, I know he has the 150 caps, but I was thinking he hasnt spent all that time at 10.

strangely enough i think one big hard running strong centre is the route to go down given the stregnth of blitz defences at the moment. certainly has not done france, nz, wales etc any harm. drico played some of his best rugby off maggs and hendo a few years back

darcy and drico being so alike was a strength when they were at the peak of their powers. however now that they have lost a bit in terms of acceleration they are simply two alike in size playing style and build. drico is just a better more consistent version. our flat alignment and the centres receiving the ball static is also an issue. the fast direct centre i think will be bowe once we give it a try post wc

we may well create space for our back 3 by taking the ball hard and straight off first phase as opposed to shovelling the thing out to them with no dummy runners or invention when they are shunted into touch so so easily

debaters1 wrote:

Boss interchanged with Redden all season at Leinster (who won that minor Europena Trophy....) Way more consistant that TOL this season and is probably playing his best rugby ever right now.

eh, Luke STARTED for that team. He has actually improved since then.

And Boss missed the Magners Final through injury. He has only been tested with a few minutes against Scotland. Pretty harsh on both O'Leary & Luke who had to audition.

dublin_dave wrote:strangely enough i think one big hard running strong centre is the route to go down given the stregnth of blitz defences at the moment. certainly has not done france, nz, wales etc any harm. drico played some of his best rugby off maggs and hendo a few years back

darcy and drico being so alike was a strength when they were at the peak of their powers. however now that they have lost a bit in terms of acceleration they are simply two alike in size playing style and build. drico is just a better more consistent version. our flat alignment and the centres receiving the ball static is also an issue. the fast direct centre i think will be bowe once we give it a try post wc

we may well create space for our back 3 by taking the ball hard and straight off first phase as opposed to shovelling the thing out to them with no dummy runners or invention when they are shunted into touch so so easily

NZ have Nonu who whilst being a big guy isnt a crash ball centre. Whilst he was he was out of favour until such times as he developed his game. France's 12 is Mermoz who isnt massive. Wales have Roberts and while i rate the guy if all you threaten (thinking Downey here, not roberts) is the crash ball you will find that guys like Kaino, Burger, Dusatoir are sitting waiting for you.

[quote="dublin_dave"]strangely enough i think one big hard running strong centre is the route to go down given the stregnth of blitz defences at the moment. certainly has not done france, nz, wales etc any harm. drico played some of his best rugby off maggs and hendo a few years back

darcy and drico being so alike was a strength when they were at the peak of their powers. however now that they have lost a bit in terms of acceleration they are simply two alike in size playing style and build. drico is just a better more consistent version. our flat alignment and the centres receiving the ball static is also an issue. the fast direct centre i think will be bowe once we give it a try post wc

we may well create space for our back 3 by taking the ball hard and straight off first phase as opposed to shovelling the thing out to them with no dummy runners or invention when they are shunted into touch so so easily[/quote

Downey should probaly have been in the squad for the warm-ups, he offers something very different to what we have and should have been given a chance to see what he would add. Not international standard imo but then again he hasn't had the chance to prove either way.

I agree with what you said there adout a player like Bowe post wc I think BOD should move to 12 and Bowe or Earls or whoever else is given a go at 13 to play there or it maybe being rotated like our back 3. Maybe even Downey being tryed!

Also if you think our centers are bad look at the England's!!

... Downey was tried and unsurprisingly didn't impress.

[quote="The Great Aukster"]... Downey was tried and unsurprisingly didn't impress.[/quote]

Was he? When?

'A' internationals most likely though i cant recall exactly when.

[quote="Standulstermen"]'A' internationals most likely though i cant recall exactly when.[/quote]

Cheers

We would have to have one hell of an injury problem for him to start a meaningfull match at 13.

If we were going down that road then select someone like spence who is physically great and more athletic than downey. Its not where we should look to though.

Downey was at the Churchill Cup in 2009 with the present coaching team.

Downey was at the 09 Churchill Cup and started against Georgia, but didn't impress and Keith Matthews was preferred in the final. Amazing how many of that team are now in the RWC squad.

IMO having a big man running straight at 12 is fine for teams who don't have big ball carriers in the forwards. Ireland have plenty of those and what they need is someone at 12 who can run into the half gaps created. That needs someone with acceleration and BOD and D'Arcy have both lost that edge. Hence it is a fair call to suggest someone like Spence could have a future in the centre.

Cant wait for the debates on who should play at 12 and 13 on here a year or so after the WC

It may sound a bit strange but I dont think Oleary would have thrown such a loose pass in a competitive 6 nations game - This was a warm up and players have been encouraged to play with a bit more freedom - if it had come off and set a backline move flowing out of defence it would have been brilliance. If he had taken the field to play a tight controlled game just doing the basics he would probably now be on the plane. Fine lines indeed, although IMO he should not have been considered in the first place due to his form over the past 2 years.