Ireland's World Cup Build Up

3 test matches and 3 defeats suggests Ireland's World Cup build up is not going well.

A.
As well as bad results, the performances haven't been great either. It's clear we have nobody we can rely on in the scrum to be backup tighthead if anything happens to Ross. O'Driscoll and D'arcy looked poor against France, and there is no standout backup for either. The lineout was dreadful in the first match against France. It was better in the second but the French weren't putting it under as much pressure, and the Irish lineout is certainly not the weapon it used to be. There is no penetration from the backline. They are just shuffling the ball to the wing and then kicking it away. It is not even very clear from watching them what style of rugby they are trying to play. It's looking like Ireland will have a bad World Cup. Again.

B.
These games have been really used as warmups by Declan Kidney. They've been giving gametime to all thirty squad members, to ensure they are all match fit for the World Cup. There was quite a large number of players returning from injury and getting them back to fitness was a priority. This strategy of getting real game time to all 30 squad members is a wise one and should pay off at the World Cup, where the Irish might start the tournament a little bit sharper than the other European teams. We will see much better rugby from Ireland when they have a settled best 15 for the big matches at the World Cup, and they'll be executing coherent game plans, rather than just getting everyone up to test match speed, which is what they've been doing so far.


So which is it? A or B?

I'm more inclined to go for B.Our results have been poor but the performances have not been as bad as it's being made out.

I think back to the 6 nations and the first 4 games when we couldn't string 3 passes together without knocking on or a pass going to ground and this hasn't been the case so far.We have lacked penetration but the ball handling has been much improved and I don't think it will take much to rectify the problems.

One area of concern is we are losing the ball in contact a little more than I'd like,we'll have to wait and see if that improves.

It's B. Disarray is a strong word.
We'll see how they do tomorrow though I guess.

Definitely need more penetration at breaking the line that is one of my biggest worries after the weekend.

We are either in complete denial like last world cup believing that things will come good or its different this time cause in Deccie we trust and these are just warm up games. Im going for the latter but only time will tell.

I'd be inclined to say its the second one. There is at least ONE good performance in this Irish team. Whether it comes against England, USA, Australia or Italy I'm not sure. A second string will play against Russia.

But for me the warm up games have been very demanding, highly competitive and are a tournament in themselves where we have learnt from each match.

In previous years they were an unwelcome distraction playing weak teams and not caring how we did once there were no injuries.

Out of sorts, but not disarray, I'd say. Need a win to steady the ship, rather than paper over cracks.

C - neither

I haven't a clue. Even if they lose tomorrow it'd be difficult to tell.

I'd prefer to be in England's shoes that Ireland's considering their respective groups though. They seem more like three extra warm-ups (none of which are guaranteed) but at least they haven't an appalling SH record. Poor - but not appalling.

Would you all still go for B following the game against England? I'm thinking its a combination of both, but I hope to god Kidney and co have a set of tactics ready for the WC, as I sure as hell haven't seen anything relating to a gameplan in the last month!

Didnt see this before but for my money we are much closer to A than B. I still see us getting through the group and losing to SA but i dont think we will see progress beyond that.

Despite my concerns, I'd say the answer is much closer than B than A. Not that I'm expecting a great World Cup, but seldom are teams judged by their warm-up games. I don't think you can technically be in disarray before the tournament begins. Seems a bit weird to be honest. If it was four Six Nations or AI games we'd lost on the bounce I'd be furious.

We'll be judged on our next four games, not our last four. Signs are exceptionally worrying. Preparation has been poor. But we've seen teams play shoite in warm-ups/pre-season and turn it around before.

Holding my judgement. If we do succeed, it will be through sheer hard work and will to win because we have a very poor backline playbook.

I find it difficult to believe we'll play as bad in the World Cup. Our back play especially, will surely be better. It couldn't be worse. But we seem to be to far away from the level of Australia. I don't think we can beat them in the second game, after seeing these warm ups.

I haven't given up hope on a semi final yet though. I still think we'll beat Italy. It will probably be South Africa in the quarters. They don't look near their best either, and we have experience of beating them. Maybe as the tournament goes on our performance levels will rise to a much higher standard. England did it last time and reached the final.

Kidney has said that apparently they haven't given away a lot of stuff.

It would want to be a hell of a lot and even then that doesn't excuse, at times a dodgey lineout, poor contact area work, not great at the breakdown and all in all quite rudderless.

I think when our best team is out we'll be tougher to beat.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I haven't given up hope on a semi final yet though. I still think we'll beat Italy. It will probably be South Africa in the quarters. They don't look near their best either, and we have experience of beating them. Maybe as the tournament goes on our performance levels will rise to a much higher standard. England did it last time and reached the final.

Which part of the springboks are you referring too?

The B team that went to play Oz and NZ?

or the rusty team that played against Oz and NZ?

You have experience of beating us at home.

For me, I have to say it is A - disarray. Made up my mind after watching the England Ireland match. Just don't see how these friendly, warm up, hiding player games which deliver nothing in terms of combinations is going to help the NH sides. They should be picking their best or near best sides every week and just getting all the combinations worked over and set. Ireland have the Wallabies in the game after next which is too soon for them to be competitive - they have wasted their 4 week prep. In fact Italy would fancy their chances against them in pool C.

Biltong, I know a full strength South Africa in World Cup mode will be much better than anything they've shown so far and they would likely beat Ireland. But I don't have a crystal ball. I can only deal in the present. And South Africa haven't been brilliant recently. You can talk about B teams and rustiness, but we can say exactly the same thing.

We have experience of beating South Africa at home. We haven't played you away in a long time, so most of this Irish team have more experience of beating South Africa than losing to them. They won't be at any psychological disadvantage. Anyway, all I'm saying is that Ireland beating South Africa is more likely than Ireland beating Australia.

Seeing as wallace is now out (i feel so sorry for the man and hope we shall see him in green again someday) and we are left with the option of playing Jennings at 7 and leaving out Ferris or O'Brien or else playing all three big men - Would anyone think it could be an idea to try Heaslip at 7 and O'Brien at 8. Heaslip for me is a great grappler and a lot better than O'Brien on the floor, and O'Brien's ball carrying is something we are in dire need of based on the warm up games. Could play to each players strenghts.....

Does anyone know if Heaslip has played 7 before?

Feckless Rogue wrote:Biltong, I know a full strength South Africa in World Cup mode will be much better than anything they've shown so far and they would likely beat Ireland. But I don't have a crystal ball. I can only deal in the present. And South Africa haven't been brilliant recently. You can talk about B teams and rustiness, but we can say exactly the same thing.

We have experience of beating South Africa at home. We haven't played you away in a long time, so most of this Irish team have more experience of beating South Africa than losing to them. They won't be at any psychological disadvantage. Anyway, all I'm saying is that Ireland beating South Africa is more likely than Ireland beating Australia.

Feckless, I think you guys are in for a surprise.

since the last world cup it is one win each. If you go back since the previous world cup it is another 2 wins each. I still stand by my point Ireland is competitive against us in Ireland, but has not yet shown anything away from home.

Agreed you haven't played us away from home for so long that those statistics are hardly relevant. No matter how much positives the team take out of the competitiveness at home, they still know what the facts are away from home.

They will have belief yes, but there will also be doubt. Talking about our rustiness, we lost to australia by 5 and to a B new zealand team with over 400 caps we won by 13. Do you honestly believe Ireland would have competed that well against them?

All I am saying is we are being under estimated, and when losing against the two best teams in the world, make people beleive we are vulnerable, well we'll see.

Any chance we can change our votes

You're scarce Stag.

You mean in terms of posting or my attitude is rare?

"All I am saying is we are being under estimated, and when losing against the two best teams in the world, make people beleive we are vulnerable, well we'll see."

+1

I think we are in much poorer nick than the saffas.
I really hope Kidney and co have been holding a lot back or our players suddenly get the finger out.

red_stag wrote:You mean in terms of posting or my attitude is rare?

Posting

Oh yea I've been in Dublin at the weekend. Rugby World Cup is starting soon so I am busy busy busy at work. Also I was up in Dublin all weekend with for Ire v Eng.

Biltong just our of interest, let's say SA and Ireland were to play in the 1/4 final in New Zealand and let's say the game was this week, what do you think the score would be?

A bit of both A & B i think.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Biltong just our of interest, let's say SA and Ireland were to play in the 1/4 final in New Zealand and let's say the game was this week, what do you think the score would be?

To predict a score will be near foolish.

What I will say to you is our forward pack that will be first choice will be very mobile, strong in the scrums (unless PDV put smit on prop) and with Burger, Alberts and Brussow aided by Bismarck and Beast we will hunt the breakdwon very effectively and physically. Our Line outs will be solid, our backline will not be exciting as we all know, but with the renewed energy that Habana has shown he will pounce on every available ball. Hopefully Lambie will be fullback and if he is, your defensive lines will be tested as he is a game breaker. Jaque fourie is in serious form and i know people will say it is because I am a springbok supporter, but for me the best 13 in world rugby.

On defence against Ireland i am not concerned. It is only on attack and Jean de villiers, he hasn't got any creativity, if he doesn't break the line we stagnate.

Ireland haven't played to their potential and I expect a better showing at the next World Cup. However, I don't think they can turn it around in time to beat Australia, which does mean it would probably come down to an Ireland Vs South Africa quarter-final.

If you asked me to gaze into my crystal ball I'd say a quarter-final exit for Ireland is the most likely, but I've been wrong before.

Yeah, we'd be massive underdogs in the quarters. Seems to be the only time when we perform, paradoxically.

The only area of the field I can think of, where we'd have an advantage would be in the back and possibly the backrow. Depends on how Ferris-SOB-Heaslip get on I guess.

Also POC seems to be gearing up nicely but DOC really doesn't seem to be

Just for once I'd love to see O'Connell do more with ball in hand than make a metre or two and set up a clean platform.

He should be bettering himself to a level where he can use his reputation to draw in several defenders but then pass out of or before the tackle.

Come on, no-one in the Ireland team is under instructions to pass out of or before the tackle. We just don't do that. It's incredibly annoying.

Ferris did it on Saturday.

I was just reading the sports sections of papers. Here's some cheerful quotes.

"Ireland are on the way to the Rugby World Cup in an appalling state of unpreparedness"

"No more safety nets for team hobbling towards disaster"

"Decent rugby men, who played at high levels of the sport, wondered on Saturday evening whether this was 2007 all over again"

"No sign of silver lining to Ireland's dark cloud"

"Ireland look dazed and confused"

"Fanciful notions of a route into the business end of the tournament have long since been dispelled"

"About the only positive aspect in the fall-out of this latest setback was Ireland don’t have another game this week"

"Ireland stumble on to the plane"

Not exactly very positive from Ireland's rugby pundits is it? Oh dear. I'm now reduced to hoping some of the old underdog fury will come from within the players. Because there is absolutely nothing coming from this coaching team at the moment it seems.

red_stag wrote:Ferris did it on Saturday.

Drop him! It's just not Gaffeny-ball

Seriously though, maybe we do it a handful of times in a match. Our gameplan seems to be entirely dependent on hitting the rucks quickly, getting quick ball, repeating... putting phases together at an intensity the opposition can't cope with. Very hard to pull off 80 minutes at that intensity, especially if the other side is willing to bend the rules to slow you down. If we get disrupted at the breakdown, slowed down, and can't establish a rhythm there is very little chance of us hurting sides. Which is what's been happening.

notch - think you have our game plan spot on although it is mighty hard to work out at times.

may explain why deccie persisted with TOL for so long. Our tries against France and Scotland in the last 6 nations came from going through phase after phase and wearing them down to the extent that they ran out of bodies and tol's strength was an asset in terms of bludgeoning our way over the line. may also explain our obsession with pods of forwards walking at defenses in the opp 22.

Stag,I don't think Paul O'Connell has good enough hands to pass it that far. The longest pass I've seen him make was the one to Heaslip in the France match in 09. That was a pretty shocking pass!

Thomond he doesn't but nobody is born with great handling. This is a skill that can be learnt. It would never be his main skill but he is predictable and ineffective in attack.

Then why give him the ball? I've never understood why he gets it,it's not like he makes huge ground anyway.

He has excellent ball retention. Even on the back foot he seems to be able to set up a clean platform. I think he's better without the ball than with it.

POC doesn't make much ground because he doesn't try to. I understand he's there to set up secure ball, but everyone else knows it as well, it's a wasted phase and all too frequently behind the gainline.

I don't blame POC for that, though. In fact I don't blame any one player for the stultifyingly boring game we're playing at the moment. It's everyones fault.

The final minutes of the England game said it all. Ireland running down the clock for England. We don't know how to unlock defensive lines at the moment, we're looking for contact instead of gaps.

The simple act of fixing a player is alien to us. I'm astounded by it really. Needless skip passing too.

The height of our imagination at the moment is the now predictable Gaffney Loop and the ploy of using Andrew Trimble as first receiver.

We're pretty much where Wales were a season or so ago.

I think Kidney is lulling the world and the ozzies into a false sense of security so they will defend in close and then fan out to close off our now predictable drift across field but then BAM!! a pass out the back by Drico and Tommy Bowe is through the unsuspecting gap with a beautiful angled run!! Pop pass to Sean O'Brien and we are through for a try under the posts!! Boop Boop we are back. I hope. I really do hope.

red_stag wrote:The simple act of fixing a player is alien to us. I'm astounded by it really. Needless skip passing too.

The height of our imagination at the moment is the now predictable Gaffney Loop and the ploy of using Andrew Trimble as first receiver.

it's frighteningly predictable. If we, the fans, know exactly the extent of our attacking prowess then we won't surprise anyone in this era of video analysis.

Like you, I am utterly bemused by how we never commit defenders. Our attacking play is really criminally bad. Beyond comprehension.

Lulling the opposition into a false sense of security? I often find myself hoping this when a team I support are playing badly. It never turns out to be true.

I can't help but believe we have some strike moves off first phase that we haven't used in the warm-ups but that doesn't change the fact most of our players are doing the basic nuts and bolts of attacking exceptionally poorly.

According to Kidney that's the case, he was quoted in the Independent as saying:

"There are a few variations we know we have to bring in, we couldn't show everything,"

But to be honest that's not good enough.

Yeah, like I say, first phase moves. But set moves only get you so far. We are awful at creating anything with an element of spontaneity because we don't do the basics well.

I'd say we are far more concerned than the coaches and players, who by all indications view these as glorified pre-season friendlies, but it's the IRFUs mistake to think we could play warm-up games at home against France and England and have the public view them as anything less than full test matches.

My brother was saying the other day, he'd rather see us flop in the World Cup than see us lose our home record against England. Not losing to England at home since 2003 meant a hell of a lot to a lot of fans. Losing that record makes me furious. If you want a warm-up, a little hit out for match fitness and don't worry about the result, ffs don't have it at home against England because that is never going to be viewed as anything but a full test match by fans.

I'm nearly certain we'll improve in the RWC in all departments, I'm just incredibly disappointed that we view these four test matches so casually. There were rankings points on offer here; these were full internationals. Their loss means a hell of a lot to the fans.

I consider them glorified pre-season friendlies. I'm not worked up about our continued capitulation in the face of French teams, and it doesn't bother me that England finally broke their Dublin-duck.

It does bother me that we look lifeless, clueless, lacking all invention and everyone is waiting for someone else to come up with the goods. It bothers me that the team talked about being angry after each match because they expect better of themselves, but were unable to raise their game. That's basics.