England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

Here we go again.....

Argentina have 11 players from the prem so they'll have the same fitness issues with to compensate for.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Argentina have 11 players from the prem so they'll have the same fitness issues with to compensate for.

You are so right. Clearly why they lost to the Boks. Their Premiership players were so slothful...

I like using the word slothful.

That's the problem right there. England are at a canter.

Other teams are sprinting at warp speed in comparison.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Wales team announced on our thread.

I think Borthwick might be looking for a new job after the world cup. The RFU's expectations are quite high. He is a good coach and England have a host of good players but it doesn't seem like he can evolve. Gatland and Jones didn't evolve either. I hope Wales has a new coach after the world cup.

Didn't realise the Lions would be looking for their coach as early as that!

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales team announced on our thread.

I think Borthwick might be looking for a new job after the world cup. The RFU's expectations are quite high. He is a good coach and England have a host of good players but it doesn't seem like he can evolve. Gatland and Jones didn't evolve either. I hope Wales has a new coach after the world cup.

Borthwick has barely got his feet under the desk and his coaching team won't be complete until after the world cup. There's no chance the RFU sack him that early having paid to replace Eddie and get Borthwick out of Leicester early (including some pathetic bully boy tactics to avoid paying which failed).

I'd expect Borthwick to get another full season after the World Cup to show that this coaching set up can move things forward.

Who else from Leicester is coming into the coaching team like? I thought we were pretty much there now?

It's a decent Wales team. Listened to a chunk of the podcast interview and Borthwicks right in saying the uncertainty got to some of the players last week. Just about combos and tactics this week. Doesn't matter if we lose again as long as we play as well as last game and continue to develop.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Argentina have 11 players from the prem so they'll have the same fitness issues with to compensate for.

You are so right.  Clearly why they lost to the Boks.  Their Premiership players were so slothful...

I like using the word slothful.

Slothful is a great word. Fun yet descriptive.

A serious note with the Pumas Prem based players though, as I was looking at that over the RC and their squad announcement for this reason.

Alemanno has been in and out of the side. Whereas previously he's been locked in to run their set-piece. With Gonzalez (he's an absolutely brilliant player) having come through at flanker they may well use Kremer or Petti at lock again in the RWC instead. Then they blooded Brive project Paulos in the RC, who hasn't made the RWC.

Moroni has been on the bench more than starting. Whilst Falcons teammate Orlando has actually missed out on the RWC squad entirely.

So not all rosy for the significant Argentine contingent now in the Prem.

My argument re the Prem's obvious dive in standard isn't that England no longer have any players fit enough for international rugby either. I've never seen Curry at international level and thought he was short of fitness for instance. Some player are so talented that they can break through in any system. Others just work incredibly hard as individuals.

I do think there's a clear trend of younger players looking brilliant in the Premiership then being startling off the physicality and pace of international rugby though. Some such as Stuart have developed within the England squad and now looks much better. I'm actually hoping he can be starting at the RWC. Others such as Dombrandt. Well, let's just say he hasn't quite looked fit enough.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who else from Leicester is coming into the coaching team like? I thought we were pretty much there now?

The Tigers talent mine has been tapped (for now), previous SA attack coach now SA defence coach Felix Jones is arriving after the world cup. Presumably to work on our attack.

I missed that. Huge shoes for him to step into if that's the case, but SA attack has always been blistering and another voice in the brain trust can only be good.

and England have a host of good players

Do they really tho? which of their players would get into the French. SA or Scottish teams? None of the backs would get into Scotland team. Maybe a couple of tight five forwards

England have huge depth but at the top no real exceptional players IMO.

Wales blending experience and youth similar to their selection for the first warmup.

On balance I'd say it's slightly stronger than last weekend. Stronger in the front row, similar quality in second row and probably a tad weaker in the back row. Reffell and Plumtree are clearly talents but I think Morgan and Wainwright are terrific players. In the backs it's similar quality halfbacks though Williams is more experienced than Costelow. Slightly weaker in the centre for me as I rate North at 13. I'd say stronger in the back three. No LRZ for express pace but Adams is Wales' best winger and Sanjay is a fantastic player if he's fully fit.

1.Smith 2.Lake 3.Francis 4.Rowlands 5.Beard 6.Wainwright 7.Morgan 8.Faletau
9.Williams 10.Biggar 11.Adams 12.??? 13.North 14.LRZ 15.Williams

16.Dee 17.Thomas 18.Lewis 19.Jenkins 20.Reffell 21.Davies 22.Williams 23.Grady

Wales fans... Would that be a reasonably guess at a RWC 23 from Gatland? I've no real idea where Gats will go at 12. SH and hooker seem to have 3 close options in the squad.

I think it's a stronger team from them too. I'm on tenterhooks in what our back 5 look like. It's probably Lawes , Willis, Earl in some sort of combo?

TJ wrote:

and England have a host of good players

Do they really tho?  which of their players would get into the French. SA or Scottish teams?  None of the backs would get into Scotland team. Maybe a couple of tight five forwards

England have huge depth but at the top no real exceptional players IMO.

You almost had me there.....French (yea not many)......SA (yea again, not many).......Scotland (erm, say what! )

TJ wrote:

and England have a host of good players

Do they really tho?  which of their players would get into the French. SA or Scottish teams?  None of the backs would get into Scotland team. Maybe a couple of tight five forwards

England have huge depth but at the top no real exceptional players IMO.

You've got English players in your backline!

Go on then Sarge - which England players do you think would merit a place in the Scotland team.    I'll accept a prop or two and perhaps a second row.

How many calcutta cups is it now?

TJ wrote:Go on then Sarge - which England players do you think would merit a place in the Scotland team.    I'll accept a prop or two and perhaps a second row.

How many calcutta cups is it now?

Yes but thats YOUR world cup final....Anybody but England. etc etc...my mams a Weegie i know what its like.

Geordie wrote:

TJ wrote:Go on then Sarge - which England players do you think would merit a place in the Scotland team.    I'll accept a prop or two and perhaps a second row.

How many calcutta cups is it now?

Yes but thats YOUR world cup final....Anybody but England. etc etc...my mams a Weegie i know what its like.

Bit unfair. Scotlands world cup final this year is making the knock outs.

TJ wrote:None of the backs would get into Scotland team. Maybe a couple of tight five forwards

That's where it gets entirely subjective though, TJ.

I held an Edinburgh season ticket for a few years and adore watching Darcy play but I'd pick Watson over him every day. Darcy is glorious fun but he has been successfully targeted by good sides for a reason.

I'd also take Steward over Kinghorn. I really rate Kinghorn as a 15 and have argued he should play there for a while. But I'd take Steward for his flaws.

Tom Curry would walk into the Scotland flanks alongside Ritchie. Itoje even with his form dip would walk into the second row ahead of Scotland's options. Being realistic, if Townsend was offered those two they get picked in a heartbeat. It's getting silly to pretend otherwise.

I actually played at Heriots when George Turner was there. He's a brilliant bloke and had a fantastic Six Nations. In a choice between George or Turner I'd still take Jamie George regardless of recent form though. He's a double Lions tourist for a reason.

1.Schoeman 2.George 3.Meh 4.Itoje 5.Gray 6.Ritchie 7.Curry 8.Dempsey
9.White 10.Farrell 11.Duhan 12.Tuipulotu 13.Jones 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Turner 17.Genge 18.Meh 19.Lawes 20.Willis/Darge/Ludlam 21.JvP 22.Russell 23.Kinghorn

I honestly think the TH options are much of a muchness so just put meh. Lots of players with upsides and downsides. Zander is talented but sadly has two braincells fighting to get into third place. Sinckler has fallen off. Stuart has talent but needs to show it consistently. Coley and WP are, well, old.

The second rows after Itoje are a bit similar to TH for me. Gray and GG have been in good form recently. Whilst Chessum and Martin are really strong talents for England. Pretty close calls.

After Curry and Ritchie I again think the flankers have several very close players. I haven't put Mish there as, sadly, injuries have caught up with one of my favourite ever players.

If I had to pick a composite side it'd probably be that. Others would likely scream at me in a pub for rating Farrell over Russell. It's completely subjective at that point though. And can be done with most sides. Hence why this exercise is futile.

For instance. How many Scotland players would I put into the Boks 23? With Pollard injured Russell would get in. Ritchie but only if Kolisi doesn't recover. Maybe Duhan over Mapimpi. Schoeman over Nyakane but I think Kitshoff is slightly better than both. Possibly Jones instead of de Allende as a bodge job at 13 with Am injured. So we've got three that are dependent on injury. Schoeman and a maybe in Duhan. Who are somewhat amusingly both Saffas. Yet, it wouldn't amaze me if Scotland beat the Boks a the RWC with them potentially missing Pollard, Am, Lood and Kolisi.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a decent Wales team. Listened to a chunk of the podcast interview and Borthwicks right in saying the uncertainty got to some of the players last week. Just about combos and tactics this week. Doesn't matter if we lose again as long as we play as well as last game and continue to develop.

What?!

Play as well as last game? The one last Saturday against Wales? England were rank, really really bad.

mm - 7.5 has clearly been on the wind up for several days now mate.

To be fair TJ, most of your team isn't even Scottish

You always tend to rate your own players higher. I look at the flip and I can't think of many players past your South African winger who would improve the England side.

king_carlos wrote:mm - 7.5 has clearly been on the wind up for several days now mate.

Yes I'm aware of that but there are wind ups and there is insanity....

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:mm - 7.5 has clearly been on the wind up for several days now mate.

Yes I'm aware of that but there are wind ups and there is insanity....

Eh? There's no wind up going on unless you thinking Borthwick is trying to wum? Our tactics were there we created loads of opportunities bar the final pass as he says in the podcast with Chris Jones and ugo. Even Care said (I think the team but he may have been speaking for himself) that they thought they should have gone in 10 points up at least at half time then they would have won. Fine margins but we're a gnats testicle off.

Some news from the Torygraph who keep getting their England rugby stuff right. Jonny Hill, Porter and May are apparently still with the training group. So presumably they are on the standby list. Tom Willis was mentioned in The Times article that broke the squad news as also being on that.

Hill is set to feature against Wales. Ribbans is on his standdown period after his HIA and apparently Chessum is back in full training but wont feature this weekend.

Marchant and Manu both sat out parts of training earlier in the week reportedly. Hence Porter.

As the article rightly points out it's common for players outside the final RWC squads to feature in warmups after the squad announcement though. Marchant, Kvesic and Ewels all doing so in 2019.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Frugby-union%2F2023%2F08%2F08%2Fbilly-vunipola-interview-steve-borthwick-england-disrespect%2F

Another article there where Billy addresses his falling out with Borthwick and why he was left out of the Six Nations squad. Basically, SB told him he didn't play well enough in the AIs and needed to get fitter.

The rift is apparently after Vunipola made out of line comments in front of a group of players during the 2019 RWC camps.

Hill Porter and May.

Deary me. At least May was really good at one point.

It allows those new combos to develop though while not risking exacerbating injuries. Perfect sense to use the squad like this. There's no step down in quality and those guys know the systems after being with the squad, I think the vast way through?

Agreed. It's underwhelming. Those rumours do move my idly guessing a potential 23 for Saturday a bit closer though.

Manu and Marchant likely to be absent but Lawrence is fit by the sounds of things. No Tom Willis coming in from standby suggest Billy will be ready. Chessum and Ribbans absent, no news on Walker being back either.

So, it's potentially a chance to see Itoje, Martin and Lawes together. That could beef up the second row whilst keeping strong lineout options in attack and defence.

May being in training does make me worry Watson or Arundell might be carrying knocks though. Arundell had that hammy tweak but was apparently back in training last Thursday. I thought Watson was fully fit, but maybe not.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Stuart 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Ford 11.Daly 12.Farrell 13.Lawrence 14.Arundell 15.Steward

16.Dan 17.Genge 18.Sinckler 19.Hill 20.Earl 21.Youngs 22.Porter 23.Malins

Perhaps something like that from the latest reports. I'm on tenterhooks for tomorrows announcement where I find out this is entirely wrong.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It allows those new combos to develop though while not risking exacerbating injuries. Perfect sense to use the squad like this. There's no step down in quality and those guys know the systems after being with the squad, I think the vast way through?

Please give it a rest man

TJ wrote:

and England have a host of good players

Do they really tho?  which of their players would get into the French. SA or Scottish teams?  None of the backs would get into Scotland team. Maybe a couple of tight five forwards

England have huge depth but at the top no real exceptional players IMO.

I don't really buy into the concept of "exceptional players". Teams that are working well make players look exceptional, and in rugby there are very few players who are exceptional enough that they look great in a poor team - Parisse, maybe, or McCaw (not that he ever played in a poor team...).

Or consider the impact that Wilkinson had on Toulon - they had a similar number of stars in the squad after he left, but they weren't the same team. His impact was exceptional; a lot of the players around him had been contenders for a world XV but they weren't enough to make an exceptional team on their own.

Whatever England are doing it's not working yet, and as a result their players aren't looking great. But things can change very quickly, and I don't think we will see where they are really at until the quarter final stage.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It allows those new combos to develop though while not risking exacerbating injuries. Perfect sense to use the squad like this. There's no step down in quality and those guys know the systems after being with the squad, I think the vast way through?

Please give it a rest man

There really isn't a drop off from those guys though. Porter probably the nearest one but defensively he's there and that was a big plus point from when teams were walking through us with Slade prominent. I think Hill is still probably the better lock than Martin who I'm sure will be better longer term, but his cap on Saturday showed a few areas where he can better. May, is a bit of a stalwart.

I look at the flip and I can't think of many players past your South African winger who would improve the England side.

Ritchie, Darge, Finn the king of the flash gits, Graham. Huipolotu

YOu do realise Graham was top in the players beaten stats in the 6Nations by a long way with Duhan second ( or maybe the other way round?) He has a truely exceptional try scoring ability and is no slouch in defense - indeed he made a turnover to win us a game.

As you say tho = hugely subjective and the scots have the luxury of playing together with a game plan to suit them

How many Calcutta cups? have a look thru the Stats for them

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It allows those new combos to develop though while not risking exacerbating injuries. Perfect sense to use the squad like this. There's no step down in quality and those guys know the systems after being with the squad, I think the vast way through?

Please give it a rest man

I'm enjoying his optimism.

TJ wrote:

I look at the flip and I can't think of many players past your South African winger who would improve the England side.

Ritchie, Darge, Finn the king of the flash gits, Graham. Huipolotu

YOu do realise Graham was top in the players beaten stats in the 6Nations by a long way with Duhan second ( or maybe the other way round?)  He has a truely exceptional try scoring ability and is no slouch in defense - indeed he made a turnover to win us a game.

As you say tho = hugely subjective and the scots have the luxury of playing together with a game plan to suit them

How many Calcutta cups?  have a look thru the Stats for them  

50 Calcutta Cups for Scotland, 89 for England.

https://youtu.be/wQ5e86VIqEo

Nice bit of England's kicking and how important it is. We didn't do it nearly enough at the weekend which allowed Wales into it. Care was talknig about how Wigglesworth has been given him lots of training on box kicking too. Great to see the players taking it all on and evolving.

Speaking of kicking (though this isn't England-specific), am I the only one who gets annoyed at seeing players offside from almost every box kick these days? And it's usually right in front of an assistant referee.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Speaking of kicking (though this isn't England-specific), am I the only one who gets annoyed at seeing players offside from almost every box kick these days? And it's usually right in front of an assistant referee.

There's a nice thread on the main body of laws that are ignored...but yes. And from kick offs. And hand on the floor at rucks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I missed that. Huge shoes for him to step into if that's the case, but SA attack has always been blistering and another voice in the brain trust can only be good.

Felix Jones is the only Irishman with a world cup winners medal (as far as I know)
Absolute fantastic signing. Would have loved him to come back to Ireland.

Yep, I'm very happy with Jones joining. A well regarded coach from a different setup plus he's got experience coaching attack and defence which seems to be where backs coaches are moving. Being able to work in both fields.

It's not a brand new thing. Wayne Smith, one of the best coaches rugby has seen, did it in Graham Henry's ABs setup. It is become more common though.

Where's his voice going to heard though when you already have Sinfield and Wigglesworth there? Just strikes me as a bit like when we had Proudfoot and Cockerill, too much grey area?

It's very common to have crossover between coaches.

Cockers and Proudfoot is one example that didn't work. You can find examples of any size coaching team working or not working. For instance, when England's forwards were very good early in the Jones tenure they had crossover between Borthwick (lineout and contact area) and Hatley (scrum and lineout). There was also crossover into defensive work between Gustard and Borthwick who did a ton of defensive work whilst running coaching around the contact area. Again that defence was fantastic.

Going through some coaching teams...

Ireland:

Farrell - Head coach (defence and backs)
Catt - Backs
POC - Forwards and lineout
Easterby - Defence and lineout
Murphy - Skills
Fogarty - Scrum

Boks:

Rassie - DOR
Nienabar - Head coach (defence)
Davids - Fowards
Stick - Backs
Jones - "Coaching consultant" but he works with backs on attack and defence, does contact area work with the squad
Human - Scrum

England with Jones joining:

Borthwick - Head coach (forwards and lineout)
Sinfield - Defence
Wigglesworth - Backs
Jones - Presumably backs in defence and attack, contact area work
Harrison - Scrum

Razor's already announced ABs team:

Robertson - Head coach
Ryan - Forwards
McDonald - Attack
Holland - Assistant attack coach
Hansen - Defence

No scrum coach yet confirmed but Greg Feek may well stay on. He's only been there a few years and their tight five is clearly trending up.

Basically, cross over of ideas between coaches that have both worked in an area is the norm not the outlier.

There's cross of grey areas though isn't there. Like scrum vs lineout very separate, it's when you start getting into areas like attack and skills coaches. The aforementioned Proudfoot and Cockerill where it turned out no one was coaching scrums!

As shown above most coaching teams have those cross over in those grey areas though. The new ABs team will have two attack coaches. Ireland have attack and skills coaches.

With South Africa they have crossover between Jones and Stick in the backs, Jones and Davids in contact area, Nienabar and Jones on defensive work. As Nienebar is now head coach as well as defence coach he uses Jones to delegate some of that work.

Borthwick is currently England's forwards coach whilst also head coach. He takes on the lineout and contact area with Harrison on the scrum. Similar to Borthwick and Hatley under Jones. It may be that he wants to delegate some of that contact area work to Jones for instance.

My main point being that a coaching setup of that size and having multiple voices in one area isn't unusual. In fact it's what most of the successful setups currently do. Likewise having coaches move across areas is more and more common since the ABs broke ground by keeping their staff the same but switching to new specialities when Henry wanted to shake things up without new personnel.

Fair enough. Just seemed odd that as you see the defence and attack improve someone coming in may disrupt that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I missed that. Huge shoes for him to step into if that's the case, but SA attack has always been blistering and another voice in the brain trust can only be good.

When they play England it is....

king_carlos wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Argentina have 11 players from the prem so they'll have the same fitness issues with to compensate for.

You are so right.  Clearly why they lost to the Boks.  Their Premiership players were so slothful...

I like using the word slothful.

Slothful is a great word. Fun yet descriptive.

A serious note with the Pumas Prem based players though, as I was looking at that over the RC and their squad announcement for this reason.

Alemanno has been in and out of the side. Whereas previously he's been locked in to run their set-piece. With Gonzalez (he's an absolutely brilliant player) having come through at flanker they may well use Kremer or Petti at lock again in the RWC instead. Then they blooded Brive project Paulos in the RC, who hasn't made the RWC.

Moroni has been on the bench more than starting. Whilst Falcons teammate Orlando has actually missed out on the RWC squad entirely.

So not all rosy for the significant Argentine contingent now in the Prem.

My argument re the Prem's obvious dive in standard isn't that England no longer have any players fit enough for international rugby either. I've never seen Curry at international level and thought he was short of fitness for instance. Some player are so talented that they can break through in any system. Others just work incredibly hard as individuals.

I do think there's a clear trend of younger players looking brilliant in the Premiership then being startling off the physicality and pace of international rugby though. Some such as Stuart have developed within the England squad and now looks much better. I'm actually hoping he can be starting at the RWC. Others such as Dombrandt. Well, let's just say he hasn't quite looked fit enough.

I know this is just a small part of your larger points, but about players and development and Dombrandt: I don't think fitness is his issue, but there is somehting abut him playing in one system compared to another. For instance, I think in the AB squad he would be tripping the light fantastic. On the other hand he would never even get a sniff of the Springbok squad. Sometime players are more suitable for one style of play or another.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Argentina have 11 players from the prem so they'll have the same fitness issues with to compensate for.

You are so right.  Clearly why they lost to the Boks.  Their Premiership players were so slothful...

I like using the word slothful.

Slothful is a great word. Fun yet descriptive.

A serious note with the Pumas Prem based players though, as I was looking at that over the RC and their squad announcement for this reason.

Alemanno has been in and out of the side. Whereas previously he's been locked in to run their set-piece. With Gonzalez (he's an absolutely brilliant player) having come through at flanker they may well use Kremer or Petti at lock again in the RWC instead. Then they blooded Brive project Paulos in the RC, who hasn't made the RWC.

Moroni has been on the bench more than starting. Whilst Falcons teammate Orlando has actually missed out on the RWC squad entirely.

So not all rosy for the significant Argentine contingent now in the Prem.

My argument re the Prem's obvious dive in standard isn't that England no longer have any players fit enough for international rugby either. I've never seen Curry at international level and thought he was short of fitness for instance. Some player are so talented that they can break through in any system. Others just work incredibly hard as individuals.

I do think there's a clear trend of younger players looking brilliant in the Premiership then being startling off the physicality and pace of international rugby though. Some such as Stuart have developed within the England squad and now looks much better. I'm actually hoping he can be starting at the RWC. Others such as Dombrandt. Well, let's just say he hasn't quite looked fit enough.

I know this is just a small part of your larger points, but about players and development and Dombrandt:  I don't think fitness is his issue, but there is somehting abut him playing in one system compared to another.  For instance, I think in the AB squad he would be tripping the light fantastic.  On the other hand he would never even get a sniff of the Springbok squad.  Sometime players are more suitable for one style of play or another.

Skipping the point that Dombrant would get nowhere near the NZ squad I'm not sure he'd look good in their system.

If you look at the preferred Kiwi 8s they are going with Ardie Savea who's work rate is through the roof and Luke Jacobson. If they wanted an intelligent running and skillful 8 then Hoskins Sotutu is available but not getting a look in.