Ireland's World Cup Build Up

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3 test matches and 3 defeats suggests Ireland's World Cup build up is not going well.

A.
As well as bad results, the performances haven't been great either. It's clear we have nobody we can rely on in the scrum to be backup tighthead if anything happens to Ross. O'Driscoll and D'arcy looked poor against France, and there is no standout backup for either. The lineout was dreadful in the first match against France. It was better in the second but the French weren't putting it under as much pressure, and the Irish lineout is certainly not the weapon it used to be. There is no penetration from the backline. They are just shuffling the ball to the wing and then kicking it away. It is not even very clear from watching them what style of rugby they are trying to play. It's looking like Ireland will have a bad World Cup. Again.

B.
These games have been really used as warmups by Declan Kidney. They've been giving gametime to all thirty squad members, to ensure they are all match fit for the World Cup. There was quite a large number of players returning from injury and getting them back to fitness was a priority. This strategy of getting real game time to all 30 squad members is a wise one and should pay off at the World Cup, where the Irish might start the tournament a little bit sharper than the other European teams. We will see much better rugby from Ireland when they have a settled best 15 for the big matches at the World Cup, and they'll be executing coherent game plans, rather than just getting everyone up to test match speed, which is what they've been doing so far.


So which is it? A or B?

Munster used to get slated for not taking the Magners seriously when Kidney was in charge. It was training for the Heineken Cup. All the ex-Munster players say that Kidney always had something different up his sleeve for important matches and it never bothered him losing the week before a Heineken Cup game. I remember in '08 the Leinster-Munster game in Musgrave and Munster insisted throwing the ball around like in a hurricane! Munster lost that game and it scared Munster fans. The following week, Munster went over to the Scarlets and beat them well.

Also bear in mind, that it wasn't until the final game in the 6Ns, that Ireland came together - up to that we looked very poor and everyone was very surprised at how well they performed.

Only worry I have is losing David Wallace - but I suppose we have Stephen Ferris back - hopefully he can stay fit.

greybeard wrote:

It does bother me that we look lifeless, clueless, lacking all invention and everyone is waiting for someone else to come up with the goods. It bothers me that the team talked about being angry after each match because they expect better of themselves, but were unable to raise their game. That's basics.

Those are the reasons why I have confidence in the Springbok team after the AllBlack test, not because of the result, but because of the intensity and hunger they have shown for the fist time sine 2009

Sin é, I hope you're right about that. It has struck me that the coach and players when interviewed seem to be showing remarkably little concern about these results. Geordan Murphy even had a little joke about how they'll definately be underdogs now.

But what Biltong said about intensity and hunger is relevant to Ireland. We know they can play with more hunger, speed and intensity. We saw it against England in the 6 Nations. But why has it disappeared again? Is it to much to ask for them to show it in every test match they play?

I've been very negative about the coaches. I'll look a bit silly if Ireland go and have a great World Cup. Nobody will care about these games then. But I think Irish rugby fans are very worried for very good reasons.

I agree with Feckless but i hope Sin is right. I wont let myself believe it because i felt exactly the same way after scotland and italy 4 years ago. Then i said the same after the namibia and georgis games. Then we were pasted by france and argentina.

I do hope you are right Sin but no matter what any player comes off with losing two tests in Lansdowne was never part of Kidneys plan. I wont criticise the man yet as a lot of our issues are down to individual mistakes (which is why we have so many games i guess)

I don't see it that way personally. We played 4 Test games, lost every single one of them, scored no tries against England, scored no tries against Scotland, scored no tries away in France.

I'm not happy about that at all. I consider that an apalling return. But it is the manner of the defeat most alarming.

I would bet my right arm that this isn't "keeping your powder dry". I have no doubt that Kidney and company were targetting 2 wins.

red_stag wrote:I don't see it that way personally. We played 4 Test games, lost every single one of them, scored no tries against England, scored no tries against Scotland, scored no tries away in France.

I'm not happy about that at all. I consider that an apalling return. But it is the manner of the defeat most alarming.

I would bet my right arm that this isn't "keeping your powder dry". I have no doubt that Kidney and company were targetting 2 wins.

Yeah I agree. There's no way any of this was in Kidneys plan. I'm sure that they would have targetted 2 home wins plus one away win.

I think the physicality of France and England really seemed to rock us and we just didn't have an answer. Our ball retention has been appalling and we've looked bereft of ideas with the ball in hand. It's not just our failure to score tries that is worrying but our failure to get over the gainline and make line breaks.

It looks like the 4 tests was a mistake. We've had far too many injuries and it looked like our players couldn't wait to get off the pitch against England. The only thing we've done is tackle ourselves into the ground over 4 tests.

Our tight 5 has been bullied about the place for 4 tests and we haven't managed to find a decent midfield combination.

Some of the selection descisions are bizarre too and strike of blind panic to me.

TOL has gone from 1st choice to 4th in 1 test and Boss and Murray who hardly played a game have gone in TOL's place, with Stringer nowhere to be seen. Bowe and D'arcy are out of sorts and McFadden has hardly featured at test level but Fitzgerald doesn't make the cut either despite playing ok in two tests.

I hope Kidney has a plan but our preperation looks like a shambles to me.

I just saw the highlights of the England match and wish I hadn't rewound to see David Wallaces injury

Bowe is only back. D'arce i would have hoped to look in better shape against England but alas. BOD will be undercooked as well. I feel Kidney will have learned from it though. He invested so much time in TOL and has been badly let down by his abysmal form. The result of this is that we have 2 9's who saw very little gametime. It was the right call just made a tad late.

It strikes me that perhaps Kidneys flaw is being too loyal to some guys and i think he will learn from it. Either way we have one game before Aus to put in a performance and get some belief back in the team. here's hoping we nail it agaisnt the yanks

I think Notch is spot on here, a few posts ago,

there will be first phase backs moves, different lineout calls and even some set and planned multi phase play but at the same time our team should be able to play off the cuff with a few old moves much better than they did. Also physicallity isn't something you can just flick a switch for. It was poor. Decision making and passing was poor. Lines of running was abismal.

That screen is the most frustrating thing we were doing, we are trying to copy NZ and Aus but we do it too slow and too deep and just end up going lateral. It's a way of creating space and stretching defences out wide and we just end up tiring out our forwards who have to carry and ruck from one side of the picth to the other

Darce didn't have a great game, but in his defense that was the first time in a long time that he seemed to look for the ball.

Didn't work, but gawd loves a trier

Stand I think we are taking the 3 best scrum halves we have. However Boss has hardly featured under Kidney and Murray has only just come on the scene.

TOL, Stringer and Reddan are the only 3 SH's to feature regularly under Kidney and it seems like he's hit the panic button with TOL after 1 poor game which is crazy. If Kidney had doubts about TOL then he should have started Boss or Murray in 1 of the tests.

How can Boss have leapfrogged TOL without even hardly playing? Why did Boss not feature in the 6N if he was in the frame?

The same applies to Fitzgerald. He had two decent games but doesn't even make the squad whereas McFadden who's hardly played does. On form D'arcy should have been left out if Kidney is being consistant.

No wonder the players look disinterested and unmotivated under Kidney. His selection policy seems to involve picking names out of a hat.

How O'Callaghan keeps his place I'll never know. Perhaps moving Ferris into the 2nd row might not be such a bad idea after all and then have an all Leinster backrow of SOB, Jennings and Heaslip. On current form Ferris could add alot more than DOC and it would allow us to play a natural 7 but keep SOB and Ferris on the pitch.

roddersm wrote:The same applies to Fitzgerald. He had two decent games but doesn't even make the squad whereas McFadden who's hardly played does. On form D'arcy should have been left out if Kidney is being consistant.

Players are left out if there are viable alternatives. At 12 we're too thin. D'Arcy should count himself lucky.

greybeard wrote:

roddersm wrote:The same applies to Fitzgerald. He had two decent games but doesn't even make the squad whereas McFadden who's hardly played does. On form D'arcy should have been left out if Kidney is being consistant.

Players are left out if there are viable alternatives. At 12 we're too thin. D'Arcy should count himself lucky.

Yes but why does McFadden get in ahead of Fitzgerald? If it's his ability to play centre then why didn't he get more gametime there? Based on the 4 tests you certainly couldn't conlude that McFadden offers more on the wing.

Unless Kidney is picking guys based on what they are doing in training then I don't understand what he's at because it certainly isn't based on what they are doing on the pitch.

When the squad was picked D'arcy had 1 game back where he looked rusty but iot was only 1 game. i thought he was worse against England. On the TOL call i agree that he probably gave him too much gametime but it was hardly a reaction to one game to drop him. It was a result of poor form for a long time.

McFadden played 1 game at centre. Fitz didnt at all. I think thats part of the reason he was selected. D'arces fitness/form meant he wanted to go with another centre.

In the face of all the doubt and critisism already building i am glad that fitzgerald isnt there. He is a fragile enough flower as it is, and the barrage of criticism which would land on him if he pulled a dodgy one at an important time RWC could be fatal. McFadden is a more solid bet.

And yeah its late in the day to be talking of such things but maybe bowe is the answer in the centre. Everyone else has such powerful strike runners there, we were ok when Darcy and O'Driscoll were at the peaks of their powers but, when not on form, Darcy's size is a weakness through the middle.

Anyone for: Reddan/Murray, Sexton, Earls, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Trimble, Murphy/Kearney in the backs?

roddersm wrote:

greybeard wrote:

roddersm wrote:The same applies to Fitzgerald. He had two decent games but doesn't even make the squad whereas McFadden who's hardly played does. On form D'arcy should have been left out if Kidney is being consistant.

Players are left out if there are viable alternatives. At 12 we're too thin. D'Arcy should count himself lucky.

Yes but why does McFadden get in ahead of Fitzgerald? If it's his ability to play centre then why didn't he get more gametime there? Based on the 4 tests you certainly couldn't conlude that McFadden offers more on the wing.

Unless Kidney is picking guys based on what they are doing in training then I don't understand what he's at because it certainly isn't based on what they are doing on the pitch.

In the warm-ups our back three have been good and our centres have been dire. So I think it makes sense to bring an extra centre ahead of a back three player. Of course, McFadden can also play wing but I think it's his physical attributes and more recent experience at centre that got him on the plane.

Frank The APC wrote:In the face of all the doubt and critisism already building i am glad that fitzgerald isnt there. He is a fragile enough flower as it is, and the barrage of criticism which would land on him if he pulled a dodgy one at an important time RWC could be fatal. McFadden is a more solid bet.

And yeah its late in the day to be talking of such things but maybe bowe is the answer in the centre. Everyone else has such powerful strike runners there, we were ok when Darcy and O'Driscoll were at the peaks of their powers but, when not on form, Darcy's size is a weakness through the middle.

Anyone for: Reddan/Murray, Sexton, Earls, Bowe, O'Driscoll, Trimble, Murphy/Kearney in the backs?

Yes please.
I know people don't like Bowe at 13 but I do, I think they'd be a good partnership re their line running too. Would leave space for earls and Trimble as well which is good.

Defensive positioning could be tricky but I guess that would have to be worked upon.
It's a new combo but having a seriously experienced one didn't help when Rougerie went between Darcy and BOD.

How is McFadden a more solid bet than Fitzgerald? You certainly wouldn't form that opinion based on the warm-up games. Both were picked for the pre-squad and both asked to perform. Fitzgerald looked sharp and hungry, McFadden looked like the novice he is, and had very little impact.

With D'Arcy and Paddy Wallace both picked, and cover at 13 from Trimble, Earls and Bowe, I'm surprised that Kidney ignored the warm-up game performances and went with McFadden.

I know Kidney is generally a popular bloke in Ireland, but his record in 2011 is horrible, and I really can't see Ireland getting anything from Australia. Despite all these warm-up games, the backline is in a bit of a mess.

Well for such a solid player Fitz can't do the basics very well.
His passing is appalling and his cathcing can be suspect too.

McF makes less mistakes and scores more tries domestically than Fitz and is more versatile.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I know Kidney is generally a popular bloke in Ireland, but his record in 2011 is horrible, and I really can't see Ireland getting anything from Australia. Despite all these warm-up games, the backline is in a bit of a mess.

I'm not sure that popularity will last. People are running out of patience. We need to perform sooner rather than later.

I wonder where he'd head to when he eventually finishes with Ireland. Abroad? Munster? AIL? Connacht?

Hi Notch

What happened to the golden generation, I expected Ireland to do well at this years WC.

HERSH wrote:Hi Notch

What happened to the golden generation, I expected Ireland to do well at this years WC.

Same as happened to England's footy golden generation?

Trevor Brennan Rugby Tour wrote:I wonder where he'd head to when he eventually finishes with Ireland. Abroad? Munster? AIL? Connacht?

I don't think a job outside of Ireland would interest Kidney. He'd be more likely to move into a higher level role in an advisory capacity either within the IRFU or back at Munster. His love of Munster is well documented and his spells at Dragons and Leinster were always seen (I believe) as jobs he took until the opportunity arose to return, first to his country and then to his province.

HERSH wrote:Hi Notch

What happened to the golden generation, I expected Ireland to do well at this years WC.

They're still around. Haven't heard anyone in Ireland use the phrase 'golden generation' though. As far as I can tell that is a term invented by the UK sports media.

Notch wrote:They're still around. Haven't heard anyone in Ireland use the phrase 'golden generation' though. As far as I can tell that is a term invented by the UK sports media.

Damn Belfast Telegraph!

funnyExiledScot wrote:How is McFadden a more solid bet than Fitzgerald? You certainly wouldn't form that opinion based on the warm-up games. Both were picked for the pre-squad and both asked to perform. Fitzgerald looked sharp and hungry, McFadden looked like the novice he is, and had very little impact.

With D'Arcy and Paddy Wallace both picked, and cover at 13 from Trimble, Earls and Bowe, I'm surprised that Kidney ignored the warm-up game performances and went with McFadden.

I know Kidney is generally a popular bloke in Ireland, but his record in 2011 is horrible, and I really can't see Ireland getting anything from Australia. Despite all these warm-up games, the backline is in a bit of a mess.

Couldn't agree more exiledscot. I thought Fitzgerald was much more impressive than McFadden. Earls is clearly the backup 13 and Wallace and D'arcy are the 12s so bringing McFadden makes very little sense especially with Bowe struggling.

In my opinion McFadden is a more solid bet. Fitzgerald will come good but he needs some time out. His catching, handling and kicking have been well below par and he consistently butchers attacks, especially try scoring opportunities by running ahead of the passer, resulting either a forward pass or the pass going behind him. I think he has a good rugby brain but he's trying for the perfect play all the time.

If Darcy is injured or stays in bad form then i reckon we need McFadden. Earls isnt and never will be a centre. Paddy Wallace doesnt convince. Luke will be back but as a winger i think. I'll take McFaddens for his versitility, centre cover and leg drive for the moment me thinks. I think he should be our no. 22.

Loving 606v2 btw. Bye bye work related boredom

Fitzgerald has shown he can't play anywhere but wing. Neither is he a starting player, so he was simply too much of a luxury to take when McFadden offers more cover.

Ireland haven't helped their confidence by picking half strong teams all the way through the warm ups, Gatland had the right idea in going for a strong side and making a few changes here and there.

The bottom line is Ireland will be happy if they make the Quarters, all you need to do is beat USA, Russia and Italy to do it... There is no reason why you should fail this.

Frank you must have seen something in McFadden that I haven't yet in an Ireland shirt. On current form Fitzgerald isn't an Irish starter but he's still shown glimpses of the class that made him a test lion whilst McFadden hasn't yet delivered anything to suggest he's an international test player in any position, let alone centre.

McFadden has enormous potential but why has he not been given any time as a centre at Test level. Kidney obviously has blind faith in Darcy and will stick with him (6-nations?). Even on Saturday there was an opportunity to give McFadden 20 minutes but instead he replaced Trimble on the wing. Not a lot learned there then.

Good to see you back rava . That is exactly my point, McFadden has primarily played on the wing so if its his percieved ability to cover centre that's won him a spot then why hasn't he played there more in the warm ups? Certainly he hasn't looked better out wide than Fitzgerald.

IMO Fitzgerald was never competing with McFadden for the last seat on the plane, as Fitz is a wing and McF a centre. McFadden has played at 12 and 13 in this series and that's where he would play at Leinster predominantly.

Luke was purely up against Trimble for the third wing spot. Trimble showed a lot more form, and Kidney was always going to pick Bowe and Earls. With Murphy and Kearney that's five players covering three positions - no need for any more.

OTOH for two centre positions Kidney has Wallace as cover and er...? In the interests of having a balanced squad, logic would dictate that McFadden was the obvious choice.

No your right Roddersm, I havent seen a lot from McFadden in an Ireland shirt but at the same time i dont think he has been in a full strenght side playing remotely well where he has a chance to shine. Not since france 6 nations where he scored a good try. He's been consistently good with leinster though. And he should have been given more game time in warm ups for sure, thats why we are not sure what level he's at

But yeah, i guess its just worry and a lack of faith in Fitzgerald turning it around in time more than anything else....sad but true

Aukster McFadden played 13 against Scotland and his other appearances have been on the wing. Earls has twice played at 13 which suggests that McFadden will be covering the outside backs more than the centres at the WC.

Fitz wasn't doing anything great, he made 2 nice breaks and defended well but still doesn't lok great IMO. That and he can not pass, the box kicks that he catches I bet every 15 is terrified of the pass that he gives to them on the inside.

Also McF was very good against Connacht

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also McF was very good against Connacht

If that's the height of our super technical selection policy we're in deep doo-doo.

greybeard wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Also McF was very good against Connacht

If that's the height of our super technical selection policy we're in deep doo-doo.

+ 1.

What is with the Lukey love on here today? He played well in the warm up tests my eye. Do ye remember the French match away a couple of weeks ago? He took someone out in the air and then took out a man without the ball about ten metres from our line a few minutes later. If that was a world cup match or six nations one he would have got a yellow card both times. Look, I like Fitz, he's a good player and please god he'll return to the one he was in 2009 but right now he's a complete and utter liability. Kidney made the right call to bring McFadden instead. Fitz made one break in the home match against France but he did nente aside from that. He's back in Leinster now where the pressure of the world is off his shoulders and hopefully he'll improve and return to what he once was.

Well Boss and Murray obviously impressed enough and Geordan got valuable game time too. Wallace got game time at 10.

The point I am making was he managed to get in good places, finish his try well, set up another 2, beat a few defenders.
How would Fitz have done?
He didn't do anything against a very weakened Northampton the other evening.

Just pointing it out nothing more

Pete, I'd say the Connacht match should have been used for three purposes. Game time, to practice training moves at pace and for players to play themselves out of contention, not in.

A good performance against the weakest province is meaningless, but a bad performance (Buckley!) should have been the writing on the wall.

For the record I agree with McFadden over Fitz. But I consider the Connacht match inadmissiable as evidence

mrsuperclear wrote:What is with the Lukey love on here today? He played well in the warm up tests my eye. Do ye remember the French match away a couple of weeks ago? He took someone out in the air and then took out a man without the ball about ten metres from our line a few minutes later. If that was a world cup match or six nations one he would have got a yellow card both times. Look, I like Fitz, he's a good player and please god he'll return to the one he was in 2009 but right now he's a complete and utter liability. Kidney made the right call to bring McFadden instead. Fitz made one break in the home match against France but he did nente aside from that. He's back in Leinster now where the pressure of the world is off his shoulders and hopefully he'll improve and return to what he once was.

Whats with all the lukey hate and the McFadden love?

Fitzgerald did more in the last few games than McFadden, he's more experienced and also finished the season stronger for Leinster. There is no justification for taking McFadden ahead of Fitzgerald unless it's because of doubts around D'arcy and if that is the case then why didn't McFadden get game time at 12 in the warm ups?

On current form Fitzgerald is a better winger than McFadden and McFadden has hardly any experience as an international or even provincial level centre.

Well, the team are heading off to New Zealand today I think. I think I might stop complaining and start up my one eyed fanatical support. But I really hope they don't crash and burn.

Best of luck!

I have to agree with mrsuperclear.

Fitz was rather poor in bordeaux and against France at Aviva he made 2 decent break (when the french had stopped quite frankly) and threw one pass into the ground. If D'arcy and BOD arent fully fit (the former shouldnt be going but thats another story) then McFadden as extra centre cover makes sense.

To be honest i dont think the selection/dropping of McFadden/Fitzgerald is going to define our world cup campaign.

yep squad is picked now good luck to them all. I think he has picked the right squad to be honest. TOL and Luke have not played very well over the last 4/5 months. One break against France by Luke did not change my mind

its a big ask to find some form in 3 weeks but fingers crossed they can do it. I make no apology in having a pop at Kidney and his coaching team but if they manage a successful world cup campaign where we play some good rugby i will doff my cap to them all.

Lets hope they can do it

Yeah good call, they were close calls between lions past present and future and some got the chance. I think we will come good when required. By the time the (maybe) south africa game comes we will have played 9 games and like in the heineken cup thats the business end of the tournament where the Irish really shine. Bring. It. On.

Cheers Rodders

I'm delighted for McFadden that he is going. I just hope it isn't for the wrong reason. He is the future at 12 for us I believe. If he does get a chance during the tournament I hope he grasps it with everything he can grasp with

Seems that Gordon D'Arcy is injured now.

D'Arcy added to list of walking wounded

NOEL O’REILLY

Rugby: Ireland’s World Cup preparations suffered yet another setback today after Gordon D’Arcy sustained a calf strain during a recovery session ahead of the flight to New Zealand. As a result, D’Arcy will not travel with the rest of the squad this afternoon but will join them at their Queenstown base later in the week.

Ireland’s build-up has been beset by problems with Felix Jones and David Wallace already ruled out of the tournament with long-term injuries. Cian Healy won’t travel until the weekend as he receives treatment on a damaged eye socket, while Brian O’Driscoll, Seán O’Brien, Jerry Flannery and Jamie Heaslip all travel south with knocks picked up during the warm-up series.

D’Arcy missed the opening two matches in August as he recovered from an ankle operation but did feature in the home defeats to France and England. Despite two underwhelming performances at the Aviva Stadium, Ireland coach Declan Kidney can ill-afford to do without the Leinster centre.
"Gordon D'Arcy suffered a calf strain this morning during a recovery session in Dublin," said team manager Paul McNaughton today. "On medical advice we are not going to bring out Gordon with us on this flight and are going to delay it for about 48 hours.

"That's the best medical advice we had. Just let the injury sort itself out. He is still due to fly out on Saturtday. He's not ruled out of anything yet. Its a slight calf strain and we'll re-scan it before he flies out."

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0830/1224303207518.html