Leinster to investigate racism claims

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0827/mujati.html

Leinster are holding a "full internal investigation" after Northampton prop Brian Mujati claimed he was the subject of racist remarks during last night's pre-season friendly at Donnybrook.

Mujati, 26, made the allegations on Twitter this morning. He later removed the postings, in which he claimed the remarks had come from Leinster prop Heinke van der Merwe and lock Steven Sykes.
Press Association Sport understands that Van der Merwe and Sykes deny the allegations.

The only comment that Leinster would make was in a statement which said: "Following allegations made by a Northampton Saints player this morning via his personal Twitter account, Leinster Rugby are holding a full internal investigation.

"The managements of both teams are in close communication and hopefully the matter will be resolved as soon as possible.

"No further comment will be made at this time until that resolution has been reached."

Zimbabwe-born Mujati, who has won 12 caps for South Africa, was clearly upset when he posted on the social networking site.
A Northampton spokesman told Press Association Sport:

"The club takes any allegations like this very seriously. We will be talking to the player concerned about it and contacting Leinster.
We will not make any further comment at this time."

The Rugby Football Union have confirmed that because the alleged incident took place on Irish soil it falls outside of their jurisdiction.

The IRFU have said they are in touch with Leinster and Northampton on the matter.

Mickado wrote:Brian Mujati is from Zimbabwe, they do not speak Afrikaans there.

You know that he has played in South Africa. He knew what the word meant, he obviously knows enough without having to be fluent.

I've been called Gwailo in China, Gaijin in Japan and Muzungo in Tanzania, I don't speak Cantonese, Japanese of Swahili, but I know enough to know they weren't terms of endearment.

So Sin, do you not believe that it’s just a word in this case? Have we gone back to square one and discarded any evidence and branding the two Leinster players racists?

It’s a call. it happens to be a word that’s also racist. I told my black colleague from London that I was going to have a sambo for lunch and he nearly decked me. Words can often get mixed up between two cultures and in this case a mix up between people from neighbouring countries.

Mickado wrote:Have we gone back to square one and discarded any evidence and branding the two Leinster players racists?

For the record, I'm not saying that at all. As far as I'm concerned we've moved on from that to discussing how this whole 'misunderstanding' came about, because of a badly chosen trigger call. Although at this stage we're just going round in circles.

greybeard wrote:

Mickado wrote:Have we gone back to square one and discarded any evidence and branding the two Leinster players racists?

For the record, I'm not saying that at all. As far as I'm concerned we've moved on from that to discussing how this whole 'misunderstanding' came about, because of a badly chosen trigger call. Although at this stage we're just going round in circles.

I believe you and I have reached that stage. But Sin has regressed. Unless he genuinely thinks you can’t see a baboon in the zoo.

Notch wrote:To be clear, Sin, I don't think the use of the word baboon as a racial slur by one South African man is relevant to this case. It may have racial overtones depending on the context in which it is used, but it doesn't in of itself. I heard the Ulster pack using the word 'Magners' in their lineout calls on Friday. Am I to presume they are all alcoholics? The connection is fairly tenuous.

Also, does South Africa have a problem with race relations? Obviously yes. Does every South African live up to that stereotype? Probably not. Is it fair to suggest any given South African will reflect those attitudes? Obviously not.

You spend a few seconds on google and suddenly you're the expert. Come on man!

But 'baboon' seems to be a word used a lot in South Africa as a racial slur (and the first article I googled used it as an example of a racial slur).

Once again, the reason I goggled was it common that a whole ethnic group could be branded as racist - and produced a link to the BBC doing it (not some internet keyboard warriors who are being questioned about doing it).

As an aside, when I did goggle, I came across a paper written by a black Canadian who travelled around SA which was very interesting - his conclusion - racisim (from all ethnic groups) is alive and well in SA.

Mickado wrote:I told my black colleague from London that I was going to have a sambo for lunch and he nearly decked me.

So, even though to you it must means sandwich, would you feel ok about using it as a trigger call, knowing full well you might get accused of racism if you used it? This is the point I'm trying to make, not to say someone is racist, just crashingly insensitive.

greybeard wrote:

Mickado wrote:I told my black colleague from London that I was going to have a sambo for lunch and he nearly decked me.

So, even though to you it must means sandwich, would you feel ok about using it as a trigger call, knowing full well you might get accused of racism if you used it? This is the point I'm trying to make, not to say someone is racist, just crashingly insensitive.

Fair enough. I agree with you on that.

Right, so can we all stop now?

Mickado wrote:So Sin, do you not believe that it’s just a word in this case? Have we gone back to square one and discarded any evidence and branding the two Leinster players racists?

It’s a call. it happens to be a word that’s also racist. I told my black colleague from London that I was going to have a sambo for lunch and he nearly decked me. Words can often get mixed up between two cultures and in this case a mix up between people from neighbouring countries.

So, I take it you now won't be telling your black colleague again that you are going for a sambo now that you know it could be misunderstood by them. Those SA lads would know that 'baboom' is a racial slur and if they had any cop on would be giving it a wide berth.

I agree with Greybeard it is not racist it's just "crashingly insensitive"

I agree with a lot of the points that Sin E has made. A name by any other name would smell as sweet.

At a very minimum it is careless and insensitive to use baboon as a trigger word. At worst it is a case of using a known taunt to put Mujati off his game (really doubt thats the case).

It clears the pair of racism but they are still pretty stupid and don't seem to be too hot on morals and respect.

I agree that any word can be used and now should be used as a substitute

On a similar incident I refereed a game last year with a Nigerian guy playing on the wing. His team wore a black shirt and at one ruck I was seen and heard to point at him and shout "Hindmost foot, black"

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It clears the pair of racism but they are still pretty stupid and don't seem to be too hot on morals and respect.

I agree that any word can be used and now should be used as a substitute

How are they cleared of racism? All Leinster Rugby have done is made a phone call to Mtawarira who confirmed that the Nathal Sharks use it as a trigger word.
Does LR accept Nathal Sharks standards as being good enough for Leinster?

Well surely there has to be an intent to make a racist remark for them to be charged of something.

I don't think it is a racism issue anymore, more one of decency (not just in relation to racism mainly just good/bad form)

Like what could they have said instead at that very moment? "here bru budge over he's booring in and I wanna hit him one!"

Bad call and a call that needs to be changed but it was a call by the sounds of it. Not a racial attack or an intended slight it was just the call

Pete - the point we are making is that they could have chosen a word without such obvious racial undertones.

I refuse to believe that any especially those involved in South African rugby could use the word baboon without being aware of the racial meaning it has.

Totally agree but during the match when they wanted to react they just used the call they knew, definitely bad choice by who ever chose that word though totally agree with you there

Seems we're a little more PC than in SA.

Well that appears to be a good thing in my books.

I agree with you. I know MrsP was saying its wrong to judge SA or anything but a lot of people from that neck of the woods have a different attitude towards race relations.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Totally agree but during the match when they wanted to react they just used the call they knew, definitely bad choice by who ever chose that word though totally agree with you there

Are you sure it would not have been a preplanned call - van der Merwe didn't play with Sykes at the Sharks, did he?

I agree. I know it's wrong to sterotype or put a certain load of people in one bracket but their history seems to have left a mark on them with regards to attitude, hopefully one day this problem won't exist.

Not sure if they have ever played together, maybe it's a call that a lot of South Africans know? I really don't know.

I assume Leinster didn't use it in the HCup final or else Mujati would have said something then so it seems to be something that Skyes and VDM knew from their time before Leisnter

red_stag wrote:I agree with you. I know MrsP was saying its wrong to judge SA or anything but a lot of people from that neck of the woods have a different attitude towards race relations.

Well, if countries outside of SA didn't judge them, apartheid would be still legal in SA.

Ireland has a great reputation in regard to campaiging for the abolition of apartheid in SA - think of what the Dunne Stores workers and Kadar Asmal (who passed away this year) did. Mind you, the IRFU sent a team to SA in the early 80s against the wishes of the Irish Gov!

Is this QANTAS

A) Racist

B) PC Brigade gone mad (again !!) ?

Sin,

You don't think that maybe some South Africans had a bit to do with the ending of apartheid too?

I am not suggesting that there are no racists in South Africa just that it is unfair to lable all/any South African as racist because of their ethnic origin.

Is it possible that these two lads have moved on in their view to the point where they did not think about the colour of the players they were facing?

most definitely B IMO

Evidence suggests otherwise to me MrsP.

I am not saying they did it because they were South African. I am saying it is a factor.

As I see it:

- The Leinster players shouted a word as a signal alerting each other to the actions of Mujati

- The word they used - baboon - has strong racial undertones, was likely to and did cause offense when it was used.

- The fact that it is only white South African players involved in this does not surprise me.

PenfroPete wrote:Is this QANTAS

A) Racist

B) PC Brigade gone mad (again !!) ?

I aint touching that one with a 50 foot clown pole!

The question I would love to hear is to whether this is something van der Merwe uses often. He has been at Leinster for over a year. Surely Greg Feek or Leo Cullen are able to say if this is a tactic or a once off he used with his opponent in mind.

What evidence Stag?

The fact they shouted BABOON at a black man MrsP.

Unless I hear Leinster make a statement that van der Merwe has used this while playing for Leinster previously I consider this racist.

red_stag wrote:The question I would love to hear is to whether this is something van der Merwe uses often. He has been at Leinster for over a year. Surely Greg Feek or Leo Cullen are able to say if this is a tactic or a once off he used with his opponent in mind.

Think you’re missing the point that it’s Sykes’ call.

Sykes realizes Mujati is boring in and calls VDM to give some wriggle room.
The evidence we’ve seen suggests that this was a genuine call used by the Sharks. Of course VDM didn’t use it before, but that proves nothing.

red_stag wrote:The fact they shouted BABOON at a black man MrsP.

Unless I hear Leinster make a statement that van der Merwe has used this while playing for Leinster previously I consider this racist.

Where’s the evidence to suggest anything was shouted AT a black man.
The only thing we know for sure is that somewhere, someone used that word.

Ah so Sykes does it? Ah fair play I get it now.

I thought this was the looseheads call to alert the second row and I was wondering why VDM only used it when faced with black tighthead.

Changes things a lot.

What if it was Skyes was the one who called it and he assumed that VDM just knew it?

Also Stag: Innocent til proven guilty no??????

Oh apologies sorry little bit behind on that!

PenfroPete wrote:Is this QANTAS

A) Racist

B) PC Brigade gone mad (again !!) ?

You could argue both ways. One they're dressing up. But two they're signifying that his skin colour is significant. It's all to do with point of view. Some people may well relate that to racism. and as long as people care it'll be there. Ironically once no-one cares anymore the same act would have no problem.

a reasonably good example is the sorting rhyme "eeny meeny miny mo". Nothing wrong with it unless you know that it was used to decide which black person the mob was going to lynch. My parents even used the version where you caught a "Tigger". Never had any idea of the other uses until the car billboard campaign was pulled.

Pete as I said if new boy Sykes called it and its used by him team then I'd change my view a fair bit.

As for innocent until proven guilty in terms of official sanctions yes.

But did they shout it at Mujati or did they shout a previously use "code" at each other to signal that the Tighthead was boring in?

If this is a call which has been used by these players in a situation where their Loosehead is black then they could hardly have been using it in a racist way.

MrsP - I hope this doesn't get modded cos I want to use the word to make my point.

Why can't they use the word nigger as their trigger call? Baboon is offensive and I think your bright enough to know that.

I do think at minimum it was inconsiderate and showed a lack of thought.

poissonrouge wrote:But did they shout it at Mujati or did they shout a previously use "code" at each other to signal that the Tighthead was boring in?

If this is a call which has been used by these players in a situation where their Loosehead is black then they could hardly have been using it in a racist way.

How exactly can you tell that? All the front row at least stare at each other during a scrum. If at some point someone shouts baboon how do you know who it's targetted at? (BTW this is argument about Mujati's reaction not the initial intent. We'll never know if there was anything behind it so we should accept there wasn't. It does depend, in my mind how prominant to use of baboon as a slur is in south africa. The fact a top team in South Africa get away with using it suggests it's not up there.

Maybe because there can be no other meaning for that word?

Baboon is a perfectly acceptable word which has been used in a racist way on occasions. The word you suggested is not.

Well they weren't shouting it at Mujati they were shouting it at eachother.

Also while it clears it up a bit, the fact remains it's still an awful choice of word and must be changed

I think it is highly naive to think that baboon is a word not likely to offend.

It is a code to refer to the actions of a player - a player who in this case is black. It is a poor choice which can and did cause offense.

Im a big believer that precious little happens by accident at that level.

Chink is another term used for chinese people. It has another perfectly acceptable meaning but I think using it as a code to refer to what a Chinese man is doing is also likely to cause offence.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Also while it clears it up a bit, the fact remains it's still an awful choice of word and must be changed

+1

One thing that should also be mentioned is that if lets say Hayes was booring in, would Skyes have called baboon?

The answer to that is the answer as to whether it was a racist attack and a viable excuse or a poorly choosen code word.

Mickado wrote:Brian Mujati is from Zimbabwe, they do not speak Afrikaans there.

He knows a bit of Afrikaans though, a lot of calls and things in the SA rugby team are in Afrikaans. I was reading his blog and he uses a few phrases in Afrikaans.

Have I got this right?

This was a call which was recognised as one used at the Sharks to indicate that the TH was boring in? This was used at a time when Tendai Mtawarira was playing in their Front row?

If that is the case, is it fair to assume any racial slur was intended?

Pete - I'd say having heard its Sykes' call that its a poorly chosen word. However some people don't seem to have any problem with it.