Leinster to investigate racism claims

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0827/mujati.html

Leinster are holding a "full internal investigation" after Northampton prop Brian Mujati claimed he was the subject of racist remarks during last night's pre-season friendly at Donnybrook.

Mujati, 26, made the allegations on Twitter this morning. He later removed the postings, in which he claimed the remarks had come from Leinster prop Heinke van der Merwe and lock Steven Sykes.
Press Association Sport understands that Van der Merwe and Sykes deny the allegations.

The only comment that Leinster would make was in a statement which said: "Following allegations made by a Northampton Saints player this morning via his personal Twitter account, Leinster Rugby are holding a full internal investigation.

"The managements of both teams are in close communication and hopefully the matter will be resolved as soon as possible.

"No further comment will be made at this time until that resolution has been reached."

Zimbabwe-born Mujati, who has won 12 caps for South Africa, was clearly upset when he posted on the social networking site.
A Northampton spokesman told Press Association Sport:

"The club takes any allegations like this very seriously. We will be talking to the player concerned about it and contacting Leinster.
We will not make any further comment at this time."

The Rugby Football Union have confirmed that because the alleged incident took place on Irish soil it falls outside of their jurisdiction.

The IRFU have said they are in touch with Leinster and Northampton on the matter.

That's not what I said at all, please read back.

i sad the orange order were offensive to a large chunk of people and perhaps a bad example you said only to some people. The inference being that because only some people are offended that you casn say what you like.

Keep reading back...

People are trying to agrue that shouting Baboon near a black person isn't racist,
it's just not true,
you can argue that baboons are in zoo's and it not a racist word and wasn't aimed directly at a black player.

but lets change it round

If there was a police office in a street and I shouted 'PIGGY', I don't think he'd think, 'that wasn't aimed directly at me, and pigs live on farms and it's not an offensive term'
I'd expect he'd come over and have a strong word with me.

I think anyone saying it's ok to shout baboon on the rugby pitch, as its not an insult with racial overtones, should then go out and shout piggy oink oink when police are about and see how well thier argument stands.

It sounds a bit racist to me to be honest. Not good for my beloved Leinster's reputation.

Sin,

Are you really saying that it is okay for a black rugby player to use the word baboon as a call in rugby but it is not okay for a white rugby player to use the same word in the same context?

greybeard wrote:Keep reading back...

My point being that the orange order is offensive to a majority of people in Ulster all 9 counties not the 6 that make up Northern Ireland.

I'd say a lot of unionist people in Ulster don't have much time for the orange order either. But we probably shouldn't get into talking about them.

A white rugby player referring to a black rugby player as a baboon just isn't on. Like the N word. It's a word loaded with history of prejudice, racism, slavery etc. when used by a white person.

Like an Irishman could laugh and joke about say, the famine, or the black and tans. But if an English person started slagging him about these things it might upset him. It just wouldn't be nice would it? Who's saying it to who can change the context.

But he wasn't referring to any rugby player.

It was a call!!!

poissonrouge wrote:Sin,

Are you really saying that it is okay for a black rugby player to use the word baboon as a call in rugby but it is not okay for a white rugby player to use the same word in the same context?

I'm saying it is not acceptable to refer to any person as a baboon (black or otherwise) as far as I'm concerned. In a rugby context, it is ill advised to use that word when you have whites & blacks involved.

Not nice anyone calling someone of your own race a baboon (or a cnut, TBH), but I don't think you can be racist towards someone of your own race.

this is a simple one really

baboon must be a fairly common call in rugby is SA, prob going from Schoolboy level. SA players all know it, and it prob is a slightly racist term, which is why schoolboys choose it, (and SA hasn't quite got the same attudude to racism we have) and sometimes its used at senior level, (just as say someone may call 99 in the northern hemp and everyone knows what to do).

it wasn't practised at Leinster and no-one learned it, it wasn't a practised move.

durning the game Skyles noticed van der Merwe boring in, and made the call, (thats been used by all levels of rugby in SA) to his front row how he knew would know what the call ment to do.

they prob didn't mean to cause offence, but using a schoolboy term ( that was prob picked because it is racist, can cause offence.

It was prob an oversight by the player, but the black person and word baboon and police officer and word pig is probally a good analogy.

You just can't shout pig in front of the police and not expect them to take offence, and maybe even court, no matter waht way you try to spin it. just like you can't shout baboon near black people and not expect them to take offence.

If you think them shouldn't be offended as it's just a word and not an insult in context, try the same infront of a cop and see do they take offence or not.

poissonrouge wrote:
But he wasn't referring to any rugby player.

It was a call!!!

A calling referring to a player.

Would he have made the same call if the Saints TH was white?

If the answer to this is likely to be "yes" then you can not claim it was a racist remark.

MrsP then we get back to what the general conscensus is:

i.e. It wasn't an intended racist remark (if it was there should be major sanctions). But it was a poor choice of word.

poissonrouge wrote:
But he wasn't referring to any rugby player.

It was a call!!!

Look, would you be saying its just a call if Ulster rugby used 'fenians' or Munster had a 'King Billy' call?

Sin é wrote:
Look, would you be saying its just a call if Ulster rugby used 'fenians' or Munster had a 'King Billy' call?

Sin please don't give away our calls...

Okay, this thread has gone on about 3 pages further than necessary without seeming to develop on from a "you can vs you can't" Holly Wilaboobie for tat.


A little from left field, but is it wrong for me to be reminded of the surreal observation by I think it was Eddie Izzard (or was it Ross Noble?) of using a saw to cut some wood! He made a sound that was nothing like a saw and says that the sound and motion makes it look like he was punching a baboon in the face. Come to think of it, I think it was Eddie Izzard and it was about Noah building his Arc.

Now I guess we are saying if there was a non-white person in the vacinity of that venue when the observation was made, all english comedians are racist, but if only white people were around to laugh at it when the sketch happened, all english comedians aren't racist.

And for added spice, in California, even if there is no one there to be offended, if someone there was offended they have the right to pursue the matter on the grounds that it would offend non-whites if they had been present at the time (that was an interesting HR briefing when I started working over there).

red_stag wrote:

poissonrouge wrote:
But he wasn't referring to any rugby player.

It was a call!!!

A calling referring to a player.

No a call referring to his actions.

Sin é wrote:

poissonrouge wrote:
But he wasn't referring to any rugby player.

It was a call!!!

Look, would you be saying its just a call if Ulster rugby used 'fenians' or Munster had a 'King Billy' call?

Yeah, totally agree. Best just to call yerselves, self-indulging, chip-on-the-shoulder - rednecks and be honest about it. Is that a Call?

Honestly, this thread and its repsonses, really worry me. I think there are more inherent racists on V2 than I realised. Ye are protesting it to death. That tells a lot. The only person I can see talking any sense and putting it all in context - is MrsP. And she's a Billygirl ,who poisons innocent Kaflics like me - with Proddie M&S soup.

I know, I know, I am a West-Brit, Northside, Dutch-Dub skanger, Sin. Respekt. I know my rights! And I will utilise them, whenever & wherever I hear something that may upset me. Even if it wasnt meant to in the 1st place.

People should really take a step back and honestly question their own personal beliefs. I would say 90% of the posters on this thread are racists. In some form or other. I know I am. Dont mean to be and I fight it like Hell. But, PC Pedantry and self-righteousness - Rules.

Gibson, I think you make a good point about how we should question ourselves in order to be completely free of prejudice, but at the same time I think you're being a bit too glib regarding what actually happened.

I don't consider myself racist, for a start. My (not white) girlfriend doesn't think I am, either. I'm not with her to prove a point to anybody, she's just the person I happen to want to be with.

Yes there is always another side to the story, but I reserve the right to say when I'm unconvinced by the other side. I'm not saying I'm always right, but the comments by poissonrouge haven't convinced me of the alternatives.

I know in saying you think 90% on this thread are racist you are trying to get me to fully analyse what that entails, but personally I start from first principles and for me that means hatred. I don't have hatred for anyone, so I can't agree that I am, or anyone else who has contributed to this thread is, racist. Perhaps we have different definitions, which in itself highlights a problem.

Misguided, possibly, I'm always open to that possibility, life is about learning and constantly evolving for sure. But there has to come a time when you have to decide what you really believe, otherwise it's all a bit too wishy-washy. I believe in what I said on this thread.

For what its worth, I think it's more a generation thing. Ye were all full-grown adults when this PC thing started. It's something we've grown up with as children in terms of the values society gives us.

You're taught from a child, from as soon as you start school, that to use any sort racially charged language is inherently wrong and taboo. You're gonna get this sort of response.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with political correctness. It's basically not calling people names. I think I can get behind that.

Excellent post Grey. Stunning actually. Hatred-based racism. Now you are talking of the greatest danger of all... With some people, it runs deep and it also comes across in them posting across the internet. Even if they dont realise it.

I have become a tad anti-Muslim. Even if I have close Muslim friends. I cant help it. They, on the other hand, understand where I am coming from. We help each other understand our lost perceptions sometimes. I hope I am making some sense here.

I believe in love & respect for ALL. Even Munster fans. People who know me, think Im a soft, loved-up hippy. I am. But with reservations based on vast experience. Honesty and Truth shines through in the end. But we need to talk about it. Or it grows into a hidden cancer.

That is what I have been trying to say earlier - in a jokey way, but I should not diss peoples intelligence. Sorry if I have on here.

Respect 1st. Then comes the love,understanding and trust. Its how I reared my kids.

Unless you yourself have lived for a long time in a mixed race community it's pretty difficult then to know what it's like.

Cymroglan wrote:Unless you yourself have lived for a long time in a mixed race community it's pretty difficult then to know what it's like.

The thing is Cymro - I have. Purposely. Maybe thats the differ.

I think a lot of my perspective on- and voluble disdain for- prejudice comes from my own rearing in Northern Ireland and the toxic nature of sectarianism which can be seen first hand.

Cymro makes a good point, it is pretty hard to judge if you don't live in that community.

Notch wrote:For what its worth, I think it's more a generation thing. Ye were all full-grown adults when this PC thing started. It's something we've grown up with as children in terms of the values society gives us.

You're taught from a child, from as soon as you start school, that to use any sort racially charged language is inherently wrong and taboo. You're gonna get this sort of response.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with political correctness. It's basically not calling people names. I think I can get behind that.

Maybe so, but I don't think that is a good thing. You start to fear everything you say around people from "minorities", which surely is not the point.

So have I and that is why we are being realistic. What I found was that there was more bad feeling between Jamaicans and Africans than anybody else.
Am I a racist if I believe that people who move here should live by our laws and any thought of trying to get us to adopt their laws is out of order.

MBTGOG wrote:

Notch wrote:For what its worth, I think it's more a generation thing. Ye were all full-grown adults when this PC thing started. It's something we've grown up with as children in terms of the values society gives us.

You're taught from a child, from as soon as you start school, that to use any sort racially charged language is inherently wrong and taboo. You're gonna get this sort of response.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with political correctness. It's basically not calling people names. I think I can get behind that.

Maybe so, but I don't think that is a good thing. You start to fear everything you say around people from "minorities", which surely is not the point.

Do you really? I don't worry about that so much. Maybe I should, I don't know. I mainly try and find out if they are interested in rugby or music and ignore them if not

Notch wrote:For what its worth, I think it's more a generation thing. Ye were all full-grown adults when this PC thing started. It's something we've grown up with as children in terms of the values society gives us.

You're taught from a child, from as soon as you start school, that to use any sort racially charged language is inherently wrong and taboo. You're gonna get this sort of response.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with political correctness. It's basically not calling people names. I think I can get behind that.

This is so true and it has been graphically demonstrated in these posts. It, in itself is not a bad thing. I did it with my kids (and family - some who I consider ignorantly racist btw) - in a time when it was not cool in certain circles. I didnt see the need for a PC Officer to guide me. Ahead of my time? No, just a loving parent who wants his boys to integrate, respect and expect to be respected in return and try make it better.

Cymroglan wrote:Am I a racist if I believe that people who move here should live by our laws and any thought of trying to get us to adopt their laws is out of order.

No. But it seems pretty unlikely to happen anyway. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it

Cymroglan wrote:So have I and that is why we are being realistic. What I found was that there was more bad feeling between Jamaicans and Africans than anybody else.
Am I a racist if I believe that people who move here should live by our laws and any thought of trying to get us to adopt their laws is out of order.

I don't believe so. You don't mind them moving here so no.

Notch wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

Notch wrote:For what its worth, I think it's more a generation thing. Ye were all full-grown adults when this PC thing started. It's something we've grown up with as children in terms of the values society gives us.

You're taught from a child, from as soon as you start school, that to use any sort racially charged language is inherently wrong and taboo. You're gonna get this sort of response.

I don't think there's anything much wrong with political correctness. It's basically not calling people names. I think I can get behind that.

Maybe so, but I don't think that is a good thing. You start to fear everything you say around people from "minorities", which surely is not the point.

Do you really? I don't worry about that so much. Maybe I should, I don't know. I mainly try and find out if they are interested in rugby or music and ignore them if not

You worry about saying baboon in front of a black man, so I'm guessing you do even if you don't realise it.

No, I worry about calling a black man a baboon.

It's not like I'm going to have any concerns if we go to the zoo together like.

Or maybe the generational thing is that we oldies have seen more and so are more likely to accept that a word can be used in a non racist way?

A story.

A long while ago a man used a word on 606 which made me very sad. It hurt a lot. Thing is, I assumed (correctly) that he had used the word in a completely different way than the offensive use I knew. So I didn't complain to the mods or shout or sulk or talk about it on twitter. I gave him the benefit of he doubt.

I did explain the difficulty and discovered that he had never heard that word used in the way which hurt me. He also made me and him a promise to never use that word again.

I just think that we as a society have become so quick to take offence that we sometimes only change the words we use, instead of the attitudes and prejudice in our hearts.

Perhaps that is why so many seemed content to think,

"It was white South Africans who said it so it must be racist."

I dunno. Just don't like to see prejudice against anyone.

I don't think anyone is not accepting that the word baboon can be used in a non-racist way though? Was that ever on the table?

I think we're maintaining that calling somebody a baboon is rather different.

Its interesting to see the racism that exists within those we are expected to be PC with. India and their Caste System, puts upper-class British snobbery and racism to shame. Afro v Jamaican. Welsh v English. Yada yada.

I do believe, that in defending or castigating Leinster, we have shown the Leinster Way. Those Saffers will have learned a hard Irish/NH lesson. Us Irish have had enough of it, in our own History. We supported the massive minority of black Saffers, during a time when we were on our own knees.

My Mother has 3 Black home-helps. Lovely women. Warm, helpful, diligent in their job and friendly. One came in when I was there last week and de Ma looked up in surprise. "Are you Abby or Maria? Ah feick it, ye all look the same to me". She's 82.

Abby and I pished ourselves laughing. Maybe Abby should speak to Mujati. Tell him to get a life and move on. And an operation on that face. He's no Ali. No Tiger Woods. No Denzil Washington. He looks like a Ba....

poissonrouge wrote:Perhaps that is why so many seemed content to think,
"It was white South Africans who said it so it must be racist."

I dunno. Just don't like to see prejudice against anyone.

I'm afraid you are doing what you're asking us not to do, making an assumption based on a personal way of seeing things. I didn't think what I thought because of where the people involved were from, I believed it because the person who made the allegations sincerely believed he had been the victim of abuse. As I've said beore, I would have believed him regardless of whom he may have accused.

I actually think I would rather be called a baboon than a racist.

I know I'm white so that may not be very significant but it does worry me how quickly assumptions were jumped to on the character of these lads because of their ethnicity.

Isn't that where racism starts?

Notch wrote:No, I worry about calling a black man a baboon.

It's not like I'm going to have any concerns if we go to the zoo together like.

Phookin brilliant!

poissonrouge wrote:Or maybe the generational thing is that we oldies have seen more and so are more likely to accept that a word can be used in a non racist way?

A story.

A long while ago a man used a word on 606 which made me very sad. It hurt a lot. Thing is, I assumed (correctly) that he had used the word in a completely different way than the offensive use I knew. So I didn't complain to the mods or shout or sulk or talk about it on twitter. I gave him the benefit of he doubt.
I did explain the difficulty and discovered that he had never heard that word used in the way which hurt me. He also made me and him a promise to never use that word again.

I just think that we as a society have become so quick to take offence that we sometimes only change the words we use, instead of the attitudes and prejudice in our hearts.

Perhaps that is why so many seemed content to think,

"It was white South Africans who said it so it must be racist."

I dunno. Just don't like to see prejudice against anyone.

I was that person. Since we met... It does show a person actively looking and hyper-aware of it though pal. I have to be honest there. My meaning was misconstrued. We have come full-circle in this thread.

No! That is my point exactly. My first thought was that you had no intention of using that word in the way I have heard it used before.

Yes I was sensitive but my assumption was that you had intended no harm and I was right!

I just think we can all see insult when none is intended at times so we should give others the benefit of the doubt?

Gibson wrote:Its interesting to see the racism that exists within those we are expected to be PC with. India and their Caste System, puts upper-class British snobbery and racism to shame. Afro v Jamaican. Welsh v English. Yada yada.

I do believe, that in defending or castigating Leinster, we have shown the Leinster Way. Those Saffers will have learned a hard Irish/NH lesson. Us Irish have had enough of it, in our own History. We supported the massive minority of black Saffers, during a time when we were on our own knees.

My Mother has 3 Black home-helps. Lovely women. Warm, helpful, diligent in their job and friendly. One came in when I was there last week and de Ma looked up in surprise. "Are you Abby or Maria? Ah feick it, ye all look the same to me". She's 82.

Abby and I pished ourselves laughing. Maybe Abby should speak to Mujati. Tell him to get a life and move on. And an operation on that face. He's no Ali. No Tiger Woods. No Denzil Washington. He looks like a Ba....

poissonrouge wrote:I actually think I would rather be called a baboon than a racist.

I know I'm white so that may not be very significant but it does worry me how quickly assumptions were jumped to on the character of these lads because of their ethnicity.

Isn't that where racism starts?

Right on girl.

But... White? White? You are White-ish Pink and Red. Im pink with sproutjes(freckles). Ja and phookin proud of it too. Just dont call me Pink-ball. That really pishes me off and I will report it to all my friends in the IRFU roysh and the V2 Politburo. Yup. And I'm not jokin either.

I should also add that I have in the past accused someone on 606 of saying something "almost racist" which was an over reaction that I regret.

And no, it wasn't Gibson that time!

Rava!!!! (No it wasn't him either)

Would it be better to ignore you pal, just for old times sake like?

Notch wrote:I think a lot of my perspective on- and voluble disdain for- prejudice comes from my own rearing in Northern Ireland and the toxic nature of sectarianism which can be seen first hand.

Cymro makes a good point, it is pretty hard to judge if you don't live in that community.

I don't know about that. It is probably easier for an outsider/visitor to see what is going on.

I'm not sure if ignoring someone would be classed as racist Mrs P. , but I won't take exception if you do

I thought you were trying to get your own back there Rava!

Funny link on political correctness.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:But orange scum can pretty much only be used in an offensive way. You can see a baboon in the zoo.

Rubbish - why do you think its considered racist when bananas are thrown at black footballer players. Surely they are just being nice to them? Or when soccer crowds make monkey noises? (A massive problem in Spain I believe).

Baboons, monkeys etc. have a recognised racist connotation to them when used in association with non-whites in a similar way, but opposite in direction that Lions are regarded to be a positive association with people.

I'd be pretty sure that the Leinster front row might say some very offensive things to the Ulster front row (and other way around), but I would be shocked to hear that any sectarian comments would be used by either front row to get an edge because they would know that would not be on in this island.

Funny this. If I'd have confronted the issues like this with such honesty and openness as has been argued here I'd have been hounded out as a disruptive influence.

It's because you're black Portnoys.