Leinster to investigate racism claims

by Shifty Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:57 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0827/mujati.html

Leinster are holding a "full internal investigation" after Northampton prop Brian Mujati claimed he was the subject of racist remarks during last night's pre-season friendly at Donnybrook.

Mujati, 26, made the allegations on Twitter this morning. He later removed the postings, in which he claimed the remarks had come from Leinster prop Heinke van der Merwe and lock Steven Sykes.
Press Association Sport understands that Van der Merwe and Sykes deny the allegations.

The only comment that Leinster would make was in a statement which said: "Following allegations made by a Northampton Saints player this morning via his personal Twitter account, Leinster Rugby are holding a full internal investigation.

"The managements of both teams are in close communication and hopefully the matter will be resolved as soon as possible.

"No further comment will be made at this time until that resolution has been reached."

Zimbabwe-born Mujati, who has won 12 caps for South Africa, was clearly upset when he posted on the social networking site.
A Northampton spokesman told Press Association Sport:

"The club takes any allegations like this very seriously. We will be talking to the player concerned about it and contacting Leinster.
We will not make any further comment at this time."

The Rugby Football Union have confirmed that because the alleged incident took place on Irish soil it falls outside of their jurisdiction.

The IRFU have said they are in touch with Leinster and Northampton on the matter.

by Thomond Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:14 pm

Notch,comedians do have to be careful,Chris Rock could probably make jokes about white people but Ricky Gervais was castigated for making some crude jokes at an awards show last year. I'm not condoning racism,it's disgusting but it can seem like double standards at times.

by Sin é Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:32 pm

Gibson wrote:In fairness, he does look a wee bit like a baboon tho. Phook im, if he cant take a joke. All white Saffers are insufferable dicks. Even they know that. Leo Cullen looks like Plug from the Bash St Kids. Tomais O Leary looks like a rat. Brian Moore is an ugly basterd. Who gives a phook? Look around ye. The World is falling apart around ye and ye lot are speculating trying to bring down Leinster's name. Pathetic. Example, I hope 1F gets done for being a street thug. How do ye like dem apples?

Get a Life will ye? Get some perpsective.

Sorry Gibbo, you are nieve. The Netherlands may regard everyone as equal, but its not the same elsewhere. I spent sometime in Australia, a country where they would not be regarded as racist, but I was fairly shocked at their attitute to Asians in general and the Aborigines in particular.

I would expect all the Irish provinces to be totally intolerant of that attitude.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:37 pm

Thomond wrote:Notch,comedians do have to be careful,Chris Rock could probably make jokes about white people but Ricky Gervais was castigated for making some crude jokes at an awards show last year. I'm not condoning racism,it's disgusting but it can seem like double standards at times.

I'm fine with jokes about racism. Problem is, due to a lack of understanding about the dynamics of stand-up comedy, some people take what is said in a stand-up comedy routine at face value. Nothing said in a stand-ups routine should be taken seriously, by definition.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:38 pm

Of course, Gervais is gonna open himself up to all sorts of problems due to the fact he isn't actually funny Whistle

by Sin é Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:51 pm

I'd also feel Leinster are doing no favours to the likes of Ollie le Roux, Rickard Straus, Shaun Payne*, Johann Muller, BJ Botha, Wian De Preez by shoving this under the carpet.

We all know Champagne is NOT racist.

Personally think that Sykes seems to be a bad apple. There were no problems with VDM before this.

by flankertye Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:13 pm

Notch wrote:Of course, Gervais is gonna open himself up to all sorts of problems due to the fact he isn't actually funny

Completely agree. How that man is held in such high regard I'll never know.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:18 pm

Sin é wrote:Personally think that Sykes seems to be a bad apple. There were no problems with VDM before this.

How can you possibly know that about Van Der Merwe- or Sykes? The conduct of the Ulster Saffers has been exemplary on and off the pitch, but I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. We can't make inferences based on the limited information available.

I think this has been handled pretty badly though. No public apology for one thing. No clarification on whether one would be necessary. No clarification on what actually happened apart from a second hand report that apparently the the Leinster pack which contains just two Saffers and six Irishmen seem to be using potentially inflammatory Afrikaans words for their calls.

But I still think it's rather unfair to cast aspersions on the character of these two guys based on what we know for certain. There are suspicions swirling around the incident which will now neither be proved or disproved. So it will always be a bit of a black mark, yes, since it hasn't been properly addressed but I don't think its fair to single the two players in question out based on flimsy hearsay.

by poissonrouge Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:28 pm

Poor choice of words there pal?

Whistle

by Sin é Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:36 pm

Hang on a second Notch, I've pointed out that the incident involving VDM & Sykes brings all those great Saffers into disrepute. Only thing that I've pointed out is that VDM has behaved himself up to now.

My main point was that, Munster & Ulster Rugby, when faced with such allegations, had no problem defemding them.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:45 pm

Fair enough. I was more struck by the comments on Sykes being a bad apple. We don't really know that.

by Gibson Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:56 pm

Sin é wrote:
Gibson wrote:In fairness, he does look a wee bit like a baboon tho. Phook im, if he cant take a joke. All white Saffers are insufferable dicks. Even they know that. Leo Cullen looks like Plug from the Bash St Kids. Tomais O Leary looks like a rat. Brian Moore is an ugly basterd. Who gives a phook? Look around ye. The World is falling apart around ye and ye lot are speculating trying to bring down Leinster's name. Pathetic. Example, I hope 1F gets done for being a street thug. How do ye like dem apples?

Get a Life will ye? Get some perpsective.

Sorry Gibbo, you are nieve. The Netherlands may regard everyone as equal, but its not the same elsewhere. I spent sometime in Australia, a country where they would not be regarded as racist, but I was fairly shocked at their attitute to Asians in general and the Aborigines in particular.

I would expect all the Irish provinces to be totally intolerant of that attitude.

Naieve? Me? Nah, just call me Niamh. I'm really enjoying this.People are saying so much about themselves. Thou Doth protest too much.

by Gibson Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:13 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOnkv76rNL4

by Gibson Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:27 pm

poissonrouge wrote:
This whole thing is disturbing.

Apart from the obvious distaste that anyone should suffer racial abuse on a rugby pitch it also throws up some other confusing questions for me.

When it comes down to it , it should not be any more or less acceptable to call any one a baboon regardless of the colour of their skin and yet the one man who felt it was aimed at him was black. Whilst I can understand that this may be because that word has been used as a term of abuse to him in the past, it seems racist in itself to see it as abusive only to the man with black skin.

I'm not sure if I have explained my confusion very well but I will reiterate that I am absolutely opposed to anyone being judged by the colour of their skin.

No confusion MrsP. You know.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:39 pm

You're a bit glib on this thread to be honest Gibbo. Issues not really about the terms used but the attitudes expressed. A word in itself has no power, its nothing. A word can't be offensive by itself, by itself its nothing. What makes it powerful is the context in which its used. What obviously upset Mujati was how it was used. The attitudes it reflects.

by Gibson Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:49 pm

Notch wrote:You're a bit glib on this thread to be honest Gibbo. Issues not really about the terms used but the attitudes expressed. A word in itself has no power, its nothing. A word can't be offensive by itself, by itself its nothing. What makes it powerful is the context in which its used. What obviously upset Mujati was how it was used. The attitudes it reflects.

More information. Keep going. Its illucidating. Mujati is living and is using the past as a weapon. He's using an old trick. So easy to say.So hard to defend. If he wants South Africa to grow, he needs to grow. Norn Iron, Been there with my Jamaican friend, just last week. Frightening ignorance. There is no escape from this web of truth. Covered up by latter-day, pretentious, self-righteous, PC attitudes. Id best stop. I'm too Niamh to tell the real truth.

I was a Mick Bomber in Lahndan in the 70's. Got so much abuse you will never understand. I took it. Then shoved it up their arrses. I moved on. So should Mujati.

by **Notch** Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:59 pm

Nah, you're just... talking a bit of shoite really as far as I can tell. There's not much coherence to these posts atm so it's hard to tell. With my friends we say things that would be offensive if we weren't joking all the time. Make jokes out of the supposed sectarian divide. Use words that would be offensive in some other context all the time. We don't go out, however, and throw sectarian abuse around unironically. Wouldn't genuinely try and use language to wound and hurt. Would have nothing but contempt for those who do. Can't believe you'd be any different.

I've got a creeping suspicion that this is your point but you're not really getting it across very well. I'm struggling to make sense of your posts.

Not really sure how you suggest genuine sectarianism is covered up by PC attitudes? Being against abusive behaviour is... covering up abusive behaviour? Is that your point? Illuminate me. You're not making sense.

by **Notch** Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:06 am

Gibson wrote:I was a Mick Bomber in Lahndan in the 70's. Got so much abuse you will never understand. I took it. I shoved it up their arrses. I moved on. So should Mujati.

If his side of the story is true (big if right?) all he did is name and shame the guys involved. I think thats a pretty good example to set. Exposing prejudice where you find it. Publicly embarrass the guilty parties.

by Gibson Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:10 am

Notch,
You are struggling, because your Niamh, pseudo-intellectual self and everything you know and believe, is being challenged. Your attempt at patronising, is laughable to those who know.Just watch, learn and grow. :dressedorange:

by **Notch** Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:12 am

What?

I'm not being challenged because I don't understand what your point is. I have no idea what your opinion or position is based on your posts.

If anything, I'm getting the impression you agree with me.

by Gibson Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:16 am

Notch wrote:
Gibson wrote:I was a Mick Bomber in Lahndan in the 70's. Got so much abuse you will never understand. I took it. I shoved it up their arrses. I moved on. So should Mujati.

If his side of the story is true (big if right?) all he did is name and shame the guys involved. I think thats a pretty good example to set. Exposing prejudice where you find it. Publicly embarrass the guilty parties.

The Dutch colonoised South Africa. I have a lot of Saffer mates over here. They are cunst. But real. Believe me. We have taken this to the very core.

Notch man, best leave it for now. My thoughts need to talk to you over a pint. The written word wont do anymore. Suffice it to say, that I love our conversations on everything and nothing. Huh?

Believe.

by Gibson Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:17 am

Notch wrote:What?

I'm not being challenged because I don't understand what your point is. I have no idea what your opinion or position is based on your posts.

If anything, I'm getting the impression you agree with me.

Bless.

by **Notch** Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:18 am

Fair enough, I think? I have no idea whats going on like. Best get to bed anyway

by Kingshu Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 am

reading that back, I think someone was on the sauce last night. Very Happy

by geoff998rugby Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 am

Sin é wrote:Hang on a second Notch, I've pointed out that the incident involving VDM & Sykes brings all those great Saffers into disrepute. Only thing that I've pointed out is that VDM has behaved himself up to now.

My main point was that, Munster & Ulster Rugby, when faced with such allegations, had no problem defemding them.

I don't know the details of the Munster incident but I do know the details of the Ulster incidences.
McCullough used the term 'Spide' which is an NI insult meaning Chav, Yob, Scally. However overlaid with an NI accent its misinterpretation is obvious. The other is in similar. The crowd here have a tradition of calling out 'dodgy dodgy kicker' prior the kicker taking the kick (not during the kick I might add and also not only away kickers if the mood takes them). Again the accent means it can sound like kigger with again obvious misinterpretations.

Neither of these incidence in is any way equatable with using the Afrikaan word 'Baboon' with a SA Black player in the opponents side. Ulster have shown they are prepared to take a hard line when the conduct of a player is unacceptable e.g. Neil Best and Roger Wilson.

As to the personalities of the SA players I am 100% convinced Pienaer and Muller would be absolutely appalled at this.
I cannot comment for Wannenburg, Botha or Diack as I have not come into contact with them enough.

by Sin é Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:40 am

Just for the record - the Munster incident. Shane Williams accused Marcus Horan of calling one of their players the 'N' word. This was back in the day (2004) when there was no independent citing officer and clubs cited each other. Munster had cited Richard Mustoe for stamping Marcus Horan and the Os counter cited Horan for racially abusing Elvis Sevalai'l (comment was heard by Shane Williams).

Anyway it was proven that since Shane Williams was no where within the vicinity of Marcus Horan to have actually hear him make it, it was thrown out. The Citing Commision went as far as to say that the alleged remark had never been made. (This false allegation of racism is one of the main reasons why the Os are detested by Munster).

Statement from Munster at the time:
"We are particularly pleased that the Disciplinary Committee has ruled that in the case of an alleged racial abuse charge, the words were in fact not spoken by Marcus. However we are bitterly disappointed that such a serious allegation, which has cast a slur on the good name of Marcus Horan, was only raised by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys in response to Munster's citing of Richard Mustoe. We believe that the actions taken in this instance by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys have no place in sport."

The Horan incident is why there is now independent citing commissions. If the Leinster game wasn't a friendly I suspect it would not have been brushed under the carpet.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:49 am

Sin é wrote:Just for the record - the Munster incident. Shane Williams accused Marcus Horan of calling one of their players the 'N' word. This was back in the day (2004) when there was no independent citing officer and clubs cited each other. Munster had cited Richard Mustoe for stamping Marcus Horan and the Os counter cited Horan for racially abusing Elvis Sevalai'l (comment was heard by Shane Williams).

Anyway it was proven that since Shane Williams was no where within the vicinity of Marcus Horan to have actually hear him make it, it was thrown out. The Citing Commision went as far as to say that the alleged remark had never been made. (This false allegation of racism is one of the main reasons why the Os are detested by Munster).

Statement from Munster at the time:
"We are particularly pleased that the Disciplinary Committee has ruled that in the case of an alleged racial abuse charge, the words were in fact not spoken by Marcus. However we are bitterly disappointed that such a serious allegation, which has cast a slur on the good name of Marcus Horan, was only raised by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys in response to Munster's citing of Richard Mustoe. We believe that the actions taken in this instance by the Neath-Swansea Ospreys have no place in sport."

The Horan incident is why there is now independent citing commissions. If the Leinster game wasn't a friendly I suspect it would not have been brushed under the carpet.

Never knew this story, wow that is pretty bent isn't it!?
That's a horrible instance of targetting someone reputation for no reason other than to get yourself out of jail.

We don't know however if there was an actual incident now though or if it was fabricated, surely if Mujati had made claims and felt he had a case Northampton wouldn't just drop them would they?

by thebandwagonsociety Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:44 pm

Everyone seems to be jumping the gun a bit here. Quick to pre-judge the situation and dish out life sentences. I don't have all the facts but a lot of people here jumping on assumptions about Sykes character, Leinster as an organisation, etc. It even appears in some of these comments that Northampton would allow an actual instance of racial abuse towards one of their players (nay one of their marquee players) to be dismissed out of hand.

I think the main item coming out of this is that the independent citing commission should have scope to adjudicate and sort out any issues coming out of pre-season 'friendlies'. That would remove some of the innuendo and hearsay that comes out of these kind of incidents.

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:50 pm

We also have to take into account that no matter what was said no formal complaint was made, Mujati made his comments on twitter, what are Leinster supposed to do if people make comments on twitter and no formal complaint comes out of it?

by HERSH Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:53 pm

I think some of you are jumping the gun, its far too soon to judge on this subject.

Gervais's new show might be funny.

by geoff998rugby Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:22 pm

Thansk Sin e I remember it now.

Thought at the time that it stunk with respect to the way Ospreys conducted themselves.

by Kingshu Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:59 pm

Ospreys the team everyone loves to hate.

Think they may have changed a bit now, but it's good to dislike a rival team

by **Notch** Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:01 pm

They did disgrace themselves with that episode right enough.

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:16 pm

Just read this on Leinsterfans....

word is that the scrum call excuse is a legit one. It comes from the Natal sharks. if the opposition tighthead is boring in they have a call whereby our loose head allows an extra bit of wriggle room to allow the second row to give him a decent punch in the face.

Apparently, in the internal inquiry they rang Tendai Mtwari and he confirmed that baboon was a call they use.

by Cymroglan Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:18 pm

This is not about the Ospreys.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:21 pm

Did Mujati play for Natal?

Did Skyes play between VDM and Cronin?

If the answer to these two is yes then Mujati has made a very nasty mountain out of an entirely innocent molehill.

by MBTGOG Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:23 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Did Mujati play for Natal?

Did Skyes play between VDM and Cronin?

If the answer to these two is yes then Mujati has made a very nasty mountain out of an entirely innocent molehill.

Mujati played for Western Province and the Stormers.

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:25 pm

Neither VDM nor Mujati played for sharks. But Sykes was making the call.
And Sykes did pack down between Cronin and VDM.

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:27 pm

This would also explain why Leinster didn’t release any more information in the statement.

“we have found that neither Heinke nor Steven made any racial remarks but they were conspiring to punch Brian Mujati in the face…”

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:34 pm

Makes sense, dark arts of the front row I guess.

If Mujati knew the call or had played for the Sharks then it would be very uncool him making those statements.

Guess it goes down as a plain and simple misunderstanding then.

by D24tress Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Mick as a prop myself i have to say that if it was to conspire to punch him in the face for boring in and not racism i will be very happy.

Also if it is true it shows that equality is alive and well

Doesnt matter if your black white cuban or asian, you try something in the scrum you'll get a box in the mouth.

also if anyone doubted that sykes was going to be hines replacement as enforcer, its been answered

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:45 pm

"also if anyone doubted that sykes was going to be hines replacement as enforcer, its been answered"

Haha I like the way you think D24 as long as he is closer to Hines than Botha I am happy (attitude wise)

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:50 pm

D24tress wrote:Mick as a prop myself i have to say that if it was to conspire to punch him in the face for boring in and not racism i will be very happy.

Also if it is true it shows that equality is alive and well

Doesnt matter if your black white cuban or asian, you try something in the scrum you'll get a box in the mouth.

also if anyone doubted that sykes was going to be hines replacement as enforcer, its been answered

Nice one Will Smith! Wink

You’re dead right though, reading that has made me feel a LOT better about all of this. It’s a word that’s genuinely used as a trigger call, it was confirmed independently by a former team mate of Sykes, who is also black so I’m sure his motives would not be to cover up for a racist, and it makes sense that Leinster had to release a vague statement. Case closed as far as I’m concerned.

by geoff998rugby Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:52 pm

So like all the slurs against Irish provinces in recent years - a big pile of nothing with no basis in fact. vomit

by Mickado Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:27 pm

Good to see all those rushing to condemn Leinster are in an equal hurry to take their statements back.

by **Notch** Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:28 pm

Sounds like a fairly honest mistake then.

by MBTGOG Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:33 pm

Mickado wrote:Good to see all those rushing to condemn Leinster are in an equal hurry to take their statements back.

I said nothing, want me to take that back? I really don't mind if it helps set example to the others Whistle

by greybeard Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:34 pm

Mickado wrote:Good to see all those rushing to condemn Leinster are in an equal hurry to take their statements back.

Don't worry I'm still here Cool

Well, it's a plausible reason and one I can go along with.

My original stance was the defence didn't hold up and Occams Razor would suggest with such a flimsy press release from Leinster would suggest there was still scope for this being racially motivated because something was obviously being covered up. With new evidence I am happy to take back what I said, because now the most sensible answer would seem to be the trigger call. Especially in light of why Leinster would not want to go into details regarding pre-planned triggers involving punching opposition players. It makes sense.

This has still been badly handled.

by Thomond Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:36 pm

Well, that's good news then. Notch,The Office is good and his shows with Karl Pilkington are decent,mainly because of Karl Pilkington. Stephen Merchant is probably funnier. I have seen little of Gervais' standup but it wasn't very good.

by D24tress Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:37 pm

Haha mick when I wrote that I was wondering would someone pick up on the will smith line Cool

by Thomond Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:41 pm

I think we should take a leaf out of Flight of the Conchords' book: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs_rXxi0zhM

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