NZ v Tonga - match thread

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

First topic message reminder :

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BBC text: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9583206.stm

Radio commentary - http://www.radiosport.co.nz/

[nathan]

Tonga seem to be playing a bit better now, wonder if we'll see another try from them with 5 minutes left.

[TheGreyGhost]

Officials allowing the game to be slowed down here. Bad signs for the cup if it's not stamped out.

[Jaysus]

Come on TONGA!!

Winning the second half, well done lads. Really got worried for Tonga after the first half.

Keep going

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Boric on with his Blues teammate and McCaw goes to 8 and Vito at 7 and Whitelock at 6. This will do wonders for continuity!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Officials allowing the game to be slowed down here. Bad signs for the cup if it's not stamped out.

BINGO!

[nathan]

Officials allowing the game to be slowed down here. Bad signs for the cup if it's not stamped out.

i know what you mean, NZ have been laying on the ball a few times and not releasing.

[Cari]

Did you all see that Tongan fan running up and down the stairs? Best post try celebration I've seen today

[Portnoy]

I'm enjoying this contest - rapier, bludgeon, foil and wrecking ball rugby.

Great stuff.

[Biltong]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

[flyhalffactory]

Henry will not be happy with the second half performance

Been impressed SBW throughout

[nathan]

nice try by NZ! almost too easy!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Officials allowing the game to be slowed down here. Bad signs for the cup if it's not stamped out.

i know what you mean, NZ have been laying on the ball a few times and not releasing.

Hardly suprising theyd want to slow it down though given they have a comfortable lead and Tonga are fionaly getting their own attacking game together.

Bad sign for teh cup if Wayne Barnes isnt going to be allowed to sort this lot out.

[Cari]

Nonu in with a try under the sticks.

[TheGreyGhost]

I liked the way the English commentator just said "There's a lesson, if someone's off the ball, take him out. You can't let guys run on without the ball." Crikey? Really?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Lazy one-off running from the NZ forwards, gets scrappy and takes some Nonu straight running and nice double round from Slade and try to Nonu.

This just goes to show how the PI teams lift their game when things are going well. They have plenty of support.

[Biltong]

The All Blacks should thank tonga, they gave them a decent work out, none of that 70-0 stuff.

[nottins]

McCaw offside at a ruck ? How dare Clancey penalise him.

[Biltong]

Very well done tonga, you made your island proud.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I liked the way the English commentator just said "There's a lesson, if someone's off the ball, take him out. You can't let guys run on without the ball." Crikey? Really?

Learn form the All Blacks......

At leats tehya re talking tactics now, earlier we learnt that Dan Carter has a left foot.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Very well done tonga, you made your island proud.

Well most of them are from New Zealand.....

[TheGreyGhost]

I like the way the officials just stopped pinging Tonga for crooked throws because there were so many of them.

That kind of selective enforcing of rules is what causes the game structure to break down. I just despair, really I do.

[doctor_grey]

Well,
The ABs made plenty of mistaes and still recorded a solid win. GH cannot be happy, and I am sure the ABs will be tighter when handling the ball next time out. But I am happy Tonga recorded their try. Sound about right folks?

[Cari]

41 - 10 FT.

Peter SW - one of the Tongans is a Turk

[TheGreyGhost]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

To be fair Biltong everyone struggles against intensity and physicality.

But the thing that frustrates me again is the random refereeing of the breakdown lottery. Four offensive break down penalties against NZ for very little, this is not what PDB asked for in the tournament. The NH refs look set to drift back into northern mode.

We've got crooked Tongan throws being missed and that massive off-side hit on DC was telegraphed.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Wales and South Africa have a game first up against each other but they should look at this match in terms of the games coming up for them. Tonga showed that if they keep their shape and get their confidence up and get enough ball, they have belief and are a handful.

That was ugly from the ABs in the second half. They lost the forward exchanges really and couldn´t get enough ball to dictate play. Hats off to Tonga who came out from the break hungry and fired up. Let´s take nothing away from their strong second half performance. Plenty of work for NZ but this was a game they needed. The Tongans have done them a favour by giving them a good hit out and giving them plenty to think about.

[nottins]

TGG in blaming referee shocker

[rodders]

Haven't seen the game but if NZ have struggled a bit then thats good for them. In past WC's they've peaked far too early and blown everyone away in the group stages only to run out of steam in the latter half of the tournament.

NZ need to save their best form for the KO stages so if the stutter a bit in group stages then that might not be a bad thing.

That said I think most teams would be reasonably happy to get their WC started with a 41-10 victory.

[Biltong]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

To be fair Biltong everyone struggles against intensity and physicality.

But the thing that frustrates me again is the random refereeing of the breakdown lottery. Four offensive break down penalties against NZ for very little, this is not what PDB asked for in the tournament. The NH refs look set to drift back into northern mode.

We've got crooked Tongan throws being missed and that massive off-side hit on DC was telegraphed.

Ghost I have basically given up on trying to see how referees officiate breakdowns, but the other one that gets my nuts tight is the penalties at scrum time.

I really do hope that these issues can be reworked post RWC.

But for all those reasons you mention, territory is most likely the most important aspect of the RWC.

In your own half those erratic random decisions will cost you points

[Biltong]

Haven't seen the game but if NZ have struggled a bit then thats good for them. In past WC's they've peaked far too early and blown everyone away in the group stages only to run out of steam in the latter half of the tournament.

NZ need to save their best form for the KO stages so if the stutter a bit in group stages then that might not be a bad thing.

That said I think most teams would be reasonably happy to get their WC started with a 41-10 victory.

I agree, run away victories will not help them at all.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Biltong it just goes to show how attitude is important as well. ABs came out and played pretty well in the first half. Forwards came out in the second half and looked lacklustre. Plenty of changes from the bench, which didn´t help with combinations. Read was missed out there tonight. Vito is no equal replacement. Nice to see Slade come on and look solid.

But it would´ve been pointless for an 80 point blow out. Tonga gave them a good game and wised up on defence on the right and didn´t give any soft tries away.

Henry gave them 5/10 for that performance. That seems fair enough. A lot for them to build on. It´lll be a different squad for Japan and more of a chance to see some fringe players. France game will see a similar squad with Smith, Muliaina back in the squad. Will be interesting to see if Dagg or Kahui find a way into the squad. Dagg showed in the second half how he can be caught out which better sides will punish.

[TheGreyGhost]

Toeava is a strong runner, but he always cuts back in field on the one on one. It looked like his Tongan counterpart knew exactly what he was going to do when he shut down what should have been a simple run in.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

But the thing that frustrates me again is the random refereeing of the breakdown lottery. Four offensive break down penalties against NZ for very little, this is not what PDB asked for in the tournament. The NH refs look set to drift back into northern mode.

By very little you mean something, such as a penalty offence?

[Biltong]

Kia, the things I would think Henry will have to work on is the consistency of performance from the all Black squad.

This is now two games in succession where they have only perfromed in 40 of the 80 minutes.

In Australia they slept throught he first half, or to put it more politely allowed australia to dominate, now this time round it was the second half.

My other concern for the All Blacks are I am not sure that Henry is yet comfortable with the positions of the back line.

He has pretty much sorted 9, 10 and 15.

But currently nonu has played 12 and 13 in recent matches.
Guildford ahs played 11 and 14.
Kahui 11 and 13

To me it seems he is still searching for his best combinations.

[Great White]

TGG in blaming referee shocker

A Bookie wouldn't even give you odds on it anymore

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I don´t think Toeava did himself any favours in that match. Kahui looked the most solid out there from the back three even though Dagg looked the most likely to make a play but too many times he got found out trying to force a play. In the tight games you need a game breaker but you also need somebody who isn´t going to make silly errors. I´m still not decided on him. Will Mils start against Japan - so he can get his 100th game for France - and Dagg move to the left wing where NZ seem to be struggling? Probably Toeava will be persevered with and maybe put on the right wing but for the knockout games I just don´t get a good feeling with him. Jane has proven to be solid in the high pressure games and Dagg might be a good shout with Kahui on the bench. SBW just shouldn´t split up that Nonu Smith combination. Smith is class and experienced and Nonu is in good form but looks better at 12.

[TheGreyGhost]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

But the thing that frustrates me again is the random refereeing of the breakdown lottery. Four offensive break down penalties against NZ for very little, this is not what PDB asked for in the tournament. The NH refs look set to drift back into northern mode.

By very little you mean something, such as a penalty offence?

Well there's something penalisable going on at most rucks Seabiscuit. It's which somethings the refs choose to ping. If you're going to allow high impact clean outs, then you'll get guys off their feet. It seems wrong to allow this in defence and not in attack, which is really what was happening. Especially when not applied consistently for 80 minutes.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

It just shows that even the All Blacks struggle against intensity and physicality.

The tongans are showing other teams how to play the all Blacks, as soon as Tonga started playing with their forwards, pick and drive style they became effective.

The All Blacks, Sa and now tonga have shown this is the most effective way of controlling possession.

But the thing that frustrates me again is the random refereeing of the breakdown lottery. Four offensive break down penalties against NZ for very little, this is not what PDB asked for in the tournament. The NH refs look set to drift back into northern mode.

By very little you mean something, such as a penalty offence?

Well there's something penalisable going on at most rucks Seabiscuit. It's which somethings the refs choose to ping. If you're going to allow high impact clean outs, then you'll get guys off their feet. It seems wrong to allow this in defence and not in attack, which is really what was happening. Especially when not applied consistently for 80 minutes.

True they did get away with a lot in defence as well as attack.

[Biltong]

Yes, I think this is your best back line combination.

9.Cowan but if he struggles bring on Weepu
10.Carter
11.Kahui
12.Nonu
13.Smith
14.Jane
15.Dagg

[R!skysports]

I think the break down is always going to be a tough one, as the teams are so well trained at slowing the ball down it is tough for refs.

Thought NZ were lucky not to get someone binned for the repeated offences at the scrum near the end. Wasted about 7 mins of time. Would not have changed the results, but certainly did not think the ref was against NZ as some people seem to think

[TheGreyGhost]

I think the lack of consistency you are mentioning is a product of the lack of settled combinations again. There's a lot of interchange going on during the games and across games we've again seen Henry tinkering endlessly.

At some stage, an assertive incorrect decision is better than no decision at all.

Henry's tried so many guys in so many positions now with so many mixed results that I wonder if he's learned anything at all. He needs to look back to the EOYT and 3N last year and see how the combinations evolved and settled.

Agree we missed Read. Vito went missing in the second 40.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I quite agree Biltong.

NZ need to put in those complete performances like the first two 3N teams at home this year. I am still confident they can do that. As others and myself have pointed out, no need to play your best rugby in this part of the tournament. We need to be building throughout the tournament.

I agree that Henry is still unsure about his combinations and that has to do with his selections. He is persisting in Guilford and didn´t let Hosea Gear a chance to play some footy in the away 3N games. This after saying last year in the autumn series that he is the best winger in the world.

I think SBW is playing to see if he can have a role on the bench. No way Smith and Nonu partnership will be broken up. Kahui seems a better shout coming off the bench and he is still unsure about Dagg. His best position is at fullback but Mils is too solid there, albeit not in the form he had last year.

So to me this is lack of foresight from Henry in the 3N away games and stubborn persistence in players like Toeava, Guilford (add Donald to that list).

That said, there is still a lot of rugby before the knockout stages. NZ have plenty to work on and in a way it´s good that we still have our best to come.

[nathan]

GG, Please don't turn this thread into a "NZ were cheated again by a NH ref", it gets so boring reading it over and over..

[TheGreyGhost]

If that second half performance crops up again though, we'll be hiding up country while the final is going on.

[Biltong]

Yes, I think his biggest mistake was not to want Hosea Gear.

I am sure that the All Blacks can only improve from here on, but i am seriously starting to wonder whether Henry has learnt any lessons from 2007.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

At some stage, an assertive incorrect decision is better than no decision at all.

Like for example a TMO saying "that definatly was a forward pass" is better than Clancy not making the call?

[TheGreyGhost]

GG, Please don't turn this thread into a "NZ were cheated again by a NH ref", it gets so boring reading it over and over..

Then stop arguing about it. I didn't like the fickle offensive ruck penalty rulings (very '07), or taking the foot off the crooked line out feeds. I mentioned it. If everyone jumps in and tried to defend the ref, it becomes a bun fight. It's my opinion, get over it.

[Biltong]

Getting back to the topic at hand, it is good to have competition for positions, but there comes a time where a coach needs to have his players know who is his best.

If he doesn't do that they can't settle and will always perform with that thought in their mind of pressure for places.

Just take the springbok back line as an example, no matter the quality of PDV's coaching, the players know who is the number 1 choice in every position.

[GunsGerms]

Listened to the game on Radio sport 1332 Auckland. Must say the commentary and coverage including post match interviews was first class. Recommend!

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Well we shall see later on in the tournament when he has to start playing his A squad.

I think that with the players he has available at the moment, and with Read hopefully back in the mix, his best team is.

1. Woodcock. 2. Mealamu 3. O Franks
4. Thorn 5. Williams
6. Kaino 7. McCaw 8. Read
9 Cowan 10 Carter
12 Nonu 13 Smith
11 Dagg 14 Jane 15 Mils

Bench: Hore, Whitelock (more for his cover of blindside and lock), Thomson (no standout loose option for me), Weepu, Slade and Kahui

Carter seemed to be nursing a wrist or forearm. Hope there´s nothing in that. He should be rested against Japan or at least be on the bench.

You can´t plan for injuries but you can try to play your top guys regularly. We got a good hit out against Tonga and Canada should give us some physicality in the forwards. France are an enigma but this pool is a lot better than previous years.

[TheGreyGhost]

Good points.

In the backs, frankly NZ has a plethora of right wings, centers and full backs. Each on their day may do something special that none of the others might. I think Henry just has to set his cart out and pick his best combination and back them strongly from the bench and stop messing around.

The areas of concern are undoubtably at 9, where Cowan is too jittery and Weepu has come back a bit pedestrian; and on the left wing where we suddenly don't have a powerful direct finisher for the first time in decades.

Nonu was immense again. If NZ do win the cup I can see him being the man of the tournament.

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