Rooney Rule - Is it discrimination?

There are calls for English leagues to introuduce the "Rooney" Rule to ensure that ethnic managers are given the opportunity for a managers role. Apparenty clubs would be forced to interview at least one candidate from an ethnic background for the vacancy, Is this fair?

If candidates are being shortlisted for a position and they just happen to be all white should an ethnic candidate be shortlisted as well just because of this rule? especially if they may have been another white candidate who is better suited? Would this not be discrimination?

What are your thoughts?

What's the source for this?

There aren't a lot of good ethnic managers, if they start producing some more we wouldn't have to talk about a ule as stupid as this one.

How is it discrimination? It isn't making a football club hire a black manager it is only there to help them make the interview stage, it is often the clubs who are discriminating by not even considering a good CV from a black person who aims to be a manager. I do think you need to accept that dozens of football clubs are often avoiding this situation to appease their large groups of racist fans...

Rooney's not even black

Electric Demon wrote:Rooney's not even black

Comes from the NFL about a white man who gave black people a chance to manage.

Blackburn did that with Paul Ince, and look how that turned out

I don't know the answer, but out of 92 league clubs there are 2 black managers, that is 1 in 46. Out of all the players in the football league, I wonder what the ratio of black players was around 10 years ago.

I am looking in the past as most managers are former players so players playing about 10 years ago are now at the age to think about management.

I wonder what the difference in the numbers would be. Stats like 2 in 92 look bad, but it depends on the overall statistics as well!

Enforcer wrote:I don't know the answer, but out of 92 league clubs there are 2 black managers, that is 1 in 46. Out of all the players in the football league, I wonder what the ratio of black players was around 10 years ago.

From a quick google, in 2004 20% of the Football league players were black. So surely by around 2020 we can see a rise in black coaches.

But does it matter what colour they are? If we can get a good group of young, British managers and coaches then I'm happy.

dondelero wrote:If candidates are being shortlisted for a position and they just happen to be all white should an ethnic candidate be shortlisted as well just because of this rule? especially if they may have been another white candidate who is better suited? Would this not be discrimination?

What are your thoughts?

To be honest, there are similar laws like this in general recruitment. Companies have to be able to provide details of volume of applicants, short-listed and interviewed applicants. If there is a trend of mass rejection due to age, sex, religion, ethnicity etc then they have to explain their actions.

Also regarding the exact quote above there is no maximum number of people that you can interview so including an ethnic candidate is not going to cost a caucasian candidate their place.

Don't agree with affirmative action. Take someone on their merits.

Celtic Warrior wrote:

dondelero wrote:If candidates are being shortlisted for a position and they just happen to be all white should an ethnic candidate be shortlisted as well just because of this rule? especially if they may have been another white candidate who is better suited? Would this not be discrimination?

What are your thoughts?

To be honest, there are similar laws like this in general recruitment. Companies have to be able to provide details of volume of applicants, short-listed and interviewed applicants. If there is a trend of mass rejection due to age, sex, religion, ethnicity etc then they have to explain their actions.

Also regarding the exact quote above there is no maximum number of people that you can interview so including an ethnic candidate is not going to cost a caucasian candidate their place.

Fair point. However in general not everyone can be shortlisted for a post or there would actually be no shortlist, so if there is a limit and there normally is, a white applicant could indeed lose out if by rule an ethnic applicant must be included in the shortlist for interview.

That said it is viewed by some although controversial that the majority if not all of football club chairmen are not ethnic and as such find it difficult to welcome an ethinc person in their management team generally. Some ethnic people in the game feel so strongly they think it is a waste of time applying in the first place. So if this rule was to be forced on these clubs it would be a waste of time and probably more humiliating for the ethnic candidate if they applied in the first place.

Also there are probably many too who would look at the examples of Barnes and Ince and make their decisions based on those examples as some have done in this discussion alone.

To answer the question, of course it's discrimination if someone gets an interview just because of the colour of their skin.

Are their actually any stats showing qualified black managers applying for positions and being rejected, or is this all meaningless do-gooding?

Don, I did so jokingly.

If they don't apply then it's there own fault for having a defeatist attitude.

Race ,Colour shouldn't come into it , the best candidate should get the job regardless of either .

There's a character in South Park called "Token", that kind of sums up the whole debacle. If I were black and had an interview based not on my merits but on my skin colour I'd be extremely offended. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I think Paul Ince to Blackburn set back minority managers by about 10 years. There are so few minority coaches that it should not become an issue for a long time. The rule comes from the NFL where foreigners are pretty much non existant so it would need to be worded carefully for the EPL

i agree that talent should be the deciding factor and colour, creed, sex, age shouldn't come into it. But it does as proved by the stat that there is only 2 managers in the 92 FL clubs, also I think I read somewhere that something shocking like only 5 or 10 coaches (such as physios, assistant managers, fitness coaches...) in the 92 clubs are black/minority.

As a result these people are not getting the chances that other people are getting, so there needs to be a mechanism to increase the chances of these applicants and encourage/enforce a chance in culture throughout the game.

This is as important as back in the days of Viv Anderson and John Barnes when some fans though all black players could do was run fast and dive. It took a lot of work to increase the number of top flight black players in the leagues and lower the ignorance of many fans.

I think at the moment there is very little evidence of any racism or discrimination playing a part in the lack of ethnic managers. I agree with those who have said it before that it is only recently that are a large number of black players have played a part in football in England at any level, so we should expect over the next 5-10 years to see more black managers in the same way,

I first thought the 'Rooney Rule' was to cover up baldness in football.

I don't think it makes any difference. Whoever the board thinks is the 'best' person will get the job.

If Man United want David Moyes when Sir Alex Ferguson retires that is their prerogative. Who does it help if they have to interview people they don't want or who have got no chance of getting the job? It's just a waste of time and money.

Josiah Maiestas wrote:How is it discrimination? It isn't making a football club hire a black manager it is only there to help them make the interview stage, it is often the clubs who are discriminating by not even considering a good CV from a black person who aims to be a manager. I do think you need to accept that dozens of football clubs are often avoiding this situation to appease their large groups of racist fans...

WOW I couldn't disagree with you more, if the shortlist is 5 guys and they're all white and the 5th guy is miles ahead of the best black candidate, it's beyond stupid to overlook a far better prospectin favour of keeping the PC brigade happy, if anything this could build resentment to minority managers

Change the word ethnic to homosexual and would that mean that suddenly every club would have to offer jobs to gay men, I'doubt if anyone could even name 2 gay football coaches on earth, nevermind just in England?

As others have said, positive discrimination is still just discrimination, where should the line be drawn, should we stop interviewing Glaswegians, just because they're massively overrepresented in coaching and management?

BBC have just posted an article about the "Rooney Rule".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14856861.stm

no

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2036302/Martin-Samuel-Being-black-Cole-Co-held-back.html

Brilliant piece from Martin Samuel on it, Andy Cole and Ian Wright both were offered coaching roles if they got their badges but have refused to do it yet complained they aren't getting a chance.

I didn't think much of the article. Andy Cole doesn't really complain about not getting coaching roles because he's black, Martin Samuel seems to suggest that's what his excuse will be. Ian Wright just doesn't feel that it's worth doing his coaching badges because he'd never get the chance to magae England. If that's the way he feels then so be it.

It's not exactly going to go away when you get idiots like cole and wright monaing about discrimintion when they haven't even taking their badges.

It kind of goes against people who have worked their ass off like Chris Powell at Charlton when people just moan all the time.

I believe it should go to the best qualified person.

I want to say that I too believe that managers jobs or any kind of job in football or anywhere else should go to the best candidate for the job, unfortunately, that's not always how life goes.

As for Andy Cole and Ian Wright moaning? If blacks never complained there would still be Bed and Breakfasts' with signs saying "No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs.

This isn't South Africa, there is no rota system, managers are employed by their clubs because in the eyes of the decision makers they are the best men for the job.
It may only be 2/92 today but could easily be 10/92 in a month and back down to 5/92 by Christmas, none of these changes are brought about because of skin colour, the figures change because of success (or lack of it).

I really think in 2011 these discussions should end, I got very irritated during the US Elections when media in the biggest multi-cultural country in the world made endless reference to the Presidents skin colour.
He was democratically elected because the American people thought he was the best man for the job, nothing more.

If it means anything to anyone it was only 30 odd years ago that top flight football saw black players making their presence felt yet the numbers today are probably pretty close to 50/50 (could be way out there but you get my point), I think we can expect the numbers of black managers to increase

There are issues on both sides in fairness. If it is the culture in a club to have certain type of people in their management teams, this trend is unlikely to change regardless of whether this rule is accpeted or not.

On the other hand black players probably need to make more of an effort for their claims of racism in this aspect to be stronger. If they do have thier badges and are still not given the opportunity or even an interview then obviously there is a problem.

'If they do have thier badges and are still not given the opportunity or even an interview then obviously there is a problem'

I don't get this.
Thousands of people apply for jobs every day and aren't successful, I myself am looking for a change and for months have been rejected.
I have always presumed that the company I have applied to have found someone more qualified/better suited to the role, at no point have I though they're discriminating against me because of my skin colour.

These are tough times, the employer has the upper hand because the talent pool to choose from has grown (for a number of reasons).
There are increased numbers applying for a each job, there is a larger number of qualified candidates who were made redundant in previous culls, and an even larger number of people who retired early and are finding it difficult to cope so have re-entered the job market.

These are just facts, I refuse to accept that in this day and age any employer would deliberately discriminate against any individual if they were the best fit for the job, when after all, that individual is more likely to be successful and/or increase company profits.

Sometimes looking at ones own shortcomings may answer the question rather than looking for someone else to blame.....

Paul Ince was given special dispensation to manage Blackburn even though he wasn't qualified for it never mind was nowhere near experienced enough and look how that turned out

Grizzly wrote:These are just facts, I refuse to accept that in this day and age any employer would deliberately discriminate against any individual if they were the best fit for the job, when after all, that individual is more likely to be successful and/or increase company profits.

I think you're being very naive there.

While, on the whole, discrimination is being weeded out of recruitment, especially in large corporations, there is still a good chance it exists within smaller firms, who are less likely to attract attention from employment watchdogs, or industries where "Old Boys Networks" are still in place... football management being one of them.

I mean, how often have we heard the phrase "manager merry-go-round"? Managers get sacked by one club and end up taking a job at a new club a few months later...sometimes going back to a club they've worked at before. Its got to the point that even very average managers rarely find themselves out of work for long.

Another well-worn phrase, "Its not what you know, but who you know", still holds true today in many sectors of the job market.


Getting back on topic and looking at this from the other angle, I have always held the opinion that the best qualified person should get the job, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, etc. If Wright and Cole's attitudes are indicative of how black people feel about their chances in football management, then they've only themselves to blame.

Going back to what I said earlier, I think the OBN has been in place so long and we've seen the same old faces popping up at so many clubs, that if there were any talented up-and-coming managers, proving themselves in the lower leagues, they would be snapped up by larger clubs.

People like Chris Powell, Leroy Rosenior and Chris Hughton have proved its not impossible to get jobs at well known clubs. Here's hoping they inspire more footballers from ethnic minorities to get their coaching badges.

''I think you're being very naive there.''

Really ?
You believe that someone who owns their business will deliberately take on someone less like to succeed and therefore have a direct negative impact on the companies P&L and therefore your own standard of living ?

I think it is all becoming a joke now, the best person, or preferred candidate should get the job, regardless of skin colour etc.

To insist that at least one person who is said to be 'from an ethinic minority' is a discriminatary 'rule' in itself.

I havent read anything on this, as the mere suggestion of it boils my blood - no doubt the usual suspects Ian Wright inter alia will be putting their considerable 'voice' behind it, but to me it is just another nail in the coffin of common sense and of a once great nation.

Although, if it does go through, I suspect we will see Paul Ince interviewed for almost every managers job, as this is probably the only chance he will have of getting another job!

Grizzly wrote:''I think you're being very naive there.''

Really ?
You believe that someone who owns their business will deliberately take on someone less like to succeed and therefore have a direct negative impact on the companies P&L and therefore your own standard of living ?

Sadly I agree with Dyer, you are being naive.

I have seen first hand, instances where a person's CV had been disgarded before getting past the name, simply because of their ethnic orogin - it does happen.

BUT - insisting that people MUST interview someone from an 'ethnic' background is the wrong way to go about it, as it will simply serve to devalue any position taken by someone who is from a minority.

JD - I agree these things do happen.

I think worse than devaluing the position it could mean that Chairmen (racist or otherwise) who don't want that candidate will just waste their and the candidates time and not employ them. This happened in my work where a student applied for a internship but didn't have the correct visa to work fulltime, therefore couldn't get the job, but we had to interview them anyway.

However I think these negatives are smaller than the potential benefits of changing a racist culture and (eventually) changing the game enough so that everyone has an equal chance of getting into management. (this is why equal opportunities are in place in all industries, their not the best but do help and highlight problems)

Grizzly wrote:'If they do have thier badges and are still not given the opportunity or even an interview then obviously there is a problem'

I don't get this.
Thousands of people apply for jobs every day and aren't successful, I myself am looking for a change and for months have been rejected.
I have always presumed that the company I have applied to have found someone more qualified/better suited to the role, at no point have I though they're discriminating against me because of my skin colour.

These are tough times, the employer has the upper hand because the talent pool to choose from has grown (for a number of reasons).
There are increased numbers applying for a each job, there is a larger number of qualified candidates who were made redundant in previous culls, and an even larger number of people who retired early and are finding it difficult to cope so have re-entered the job market.

These are just facts, I refuse to accept that in this day and age any employer would deliberately discriminate against any individual if they were the best fit for the job, when after all, that individual is more likely to be successful and/or increase company profits.

Sometimes looking at ones own shortcomings may answer the question rather than looking for someone else to blame.....

For the most part what you say is correct but unfortunately as already mentioned football does have an old boy network culture and if your face dosen't fit so to speak then it won't happen regardless of any rule that is in place.

In fairness some black players do appear to have a defeatest attitude and don't appear to even want to get over the first hurdle. But if one has the qualifications their is a slim chance rather than none at all. The only hope is that as time goes by the culture in football clubs will change as more and more foreigners in general become part of the game.

Could we not equally claim that the problem exists with a lack of women involved with football clubs?

What will happen in ten years time when football clubs will be forced to take on Muslim managers???? Will they have to change the kick off times of certain games so the manager can pray facing north while kneeling down on his sunday best towel?? Cause this is the line we are going down.

Also, in all this "Ethnic jobless managers" must have an interview talk as there are only 2 in 92 nobody has mentioned the fact that there are only a handful of English managers in the EPL......will clubs be forced to interview English jobless managers for positions they are not going to get? How about gay jobless managers? Paraplegic’s? Here's a good one, what about women jobless managers that have done their badges? Should Andy Cole (who hasn't passed the required badges) be interviewed before a woman that has because he's black?? Cause thats both racist and sexist.

Grizzly - as you say lots of people apply for jobs and don't get them - but I think the problem is that most black managers apply for jobs and don't get them, some over a 10 year period, having done all their badges. When you look at an individual you can say "ohh well they didn't have the skills/experience or their face didn't fit" or that someone else was better qualified, but when you look at a group of what must be 300+ people and a very small percentage get an opportunity then I think there is a problem - especially when a high majority of them would have played football to a high level (at least League 2).

Invincible - you could but how many women are there involved in high level football in comparison to black males? I'd say there's a hell of a lot more black/minority males playing/involved with football at (in some cases) the highest level of football. Not saying that all these would make good managers but if Gascoigne (whose an alcoholic and has mental problems) can get a managers job, then surely some of the big name black players over the last 10 years should have been given at least a shot (I know Ince and Barnes, but that's only 2)

To be fair, as said earlier there has only recently been a large influx of black males in the Premier League playing-wise so perhaps in 5-10 years we will (hope) see more black managers as well. It is definetly only within the last 10 years that we have seen a large number of black English players as well, and they are much more likely to try for jobs than the foreign black players.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Could we not equally claim that the problem exists with a lack of women involved with football clubs?

No, not for me, I don't believe that women have a place in mens football, I also don't believe men should have a place in womens football

Smirnoff, I understand what you're saying about Gazza but he wasn't employed due to his ability to manage, he was brought in to bring publicity to that club and to try and get more fans through the gate., definite PR Stunt

the-gaffer wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Could we not equally claim that the problem exists with a lack of women involved with football clubs?

No, not for me, I don't believe that women have a place in mens football, I also don't believe men should have a place in womens football

Why not gaffer? Sounds a rather ignorant view in my opinion. There are a fair few women working in the administration side of the game and doing a good job and it is just as much a business as it is a sport after all.

the-gaffer wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Could we not equally claim that the problem exists with a lack of women involved with football clubs?

No, not for me, I don't believe that women have a place in mens football, I also don't believe men should have a place in womens football

But surely if there are women wanting to get involved in men's football, which I find hard to believe there isn't, they have just as much a valid claim to a job in football than any other human being if they get the relevant qualifications etc. My point was that if you go one step in making sure you interview at least one person from an ethnic background, surely you can't just stop at that and you have to interview at least one woman, at least one person from ethnic background, at least one person over 65 etc. etc.

I don't think woman should be invoved because its mens football, I have no problem with them being ivolved in football, there is a very successful womans league they can get involved in

I also agree that it's ridiculous to give an ethnic minority manager a place on a short list if hw isn't good enough to merit such a position, if the short list is 5 guys and the fifth white guy is better qualified than than the first in linw black guy then it makes a mockery of any such rule

What if they want to get involved in men's football, not womens? Particuarly as there are men working in women's football.

the-gaffer wrote:I don't think woman should be invoved because its mens football, I have no problem with them being ivolved in football, there is a very successful womans league they can get involved in

I have heard of and read about women fitness instructors being involved in training sessions at professional football clubs which makes them involved in mens football whether you agree with it or not though gaff. If a female employed by a club can hold down and do a good job for their employer in whatever capacity it is then it can only be a positive thing for the game.

Why do you feel having women involved in mens football can only be good for the game?

(not a sarcastic question by the way)

the-gaffer wrote:Why do you feel having women involved in mens football can only be good for the game?

(not a sarcastic question by the way)

Well for one if a women is working and a doing sufficient job at football club be it on the training ground or the administration side then it does at least show that the 'opposite sex' so to speak is not being discriminated against which is the basis of this thread. So for that it is a positive. I don't think we can just dismiss women having any part in mens football because it is a mans game can we?

If one woman walks through a turnstile on a Saturday afternoon she has some kind of involvement in the mens game because she is contributing towards a players salary. That's my view anyway.