Rooney Rule - Is it discrimination?

First topic message reminder :

There are calls for English leagues to introuduce the "Rooney" Rule to ensure that ethnic managers are given the opportunity for a managers role. Apparenty clubs would be forced to interview at least one candidate from an ethnic background for the vacancy, Is this fair?

If candidates are being shortlisted for a position and they just happen to be all white should an ethnic candidate be shortlisted as well just because of this rule? especially if they may have been another white candidate who is better suited? Would this not be discrimination?

What are your thoughts?

dondelero, what you're suggesting, and I have being trying to stress this point again and again, and Smirnoff has tried to tell you as well, is that women should not ever be in a position of authority over men. Surely you can see that is outdated, and frankly sexist. Footballers are no different.

I think Smirnoff has hit the nail on the head, women's football exists soley because, like all other sports, women can't keep up with men physically, however it is ridiculous IMO that they should be excluded from even trying to manage or coach in men's football.

I think ive already shown that women do already get that respect in jobs far more male dominated than football, such as the army and navy. They suceed admirally. Also what other factors come into play?
Why does it have to stop? Equality should be everyones right and opportunities should be open to all, not just open to those whose face fits or have been born into the 'right' ethnic group/sexuality.

As ive said b4 this doesnt cause a problem in any other industry, i in fact have been managed by women and had my director was a woman, never did i have any less respect for them or thought their job might be inpinged becoz they may have been attracted to me

Smirnoffpriest wrote: never did i have any less respect for them or thought their job might be inpinged becoz they may have been attracted to me

You stud smirnoff!!

Ur damn right, u should have seen me working under her!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ur damn right, u should have seen me working under her!

A wise man once told me the best way to get over a woman is to get under another! I like your style!

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:dondelero, what you're suggesting, and I have being trying to stress this point again and again, and Smirnoff has tried to tell you as well, is that women should not ever be in a position of authority over men. Surely you can see that is outdated, and frankly sexist. Footballers are no different.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think ive already shown that women do already get that respect in jobs far more male dominated than football, such as the army and navy. They suceed admirally. Also what other factors come into play?
Why does it have to stop? Equality should be everyones right and opportunities should be open to all, not just open to those whose face fits or have been born into the 'right' ethnic group/sexuality.

As ive said b4 this doesnt cause a problem in any other industry, i in fact have been managed by women and had my director was a woman, never did i have any less respect for them or thought their job might be inpinged becoz they may have been attracted to me

Of course women hold positions where they manage men but one size does not fit all. Just because they do this in Banking, the army and other areas does not automatically mean they can be football manangers in a male league etc. There are just some areas where it just wont work i.e Building sites, although it has been know that there is the odd female builder, how many forewomen are there in the building trade? In relation to football you appear to be disregarding the practical factors as mentioned before i.e the culture of football in this country, the respect that needs to be there.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:I think Smirnoff has hit the nail on the head, women's football exists soley because, like all other sports, women can't keep up with men physically, however it is ridiculous IMO that they should be excluded from even trying to manage or coach in men's football

Yes but again in football it's also about perceptions, culture, respect. In general what is the experience of a group of young footballers who earn well? outside of football, generally and unfortunately, they have some women throwing themselves at them, which invariably lead to scandals etc, they view women as objects. Do you really think if their manager was a women that she could be effective in that setting? This is the difference with areas such as football.

On the other hand if someone like Andy Cole was their manager, instant respect would be there and he would have more chance of being effective. He would be viewed purely as a successful footballer and nothing else. Unless off course the players have issue with race(which in general many dont) but for e.g he would definitely have a problem in areas of Spain and the Eastern countries. Although there were suggesions that this may have been the problem with Paul Ince at Blackburn in particular.

If clubs will have to start ensuring black managers get a fair ride when hiring is concerned, how long before clubs are being put on the proverbial chopping block for sacking a black manager?

OleH wrote:If clubs will have to start ensuring black managers get a fair ride when hiring is concerned, how long before clubs are being put on the proverbial chopping block for sacking a black manager?

The rule isn't to 'ensure' clubs start hiring black managers but merely about ensuring they get an opportunity to apply for these jobs. At the moment (according to many ex players/coaches and some independant organisations) black managers aren't even considered for jobs no matter how many qualifications they have. Thats the culture that this rule is trying to change.

Once someone has an opportunity then the rule stops, it's up to that individual to use that opportunity to prove they are the best person for the job and once they get the job, that they deserve to stay in it.

dondelero - I can't see how you can say that football is that much of an exception to other high pressure jobs (I mean even pop stars are sometimes managed by women despite having groupies throwing themselves at them) - your building example could be the lack of forewomen is because building is highly physical work as well as being male dominated and you generally need to work your way up from the bottom to being foreman/woman, and women wouldn't (in the main) be able to keep up with most big physically fit men.

I think that you command respect through your own personality, the same as if you want to be regarded as nothing more than eye-candy then you can by the way you dress the way you treat people, your manner and seriousness. I don't think (using a left field example) that any footballer whose had young airheads throwing themselves at them will not think the same way about (say) Maggie Thatcher, and she would more than likely command respect (and scare them sh**less) from the players.

You make a good point about an unproven male manager whose just been playing football at the top level gaining instant respect from the players. But there are many other managers who have never played football and generally they work their way up from the lower leagues, as a female manager would be expected to do.

Smirnoffpriest - It's fair what you say about the Building trade but this is point, there are just some areas where women would just not be effective and not just because of physicality but again because of the way the are percieved. In football more than personality is needed wouldn't you say? it has to be about how you are respected or else one will "lose the dressing room" the players will not respect your instructions unless maybe you are the old iron lady. Why did Keys and Gray leave sky? because of their comments about the female assistant but their views are probably mirrored throught the game among men, which is why woman managing in a male league just can't happen in a practical way. But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think we will have to agree to disagree and I can see what your saying but I'm just coming at the argument from another side.

dondelero wrote:Smirnoffpriest - It's fair what you say about the Building trade but this is point, there are just some areas where women would just not be effective and not just because of physicality but again because of the way the are percieved. In football more than personality is needed wouldn't you say? it has to be about how you are respected or else one will "lose the dressing room" the players will not respect your instructions unless maybe you are the old iron lady. Why did Keys and Gray leave sky? because of their comments about the female assistant but their views are probably mirrored throught the game among men, which is why woman managing in a male league just can't happen in a practical way. But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

So what you are saying is that the players to a man would refuse to be professional and do what their boss is asking them to??

I refuse to believe Keys and Grays comments were mirrored throughout the game, for a start the reason that they went on the offensive is that they thought she had an offside decision wrong which she didn't......also there had been a lot of complaints about Andy Gray and his behaviour towards the female staff so I'd think twice before you turn him into a martyr.

Small Time wrote:So what you are saying is that the players to a man would refuse to be professional and do what their boss is asking them to??

Not if they didn't respect the boss. When this happens the manager invariably has to leave the club

Small Time wrote:I refuse to believe Keys and Grays comments were mirrored throughout the game, for a start the reason that they went on the offensive is that they thought she had an offside decision wrong which she didn't......also there had been a lot of complaints about Andy Gray and his behaviour towards the female staff so I'd think twice before you turn him into a martyr.

In no way should Andy Gray be viewed as a Martyr although he was probably dealt with a little harsly in this instance. But suppose if the assistant had got it wrong what do you think the majority of fans who are men would've put it down to?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think we will have to agree to disagree and I can see what your saying but I'm just coming at the argument from another side.

And I can see that other side as well.

dondelero wrote:Smirnoffpriest - It's fair what you say about the Building trade but this is point, there are just some areas where women would just not be effective and not just because of physicality but again because of the way the are percieved. In football more than personality is needed wouldn't you say? it has to be about how you are respected or else one will "lose the dressing room" the players will not respect your instructions unless maybe you are the old iron lady. Why did Keys and Gray leave sky? because of their comments about the female assistant but their views are probably mirrored throught the game among men, which is why woman managing in a male league just can't happen in a practical way. But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Perhaps you're showing it is even more important to get women involved in male football to get rid of this blatant sexism?

Invincible - Well there are female sport presenters and even female football commentators now.

Best person for the job regardless of race, religion, sex or sexuality anything else is discrimination. Stupid rule.

prettyboykev wrote:Best person for the job regardless of race, religion, sex or sexuality anything else is discrimination. Stupid rule.

well said

prettyboykev wrote:Best person for the job regardless of race, religion, sex or sexuality anything else is discrimination. Stupid rule.

Unfortunately life is not that simple.

DJ Legless wrote:

Atila wrote:

the-gaffer wrote:I don't think we can include fans, that takes us onto a whole different branch

I have no problem with women working behind the scenes in administatory roles, While you are 100% spot on that they are roles in mens football I was talking more from a visual prespective in terms of what we see on the pitch, I don't believe any woman could coach a mans football team and I don't believe woman should referee mens games either, and I sure as dammit don't ever want to see woman playing in a mans team.

I'm not sexist in the slightest and hope it doesn't come across that way and I don't feel its wrong to think women should be allowed to run every aspect of the visual side of their game and vice versa

You're not sexist?

So your saying he has to say he wants to see woman either playing or managing for him to not be sexist. When you highlight it like that of course it is going to seem sexist.

For the record I don't want to see woman coaching or playing in the mens game. IMO I don't think they have the bottle for it regarding being able to motivate men and actually hava a go when needed.

For what it's worth I don't want to see a woman coaching a mans team either. There are hundreds of former players out there who I'm sure would love the chance to coach but never get the chance. However, women are quite capable of coaching a mans team if given the opportunity. Saying that a women couldn't coach a mans team is sexist to me.

It seems pretty obvious that playing prowess doesn't really matter when it comes to management, just look at Wenger, Mourinho, Villas-Boas etc. etc. nor does it actually matter what background a person has, though being Glaswegian does seem to help.
So that being said, why should the gender of a manager make the tinyest jot of difference to the job the manager does, decades ago most people would say women couldn't run companies, work in certain industries, fight in wars etc. but we've seen all that is just BS.
Less than a century ago many great scientists still maintained that black people weren't clever enough to educate, or didn't have the social skills to fit into mainstream society, again this has been proved to be BS.

It seems fairly clear to me that non-white men, or women, just need the opportunity to prove themselves as football managers and it seems just as obvious that anyone who thinks this isn't so is either racist or sexist, I only base my conclusion on the fact that I've yet to hear a single valid reason as to why women or any ethnic minority couldn't do the job just as well as a white man, if someone can think of any reason why they couldn't, I'd love to hear it.

"I only base my conclusion on the fact that I've yet to hear a single valid
reason as to why women or any ethnic minority couldn't do the job just
as well as a white man, if someone can think of any reason why they
couldn't, I'd love to hear it."

i think managing a team commands repsect- someone that has been there and done it at there level is normally the type of person that fits the role of managing the team. And respect aside its about experience

this is kind of obvious really. And is very valid- and not one bit sexist either. However they could be an exception to the rule. There isnt really a reason why the manager of a football team has to be an ex football player(but that is the point- it doesnt matter if there are black,green or female). Its about the fact that football managers are elevated from football players

Pick a female at a club- fine , however pick me as well. Yes i might be a white male but i have just as much experience playing pro mens football than any female has

People use this as an example of a sexist society. Its no different from why a black male actor would be picked to play the role of pele in a potential film about him. Its the same reason why we pick managers at an industry level that have experience in the field- Its all just common sense- tis all

did i really just post on a topic that is 10 months old lol.

this rule only increases discrimination