Rooney Rule - Is it discrimination?

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There are calls for English leagues to introuduce the "Rooney" Rule to ensure that ethnic managers are given the opportunity for a managers role. Apparenty clubs would be forced to interview at least one candidate from an ethnic background for the vacancy, Is this fair?

If candidates are being shortlisted for a position and they just happen to be all white should an ethnic candidate be shortlisted as well just because of this rule? especially if they may have been another white candidate who is better suited? Would this not be discrimination?

What are your thoughts?

I don't think we can include fans, that takes us onto a whole different branch

I have no problem with women working behind the scenes in administatory roles, While you are 100% spot on that they are roles in mens football I was talking more from a visual prespective in terms of what we see on the pitch, I don't believe any woman could coach a mans football team and I don't believe woman should referee mens games either, and I sure as dammit don't ever want to see woman playing in a mans team.

I'm not sexist in the slightest and hope it doesn't come across that way and I don't feel its wrong to think women should be allowed to run every aspect of the visual side of their game and vice versa

the-gaffer wrote:I don't think we can include fans, that takes us onto a whole different branch

I have no problem with women working behind the scenes in administatory roles, While you are 100% spot on that they are roles in mens football I was talking more from a visual prespective in terms of what we see on the pitch, I don't believe any woman could coach a mans football team and I don't believe woman should referee mens games either, and I sure as dammit don't ever want to see woman playing in a mans team.

I'm not sexist in the slightest and hope it doesn't come across that way and I don't feel its wrong to think women should be allowed to run every aspect of the visual side of their game and vice versa

You're not sexist?

I agree obviously that woman shouldn't play with men, or men with women, but I don't see any reason why women shouldn't be allowed to coach or referee in men's football. There doesn't really seem to be any justification for that view.

Atila wrote:

the-gaffer wrote:I don't think we can include fans, that takes us onto a whole different branch

I have no problem with women working behind the scenes in administatory roles, While you are 100% spot on that they are roles in mens football I was talking more from a visual prespective in terms of what we see on the pitch, I don't believe any woman could coach a mans football team and I don't believe woman should referee mens games either, and I sure as dammit don't ever want to see woman playing in a mans team.

I'm not sexist in the slightest and hope it doesn't come across that way and I don't feel its wrong to think women should be allowed to run every aspect of the visual side of their game and vice versa

You're not sexist?

So your saying he has to say he wants to see woman either playing or managing for him to not be sexist. When you highlight it like that of course it is going to seem sexist.

For the record I don't want to see woman coaching or playing in the mens game. IMO I don't think they have the bottle for it regarding being able to motivate men and actually hava a go when needed.

The only instance where women can be omitted IMO is playing, as is the same for all sports, but there is literally no justification for not letting them coach, manage, referee or any other job in football which does not involve physically competing with men.

Question is though do you really see guys taking orders from a woman regarding decisions with the team. Whether I think it is right or worng I really can't see it myself and I rekon it would take a hell of a strong woman to get a stance across the team.

Also you could argue that if there physically not able to play with men then why should they be able to coach them when they wouldn't have first hand experience dealing with that.

Not my opinion but just thought I would throw that out there.

With that same argument you could claim no woman should every be superior to any man in any work place, it's nonsense. I'm no feminist, but claiming a woman are incapable of doing the job is just as bad as saying a black man can't.

How do I adjust the clock that sits in the bottom right hand corner of a computer screen because mine keeps coming up 2011?

Surely if a woman is good enough to work in mens football then that's that. Sian Massey is a damn good lineswoman but perhaps the F.A should strip her of that role and offer her a position in the Soho Square kitchen?!

FreekShow wrote:How do I adjust the clock that sits in the bottom right hand corner of a computer screen because mine keeps coming up 2011?

Surely if a woman is good enough to work in mens football then that's that. Sian Massey is a damn good lineswoman but perhaps the F.A should strip her of that role and offer her a position in the Soho Square kitchen?!

I don't have a problem with her being Assisant referee or even referee and she has shown that she hasn't just been pushed because she is a woman but because she is actually good at what she does. As for playing alongside that argument could go either way.

Convinently ignored my post...

Sorry leak,

Well I don't really see the comparision with every day jobs and sporting jobs. Tennis, golf, rugby, football and boxing are a few jobs that woman would struggle with regarding power.

I have seen a few make an exception to the rule regarding physical jobs in the construction trade but even then they do struggle a little.

I'm totally for woman being given high jobs in male dominated enviroments and have known a few woman personally who held very high jobs in the oil industry but as for equal at sports I'm sticking by my guns and don't agree they would be able to mix in competing.

I just don't understand why though? Are footballers particuarly harder to handle than the average male for women more than men?

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:The only instance where women can be omitted IMO is playing, as is the same for all sports, but there is literally no justification for not letting them coach, manage, referee or any other job in football which does not involve physically competing with men.

I definitely don't agree, females aren't as strong or fast as males, more so professional footballers, and I'd find it hard to believe they would handle the very physical aspect of that side of the game, it also puts far more pressure onto males who might disagree with the females opinions and decisions, there is also the very reslisitic possibility that female officials could be influenced by players they are sexually attracted too

FreekShow wrote:How do I adjust the clock that sits in the bottom right hand corner of a computer screen because mine keeps coming up 2011?

Surely if a woman is good enough to work in mens football then that's that. Sian Massey is a damn good lineswoman but perhaps the F.A should strip her of that role and offer her a position in the Soho Square kitchen?!

Who said they should keep her in the kitchen, do you remember the monstrosity that occured last year, after 'that' game they FA took her out of the firing line, since then it became a circus, the games she been involved in since become overshadowed by the female official side show.

If she is such a great official whats the problem with officiating the womens league?

Lets not turn into over dramatic PC pansy's and tall about chaining the kitchen sink

the-gaffer wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:The only instance where women can be omitted IMO is playing, as is the same for all sports, but there is literally no justification for not letting them coach, manage, referee or any other job in football which does not involve physically competing with men.

I definitely don't agree, females aren't as strong or fast as males, more so professional footballers, and I'd find it hard to believe they would handle the very physical aspect of that side of the game, it also puts far more pressure onto males who might disagree with the females opinions and decisions, there is also the very reslisitic possibility that female officials could be influenced by players they are sexually attracted too

Presumably no referee should be gay either? I think using "sexual attraction" again is an argument you could apply to any profession where women are in positions of control over men, or of course vice versa, however it very rarely is taken into consideration that the person in position of control could be possibly attracted to those they are the boss of.

I suppose the physical need of the referees is a possibility for not letting them be a referee, but I doubt the differences between men and women physically would make a huge difference with referees.

There is still no reason that they should not be allowed to manage or coach though.

the-gaffer wrote:

FreekShow wrote:How do I adjust the clock that sits in the bottom right hand corner of a computer screen because mine keeps coming up 2011?

Surely if a woman is good enough to work in mens football then that's that. Sian Massey is a damn good lineswoman but perhaps the F.A should strip her of that role and offer her a position in the Soho Square kitchen?!

If she is such a great official whats the problem with officiating the womens league?

She did officiate in the womens league but was deemed good enough to step up with to the mans game and I for one admire her guts in wanting to better herself in a male dominated industry despite the obvious bigotry that is guaranteed to come with it.

Do you think its fair that the teams in games she officiates in are over shadowed by the side show that comes with her?

Why is she deemed to good for the female league? How exactly does an official become too good for a certain level? At what point do you say "hold on a minute, shes not making enough cockups, promote her"

Where does it end? Soon people will be wanting females in the starting line up

the-gaffer wrote:Do you think its fair that the teams in games she officiates in are over shadowed by the side show that comes with her?

Why is she deemed to good for the female league? How exactly does an official become too good for a certain level? At what point do you say "hold on a minute, shes not making enough cockups, promote her"

Where does it end? Soon people will be wanting females in the starting line up

Where did I say she was too good?

The reason why any woman who wants to ref or coach in football would want to do so at the highest level and for the best pay seems totally obvious to me
As for playing with the best, I'm sure if any woman had ever been physically strong enough as well as talented enough to play for a half decent team, a club desperate for media exposure would already have tried to give them a contract.
IMO, it's only the strangth/stamina difference between men and women that will/should ever prevent women playing alongside men, I've no doubt that plenty have the skill to play at a level that would give them a living wage or better, but football is as much about strength and speed as it is skill and even the fastest/strongest woman on earth would only just be comparable to the average PL player and the fastest/strongest women aren't footballers as far as I'm aware.

Nobody is suggesting that women start playing with men, that is obvious, it doesn't happen in most sports. Perhaps there is even a slight argument that they can't referee because of the physiciality levels for that job, although referees aren't in peak physical condition so I don't think it'll be much of a problem, not that it isn't a demanding job.

However, I have yet to see a valid reason why women shouldn't manage or coach a male football side other than the frankly sexist view that they wouldn't be able to control the side or they would allow sexual attraction to get in the way of their job, which is an argument you could equally use in any workplace.

Couldn't agree more with Leak - To say that a woman can't be professional enough to overcome a possible physical attraction is a lazy and laughable comment as is the one about a woman not being able to control a footballer - look at Maggie Thatcher (not my favourite person) or Deborah Meaden or many other successful and powerful women such as Anika Roddick, they all managed it so why on earth would a woman (one who has all the right skills to manage a football team) suddenly find herself too weak to deal with some highly paid footballers? or find herself swooning everytime one of her players flashed a permatanned thigh at her?

It seems a very sexist, ignorant and almost caveman view of the world - and seems to imply that a woman, no matter how skillful and driven, can't compete with a man at the top

Leak, Freekshow, you're both Reds right? Say Kenny Dal isn't the saviour many think and hope he'll be, Liverpool having spent £120m since his return don't finish in the top four, King Kenny gets the bullet, now in a revolutionary act, Liverpool appoint a female manager in an attempt to finally win the title, how would you honestly react to that?

I can honestly say would have no issue with Watford employing a woman manager - with relevant coaching experience. Just as I have no issue with Sian Massey running the line.

As for not being able to look beyond physical attraction - Karen Brady sold her husband. So no issues for her there.

Well this discussion has definitely morphed into something completely different. The problem will always be culture. In footballs 100 plus year history has there even been a female manager at professional level? If so how many? It would probably take another hundred years for this to happen.

Simple fact is football is a male dominated sport or sexist and probably always will be, this isn't necessarily right but it is just how it is. For this to change it would probably need the establishment of a unisex league which is impractical for so many obvious reasons as already highlighted.

Could a woman be effective as a manager of an all male team? Would she receive the respect that is needed? very unlikely.

the-gaffer wrote:Leak, Freekshow, you're both Reds right? Say Kenny Dal isn't the saviour many think and hope he'll be, Liverpool having spent £120m since his return don't finish in the top four, King Kenny gets the bullet, now in a revolutionary act, Liverpool appoint a female manager in an attempt to finally win the title, how would you honestly react to that?

I'd obviously be dissapointed, in the same way that I'd be dissapointed if Liverpool sacked Kenny and they then employ somebody who has no experience managing a football team or male football.

However, that is not to stay that a woman has every right to work in men's football, if she gains the experience, performs well, and is competent, all things I would expect from a male manager, then I don't believe there is any reason for complaint.

dondelero wrote:Well this discussion has definitely morphed into something completely different.

I don't think it's completley different, if you subsitute woman for black in a lot of what people on this thread are saying and you a similar view to one from 50-60 years ago.

dondelero wrote:Could a woman be effective as a manager of an all male team? Would she receive the respect that is needed? very unlikely.

Again, this argument is very weak when we consider women working in other male-dominated professions and performing just as well as men. I can't understand why football should be an exception.

Electric Demon wrote:
As for not being able to look beyond physical attraction - Karen Brady sold her husband. So no issues for her there.

I think Karen Brady is quite an interesting one to be honest, she fell for Peschisolido (sp) while she was his boss, he was the top goalscorer in both his years at Brum but his realationship with players suffered badly and they sold him to keep the unity of the team, they didn't get married until he left, they signed hima second time, God knows why, he was stinkng for 12 months and it didn't improve back at Birmingham, he only had a 3 month contract and Trevor Francis didn't want it renewed, so I'd say Karen Brady having a realationship with a player did have a negative effect on the team as they sold their top goalscorer to restore harmony

a lady should manage a lady team

Leak, so are you saying that you'd happily accept a female manager at Anfield of shes managed a malw team prior, or would you rather she managed a top European club or a fellow EPL club first, if so are you saying you're all for being a proactive supporter of females in mens football as long as it's not your club that takes the plunge?

the-gaffer wrote:Leak, so are you saying that you'd happily accept a female manager at Anfield of shes managed a malw team prior, or would you rather she managed a top European club or a fellow EPL club first, if so are you saying you're all for being a proactive supporter of females in mens football as long as it's not your club that takes the plunge?

I wouldn't treat her any differently to how male managers are treated. Without the prior experience of playing a woman manager would obviously take longer to climb the football management ladder, but if she had better managing credentials than any other possible candidates then I would be all for appointing her.

no reason a lady could be manager as long as man picks team amd tatics

I think it's a safe game to say what you've just said, do you ever forsee a time that a woman will be the best candidate for the Liverpool managerial position? I can't and I think saying 'if they're the best qualified' is a bit of a cop out to be honest

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why women couldn't coach or even manage men's teams.

Sadly I don't think we'll ever see that happen, as there probably aren't many women who would fancy those jobs. The only woman who probably would be up for it is Hope Powell. She strikes me as the kind of lady who wouldn't take any c**p from the lads.

A bit like the Labour government's drive to get more female MPs. As I recall that was largely a failure.

I don't think the "traditionalists" here have to worry about choking on their pints, on hearing Jane Smith has just been appointed as the new head coach at Liverpool.

Maybe they're just too smart to want to put up with that much grief from the players, fans, media etc. Lets face it, the blokes get a hard enough time as it is. Can you imagine the kind of headlines if a female was in charge?

the-gaffer wrote:I think it's a safe game to say what you've just said, do you ever forsee a time that a woman will be the best candidate for the Liverpool managerial position? I can't and I think saying 'if they're the best qualified' is a bit of a cop out to be honest

I wouldn't happen overnight, and because of the seperation of girls and boys in football at an early age and so no movement from player to manager/coach possible for women it will be very unlikely. It's probably quite likely there aren't a huge amount of women wanting to be involved with football. However that is not the issue, what you proposed was to actually stop any women coaching or managing, not even allowing that oppurtunity to be there, which I think is wrong.

Maybe start with some lesbians in League 2 - see how it goes, then go from there.

Leak, is it possible that you think what I said is wrong simply because as a fan of a famous big club, you'll never have to actually deal with the dilema? For me it's all very well saying one thing to look like a modern progressive thinker, when in reality you know it's never going to happen

Electric Demon wrote:Maybe start with some lesbians in League 2 - see how it goes, then go from there.

the lady could be manager if she dates the owner as long as man is compensated who was sacked to replace lady

the-gaffer wrote:Leak, is it possible that you think what I said is wrong simply because as a fan of a famous big club, you'll never have to actually deal with the dilema? For me it's all very well saying one thing to look like a modern progressive thinker, when in reality you know it's never going to happen

It's not that at all. I just don't see any reason why women should be excluded from men's football when they aren't competing with men, or vice versa.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:

the-gaffer wrote:Leak, is it possible that you think what I said is wrong simply because as a fan of a famous big club, you'll never have to actually deal with the dilema? For me it's all very well saying one thing to look like a modern progressive thinker, when in reality you know it's never going to happen

It's not that at all. I just don't see any reason why women should be excluded from men's football when they aren't competing with men, or vice versa.

they made a lady a linesmanin aman match ladys are doing well

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:I don't think it's completley different, if you subsitute woman for black in a lot of what people on this thread are saying and you a similar view to one from 50-60 years ago.

Well as disappointing as it might be the views about certain aspects of football have been the same for probably over 100 years.It is all about culture and 100 years of culture will not be put aside unless by law. Probably women in the Army had a similar complaint.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Again, this argument is very weak when we consider women working in other male-dominated professions and performing just as well as men. I can't understand why football should be an exception.

The simple fact is that men and women are different so it does make a very big difference. A woman talking tactics with a bunch of ego and tostesterine driven men will not work in football.

dondelero wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Again, this argument is very weak when we consider women working in other male-dominated professions and performing just as well as men. I can't understand why football should be an exception.

The simple fact is that men and women are different so it does make a very big difference. A woman talking tactics with a bunch of ego and tostesterine driven men will not work in football.

So I am correct in assuming that no woman should be put in a position where they have to tell any man what to do in a workplace?

Gaffer - the only thing Leak is saying is that he'd be upset if anyone (man, woman, child or ape) where given the reigns to Liverpool without any experience/skills, I don't see whats wrong with that and I think most clubs (at least above conference/League 2) would feel the same, the majority of managers 'cut their teeth' at the lower leagues before getting a shot at one of the top jobs, why should it be different for a woman? If they can hack it at the lower leagues there should def be the chance for them at the higher level - and FYI I support Wrexham as well as Arsenal and would be relatively happy with them at Wrexham (as happy as I would with an inexperienced male manager, but the downside would be the media circus and all the idiot sexist coming out and saying it shouldn't be allowed and she has no right being in that position and hoping she fails)

dondelero wrote:

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:I don't think it's completley different, if you subsitute woman for black in a lot of what people on this thread are saying and you a similar view to one from 50-60 years ago.

Well as disappointing as it might be the views about certain aspects of football have been the same for probably over 100 years.It is all about culture and 100 years of culture will not be put aside unless by law. Probably women in the Army had a similar complaint.

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:Again, this argument is very weak when we consider women working in other male-dominated professions and performing just as well as men. I can't understand why football should be an exception.

The simple fact is that men and women are different so it does make a very big difference. A woman talking tactics with a bunch of ego and tostesterine driven men will not work in football.

So am I correct in thinking that there isn't any ego's or testosterone in the banking sector? That's a male dominated high pressure environment yet many women successfully rise to the top, many showing great strategic and tactical nous at the same time (many fail, as do many men as you'd expect from people being roughly equal)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:So am I correct in thinking that there isn't any ego's or testosterone in the banking sector? That's a male dominated high pressure environment yet many women successfully rise to the top, many showing great strategic and tactical nous at the same time (many fail, as do many men as you'd expect from people being roughly equal)

Well it maybe that they have been in banking for sometime and eventually as you say rise to the top. However in football women have never been involved in the management of league teams. How many women are in the backroom staff at any football league club? coaches? trainers? Any at Utd, City, Liverpool etc? . However this is why there is women's football which is more appropriate and practical, where women who want to play football and even manage have the opportunity.

Well I don't think anyone's expecting a woman manager to take over from Fergie when he retires - what people are saying (for women and black managers) is that they should have opportunities at the bottom leagues so they can work their way up, just as they do in banking, the army, medical and legal professions and every other profession. But that doesn't seem to happen.

If they did work their way up from the lower leagues they'd be able to prove if they were good enough or not, if not then fine they'll drop out of the leagues, but if they are they could keep getting better jobs at better clubs until they reach their optimum level (based on their skill level)

There is womens football because it is inpractical for women to compete with men on a football pitch. That is the only reason there isn't a mixed sex league. There's nowhere where it is stated or seen as true that a woman doesn't have the same mental ability as a man - and as coaching/managing is mainly a mental activity (eg motivating, tactics, discipline ect) rather than physical (eg stamina, strength, speed, skill) then there is no reason why women shouldn't manage any team they'd like as long as they are good enough

Now this is what a debate should look like! Excellent read and some great points made by both sides.

As I have said I personally have no problem seeing women work in mens football if they can do a competent job in whatever role they take.

Would I like to see a female boss of Liverpool?....well I doubt she'd do a worse job that Graeme Souness!

Seriously? A woman managing a top football club? what happen's when she's in her flower's? Players getting sacked for nothing. Ref's getting there face scratched off.

I hope your joking otherwise OMG

Also can't be worse than Ozzie Ardylis (SP) not playing a DF

Smirnoffpriest wrote:There is womens football because it is inpractical for women to compete with men on a football pitch. That is the only reason there isn't a mixed sex league. There's nowhere where it is stated or seen as true that a woman doesn't have the same mental ability as a man - and as coaching/managing is mainly a mental activity (eg motivating, tactics, discipline ect) rather than physical (eg stamina, strength, speed, skill) then there is no reason why women shouldn't manage any team they'd like as long as they are good enough

They can do all of this but within their own league, they may indeed have all the ability of a man in managing but the fact is they are not men, hence other factors come into play. In a practical sense and as said before will she command the respect of footballers in her team? Can you imagine a women managing a sunday pub team of men? Now this could happen but first men would have to totally change their way of thinking to accept such a situation. It will not happen.

Having a black manager at a club is not such a great leap as having a woman manager, or even a black woman manager. Where would this stop?