Why Wales dont win world cups but England do

by wrfc1980 Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:57 pm

The last 24 hours of the rugby world cup has summed up to me why Wales can't win world cups but England can. Today Wales played a off form South African side which was hit with injury mid game. Wale had all the possesion and territory yet struggled to create a try scoring opportunity. Where was this 'Welsh Way' which is meant to be full of attacking running rugby? Wales oftern hark on about tghe fact that if they get 50/50 possesion they will win. Well Wales at 60& of the possesion and still looked blunt in attack.
On the other hand England played very poorly yet got the win which has pretty much booked their place in the 1/4 final. Even if they loose to Scotland chances are they will finish 2nd. However England will almost certainly top their group. Wales are now in trouble, a loss to Samoe or Fiji could signal the end of their world cup.
What would people prefer a scappy uninspired WIN or a gallant loss? Id chhose what England did every time

by offload Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:01 am

Yawn!!

A bit silly to bring this up don't you think. Perhaps it escaped you that Wales were playing the world champions not Argentina.

I'm sure that England will improve but you really shouldn't waste you time trying to create a Wales v England debate. Grow up.

by HammerofThunor Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:03 am

Cups plural? We only did it once.

There was a poster on here yesterday (I think he was Welsh) saying he prefer to lose playing attractive rugby than winning 'ugly'. Well he got his wish anyway. It's one game. You've only beaten South Africa once EVER. If you go on to improve (no reason why this should be a peak) you're more than capable.

by englandglory4ever Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:20 am

IMO that welsh performance was right up there in terms of quality world rugby. The boks should think themselves lucky they got out of there with the win as they were under the cosh for a lot of the match. Wales are showing signs of genuine competitiveness at the top end of the game and anybody that doesn't think so may have a few shocks in the not to distant future.

by Bullsbok Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:25 am

englandglory4ever wrote:IMO that welsh performance was right up there in terms of quality world rugby. The boks should think themselves lucky they got out of there with the win as they were under the cosh for a lot of the match. Wales are showing signs of genuine competitiveness at the top end of the game and anybody that doesn't think so may have a few shocks in the not to distant future.

Yes England made that mistake just a few weeks ago Whistle

by robbo277 Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:30 am

A very good performance by Wales, but it will be interesting to see how they go now, with almost every game now a knock-out game, the pressure will most certainly be on Wales.

England, on the other hand, got the win and with two "minnows" in the next two games can set about getting the combinations and patterns right.

by majesticimperialman Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:36 am

I thought Wales was very very unlucky today against the boks.

England played very rusterly if that is the right word, they (England)seemd to be under the cosh for most of the game, a bit rudder less shell we say.

Wales on the other hand played just about the best Rugby i have seen them play for along time.

All teams can now go away and concentrate on the next game, teams need and i believe will improve and learn from this opening game.

by Shifty Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:39 am

Well to be fair Wales did beat England, and Argentina in the last few weeks.
I agree though England have bigger stronger forwards and with a good pack you always have a chance.
The English don't suffer from the same inferiority complex as Wales and Scotland either, they don't see themselves as weaker than South Africa or Australia and have no mental blocks in games with them.

by lostinwales Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:41 am

And Argentina played a good deal better against England than they did against Wales

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:41 am

Well gone guys thats the way to do it,,A reasonable debate confuses the wums.

by Shifty Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:43 am

lostinwales wrote:And Argentina played a good deal better against England than they did against Wales

Actually no they didn't, they totally dominated Wales in the first half, but their kicker missed everything. then Wales scored 2 tries in a minute and a half and won the game, at the end of the first half.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:44 am

I've got a horrible feeling that by tomorrow the Welsh will, collectively, have convinced themselves that their beautiful loss means they are in fact the best team in the world and should beat everyone.

What they actually did was get ahead and throw it away and THAT should be the focus of their attention. No matter how heroic or beautiful it was still a defeat. Now Samoa and Fiji are serious bananaskins and Wales have no slack to make up for a bad game. You've gone from potentially topping the group to potentially not making the Quarters.

This is the third or fourth time I've seen Wales get ahead of SH opposition and then just throw it away. Very frustrating.

by Bullsbok Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:47 am

A concept well understood by SH teams and fans . We dont glorify losses regardless of how heroic they were .

by Shifty Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:50 am

Cowshot wrote:I've got a horrible feeling that by tomorrow the Welsh will, collectively, have convinced themselves that their beautiful loss means they are in fact the best team in the world and should beat everyone.

Hang on.... we knew we were the best team in the World BEFORE the game today! Headscratch

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:56 am

Alyn:

Sorry - I should have realised.

(It's true what they say: You can never beat the Welsh at Rugby. You can only score more points than them. Whistle

)

by nottins_jones Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:00 am

What a muppet @ the poster.

If we finish second and England top their group could we meet them at some point in the KO stages?

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:03 am

nottin_jones

chill with the personal abuse mate, it's a valid question the OP asks, albeit maybe the timing is a little out so soon after the Welsh defeat.

by nottins_jones Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:09 am

Sorry.
What's valid about the thoughts on England winning world cups because they don't play rugby and Wales don't win world cups because they play attractive rugby? Poor article and I don't see how that could generate a discussion. And as a moderator you could at least edit out all the typo's for him.

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:11 am

Is calling somebody a muppet classed as personal abuse ? I thought it was just a urban word for ignorant.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:13 am

The question asked is this...

What would people prefer a scappy uninspired WIN or a gallant loss? Id chhose what England did every time

Seems a fair enough question to me.

And in relation to the typos, I'd have to give up my day job to edit all of those on this forum! laughing

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:19 am

I would have taken England's group over ours but then again tough games prepare you for the next stage.

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:22 am

This sounds like the old discussion about style of play. I still maintain winning rugby is attractive Rugby. Losing Rugby is less so. A good coach and manager will tailor their game plan to their personnel. If you have big straight ahead beef fed lads then the England/Springbok style might be best. If you have more mobile better runners then more open Rugby might take advantage of your personnel better. Which is why in the 2007 final we had a low scoring tactical match. A match between, say, Wales and Oz might have the scoreboard turning over regularly.

The only goal is to win. And the best coaches use a plan which takes advantage of the skills of their personnel. To me, style doesn't matter. Results do.

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:23 am

I'd have taken a gallant win Smile

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:26 am

LDCPete wrote:The question asked is this...

What would people prefer a scappy uninspired WIN or a gallant loss? Id chhose what England did every time

Seems a fair enough question to me.

Pete, apologies if I am misreading your intent here, but I don't feel a tactical match is uninspired. Might not be everyones cup of tea. But one could argue the tough defense and fighting for inches could be very inspiring. Back to the wall, fighing inch by inch. That kind of thing.

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:28 am

Yes but the op is comparing Argentina with South Africa going by Wales performance today I have no doubt we would have beaten Argentina.
Would England going by yesterdays performance have run South Africa so close ?

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:38 am

I would like to add this, team A has the majority of possession they attack channel one, they attack wide when they feel the gaps are there, every now and then they kick an up and under to put the defence and aerial skills of the opposition under pressure and test them.

Team B defends the whole time, they tackle the opposition back so that they don't gain the advantage of the gain line.

Team a eventually leads by less than a score through some penalties, team B living off scraps for possession breaks out from their half and eventually after some phase play gains a penalty in the opposition half, they opt to go for the sideline, after winning the lineout team A thwarts the maul and team B has to start attacking by going to channel one and varying to go wide, eventually after repeated rucks they score a try under the posts.

Both teams have provided for exhilirating rugby.

Team A, with their attacking play and retaining possession, showing patience in attack and holding on to the ball in the tackle and breakdown.

Team B, with their courageous defence, or offensive defence, their ability to use little possesion to gain territory. They take the risk of not going to posts but to rather attack the goal line with a line out. Then when they score eventually after retaining possession with multi phases and clinical finishing.

In my opinion both of the teams have provided the spectator with entertainment, now use that scenario for todays test or any other test you may have seen in a Tri Nation series or Six Nation series. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guarantee any fan today with a vested interest in this test match and even those who are neutrals, did not for one second during this test match think "hell what a bore"

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:39 am

On yesterdays performance probably not Cymro, however it is unlikely that the England performance against SA were they playing today would be the same as it was against Argentina.

You can only beat what is put in front of you.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:39 am

I thought the OP was comparing English and Welsh reactions. England struggled badly and won. English supporters are muttering but accept the win.

Wales play beautifully, had a lead with ten minutes to go AND momentum yet still contrived to lose. For about the 4th time in the same way against SH opposition in the last few years. And very many Welsh supporters are behaving as though they'd won something.

It seems to me that the difference in attitude illustrated may well have something to do with England having won a WC and Wales not.

by nottins_jones Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:42 am

Cowshot wrote: And very many Welsh supporters are behaving as though they'd won something.

It seems to me that the difference in attitude illustrated may well have something to do with England having won a WC and Wales not.

Really???

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:44 am

Cowshot - I don't think I've seen any Welsh poster behave it that way. Yes many of us are proud of the performance, but I'm pretty sure every Welsh fan on here has stated how absolutely gutted they are that we lost. Bit confused by that statement of yours, have to say.

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:46 am

Cowshot, but you are commenting about the reactions of the supporters. Do you think it might translate to the players?

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:48 am

In the past Welsh players probably would have been happy walking off the field after running South Africa so close but they sure did not look happy today.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:59 am

Cowshot - I don't think I've seen any Welsh poster behave it that way. Yes many of us are proud of the performance, but I'm pretty sure every Welsh fan on here has stated how absolutely gutted they are that we lost. Bit confused by that statement of yours, have to say.

Perhaps I would be better to say that the pride in the performance seems greater than the acceptance of the reality of the loss? No matter how proud it made you feel, it got you nothing. In fact less than nothing, because it has made the rest of the competition harder for you

Namibia, the USA and Russia should be settling for pride in performance. Shouldn't Welsh sights be set higher?

Cowshot, but you are commenting about the reactions of the supporters. Do you think it might translate to the players?

Yes, absolutely. Watching Gareth Thomas on ITV played a large part in me posting in this vein. Ok, he's an ex-player, but if that's the real Welsh attitude they really have a problem.

In the past Welsh players probably would have been happy walking off the field after running South Africa so close but they sure did not look happy today.

No, but my point is that by tomorrow they'll have talked themselves into being proud of the performance. Gareth Thomas was hard at it after the game, saying he'd be happier as a Welsh player than a SA one after that game.

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:02 am

To put that performance in against the reigning world champions....yes we can be rightly proud of our team, I think it would be weird not to be. We're all gutted because we so wanted the win. Can't see the problem in feeling that way honestly.

by Shifty Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:03 am

rugbydreamer wrote:To put that performance in against the reigning world champions....yes we can be rightly proud of our team, I think it would be weird not to be. We're all gutted because we so wanted the win. Can't see the problem in feeling that way honestly.

Exactly, our boys did their best and that's all you can ask. thumbsup

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:06 am

Are you talking about Garerth Thomas the rugby league player who played no part in the game today ?
Have a look at a recording of todays match just after the ref blows the final whistle... come back and tell me if they look like guys who are happy with a loss...

Bit of advice take what ex players tell you with a pinch of salt.

by GavinDragon Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:08 am

while on the flip side ive never seen a SH celebrate so much after beating us

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:10 am

To put that performance in against the reigning world champions....yes we can be rightly proud of our team, I think it would be weird not to be. We're all gutted because we so wanted the win. Can't see the problem in feeling that way honestly.

To be ahead, with momentum in your favour, with ten minutes to go and lose? What is there to be proud of in that? You lost when you should have won.

If an England side did that, no matter how many pretty moves were involved, we'd be giving them hell. You should have won that game. Excuses don't win competitions.

by welshy824 Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:13 am

cowshot actually we got a losing bp which could come in pretty handy.

and lets not pretened england were all that good, they were lucky to escape argentina and i am sure scotland would love nothing more than to stick it to them, so england are not home and dry at all.

and yes in regards to the players mentality, the welsh players looked gutted because i think they realised how close they came. and in reference to wales throwing away the game that is rubbish, the substitutions SA made were instrumental and they tbf showed why they are world champions knowing how to shut a game off (something which wales need to learn if they are able to compete against the top 3)

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:22 am

I'm not proud of the loss, don't think I've ever said that Headscratch

This is the best Wales have played in over 2 years, it's a natural reaction to be proud of the performance.

We're all devestated we didn't win, and having watched the match again, I can't quite believe we didn't. We made key errors. It's a cruel lesson we've been dished out today and we're hurting. BUt we did a lot of good as well. The loss shouldn't rule that out.

by nottins_jones Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:26 am

Well you all seem to be baffled by what Cowshot said as am I, but I'm still wondering why he went on to say "It seems to me that the difference in attitude illustrated may well have something to do with England having won a WC and Wales not." ?

by iso Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:26 am

I'm certainly not sugar coating this impotent loss. My overriding emotion after watching that implosion was anger. I hope the players feel the same. Since we don't have another opportunity to play SA in the group stages then this anger should be directed at our three(+) games.

Well done to SA for a calm and measured defense, and the tactical nous to use the bench to good effect.

I'm not buying the SA injury angle because we all have injuries.

I'm not buying the SA playing badly angle because you only play as well as your opposition allows you to play.

They we given opportunities to show their efficiency in defense and took their two chances when they came.

They place kicked well.

They calmly went through the phases in the last five minutes.

Above all they didn't panic.

Congratulations to SA and I hope your fans enjoy the win.

A win is a win and anything less is pointless. If we are happy in defeat then we are simply stating that we don't deserve to mentally stand shoulder to shoulder with the big three. International rugby of that intensity and quality is won and lost based on the top three inches.

If we continue to play like that and with a greater consistently then the big three will eventually start to fall.

Did we play well?

Well there were some great moments, and some much less so. Some of our split decision making was shocking.

We played ok, we certainly didn't play 'above' ourselves, we simply played as ourselves.

And 'that kick', well, I have my own opinion but I'm an entire hemisphere away, so maybe not the best vantage point, I wasn't stood below the upright. It was adjudged to be wide, the official had a better view that me. I'm ok with that.

Angry and frustrated.

by majesticimperialman Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:27 am

I know we will never know, but do you think that Wales might, might of won if they had taken off with 10/15 minutes to go Shane Williams and replaced him with Lee Half Penny?

Just a thought it seemed liked evry time Shane got the ball he was well tackled. 2/3 SA players on him.

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:29 am

and lets not pretened england were all that good, they were lucky to escape argentina and i am sure scotland would love nothing more than to stick it to them, so england are not home and dry at all.

England were pants. If we don't improve someone's going to hand us our heads on a plate. But that isn't the point of the thread.

in reference to wales throwing away the game that is rubbish, the substitutions SA made were instrumental and they tbf showed why they are world champions knowing how to shut a game off (something which wales need to learn if they are able to compete against the top

As I recall it, after you took the lead there were some good attacks that got you up towards the SA line, then you stalled, coughed up the ball TWICE and BAM, you were under your own posts. The substitutes may have helped, but if Welsh errors had not handed SA the ball and put you back in your own 22 they would have had a MUCH tougher job.

And if opposition substitutions are an acceptable excuse for losing, well...

Well you all seem to be baffled by what Cowshot said as am I, but I'm still wondering why he went on to say "It seems to me that the difference in attitude illustrated may well have something to do with England having won a WC and Wales not." ?

Ah well. I've done my best to explain. Sorry it's not good enough.

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:29 am

SA were double/triple tackling most players to be fair. The Doc especially. Not sure what difference, if any, 1/2p would have made.

by Cymroglan Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:36 am

Cowshot you seem to use the word excuses as the main focus of your argument.
Did any Welsh players make excuses ?

by Cowshot Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:52 am

Cymro: Look, if the attitude expressed by iso is the majority one I'd meet in Wales then fine. But that isn't the impression I get on these threads. Which was that Wales were very proud of their performance and felt they should be happier than the South Africans after the game.

I have seen no Welsh players say anything. I saw Gareth Thomas (50+ Welsh Caps?) and Gatland talking hard about the positives and many Welsh posts on about how encouraging the game was.

Encouraging? To lose like that from there? Oh man...

THIS is the main focus of my argument.

If I have misunderstood, sorry. But a lot of folk have the same impression as me about the general Welsh reaction and if the impression is correct then I think it does play a part in Wales not winning a World Cup.

by Guest Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:56 am

Cowshot wrote:Cymro: Look, if the attitude expressed by iso is the majority one I'd meet in Wales then fine. But that isn't the impression I get on these threads. Which was that Wales were very proud of their performance and felt they should be happier than the South Africans after the game.

I have seen no Welsh players say anything. I saw Gareth Thomas (50+ Welsh Caps?) and Gatland talking hard about the positives and many Welsh posts on about how encouraging the game was.

Encouraging? To lose like that from there? Oh man...

THIS is the main focus of my argument.

If I have misunderstood, sorry. But a lot of folk have the same impression as me about the general Welsh reaction and if the impression is correct then I think it does play a part in Wales not winning a World Cup.

Who on earth said that!? If someone did it can only have been 1 poster and not expressed by the majority.

Alfie has 100 caps for Wales and I thought he was talking a lot of nonsense. He's the only Welsh ex-player/pundit I;ve seen saying things like that as well. His word is not gospel!

Gatland said yes he was encouraged by it (a lot of players really came of age today in a v young side), but that it wasn't good enough and we should have got the win.

by nottins_jones Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:59 am

Cowshot you said a difference in attitudes between Wales and England has something to do with one team winning a world cup and the other not winning a world cup. Since your arguement was wrong in the beginning I don't get the point of that statement, that's all.

"And if opposition substitutions are an acceptable excuse for losing, well..."

Oh man... It weren't an excuse. Do you just select the threads and opinions you want to pay attention to? Most of us said before the game we would lose and we said one of the main reasons for this would be the fact SA have a much stronger bench. We believed unloading the bench to be part of SA's tactic and we were correct. Bismarck Du Plessis and Willhelm Alberts to bring onto the field, need I say much more?

by mckay1402 Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:02 am

Gatland looked like he was going to cry. that is not the face of someone who has accepted a defeat as positive.

this reminds me of NZ 2004 where we led all the way through and lost by a point. we took a lot of encouragement from it and went on to a grandslam the following season.

Cowshot I think the point you're trying to make is correct but I don't think it applies in this case. Some fans are very happy that Wales stood up so well as I think many of us when we saw the SA team sheet were expecting the worst. I think it says more about SA character to come back when they had been battered so much than it does about Wales. Don't worry Cowshot, they'll learn from it and lets hope they get to play England soon so we can test out your premise. Except we know how that would go because we saw it a few weeks ago

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