NZ vs Japan - Match thread

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

First topic message reminder :

Rather poignant minute's silence for the Christchurch and Japan earthquake victims.

And the game's underway.

[mckay1402]

The thing is it wasn't that long ago that Japan lost by over 100 to new zealand so they are making progress, even if it is small. the game is growing there and they will be competative

[rodders]

Men against boys rugby is sort of depressing.

No I don't think so Portnoy. This is Japans oportunity to play against the best. They will learn far more from this defeat than winning numerous Pacific cups (or whatever they call it).

There will be mismatches in any sport but there has to be to grow the game.

I think Japan were marvellous against France but were always likely to struggle to back that performance up against the ABs.

I think the "lesser" Nations have really fronted up so far and played some great stuff.

[chewed_mintie]

Processional rugby. Whatever is the point? Any of us who have played rugby and know beforehand that no matter how well your team plays then you are in for a stuffing will know the feeling. There was a post yesterday which raised this debate and it should have been delayed.

Men against boys rugby is sort of depressing.

Speak for yourself! I played club rugby in Brisbane in 2002, one level below the then Super 12. My team was cack compared with the other clubs, we had no wallabies or reds to boost us and shipped points in industrial quantities that year. We played Canberra Vikings at Ballymore (they weren't allowed in the Sydney comp) and were the Brumbies 2XV. Among their players I marked a young, soon to be Wallaby later that year, Matt giteau (amongst other well known players). The gist is we got tonked that day, however we pummelled them for the first 20 mins and managed a couple of good tries. Their coaches told ours that was the most physical game they had all season even though they put 80 on us.

If there is no point in competing and doing you best regardless then you aren't a fan of rugby at heart and never will be. Suggest you stick to your cozy little premiership old fruit

[chewed_mintie]

Also, it wasn't that long ago England were on the end of 'processional rugby' think 1998. Maybe you boys should've been left out of the 99 WC for that hey?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Japan didn´t play their A squad. They´re saving them rightly for the matches against Tonga and Canada. So it merely showed that the lesser nations still don´t have the depth of the big nations but their A squads are improving.

As for NZ, it seems that there are too many options. Weepu going to first five and Slade to fullback means alarm bells are ringing there for Henry. Jane needing some rugby and he gets taken off for SBW who is not a specialist winger. Mealamu is captain and he only plays a half. NZ have a bench but I think Henry is still tinkering with his team. Against France, there might be players not used to playing for 80 minutes.

So when is the A squad going to get some time together to get combinations going. A match against Canada after will no doubt see more changes and then there are three knockout games. Surely the A squad will play those games but will they be gelling and will the returning players coming back from injury be in good enough shape.

Certainly some nervous times ahead but next match is crucial for NZ. I much prefer to go through as pool winner and let the other matches play out on the other side of the draw with a likely quarter final against Scotland or Argentina.

But even Japan showed glimpses tonight that if you rush up on defence and pressure the ball, NZ look shaky. It´s alright against teams with holes in their defence but NZ have yet to come up against a good side yet who can put enough pressure on NZ. Let´s hope France bring their A team and their A game and give them a great game.

kia kaha

[emack2]

You`re pathetic,All Blacks score 13 tries,forced to play cobbled together team.Gave every one a run,Slade kicks 9 goals,and misses some too.Sir Johnny missed loads too and he was indoors.
IF anyone else had done that with a scratch team you would be lauding them to the hills.France did`nt exactly blow them away did they and that
was there FIRST team.
All Blacks strategy is obvious isn`t it?throw the French match because they don`t think they can beat them twice.
Avoid the Boks ,and get the softer side of the draw RIGHT?that`s how you win RWC`s isn`t it targetting games you can win.
With luck,the AB`s may struggle past Canada by a couple of points,then a quarter final against England.Which they will lose by as many points as you can think off.ALL PENALTIES kicked by Johnny Wilkinson,God fans ?you make me sick.It was an opposed training exercise,with as much validty as the 3Ns.Games with teams hiding players in the name of the cursed RWC.Which incidentally after winning is the start of 4 years being beaten by everyone and his dog for the winner.
NZ Fans get behind your team and your players and encourage them,you have the best Players,and some of the worst fan anywhere.
And they accuse me of not being a fan because I hate RWCS ,I give up.
If they`d lost you have something to moan about,that is the first blowout so far in a RWC.

[Portnoy]

France will be guaranteed to bring forth their A team and given the regularity of reversals against the Gauls, GH won't be taking any chances.

[brennomac]

Kahui! Wish I could see....

Cari, I'm shocked that Tommy Boweand Bernard Brogan (for the benefit of our overseas brethren Brogan is the star forward for the Dublin galeic foot ball0 team are no longer numbers one in your affections. If this abandonment of[ BB means that the Dubs choke on Sunday you will have incurred the undying hatred of Hill 16

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Easy there Alan. Yes AB fans are picky and greedy. But this is no scratch side. McCaw, Carter, Read and Dagg or Muliaina out and that is a lot of experience and class out admittedly. But plenty of experience still on the pitch. Of course there are positives with lovely interplay. I am 100 per cent behind my team but the whole part of this forum is to point the good and the bad.

The ABs set high standards and crowing about scoring 13 tries won´t do them any good for the latter stages of the tournament. Other teams would be happy to score 13 tries but we have our eyes on the big prize and these games don´t mean a lot.

I agree that there are impossibly high expectations on the players simply because we haven´t performed in RWCs and this is one of the reasons why you don´t like them. But there it is. No point in just saying go team, you hammered Japan today, looking good. The next game will provide a sterner test and NZ still have a lot of work to do there to get a win, which I think is a positive.

I am 100 per cent behind my beloved All Blacks, don´t you worry about that Alan. But I´m not going to sit there with rose tinted glasses. That´s why the AB coach has a worse job than the Prime Minister. Is that right? No. But it just goes to show what rugby means for NZers. There is an ugly side to that - people pledging their support for Australia, people wishing players get injured etc - that but there is a lot of mana invested in the black shirt. On the flip side there is a lot of antagonism towards the ABs. Just read some of the posts about Carter and McCaw out injured.

But we AB fans want perfection. That´s impossible but it´s what we want. But if someone beats us I´ll be the first to congratulate them. If we win like we did tonight, I´ll be looking for areas to improve on. You might see that as negative but I see it as putting things in perspective knowing that tougher games lie ahead.

kia kaha aotearoa means be strong new zealand. If you can´t take criticism, then you´re not strong. Peace out and some great games of footy to look forward to on the weekend. I love rugby and if you can´t enjoy the World Cup - it may look as though I´m not but believe me I´ll be watching the highlights of that game over and over like I did on the Tonga game - then I feel sorry for you because this is great! I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of the history of the game but you need to get with the modern times and know that this World Cup is here to say. Have a hug you big lug.

[OzT]

Cari, I'm shocked that Tommy Boweand Bernard Brogan (for the benefit of our overseas brethren Brogan is the star forward for the Dublin galeic foot ball0 team are no longer numbers one in your affections. If this abandonment of[ BB means that the Dubs choke on Sunday you will have incurred the undying hatred of Hill 16

I really tried to follow that bit lost it just past the '( for the benefit...'

Where is the end ')'???? and is Hill 16 a stand?? So why would Cari incur their undying hatred???

[disneychilly]

I see Australia as more of a threat than South Africa to be honest. Would rather se us top the group thanks!

[Cymroglan]

The ITV studio pundits said that the New Zealand players did not look like they enjoy their rugby they looked like they were carrying the weight of 4 million fans.
They looked liked they were feeling the pressure even when the game was out of sight.

Their words not mine.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Definitely disneychilly and then Australia have some hard matches against Wales and England. I much prefer Scotland, South Africa and then Australia in the final if both sides make it that far rather than meeting them before. If we get to the final, then although the pressure will be on, we should also be relieved enough and hungry enough to get the business done. The other side of the draw scares me a lot more and so the France game is vital.

kia kaha

[BATH_BTGOG]

I'm convinced now that NZ are going to choke again, AUS, SA, FRA and ENG have a great chance, if any of these teams get in the faces of these guys then they'll roll over, target Carter and its game over for the All Blacks, the pressure they're under is there to see.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

The ITV studio pundits said that the New Zealand players did not look like they enjoy their rugby they looked like they were carrying the weight of 4 million fans.
They looked liked they were feeling the pressure even when the game was out of sight.

Their words not mine.

That certainly seemed the case for Slade but really only him. Thinking they´re making too much of this home pressure. That crowd support and home games will be like an extra game later on rather than a negative. I think it was more pressure for Slade to perform and nail his spot in the team rather than 4 million people. He let himself down by letting the occasion get to him. That´s only two games he´s started and two games where he´s failed to impress. When he´s come on the pitch, he looks more composed. Hopefully Carter will be back against France but he has another chance against Canada to rectify his poor display today I think.

Plenty of smiles from Nonu, Smith, Kahui. Jane didn´t look too happy being taken off but that´s a good thing in my opinion. 13 tries is still 13 tries.

[TheGreyGhost]

Yawn.

I'm confined now that NZ are going to choke again

You're confined alright. Mentally.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I'm confined now that NZ are going to choke again, AUS, SA, FRA and ENG have a great chance, if any of these teams get in the faces of these guys then they'll roll over, target Carter and its game over for the All Blacks, the pressure they're under is there to see.

All those teams have a chance, unquestionably Bath. But this talk of being confined or convinced (certainly confined to the same tired old cliches) NZ choking again is old hat. NZ are beatable and all those teams you mentioned believe that NZ are beatable and are capable of beating them. But they´ll have to play out of their skins to do so and NZ are capable of beating all of them. So it´s a matter of who can put it all together on the day. But choking before the game starts is not going to happen. Outplaying them on the day is what it´s about.

Good luck against Georgia. 13 tries is asking too much against those guys. They are bigger units than a warehouse full of fridge freezers. But let´s see if you can manage more than 1.

[TheGreyGhost]

The ITV studio pundits said that the New Zealand players did not look like they enjoy their rugby they looked like they were carrying the weight of 4 million fans.
They looked liked they were feeling the pressure even when the game was out of sight. Their words not mine.

If you hadn't made half a dozen posts on other threads mocking the lack of insight of the ITV studio pundits already Cymroglan...if only.

I had a laugh today when which ever uneducated English commentator called Toeava a "make-shift full back playing out of position" before spending 10 minutes with a flea in his ear from his producer back-tracking.

Slade missed some easy shots at goal, his handling let him down and he gave away an intercept try for Japan's only points. This following up a shocker against South Africa. He, along with Guildford need to be injured in training and replaced with Gear and Cruden, or if I was AB coach Gear and Tomasi Cama.

[Cymroglan]

The ITV studio pundits said that the New Zealand players did not look like they enjoy their rugby they looked like they were carrying the weight of 4 million fans.
They looked liked they were feeling the pressure even when the game was out of sight. Their words not mine.

If you hadn't made half a dozen posts on other threads mocking the lack of insight of the ITV studio pundits already Cymroglan...if only.

I had a laugh today when which ever uneducated English commentator called Toeava a "make-shift full back playing out of position" before spending 10 minutes with a flea in his ear from his producer back-tracking.

Slade missed some easy shots at goal, his handling let him down and he gave away an intercept try for Japan's only points. This following up a shocker against South Africa. He, along with Guildford need to be injured in training and replaced with Gear and Cruden, or if I was AB coach Gear and Tomasi Cama.

GG you have mistaken me for another poster.

[BATH_BTGOG]

Feeling the heat yet GG?
1987 was a long long time ago.

[yappysnap]

I'd be happy with 4 tries, which i think is our upper limit unless Georgia are seriously beat after their Wednesday game.

To be honest i'd be massively worried if Eng had to play NZ in the knock outs, I'd fancy our chances against any of the other teams but to me NZ are still looking way too good.

All this talk of choking is frankly rubbish. Yes obviously they are beatable, just like any team. But are they going to suddenly fall apart in fits? No, if you're going to beat the AB's you had better bring the best A game in the world, and a Flip good plan B just in case.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Yes yappysnap. The voice of reason doesn´t seem to be lost on you. Wum on Wum action appears to get Bath excited.

England will be looking to qualify top of their group and then will fancy their chances on that side of the draw. I agree they won´t be too happy to meet the ABs in the quarters but they will fancy their chances on the other side of the draw.

[rodders]

Jeebus no wonder NZ struggle to win the RWC! No matter what they do they get slated!

NZ have scored more tries in the last two games the Ireland have since the game went professional!

I think it's time for a bit of perspective!

[TheGreyGhost]

The biggest concern for NZ will be getting the first choice team on the field consistently. It's the 1 or 2% chances that win the cup, and at the moment the accuracy is too low. Even in the blow out this morning, too much work was made of several scores and some clear chances went begging. This is about combinations and fluency.

Aside from injury, the biggest weakness seems to be at 9 and 10, with Cowan erratic, Weepu out of shape and Ellis, discarded recently now the apparent front runner. There is no back up for Carter at all in the NZ squad. Unless Slade can get over his big match yips or Evans can make a long haul flight at a minutes notice, then if Carter is ruled out with the wrist/ankle/back we're not going to have enough class to take out the Springboks or the Aussies.

The set piece has looked shakey, with Woodcock struggling for form and the lineout getting the wobbles today against those renowned giants of set piece mastery, Japan. 4 throws we either lost, or failed to control. We have the personnel in that department, but just need to get the composure and fitness right.

This is (as always) a beatable AB team. A loss would not necessarily imply "choking".

But you know, nice WUM attempt Bath; it must have scalded watching the ABs run in try after try after try this morning after enduring England's last outing? When even Colin Slade out-performs Wilkinson on goal kicking duty I can understand your transferred nerves.

[yappysnap]

That's the thing, you winge about Slade but he's still probable one of the best 10's in the whole comp. Only behind Carter, Cooper and errr....

[Cymroglan]

Priestland

[bedfordwelsh]

We all know these results do happen BUT if you ask any of the Japanes playeres would they rather

A. Go to the WC and lose like they did but experience playing in the competition and against the best or

B. Staying at home and watching it on tele I bet 100% of them would select A.

[TheGreyGhost]

That's the thing, you winge about Slade but he's still probable one of the best 10's in the whole comp. Only behind Carter, Cooper and errr....

Well he's the tournament's top point scorer so far, and has already scored as many tries as Jonny Wilkinson has in world cups.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Jeebus no wonder NZ struggle to win the RWC! No matter what they do they get slated!

NZ have scored more tries in the last two games the Ireland have since the game went professional!

I think it's time for a bit of perspective!

NZ know to win this tournament games like this don´t do anything to change what you need to do: play low-error rugby, doing the basics well. It may sound like whinging for the complete performance but you have to stand back from the game and see where your weaknesses are that better teams will exploit. Plenty of positives but plenty of things to work on for the next game.

kia kaha

[TheGreyGhost]

All I know is that if we meet Japan B in the final, we should be fine.

[bedfordwelsh]

GG,

Not sure there buddy, you might have to up your game a bit and bring back Carter and the like

[rodders]

All I know is that if we meet Japan B in the final, we should be fine.

Back up the truck there GG, positivity is one thing, arrogance is another.

[TheGreyGhost]

I said "should be", I'm not taking anything for granted.

[BATH_BTGOG]

Just as well Grey Ghost on what I've seen so far!

Have NZ peaked too soon?

Again!

[rodders]

I said "should be", I'm not taking anything for granted.

Good stuff GG! Japans B side should not be taken lightly!

[kiakahaaotearoa]

So are they choking or peaking too soon? I´m confused BATH. Can we have some consistency please in your foam-mouthed ramblings.

[TheGreyGhost]

I think Bath is upset because he's slowly realising the implication of having signed Donald.

[BATH_BTGOG]

Come on GG this is the Jeff we're talking about, Donald will do just fine, kiakah...... I'm a little intoxicated due to a liquid lunch , it is a Friday after all.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

All I know is that if we meet Japan B in the final, we should be fine.

Except your Union will be bankrupted because they didnt fix the draw/refs to ensure that England got through right?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Well good on you Bath. At least you´re doing something right. Have a good one.

[emack2]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/rugby/5638178/Worrying-trends-of-2007-campaign-emerging
THAT is my thoughts exactly,By the record Graham Henry and Co.are the best Coaches in World Rugby.
BUT by circumstances or otherwise the All Blacks have`nt had a settled side since 2010.
Every one called lievremont a clown when he changes 12 players for each match.Ted and co .has been doing just that in 2006 he produced a series of unbeatable teams.Lost a single match all year to the Boks.
He did`nt have a settled team,or even know his best team,it seems the same is occurring now.
Sensibly he rested players with niggles saving them for the French match,he has the luxury of losing the pool match and still going through.
Aus have fielded virtually the same core side and fine tuned around the edges.The Boks since there home 3Ns matches have done the same building up a core side and fine tuning around the edges too.
NZ we are told A team will start v Tonga and AGAIN the tinkering.I hate the things but RWC are won by settled teams not constant tinkering.
I am fully aware of the modern world,THAT RWC is perceived to be the only thing that matters.
It was`nt in 1999 or 2003 required to devalue domestic tournaments to win a RWC.Only since 2007 was the precedent set,YES call me old fashioned when an All Black or Bok if he could walk.Playedhis heart out,hamstrings part off thegame get on with it.
Of course with the work load youhave to rest players,and off course RWC is a Squad,not Team event now.
ALL teams are effected by injuries to key players,France have lost Skrela,England Sheridan,Ireland,and Argentina as well.
If Australia lose Genia,and Pocock how good are there back ups.and so on.
In the back end of the 3Ns,if SA had taken the right options Australia would have lost.Australia were rampant in first half in Brisbane,catching the all Blacks cold,after 15 minute there back row was hampered by injury.
In the second half the All Blacks just played it amongst the forwards,created and finished chances.Aus won by an individual try but it wasn`t a blow out.
NONE of BIG 8 sides have been convincing,BUT the All Blacks have been the BEST to date.
Wobbly line outs,first two by Boks,Matfield disrupts Wale throw,then Wales immediately come away with the ball,second line out Smit throws over the top to a Welshman.Matfield then jumps across a Wales early,no penalty then goesof injured.
Fact is the All Blacks can do right,win it`s not enough points,so and so was rubbish etc. lose and it s "choked again"
RWC means World Champions,BUT when the "chokers" win twice as many matches between RWCs.As The Boks of 1995 and 2007,0r England 2003-11
And as least as many if not more than Aus in 1991 and 1999.
Fact is you are RWC winners for the TOURNAMENT afterwards its all down hill.
When the Pundits on the TV refer to THE best team in the World it s seldom the World Champions.

[TheGreyGhost]

If Australia lose Genia,and Pocock how good are there back ups.and so on.

It's like you're some kind of psychic emack. That's just spooky.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/14811966.stm

[Guest]

i watched this game, and dont matter how bad japan are, new zealand produced a very good performance!

[Taylorman]

Just got up.
What a poor thread. NZ thash japan. Score sone scintillating tries snd all some can do is reach for their tired old handbags.
NZ are peaking. NZ dont enjoy their rugby. NZ are certain to choke. NZ are under too much pressure to win at home. NZ are still tinkering.
Man. Nothong about the game itself. For those who support other teams while making such idiotic, redundant comments, I hope your team meets these pathetic ab's and get your beans. For they will be well deserved.

[TheGreyGhost]

Yeah, not sure what they were on about with the "NZ aren't smiling" thing. There was a lot of joy out there for NZ who seemed to be mostly enjoying themselves, other than poor old Colin Slade, who just seriously needs a night with some dirty girls and bottle of vodka.

[Taylorman]

Ha ha. Yeah slade did look a little tight. Can't ssy that for the rest though.

I just got up to read the rest of the match thread from last night and had to scroll through 2 pages of drivel to get to anything near the match itself. Poor old kia having to defend all the usual tripe that gets raised when the abs are back on track.
Can't get em on the field so they get out the usual cliches.
Anyway
im over it. Too much to enjoy in this cup to wallow in all this.
Looking forward to one upset from the ireland wales or SA matches.
Lets see how much these sides enjoy their matches.
I for one am going to enjoy all three matches. Regardless of who wins!

[Gatts]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bendirs/2011/09/all_blacks_glitter_but_doubts.html

Interesting reading....talks about Henry employing a closet rotation system again. The impression i get is that this is all pre match nerves before the French game and we will know all about NZ's potential at this RWC after they have faced a test, to date any analysis of their ability is based on a poor tri nations and entirely comprehensive wins against 3rd rate opposition

[emack2]

My thoughts on this RWC,the reasons I dislike them for everyone knows.I won`t repeat them,BUT the IRB only allowing 4 day turn arounds for some Tier2 teams is Criminal why should they be handicapped.
I thought they changed that after 1987,HATE some of the things done to try and win an RWC.The Rugby part I am loving,especially the recent Samoa match.I have watched most of them and enjoyed them in different ways.
I have just finished watching the match,and thoroughly enjoyed it.Japan were out classed but kept right on trying.Nigel Owens was whistle happy
I wonder what match the pundits were watching,of COURSE theres pressure on the ABs to win the RWC thats stating the obvious.
Colin Slade was indifferent? I thought overall he had a pretty good game certainly a better one than Johnny Wilkinson did against Argentina.
He`s not Dan Carter what a stupid comment form an expert,THAT thinking has stopped NZ developing a substitute.Mc Alister,Donald ,Delany, Crudon none of the m were good enough as a temporary replacement.
Thomson I thought had a good game,the pundits go one about the Bok game.without qualifying it that the Bok A side was playing a scratch 15.
Ellis had a good game ,nice seeing quick feeding from the rucks.I think Weepu came on not because Slade was having a patircularly bad game.
But to give him some practice at 10 before France.Pinaar was going on about the spine of the team 8, 9,10,15.But 3 of those 4 are injured or resting or whatever.
Start Ellis with Carter,Mc Caw,Read,Muliana or Dagg end of problem,tonight he was just giving every one a run.
Meads thinks there foxing over injuries,Fitzpatrick and co.seem to think the injuries are serious.
Constant changes does`nt help continuity overall the ABs went well today for the whole 80 minutes.As the man said you can only play whats in front of you.

[emack2]

NONE of the Big 8 sides have been over impressive certainly not Australia who struggled with Italy,France with Japan ,England with Argentina ,or the Boks with Wales.
After the pool stages are decided then we shall see,a loss to France would`nt be the end of the world.Especially if they can put a fully fit side out
against England in the quarter final.Whose money would you be on for that one Gatts?

[Gatts]

NZ v Eng......at RWC at home, the team with provenance at RWC v the team who must feel destiny is upon them. Crikey what a prospect. But England aren't quite England at the moment.

NZ every time.

But, don't underestimate the effect on NZ of losing to France in the group psychologically. People keep banging on about Samoa and Wales, well if ever there was a banana skin France is for NZ, coupled with the home pressure and injury the prospect of failing again remains just as real.

And for those NZ fans who read my writing that as wishing it to happen, you are wrong. I only want my team to win, that is as far as my feelings go.

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