NZ vs Japan - Match thread

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

First topic message reminder :

Rather poignant minute's silence for the Christchurch and Japan earthquake victims.

And the game's underway.

[aucklandlaurie]

Alan
Do you really think that Australia stuggled with Italy?

[aucklandlaurie]

Gatts
And thats good, you should only be interested in the suucess of your team.......

[emack2]

If the All Blacks lose the France match,as is very possible it would be a blow
because it would be there first pool loss ever.BUT France would go into the harder side of the draw.Beating Nz is a good trick especially at home,beating them twice is an even better one.Nz v Aus any time in Nz even in a RWC.IF both teams are at full strength ,isn`t a gimme for Aus,because they won in Brisbane or Hong Kong.
Seems as if Pocock has caught a dose of the McCaws for Ireland no doubt there be a miracle cure.Like Bakkies Botha[i`m on my way home] tomorrow.

[emack2]

Auckland Laurie if they did`nt they were putting on a pretty good imatation.
have a 10 minute blitz score 4 tries.Then just walk around the park for the other 70.
God the All Blacks do that and Chris Rattue and the New Zealand Herald would really have the knives out.

[Taylorman]

Gatts.
Get over the france thing.
NZ have little to no chance of losing to france next week.
Just because they have had two massive upsets in days gone by its a bit much to just assume theyll do it again. This time the situation is different. Its not knockout and france have even hinted at throwing the match already.
So what is this france beating nz based on?
Hope?
When you look at the two teams do you honestly think theres enough to suggest a france win other than for historical reasons?
Ok if you actually rate them but youve mentioned nothing about what the french will actually do. Their strengths. Weaknesses. What about them makes you think they'll win that match. Assuming they have to actually turn up, play the match and score more points.[justify]

[Gatts]

emack

whilst france might go easier you would definitely not go easier...arg/scot if you win it, england almost certainly if you are runners up. Think you would win that but off the back of a group loss to france, england would have theirs tails up

[Gatts]

Gatts
And thats good, you should only be interested in the suucess of your team.......

as thinly veiled as your rotation policy!!!! hilarious

[Gatts]

Gatts.
Get over the france thing.
NZ have little to no chance of losing to france next week.
Just because they have had two massive upsets in days gone by its a bit much to just assume theyll do it again. This time the situation is different. Its not knockout and france have even hinted at throwing the match already.
So what is this france beating nz based on?
Hope?
When you look at the two teams do you honestly think theres enough to suggest a france win other than for historical reasons?
Ok if you actually rate them but youve mentioned nothing about what the french will actually do. Their strengths. Weaknesses. What about them makes you think they'll win that match. Assuming they have to actually turn up, play the match and score more points.[justify]

Get over the france thing...You obviously didn't read my original post did you.If you are so confident of NZ winning why are you so tense....france is their first test in this RWC...don't you agree? That arrogant/deluded that you think you are going to walk away with it? If so no wonder NZ seems incapable of winning an RWC!

France are more than capable of beating NZ next week and only the surpeme ignorance and arrogance of a NZ fan who can't accept his side is largely hubris until it proves itself at RWC would suggest otherwise...

I don't need to justify this, france may well do it for me, a top ranked side, mercurial and unpredictable.

But for you I have to think of something....wait...1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/rugby_world_cup/history/2966114.stm

especially like the first paragraph about nz being favourites

http://www.rwc2007.irb.com/home/fixtures/round=101/match=10114/report.html

blame that one on the ref?

[aucklandlaurie]

Alan
Australia took nearly all the first half to sort out that mad referee, Alain Rolland.
I had the privilege of watching the game from the second row (seats that is) and at North harbour you are very close to the touch line, anyway Horvill was absolutely screaming at him and tell him to pull his head in, once Rolland put his whistle away the game started to move on...

[emack2]

Firstly Gatts .at last we are having a sensible debate.EVERY team has a chance of beating another in a RWC.I would be very surprised if ANY side
in Englands group would give the All Blacks a problem.Even without Carter or McCaw or both they still have enough firepower to do the job.
France are France,they struggled with Japan so will probably be firing versus All Blacks.
Yachvilli and Morne Steyn are the two players that are potential banana skins.The High penalty counts by ALL sides those two are the most consistent marksmen so far.
IF the sickies are back on parade ,an Ellis /Carter pivot,Smith /Nonu mid field
Muliana ,Kahui,Dagg back three.McCaw,Thomson,Kaino back row,plus the usual first choice tight five.Ben Franks, Hore, Ali Williams,Vito,SBW,Weepu, Slade on the bench.Most bases are covered.
The squad has been chosen with [in my opinion]to many utility and not enough specialist players.
History shows NZvFrance 2-2 in RWCs,2003 and 2007 instead of playing specialists in mid field nZ fielded utility players and it bit them big time.
A lot of what went wrong for the Abs today probably would`nt have been attempted versus stronger teams.
Toeva is a player who come s to mind,think FB,Muliana,Dagg,Cory Jane,Mid field Smith , Nonu, Kahui,SBW,Think wing Guildford but he`s out of favour,Cory Jane, Dagg, Kahui,even Slade.
To my ,mind another specialist wing included was a better bet thanToeva,and Crockett over Afoa.

[emack2]

True Rolland was a pain,But Italy competed right to the end,a Yach villi or a Morne Steyn would have won that game for Italy on the penalty count alone.
The breakdown area especially australia were doing,and have been doing all the things McCaw and the All Blacks are accused of.Rolland was punishing them .A half time score 18-6 would have made Australia more circumspect in the second half.How many penalty kickable chances were turned down after the try glut.
You don`t win knockout stages on performances like that.

[Gatts]

Firstly Gatts .at last we are having a sensible debate.EVERY team has a chance of beating another in a RWC.I would be very surprised if ANY side
in Englands group would give the All Blacks a problem.Even without Carter or McCaw or both they still have enough firepower to do the job.
France are France,they struggled with Japan so will probably be firing versus All Blacks.
Yachvilli and Morne Steyn are the two players that are potential banana skins.The High penalty counts by ALL sides those two are the most consistent marksmen so far.
IF the sickies are back on parade ,an Ellis /Carter pivot,Smith /Nonu mid field
Muliana ,Kahui,Dagg back three.McCaw,Thomson,Kaino back row,plus the usual first choice tight five.Ben Franks, Hore, Ali Williams,Vito,SBW,Weepu, Slade on the bench.Most bases are covered.
The squad has been chosen with [in my opinion]to many utility and not enough specialist players.
History shows NZvFrance 2-2 in RWCs,2003 and 2007 instead of playing specialists in mid field nZ fielded utility players and it bit them big time.
A lot of what went wrong for the Abs today probably would`nt have been attempted versus stronger teams.
Toeva is a player who come s to mind,think FB,Muliana,Dagg,Cory Jane,Mid field Smith , Nonu, Kahui,SBW,Think wing Guildford but he`s out of favour,Cory Jane, Dagg, Kahui,even Slade.
To my ,mind another specialist wing included was a better bet thanToeva,and Crockett over Afoa.

Great names, great players every one. but history has shown us that lists of great players mean nothing for the ABs, each RWC you have huge names but no result.....it's something else they lack. I for one would appreciate seeing the colour of their money and less talk about just how good they are and if Colin Meads is nervous then we all best sit up and listen because he is one NZ who deserves an audience.

[aucklandlaurie]

gatts
And you're not nervous?

[Gatts]

gatts
And you're not nervous?

nervous of what exactly?

[aucklandlaurie]

not achieving victory????

[Taylorman]

Gatts.
Get over the france thing.
NZ have little to no chance of losing to france next week.
Just because they have had two massive upsets in days gone by its a bit much to just assume theyll do it again. This time the situation is different. Its not knockout and france have even hinted at throwing the match already.
So what is this france beating nz based on?
Hope?
When you look at the two teams do you honestly think theres enough to suggest a france win other than for historical reasons?
Ok if you actually rate them but youve mentioned nothing about what the french will actually do. Their strengths. Weaknesses. What about them makes you think they'll win that match. Assuming they have to actually turn up, play the match and score more points.[justify]

Get over the france thing...You obviously didn't read my original post did you.If you are so confident of NZ winning why are you so tense....france is their first test in this RWC...don't you agree? That arrogant/deluded that you think you are going to walk away with it? If so no wonder NZ seems incapable of winning an RWC!

France are more than capable of beating NZ next week and only the surpeme ignorance and arrogance of a NZ fan who can't accept his side is largely hubris until it proves itself at RWC would suggest otherwise...

I don't need to justify this, france may well do it for me, a top ranked side, mercurial and unpredictable.

But for you I have to think of something....wait...1999

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/rugby_world_cup/history/2966114.stm

especially like the first paragraph about nz being favourites

http://www.rwc2007.irb.com/home/fixtures/round=101/match=10114/report.html

blame that one on the ref?

Gatts,
Under no circumstances am I tense. In fact I'm revelling in enjoying every single aspect of this cup. Ive no worries about next weeks match given that the French win at Eden Park would be as equal an upset as the other two people go on about.But even if they do win it is not the end of the world cup for NZ.

But rather than throw newspaper clippings about I asked you why you thought France would win. I was interested in your opinion on the match. Instead you throw more newspaper clippings at it.

I didn't see your original post as you didn't write this one so I havnt' trawled through all your posts to find it. My question to you was genuine.
What of the French makes you think they can beat the AB's. Their scrum, lineout, backs, loose forwards? You dont even appear to have named any French players and instead have gone on historical clippings to make a point.

Do you have your own thoughts on the match?

It is not arrogance as much as you would like to think it is. When looking at the French and NZ teams, their progress over the last two years, the team make up and game plans I believe we have more reason to win the match. Its called confidence Gatts. Thats all.

Happy to debate the fact but sledging comments like that around is just silly. Believe me, if your side had the record of the AB's you would be 'confident' too.

[emack2]

The thing is we have only had a couple of sides with two wins so far Scotland,and NZ.France any time .any where are France,this is`nt the Nz team of 2009 in Nz. This is now,as I said there is a very real chance France
will beat Nz.Scotland will beat England,Argentina will win all there remaining games.That England will go out at the group stage.you are talking RWCs here .What happens outside them has little relevance,by tomorrow evening things will be clearer.

[Gatts]

Not really.

Different ball game for me!

Wales, like NZ, like to talk it up. We LOVE our rugby. Wales box above their weight but don't win fights, show moments of pure magic and then it all falls apart. Perhaps there are mentality issues for us as there are for NZ but that is as far as i would draw a comparison between the 2 sides apart form that we are small nations with a huge passion for rugby and sheep.

We are not good at RWC, although ironically our best perf was down there in 87. I expect us to lose each game we play as having been a fan for so many years i have become used to the disappointment...it goes with being a true fan, but always back them and hope for the boys to do well....ask any welsh fan, it is emotionally very testing so best to prep yourself for loss and then hope we can build for another Grand Slam perhaps! RWC has never been good for us so i can empathise with NZ!

For NZ at home with their issues with RWC....too much invested in mcCaw and Carter, a nation EXPECTING victory but, like their team ,perhaps so nervous about the potential to fail based on 5 previous RWC failures that they may start to prep for the worst in advance? wow that is a whole different set of pressures. We will know so much more after France. Win that well I see no potential for an upset until the semi and if any of the SA players are available and not drawing their pension, it will be as big a game as the final.

[emack2]

Hi,Taylorman welcome to the debate,France have good set piece,back row,backs[whoever they choose]who can on there day.out run ANY side.
In Yachvili they have a player who keeps the scoreboard ticking over.
All Blacks at full strength have the edge,with the right team,i.e. the Sickies firing.Read is out that`s a big minus,Ellis`s form today for me means he should start.BUT chances is are they`ll stick with Cowan.

[aucklandlaurie]

gatts
So do you not think that perhaps wales might be able to just lift their stanadard of play just that one extra notch if they perhaps did get nervous?
Its agenuine question i'm not trying to put s h i t on you...

[emack2]

Gatts are you a Welsh Supporter?,do you fancy Samoa`s chances?,how about Hook at 10 not 15?

[aucklandlaurie]

Gatts where are you????

[Gatts]

gatts
So do you not think that perhaps wales might be able to just lift their stanadard of play just that one extra notch if they perhaps did get nervous?
Its agenuine question i'm not trying to put s h i t on you...

The last thing we need is nerves...we bent over in true Weslh style in the first 10 and played catch up for 70...thats how we play and Gatts has tried to change it.

I am afraid their youth and lack of rugby leadership on the park may tell. We could have closed SA out, we won the rugby but not the game.

Samoa isn't SA and you'll know in the first 20 if they have the composure because they certainly have the players. Do we have the luck?

they stuck beautifully to their game plan against SA....so beautifully in fact they played into SA hands and allowed them to defend so tight that we couldn't get wide and allow our back 3 in.

But look at our side, Warbs is world class, and faletau and North, the 2nd youngest team at RWC, and you have to believe that its future is bright. Though for now, they are living, literally, game by game

[Taylorman]

For NZ at home with their issues with RWC....too much invested in mcCaw and Carter, a nation EXPECTING victory but, like their team ,perhaps so nervous about the potential to fail based on 5 previous RWC failures that they may start to prep for the worst in advance? wow that is a whole different set of pressures. We will know so much more after France. Win that well I see no potential for an upset until the semi and if any of the SA players are available and not drawing their pension, it will be as big a game as the final.

Well we didn't seem to need either last night. Not many teams would have scored 13 tries against Japan without their top two players, let alone with them.

You keep putting words into the mouths of us Kiwi's. We don't all expect to win it. We have had the realities of not winning it so much that we are realistic about continually harping on about the expectations. We are confident in winning it yes. But like before we have lost it so its not guaranteed. We know that.

You draw some interesting parallels the difference being that we do win most of our matches and whether you or we like it or not, gives us the right to be confident. We win 85% of all our matches and have beaten every side at least twice over the last 5 years, some more than others. We have only ever lost to 4 teams- Oz, Eng, France, SA and Wales-the last over 60 years ago.

If that were your team wouldn't you be confident.
Anyway, its a pointless argument. Your match with Samoa tomorrow is much more interesting and you might want to focus your energy that way.

[Gatts]

Gatts are you a Welsh Supporter?,do you fancy Samoa`s chances?,how about Hook at 10 not 15?

I am a proud and passionate Welsh supporter Alan. but by no means am i a rabid fan. We have been on the cusp of great things for so long but have never fulfilled our potential.

[aucklandlaurie]

Gatts i'm trying to help you..
forget about samoa, as I BELIEVE that you will win.
In fact from what I saw of wales the other day was arevelation that I hadnt seen in your team for a couple of years.
New Zealanders approach, analyse rugby different to you guys, you guys a probably laughing your jubblies off at the way we get nervous anout our team and we do it as a nation.but we know that therein lie the recipees to the answers.
Do you want to know what i think wales next task is in achieveing play at that next notch up ? and subsequent success.

[Gatts]

For NZ at home with their issues with RWC....too much invested in mcCaw and Carter, a nation EXPECTING victory but, like their team ,perhaps so nervous about the potential to fail based on 5 previous RWC failures that they may start to prep for the worst in advance? wow that is a whole different set of pressures. We will know so much more after France. Win that well I see no potential for an upset until the semi and if any of the SA players are available and not drawing their pension, it will be as big a game as the final.

Well we didn't seem to need either last night. Not many teams would have scored 13 tries against Japan without their top two players, let alone with them.

You keep putting words into the mouths of us Kiwi's. We don't all expect to win it. We have had the realities of not winning it so much that we are realistic about continually harping on about the expectations. We are confident in winning it yes. But like before we have lost it so its not guaranteed. We know that.

You draw some interesting parallels the difference being that we do win most of our matches and whether you or we like it or not, gives us the right to be confident. We win 85% of all our matches and have beaten every side at least twice over the last 5 years, some more than others. We have only ever lost to 4 teams- Oz, Eng, France, SA and Wales-the last over 60 years ago.

If that were your team wouldn't you be confident.
Anyway, its a pointless argument. Your match with Samoa tomorrow is much more interesting and you might want to focus your energy that way.

keep getting your knickers in a twist that i have an opinion...I am so not interested in what you think i should be doing. When you have finsihed shooting your bolt go read what i wrote and stop being so utterly arrogant

[Gatts]

Gatts i'm trying to help you..
forget about samoa, as I BELIEVE that you will win.
In fact from what I saw of wales the other day was arevelation that I hadnt seen in your team for a couple of years.
New Zealanders approach, analyse rugby different to you guys, you guys a probably laughing your jubblies off at the way we get nervous anout our team and we do it as a nation.but we know that therein lie the recipees to the answers.
Do you want to know what i think wales next task is in achieveing play at that next notch up ? and subsequent success.

You are all tense aren't you!! Go on then tell me the missing ingredient to your magic recipe for success

[aucklandlaurie]

gatts
Nervousness actually is the way to keep your beliefs in check and move to the next level.
wales showed the other day that they belived they could hold and compete with south Africa for 80 minutes, what they now need to though along the way is score some points. to do this they have to be corageous, thats in the context of being brave enough to move outside the blanket of their justified beliefs, and go further with the team putting to gether plays that will create the opportunity for scoring points.

[Gatts]

Of course, why didn't someone tell me earlier...hope you have told Graham Henry maybe its your missing ingredient too Laurie

You must be a consultant of some sort.

Courage boys, I know its winter but leave your blankets in the changing room, go further i.e. into opposition 22 and ...and this is the crucial bit, you must score points

What a load of boll0x

[aucklandlaurie]

Gatts
Dont you ever say i didnt try. sadly you will never understand.....

[Gatts]

Gatts
Dont you ever say i didnt try. sadly you will never understand.....

For which i am eternally grateful.

[Taylorman]

Could see it was wasted some time ago laurie. If anyones tense its probably gatts.

After last weeks match and the upcoming versus Samoa who wouldnt be.

Still think Samoa will take it- just. Wales have far more structure but Samoa will test it severely. Like chalk and cheese those teams. Just think the massive home support will make the difference.

[emack2]

Both Argentina and Boks have had good hit outs today,Boks running in 6 tries.Stressed out NO,they can play did any one doubt it Fiji are lower down the scale than Japan.So what does that tell you NOTHING,forget psychobabble,motivation.For a Bok or Aus team.just beating the All Blacks is enough.Especially in a RWC.
Of course the All Blacks are under pressure,1 win in 6 RWCs,despite being the Best team in the World for so long it hurts.
Pool play means nothing,since the seedings are skewed in favour of the 4 previous Winners.
France always fancy there chances,will we see a strutting giant or the pygmy at lost to Italy.
Realistically France are the only side that can topple a SH side at pool time.
How do you judge teams classed as Tier 2,and what are there expectations
all of them have one good game in them as we have seen.
Japan if they come third in the Group,automatically qualify for 2015,England no matter what as hosts.
Look ing at the groups,NZ, France,Australia,Ireland should all qualify now,Samoa,Argentina,England Scotland COULD qualify.
Scotland v Argentina,Scotlandv England are HUGE games after that any team can win.Injuries have already taken there toll,and the REFS are deciding matches with the penalty counts.
This I predicted pre-RWC the Boks seem the most likely winners under those circumstances.,There may even be merit in fielding a shadow All Blacks side versus France. Just get out of the group the big guns intact including read for the knockout stages.
Its called targetting matches other teams do it,why not the AB`s maybe someone will get lucky and Knock Aus,and the Boks out of it before they meet the AB`s.
IF the AB`s win the RWC fine,if not i`ve been there before,i`ll congratulate the winners and move on.
Confidence is a great thing,with a settled side AB`s to win versus anyone,anytime,anywhere.THAT has`nt happened since 2010,thing about pressure on the players.
Made the Rwc squad now I can relax and play,NO all of a sudden the utility player is favoured over you.
One bad game even before the RWC starts and you sit in the stands for the whole thing.Competion is one thing but now it`s being stretched to thin
get the RWC over.
Clear out the the usual post RWC fall out,get an established side again then get back to being the BEST team in the World again whoever holds the RWC.

[nganboy]

That arrogant/deluded that you think you are going to walk away with it? If so no wonder NZ seems incapable of winning an RWC!

France are more than capable of beating NZ next week and only the surpeme ignorance and arrogance of a NZ fan who can't accept his side is largely hubris until it proves itself at RWC would suggest otherwise...

I think you let yourself get too excited Gatts.
Do you really think the arrogance of the NZ fans limits the ability of the ABs to win a RWC?
Or that the ABs can not be considered a top rugby team because they haven't won a RWC?

[Gatts]

That arrogant/deluded that you think you are going to walk away with it? If so no wonder NZ seems incapable of winning an RWC!

France are more than capable of beating NZ next week and only the surpeme ignorance and arrogance of a NZ fan who can't accept his side is largely hubris until it proves itself at RWC would suggest otherwise...

I think you let yourself get too excited Gatts.
Do you really think the arrogance of the NZ fans limits the ability of the ABs to win a RWC?
Or that the ABs can not be considered a top rugby team because they haven't won a RWC?

Too excited , is that possible, its RWC!

Well pardon me all over the place for being so blasphemous as to question the ABs.

'Top'...'Best' whatever you want to call yourselves, there is a limit i understand that. Only the supremely arrogant would continue to assert that in the face of overwhelming evidence, consistent, clearly systemic failure nganboy.

Point is, you want to be World champions and to date have not achieved that. So how can you call yourself a 'top' side when obviously you crumble when you need to perform. Its not as if you have chosen not to compete at RWC, you go to each one, talk it up and then bang, we are back to ...RWC not worth anyting, not representative, we are the best.

Well, no, actually you aren't when tested, so top and best means Nowt. Diddly. Nada

Problem is that even to suggest that to some NZ fans is considered disrespectful beacuse you are the best, you tell us so, when in fact it is a statement of fact. Some fans will label me a Kiwi hater because i don't buy this best nonsense...and that makes it easy to dismiss the facts that are hard to face.

To continue to bang on about being the Best - whatever that means because it is entirely subjective - while failing to achieve that on an even playing field every 4 years, seems to speak for itself and to fail to acknowledge that suggests a lack of humility, a frisson of arrogance, that some NZ fans just don't understand and, if it is a reflection of your national rugby psyche, could be holding your team back.

Are the ABs the best side in the world. Not yet...no one is...right now it is all up for grabs, equlas all for 6 weeks while 1 team emerges as World champion.

Can ABs achieve that, well they are top/best/great side so of course they can!

I just wish they would bl00dy well get on with it! And one thing is almost certain ...if they win, all those NZ fans will remind us that they are World Champions and i will congratulate them as fans of the best side in the world

Good luck

[Biltong]

Gatts, I see everyone is getting it from you tonight.

Could it be that you are a little tense about your match tomorrow morning?

Just asking.

[Gatts]

Gatts, I see everyone is getting it from you tonight.

Could it be that you are a little tense about your match tomorrow morning?

Just asking.

[Biltong]

[Gatts]

[Taylorman]

To continue to bang on about being the Best - whatever that means because it is entirely subjective - while failing to achieve that on an even playing field every 4 years, seems to speak for itself and to fail to acknowledge that suggests a lack of humility, a frisson of arrogance, that some NZ fans just don't understand and, if it is a reflection of your national rugby psyche, could be holding your team back.

Are the ABs the best side in the world. Not yet...no one is...right now it is all up for grabs, equlas all for 6 weeks while 1 team emerges as World champion.

At the moment SA is the world champion until this one is crowned and NZ are ranked no. 1- both have been that way since SA won it in 2007.
Best is subjective. But it is certainly limited to one of those two no matter what theory you use (that is if you want to be taken seriously) .Personally I think it is SA. The world cup has been created to specifically find the best team, and I'm a bit tired of the no.1 ranking when it doesn't sit next to the trophy so our obvious challenge is to have both. Call it arrogance, but that's our reality. That is the challenge we face.

For me being ranked no.1 and being world champion is the ultimate description of the best team because you can't beat that combination. England did it in 2003 and for me deserved the 'best' description then.

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