Wales Must Drop Jonathan Davies

I am a big fan of Jonathan Davies at regional level. His performances for the Scarlets over the last 2 seasons have been superb and that has led to his caps for Wales. However having watched Davies's performances for Wales it's clear that he's not good enough for this level yet. I think international rugby may have come too soon for him. The centre partnership with Jamie Roberts just isn’t working. People say this is because Roberts and Davies are too similar but is this really the case? Jamie Roberts has very good basic handling skills, he can catch, he can pass and he can draw the man in before he releases the man outside him. Jonathan Davies however cannot do that and has not yet done that for Wales and this was shown yesterday morning by him butchering an brilliant break by Halfpenny, only for Shane swoop up and save JD’s blushes. Shane was lucky he had a good bounce of the ball otherwise there would have been no try. This is not the first time JD has done this. Against England in the Six Nations he made a good break but very nearly messed up with an awful pass to Stoddart which way beyond him and in the end Stoddart did very well to collect the pass and score. Against the South Africans He missed a lot of tackles, knocked the ball on a couple of times and looked like a weak link defence. JD is a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend and yet he is an first choice starter. For the next game I would like to see James Hook or Scott Williams in the centre with Roberts. Hook would be the best choice moving to centre and bringing Halfpenny at Full back who was very good when he came on and his brilliant break led to our try. I just don’t see how much longer we can continue to pick a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend. Please don’t be offended Scarlets fans as I say I do like Davies but in my opinion JD is not yet ready for international rugby. Does anybody else feel the same?

Hi any chance of the odd paragraph being added to make it easier to read please?

Well Hook is out for a few weeks.

I see the backs against Namibia being

9 Mikey
10 Steve Jones
11 Brew
12 Scott Williams
13 Roberts
14 North
15 Byrne

If Byrne doesn't get selected for this one then just what was the point in bringing him. I think they will use this game to rest JD and Priestland. We have to give game time to others without weakening the side too much.

I'm completely baffled by what some Welsh fans see. I'll freely admit Foxy didn't have his best game on Sunday, but nor did a lot of the other Welsh players, it was a pretty rubbish performance all round. All pundits etc all agree that JD needs to be kept in the centre with Roberts. They are our best combination, why people would want to split that up is beyond me.

For Namibia I'd say Roberts needs the rest more than Foxy so if we are going to rest one of them I think it should be him. I'd say it would be better for us to keep some continuity though.

doctornickolas wrote:Well Hook is out for a few weeks.

I see the backs against Namibia being

9 Mikey
10 Steve Jones
11 Brew
12 Scott Williams
13 Roberts
14 North
15 Byrne

If Byrne doesn't get selected for this one then just what was the point in bringing him. I think they will use this game to rest JD and Priestland. We have to give game time to others without weakening the side too much.

Doc,

If Byrne gets the nod at XV then I would give Halfpenny a run and rest North but personally I would give Halfpenny the XV shirt and use Byrne of the bench.

Would also give Knoyle a start.

Does JD play mostly 12 for regional level? For Wales he is shifted to 13.

JD is very strong defendively, I don't think he looked weak against South Africa in that department. He may not be pulling up trees offensively but he's solid and I think that is all that is needed at the moment.

As for my backline against Namibia, I would go

9.Phillips
10.Jones
11.Byrne
12.Scott Williams
13.Davies
14.Brew
15.Halfpenny

I have always said that I think Halfpenny should be at fullback, so the more gametime he has there the better. Roberts, North and Shane deserve a rest, hence why I'd put Byrne on the wing and bring in Scott Williams. Stephen Jones needs some gametime before a bench place for the Fiji game.

I have to admit, he is a totally different player at regional level where he scores tries and makes breaks for fun. Maybe he needs more time at international level to really find form, I personally think hes solid in defence like Andrew Bishop but offers that potential to attack which Bishop didnt.

I wouldnt mind seeing Scott Williams at 12 and Hook at 13 for the namibia game

jd2 is getting through and firing roberts, i think hes been good in defence , would agree about his passing ability to a certain degree, he's one of those players who doesnt use his shoulder movement as he should when passing to the left. he stays straight up and keeps his elbows too close to his body when he wants to release the ball. stats on his performance would be interesting as in one of earlier warm up games the stats surprisingly had him as the most metres made in the team.

This is the 3rd week in a row i find myself defending JD2.......

hes a foil for roberts, the first really well fitting foil we've had for Roberts at international level for years. Priestland is using Roberts very well, and the reason Roberts is looking back to his (lions form) best is because hes running forward at pace more freely than when we had someone else partnerring him (say Hook, defensively he was a liability in the centre, Roberts knew this and didnt go bombarding forward as much).

Defensively they're sound and the wings are seeing the ball (they should be coming in to look for it anyway, especially north coming from the blindside off the 10).

I wasn't sure about halfpenny at full back, but he seemed to do well in the circumstances. Worth giving him another shot against Namibia, if he runs nice attacking lines in that game Id keep him there for the Fiji game.

The backline's working, they just need that decent platform (that all backlines bar Aus/NZ need) to perform.

Maybe I'm one of the only ones (Rugby dreamer aside) to think this and im totally wrong. But i like the centre partnership, and itll keep getting better and better.

JD2's pass for the try was a bit of a "throw it and hope" but we scored the try, won the game. If's and but's do nothing for me.

Londonwelsh wrote:I am a big fan of Jonathan Davies at regional level. His performances for the Scarlets over the last 2 seasons have been superb and that has led to his caps for Wales. However having watched Davies's performances for Wales it's clear that he's not good enough for this level yet. I think international rugby may have come too soon for him. The centre partnership with Jamie Roberts just isn’t working. People say this is because Roberts and Davies are too similar but is this really the case? Jamie Roberts has very good basic handling skills, he can catch, he can pass and he can draw the man in before he releases the man outside him. Jonathan Davies however cannot do that and has not yet done that for Wales and this was shown yesterday morning by him butchering an brilliant break by Halfpenny, only for Shane swoop up and save JD’s blushes. Shane was lucky he had a good bounce of the ball otherwise there would have been no try. This is not the first time JD has done this. Against England in the Six Nations he made a good break but very nearly messed up with an awful pass to Stoddart which way beyond him and in the end Stoddart did very well to collect the pass and score. Against the South Africans He missed a lot of tackles, knocked the ball on a couple of times and looked like a weak link defence. JD is a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend and yet he is an first choice starter. For the next game I would like to see James Hook or Scott Williams in the centre with Roberts. Hook would be the best choice moving to centre and bringing Halfpenny at Full back who was very good when he came on and his brilliant break led to our try. I just don’t see how much longer we can continue to pick a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend. Please don’t be offended Scarlets fans as I say I do like Davies but in my opinion JD is not yet ready for international rugby. Does anybody else feel the same?

Did you actually watch the game?
Do you understand Jon Davies' role for Wales?
Do you understand Jon Davies' role for his region?
Do you understand why Roberts is suddenly playing supberb for Wales, and for such a long time he hasn't been?
I would have thought that no one (let alone Scarlets fans) would be offended by your view, but would just see your inabilty to see what Davies brings to the Welsh side as a bit of light relief to an otherwise dull start to the working week.

Please don't be offended?

He's one of the poorest centres with handling and passing ability I've seen for Wales in a long time. Add kicking to the list as well. Those injuries to Henson and Stoddard have saved JD from getting the chop.

However with the make up of the squad for the WC he can't be forced out now. There's no time for tinkering as it could risk cost us progressing from the group.

I think he's a liability as he consistently makes errors but there no options for Gatland . He needs to be rested from the Namib game but Roberts looks tired from pulling up trees in the last 2 tests. I'd prefer that one of them doesn't play next week but rests until the Fiji match.

Wow. Constantly making errors? I definitely must have been watching a different player then. He's playing in a position he's not over familiar with and he's doing good stuff. OK he's not making loads of breaks but this is a new pragmatic Wales. He is fulfilling his role perfectly and once he's settled he'll make the breaks. For Namibia I'd like to see JD2 at 12 and S Williams at 13

Consistent

Constant


Two different words .

Stellar Key wrote: He's one of the poorest centres with handling and passing ability I've seen for Wales in a long time. Add kicking to the list as well. Those injuries to Henson and Stoddard have saved JD from getting the chop.

However with the make up of the squad for the WC he can't be forced out now. There's no time for tinkering as it could risk cost us progressing from the group.

I think he's a liability as he consistently makes errors but there no options for Gatland . He needs to be rested from the Namib game but Roberts looks tired from pulling up trees in the last 2 tests. I'd prefer that one of them doesn't play next week but rests until the Fiji match.

His short passing game is very good, his positioning is excellent, his defending is impeccable. He is playing very well considering he is a 12 not a 13, and he is playing under orders that is an alien game to him i.e. deeper defensive mode just off the shoulder of Roberts.

By the way........ Hello Steller Key I haven't heard from you before, what region do you support?

Davies is definately not weak defensively - he's one of our strongest centres defensively - with Roberts of course. And watch any Scarlets game and you can see his array of passing, some out of the back of his hand, so to say he can't pass is madness.

I think, while he hasn't played at his best for Wales which is a disappointment, he has a good partnership for Wales, the defence is rock solid and he's improving offensively.

My team against Nambia would be

Knoyle
Jones
Brew
Davies
Scott Williams
North
Halfpenny

with
L Williams
Priestland
Byrne
on the bench.

Also re: Chris 501 I didn't think Byrne had played much at all on the wing and it's a bit of a risk putting an out of form player in an unfamiliar position

And to say he's one of the poorest centres Wales have had is a bit over the top considering some of the players we've had - and as stated above he has a very good short passing game and if he can find his Scarlets form (which is difficult when playing so defensively) he'll show you just how good his passing can be - which is excellent.

And which errors is he constantly making?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:And to say he's one of the poorest centres Wales have had is a bit over the top considering some of the players we've had - and as stated above he has a very good short passing game and if he can find his Scarlets form (which is difficult when playing so defensively) he'll show you just how good his passing can be - which is excellent.

And which errors is he constantly making?

Hes dropped a few passes over the warm-ups/pool games so far. Although most of them have been terrible passes to him which he would have done well to hold on too. his passing has been decent enough so far and he doesnt need to have a kicking game (not saying he doesnt have one) whilst he has any 2 of priestland/hook/Half penny in the team.

Personally I wouldnt currently swap him at 13 for anyone playing at the world cup except the top 3 (Smith/Fourie/BOD).

Would it be a good idea to swap Roberts and Davies round? I think Davies is clearly more effective at 12 and Roberts could still be just as effective at 13, if not more, creating holes for the outside backs to exploit. Wales have a huge and exciting backline, really looks good for the future.

I think most would admit that Roberts has had some of his best games since the Lions, surely it has to be more than coincidence that Davies has been playing alongside him when this has happened.

They seem to compliment each other very well, that said I don't think we are playing off the breaks Roberts makes well enough at the moment.

If it was a choice between Hook and Davies then Davies for me gets the vote, would be good to see Davies and Willimas have a gme this weekend mind.

Well Rory G, first of all did you ever wake up with them bullfrogs on your mind? Sorry - what I meant to say was, yes, why not JD2 at 12 and the Doc at 13? The Doc had a strong game on Sunday and his passing and ,even once, kicking was improved, but he's not a natural distributor.

To me the reason the Doc is playing better is playing better is not because he has JD2 outside him - I can't see that the outside player makes that much difference to his kind of game - but because he doesn't have Stephen Jones inside him. Yes, I do remember the Lions, but then he was genuinely interchanging with BoD, which he is not doing now.

samuraidragon wrote:Well Rory G, first of all did you ever wake up with them bullfrogs on your mind? Sorry - what I meant to say was, yes, why not JD2 at 12 and the Doc at 13? The Doc had a strong game on Sunday and his passing and ,even once, kicking was improved, but he's not a natural distributor.

To me the reason the Doc is playing better is playing better is not because he has JD2 outside him - I can't see that the outside player makes that much difference to his kind of game - but because he doesn't have Stephen Jones inside him. Yes, I do remember the Lions, but then he was genuinely interchanging with BoD, which he is not doing now.

You have good taste in music my friend

Does Roberts have a good offloading game? He is absolutely fantastic at breaking the gain line, if he had the offloading skills to offload it to the likes of North/Halfpenny/Williams, I have to say I would be very afraid as the defending team.

With Davies inside him as a better distributor and himself being great at breaking defences, I think this easy switch could potentially solve the problem with the centres and create massive problems for the opposition.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Well Rory G, first of all did you ever wake up with them bullfrogs on your mind? Sorry - what I meant to say was, yes, why not JD2 at 12 and the Doc at 13? The Doc had a strong game on Sunday and his passing and ,even once, kicking was improved, but he's not a natural distributor.

To me the reason the Doc is playing better is playing better is not because he has JD2 outside him - I can't see that the outside player makes that much difference to his kind of game - but because he doesn't have Stephen Jones inside him. Yes, I do remember the Lions, but then he was genuinely interchanging with BoD, which he is not doing now.

You have good taste in music my friend

Does Roberts have a good offloading game? He is absolutely fantastic at breaking the gain line, if he had the offloading skills to offload it to the likes of North/Halfpenny/Williams, I have to say I would be very afraid as the defending team.

With Davies inside him as a better distributor and himself being great at breaking defences, I think this easy switch could potentially solve the problem with the centres and create massive problems for the opposition.

I really dont think they need to switch. JD2 seems to be being moulded into an outside centre rather than the 12 he plays for the scarlets more often than not.

He has gas, he can bosh it up and his arcing runs on the outside shoulder of defenders are always a joy to watch. He's defensively excellant and he always hear in rugby, its all about cominbation.

p.s samurai, Stephen Jones is notably one of the best distributing 10s in the Northern Hemisphere, if Roberts couldnt run off of him Id be very worried about the intelligence of a man who's a Doctor.

To me its all to do with trusting his partner in the midfield to cover for him, which JD2 does inexplicably well at.

Maybe we're all seeing things just in slightly different contexts.

Samurai

Great minds!!........ Rory great guitarist and one of the truely awesome blues musicians.

Anyway we can't think that alike, because if your rationale is that Roberts is playing well because he doesn't have Jones inside him then how do you explain how he was so good during the Lions series?.

Ahhh I know it was because BOD was outside him and nothing to do with Jones who was playing 10. Its so transparent your view of Jones, but on this occasion you fall on your own sword.

Funny how Roberts has played excellent during the last 3-4 years with the following 13 / 10 outside / inside him

Wales (and Cardiff) - Shanklin/Jones
Lions - BOD - BOD/Jones
Baa Baas - Fourie
Wales (NZ tour 2nd Test) - Davies/Biggar (then even more so when Jones came on)
Blues - Lualala
Wales - Davies/Priestland

And funny during this period the only time he has been poor is

Wales - Hook/Jones
and the recent warm up game 2nd half against England, and against Argentina

Seems to be a common denominator here, and somehow I don't think its Jones

Oh just to end ........... Davies has been pretty awesome at regional level with both Priestland and Jones at 10, just look at some of the attacking play last season for the Scarlets

I'm willing to accept that Roberts is playing better in defence coz of the presence of JD2 etc. outside him. But in running lines I don't see it, as he so rarely ships it on anyway. What I reckon may be part of the reason - and I emphasize part, coz I'm not sure - is that he was getting the ball that little bit late from the Phillips/Jones axis, which gave the opposition loosies that little bit more time to line him up.

It could be also that the coaches have understood that the straight running line was going nowhere, so have encouraged him to find angles.

To be frank, I didn't think he was so much better against the Boks, but he was very good against the Samoans, coming from deeper with more of a cutting angle.

[i][quote="Smirnoffpriest"]And to say he's one of the poorest centres Wales have had is a bit over the top considering some of the players we've had - and as stated above he has a very good short passing game and if he can find his Scarlets form (which is difficult when playing so defensively) he'll show you just how good his passing can be - which is excellent.

And which errors is he constantly making?[/quote][/i]

Consistently

As I commented earlier his passing and catching passes or catching kicks or line kicking or support play. Fans of his are happy well so what . Thats not going to do Wales any good.

Davies can improve if he cuts down on errors by improving his skills, good that he's got a quieter 10 days now for training . Maybe after in the next match he will have the confidence to show scarlets form. As I said He's not under pressure for his place as there is no alternative.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Does JD play mostly 12 for regional level? For Wales he is shifted to 13.

No JD is an outside center, Scott Williams is the inside center.
Jamie Roberts is normally a crash ball inside center I think.

samuraidragon wrote:I'm willing to accept that Roberts is playing better in defence coz of the presence of JD2 etc. outside him. But in running lines I don't see it, as he so rarely ships it on anyway. What I reckon may be part of the reason - and I emphasize part, coz I'm not sure - is that he was getting the ball that little bit late from the Phillips/Jones axis, which gave the opposition loosies that little bit more time to line him up.

It could be also that the coaches have understood that the straight running line was going nowhere, so have encouraged him to find angles.

To be frank, I didn't think he was so much better against the Boks, but he was very good against the Samoans, coming from deeper with more of a cutting angle.

Agree 100% mate
13 not 12
Roberts is not a passing centre, and Jon Davies is not a Roy Bergiers silky ouside centre who compliments Roberts bosh.

Fast distribution v Gatlands approach
You need quick ball from the scrum and as much as Phillips is playing much better at the mo, you will not get running play from two-step spikey.
Gatland likes Phillips to act like a flanker from the scrum, taking players out then offloading, unfortunately the outside centre will rarely get service that way.

Change it around
Perhaps for the Namibia game, you can look at the following (lets not talk about the flyhalf role )

9 Knolye
10 Andy Powell
12 Davies
13 Williams (rest Roberts to bench)

with a view to some running rugby using Davies as he is operates for his region, and giving Scott Williams some game time.

AlynDavies wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Does JD play mostly 12 for regional level? For Wales he is shifted to 13.

No JD is an outside center, Scott Williams is the inside center.
Jamie Roberts is normally a crash ball inside center I think.

Alyn
I think (might be wrong) but they are both 12 for the Scarlets

JD has played all his rugby for the Scarlets at 12 with Regan King at 13. Scott Williams has only played a few times for the Scarlets, he also is a 12.

He is clearly playing a game that is alien to him at present, but he and Roberts look good together. It may be an optiuon to swap them around occasionally.

I'm sorry but IMO his passing is quite good - yes he's knocked on a few times but that hardly counts as constant/consistent errors, how many kicks has he caught? Because from what I remember AWJ, North & Hook with Priestland fielded most of the kicks in the last 2 games.

I agree he can improve but, I say again, to say he's one of the poorest centres is just ridiculous.

And I quite like the idea of that backline FHF (with the obvious exception), I may have played Hook at 10 if he was fit, but can understand wanting to give Priestland more experience, and then bring Jones on after 50 mins for some gametime. Hopefully Jenks and A Jones are fit enough to play at least 60 mins and get their fitness back.

Shame about Hook but hopefully Halfpenny will kick on in the FB role - then for the 6 Nations we'll have lots of strength and depth in the back 3 - North, Halfpenny, Stoddart, Byrne, Brew, Priestland, Hook, Dan Fish, Harries.

really not the time to question them, roberts and jd are just starting to find form togethe rand in defence they are superb, also jd was there supporting halfpenny and while the pass wasnt the best we STILL scored so no point mentioning it.

I must have watched a different match I thought JD2 was very poor, did he kick the ball straight out on the full 15 m from our line near the end of the game, did he almost butcher a try, he made made 2 tackles all game (one was chasing an up and under), throw a wild pass in mid field again luckily bounced to one of our support players, he did very little work compared to every other player. In the second half the ball was coming across the Samoan line (playing and advantage) he decides to leave the line and move towards the full back position leaving Roberts and North exposed with a 3 on 2, luckily again North/Roberts did the donkey work.

JD2 best position may be on the wing where he seemed to spend much of his time but we have much better wings.

Sorry to disagree, JD2 has a lot of potential but needs to work hard on his skills, mainly passing! Oldly enough I remember the Brian Moore challenge and JD2 scored a nil, I know some will say it was a game and should not matter but it is a basic skill that is lacking during games!

glamorganalun wrote:I must have watched a different match I thought JD2 was very poor, did he kick the ball straight out on the full 15 m from our line near the end of the game, did he almost butcher a try, he made made 2 tackles all game (one was chasing an up and under), throw a wild pass in mid field again luckily bounced to one of our support players, he did very little work compared to every other player. In the second half the ball was coming across the Samoan line (playing and advantage) he decides to leave the line and move towards the full back position leaving Roberts and North exposed with a 3 on 2, luckily again North/Roberts did the donkey work.

.Sorry to disagree, JD2 has a lot of potential but needs to work hard on his skills, mainly passing! Oldly enough I remember the Brian Moore challenge and JD2 scored a nil, I know some will say it was a game and should not matter but it is a basic skill that is lacking during games!

At last someone talking sense! JD has a huge amount of potential and will in time become a world class player. Whether people agree or not the fact remains that JD has not yet brought his regional form onto the international scene yet. He's shown glimpses of what he can do with the odd line break but his handling and passing is poor. He's not that good in defence either. Last week against the South Africans he had a decent game but kept rushing up out of the line too much and left the rest of the defence exposed. He also missed a number of first up tackles and knocked the ball on more than once. JD has an awful lot to learn before he becomes a world class centre.

Also I found the Welsh fans player ratings interesting this week. Andy Powell was the lowest but have a look at JD's rating. Not great is it ?
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/09/19/wales-v-samoa-your-ratings-and-man-of-the-match-91466-29449785/

Wow...he's not ready for international rugby, but you think Scott Williams is?

He's the best option we have. Unfortunately, he's not being used as effectively as he is at the Scarlets. He does bring defensive solidity (no missed tackles led to breaks) as he is a great tackler, he will guarantee to get over the gainline. He also does have good hands.

Let's address the two points in question. Against England, it was a slightly delayed pass, and slightly overran by Stoddart. This combined to make it look worse if you put the blame on one player (which you are). Against Samoa, Halfpenny, again, was as much at fault. After a brilliant break, he wanted the ball back as he would back his pace, naturally. However, JD2 could see that he needed to draw the man (as he was drifting over the 1/2P due to cover coming for JD2), and so needed to hold it longer to do this. The low sun (which in the first half caused AWJ to completely miss a lineout ball, hitting him in the face) and the fact that he wanted it earlier combined to mean the ball didn't go to hand.

Really, he is a whipping boy because, I think, people just want to see people like Hook in the team, who look prettier, over someone more effective. Aware that Hook probably won't play 15 again this torunament, they're now looking at the centres. Of course, he is much better at 12/13 than 15, and I would quite like to see him play there as well, but not at the expense of JD2, who has played very well so far, especially against SA in the second half, getting us up the field at important times when Steyn was hoofing us back to our try line.

If Priestland gets much more and quicker ball (either from Tavis or Ll Williams), then, three, four, five phases in, he will put JD2 away off his shoulder, as that is what's he good at, and Priestland is good at sending players off his shoulders after an initial mini break. We saw how, in the first 20 against Samoa, Wales tried to move it wide after the first two phases, and it worked well, and they only stopped because they got nervous when the tries didn't come. We'll see against Fiji and Namibia if he's worth his place in the team.

Miaow:

The sun had nothing to do with the ball hitting the ground behind 1/2 penny on the floor, yes he was drawing the man but his passing is lacking. My coments were more about posters saying he was good in defence, making two tackles and falling out of the line does not mean he was good in defence and I was not impressed against SA he is easily beaten and he can't turn, he is like the the QE2.


His lack of involvement is not helped by Roberts charges and it may be better to share the charges with JD2 or is his catching any good?

No, the sun definitely affected Halfpenny not timing his run correctly; alright, fair enough, he was expecting the ball earlier, and was therefore further forward than JD2 wanted him to be, but still, looking across with the sun in his eyes, he couldn't see that there was an extra defender coming across and therefore the last man needed to be taken out before the pass was released.

If anything, the missed pass is as much Halfpenny's fault as it was Jon Davies'.

They're different players. I think Roberts works well on the crash, and think mixing it up by putting North onto that ball works better than JD2 would. I'd rather have JD2 out wide in broken field, where he can use his pace, strength and acceleration to get on the end of half breaks. That's his main strength, and unfortunately, Wales haven't played it wide enough or quick enough to utilise his skills well. It might not matter, as they're playing really well and catering to Roberts, but I'd still like to see a faster wide game, especially because we didn't look like scoring against Samoa but for the rather fortuitous try in question.

That's the far bigger issue; why we can't score tries like SA and Samoa, bashing it up through the forwards from the 22, even when we're not playing well. We don't run with the pace or conviction up front to do that, and often turn it over. So we need to look at playing a game that comes easier, but only when it's on; we tried to in the first 20 against Samoa, and it nearly came off. I hope that we learn how to put them away, and get more confidence, in the next two games before the (potential) QF with Ireland, because I believe we can beat them if we learn how to score tries without really labouring over it. Perhaps Hook will be needed for that, perhaps not. As I said, give JD2 these two games to prove his worth, and fit into the international game (it's only really been six months since he's been a starter, so it's no suprise he's looking a little raw from the step up in some areas). Anyway, he's playing well enough to keep his place, and as I have said, there are much more pressing concerns for Wales than selection.

A few stats:

Against SA only Williams made more metres with ball in hand. He made more clean breaks than anyone else (2), no other back made any clean breaks, Feletau was the only other player. He beat more defenders than any other player (4), no other back managed more than 1 beaten defender.

Against Samoa only Williams beat more defenders, Davies beat 3. One of the best tackle rates in the backs, 4 made, none missed.

I think that sums up my earlier point about people wanting to have prettier (Hook) players over those who are more effective.

miaow:

I agree with much of what you say but I have watched JD2 with excitement over the last 18 months because of his potential but he looks half the player for Wales but, I believe it is fixable but he did very little work in the Samoa game, I suspect he was looking after himself and moving away from the defensive action. I must admin I be tempted to stick North at 13 and Shane and 1/2 penny on the wings and Bryne must be FB if we are going further in the competition than the QF (if we get there). Before the warm up games, I gave us no chance to get to the QF's because of rubbish tactics and bad team selection, although we still have these problems (proven by the last performance) there seems to be a team spirit developing getting us through.

You say he did very little work, and yet you seem to have totally ignored the stat above that suggests otherwise. Again, he's one of these players who looks like he's forever going to be underrated by Welsh fans, whilst other countries realise the player he really is.

Interesting comments on this forum.
1/2p states that he had a good pass from Davies, that the sun was in his eyes when he run (too close to Davies), Davies was the only one following him and he crossed over .................

I feel Davies had deja vu when he selfishly run the last time and he was crucified for it, he panicked instead of trusting his speed, and almost mucked it up. He was looking around instead of putting his foot down

miaow wrote:You say he did very little work, and yet you seem to have totally ignored the stat above that suggests otherwise. Again, he's one of these players who looks like he's forever going to be underrated by Welsh fans, whilst other countries realise the player he really is.

What stats are available miaow?, apart from the ones LondonWelsh is trying to palm off

hawalsh wrote:A few stats:

Against SA only Williams made more metres with ball in hand. He made more clean breaks than anyone else (2), no other back made any clean breaks, Feletau was the only other player. He beat more defenders than any other player (4), no other back managed more than 1 beaten defender.

Against Samoa only Williams beat more defenders, Davies beat 3. One of the best tackle rates in the backs, 4 made, none missed.

There you go flyhalf.

miaow

So these stats seem to contradict LondonWelsh's (stats & view) & GlamorganAlun's view and certainly closer to how I saw the match as well. I also go along with your view that some posters would rather select a "Hensonite" headlining "individual" type of player rather than a "ugly" but truely effective team player.

Most posters look at his regional form and easily hit on he can't transfer this to a higher level but its not "apples for apples". Nigel Davies plays JD as an attacking 12 where Gatland selects him as a defensive 13 so he'll never have the opportunities in "red" of Wales as he does in the "red" of The Scarlets.

So posters have a choice either accept what Davies is playing under orders and understand what he brings to Roberts specifically and the Welsh team generally, or push for Hook at O/C and see the midfield partnership fall apart.

I agree with Alun here tho, I would push Davies to 12 and bring Williams in at 13 for the next game to see what a more "running" midfield can do.

15 1/2p
14 Brew
11 Williams

13 Williams
12 Davies

10 Jones
9 Knoyle

Now that is a pacey, attack minded backline

I think, from a Scarlets perspective, if the two were to line up alongside on another, I'd have JD2 at 13. Williams' distribution skills are better, he offloads more, and he bumps off tackles very well indeed, keeping the ball alive. He also has the kicking game that JD2 lacks.

JD2 is best at 13 in my opinion, although really, the shirt numbers matter very little in the circumstance in which he excels; several phases in, with mismatches in the midfield, and bombing up alongside the shoulder of a Priestland or Williams or King (), and using his pace that way. Look at his tries over the last two seasons. Almost all of them occur this way.

But, as you say, he is playing in a team of very talented players, and it's more important on the international stage that the foundations come first, which is sometimes lacking at PYS. I would actually like to see Hook in midfield, alongside JD2, not bothered in which shirt. I don't think too many changes should be made, I wouldn't start Scott as I don't think there's any need, and other positions need changing more pressingly than the midfield.

My team would be:

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Lloyd Burns/Huw Bennett
3. Craig Mitchell

Whole new front row. Give Adam a rest, he seemed to be struggling fitness wise, no point in him grinding himself against an abrasive Namibian side. I'd be tempted to maybe stick with Bennett though, keep continuity in the set piece (lineout especially), though want to see more of Burns.

4. Bradley Davies
5. AWJ

Self explanatory really. Maybe have Charteris instead of AWJ, again, for the lineout continuity, but they've both worked hard. Davies needs a big game and a chance to show what he can do.

6. Ryan Jones
7. Warburton
8. Faletau

Keep the captain in place, and Faletau. Ryan Jones slots in, maybe start with Powell and bring the blonde one off around 60, I don't feel confident with him as an 'impact' sub, as the impact can just as easily be negative as positive.

9. Tavis Knoyle
10. SJ

Important for me that Tavis starts, and Lloyd Williams gets game time. Samoan game was crying out for Tavis' quicker passing and more attacking style of play before we got what was a bit of a lucky try. Gets his opportunity in a game that we will destroy Namibia in if we play it quickly enough and wide enough. SJ, obvious, needs his chance like Bradley, has slipped up through injury, and this is a good chance for him to show how he can be involved in both the new, disciplined Wales, and also an attacking, free flowing midfield (as if he needed to prove it again...).

12. Hook
13. JD2

Explained it above, just think, as Hook will not be playing 15 again in all likelihood, this is his opportunity to show he deserves a bench spot ahead of Scott Williams.

11. Shane
14. Brew
15. Halfpenny

The boot of Halfpenny, and a chance for him to state a claim to 15. Byrne will be needed off the bench though, for at least 15 minutes, to give him a chance too. Brew replaces North in what is a backline with not too many big ball carriers. Shane impressed me against Samoa, I didn't think he should start, I do now. Defence will need to be solid though, cannot shirk tackles. Opportunity for him to get to Campese's record (he's seven away). It's not unthinkable for him to get a hat trick, and he may get one against Fiji...




I've kept the forwards largely the same, as I think they will matter more than the backs in winning the game, moreso than usual against Namibia. Whoever we put in the backline could cut the Namibians to shreds with ball in hand. It's defensively we may struggle. I'm perhaps being a little optimistic with some of the changes, who knows. If the starting XV is more about continuity than my team, I would like to see better and earlier use of the bench, especially regarding hooker and scrum half.

Hook is injured mate

Haha, yeah, I've had a bit of a shocker there!

Scott Williams is the only option then, as Roberts needs a rest.

Thats a good side, only issues I have got (and would change to start)

3. A Jones , does he need more game time?.......he looked half fit, is it a case of match fitness?, you need him fit and on form

5. Charteris, again I would play him for first half. AWJ for 2nd half.

8. Powell ........ I think Faletau is only 20, and they have been two really hard games. You need WBP and Powell can get you tries.

12 JD
13 SW.............. just positional change with these two, you can always play them L/R instead of I/C and O/C

Bench
Mitchell - would use full 2nd half
Owen - come on 60 min
AWJ - come on 50 min
Faletau - do not use unless req'd
Phillips cover 12/13 as well as 9 - do not use unless req'd
Priestland - do not use unless req'd
Byrne - come on 50 min

cheers mate!!