Wales Must Drop Jonathan Davies

First topic message reminder :

I am a big fan of Jonathan Davies at regional level. His performances for the Scarlets over the last 2 seasons have been superb and that has led to his caps for Wales. However having watched Davies's performances for Wales it's clear that he's not good enough for this level yet. I think international rugby may have come too soon for him. The centre partnership with Jamie Roberts just isn’t working. People say this is because Roberts and Davies are too similar but is this really the case? Jamie Roberts has very good basic handling skills, he can catch, he can pass and he can draw the man in before he releases the man outside him. Jonathan Davies however cannot do that and has not yet done that for Wales and this was shown yesterday morning by him butchering an brilliant break by Halfpenny, only for Shane swoop up and save JD’s blushes. Shane was lucky he had a good bounce of the ball otherwise there would have been no try. This is not the first time JD has done this. Against England in the Six Nations he made a good break but very nearly messed up with an awful pass to Stoddart which way beyond him and in the end Stoddart did very well to collect the pass and score. Against the South Africans He missed a lot of tackles, knocked the ball on a couple of times and looked like a weak link defence. JD is a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend and yet he is an first choice starter. For the next game I would like to see James Hook or Scott Williams in the centre with Roberts. Hook would be the best choice moving to centre and bringing Halfpenny at Full back who was very good when he came on and his brilliant break led to our try. I just don’t see how much longer we can continue to pick a player who can’t pass, can’t catch and can’t defend. Please don’t be offended Scarlets fans as I say I do like Davies but in my opinion JD is not yet ready for international rugby. Does anybody else feel the same?

I'd have Adam Jones come off the bench maybe, but I wouldn't start him. I expect he will start though, and will see 50/60 minutes. I'm not sure if it is a stamina thing though; he literally dawdles back into the defensive line as if he's really struggling for breath, but then ten seconds later, he'll be rucking again. And this was happening in the first twenty of the SA game (thought most notable just before Hougaard's try), so it's a fitness issue rather than stamina, as he lasted the full 80 in both games. Not so sure why he struggled in the scrums so much against Samoa though; again, perhaps fitness, lacking the energy.

Agree regarding Charteris, and to an extent resting Faletau, but if that's the case, I'd rather see Ryan 8 and Powell 6. Can't say Powell gets tries though; he got lucky against Argentina, can't remember the last one he scored before that though. Put a good effort in though against Samoa, and perhaps deserves game time because of that.

Who's Owen? Is that Ken Owens? I'm having a really dulll, 4 o clock in the morning moment, and can only picture former captain Michael Owen...is there another? If it's Ken, he'll be lucky to see any gametime unfortunately, and wouldn't deserve to either. He's been injured, there's no point giving him twenty minutes that would be better used to get Burns up to pace if he is the one coming off the bench. I think Owens will be the Gethin Jenkins of the next ten years, but just not this WC unfortunately due to injury.

It's a difficult one though. Really don't know how much of a test the Namibians will pose. Can't see any point in having Philllips on the bench, but you never know if, come 60 minutes, it's still a real contest, and we might need him defensively.

flyhalffactory wrote:

miaow wrote:You say he did very little work, and yet you seem to have totally ignored the stat above that suggests otherwise. Again, he's one of these players who looks like he's forever going to be underrated by Welsh fans, whilst other countries realise the player he really is.

What stats are available miaow?, apart from the ones LondonWelsh is trying to palm off

Did I mention any stats flyhalffactory ? Dont think I did. I just said what I saw of Davies in the previous games. The only poster who mentioned any stats was hawalsh of which we have no proof of these stats just his word. Can we see them please ? Even if these stats show his high tackle rate it does not alter the fact that JD's offloading and distribution skills are not quite there yet.

Completely disagree with dropping Jon Davies, a great player. If anything I would give him more time with Roberts at 12 to improve their partnership

I would start with the same backline bar injured Hook for the game against Namibia. With Knoyle, Stephen Jones and Scott Williams on the bench to come on.

miaow wrote:You say he did very little work, and yet you seem to have totally ignored the stat above that suggests otherwise. Again, he's one of these players who looks like he's forever going to be underrated by Welsh fans, whilst other countries realise the player he really is.

The stats quoted was for the SA game I was talking about the Samoa game. All the posters are saying he has great potential but pointing out major flaws that some Scarlet fans can see.

In his defense, Halfpenny said dropped the pass because the low sun was right in his eyes.

Londonwelsh, the stats are from the ESPNScrum website, which match those from the Telegraph site.

glamorganalun, I gave the standout stats for both games. He had a better game against the Boks than Samoa (the standout attacker in the backs), but then so did everyone else.

FHF Looks good though I don't think Powell will get us tries - fair enough he appears in good locations for the final pass - but it's generally others who make the breaks and create the tries (I know that try against England but that was quite lucky the way the ball popped out of the ruck).

Otherwise team I would choose with the possible exception of taking Phillips off the bench and putting on L Williams as I think he needs gametime and coming off the bench when the Nambians tire will increase our tempo or at least keep giving us fast ball.

maestegmafia wrote:Completely disagree with dropping Jon Davies, a great player. If anything I would give him more time with Roberts at 12 to improve their partnership

I would start with the same backline bar injured Hook for the game against Namibia. With Knoyle, Stephen Jones and Scott Williams on the bench to come on.

Qulaification in this group could still come down to points difference, so I agree with you that we should keep the same XV as far as possible and look to rack up the points.

Jonathan Davies is a quality player and should not be dropped.

we must stick with jd2 and roberts. i think the posters and fans who are trying to get rid of jd2 are subversively campaigning to get their man hook in the centre as they now realise he's lost any chance at 10

"Campaigning?" I'm assuming Gatland doesn't take his views from the internet. I hope to god he doesn't anyway.

I'm perfectly OK with JD2 at centre. Not the finished article, but our best option.

For me Hook is a 10, not a centre. I'm bewildered that you think "he's lost any chance" there. Priestland did a job, but it's not as if he blew the doors off like.... well, like Hook did against Oz in 07, against England in 08 and 09 etc.

a while ago in his career he was the latest thing at 10, but players are coming thru in all positions and unless he gets a chance in perpignan at 10, to try and master the full set of skills in that position, i think hook could well be our bench man from now on.

as for 'campaigning' you know what i mean , look at the way the welsh press have repeatedly knocked sjones and say 'if hook was playing.....'
not any shouting from those quarters now, theyve gone quiet .

I haven't gone quiet. I'm still knocking Stephen Jones. But if he gives us a MoM performance against strong opposition, I'll be the first to congratulate him. But it's been a long time since he's done that. Meanwhile Hook has been our best 10 this year. Fact.

I'd say Priestland has been far better than Hook at 10 - though of course I can't say it's a fact. I feel though he has only played 4 games he's got the backline moving very well, has run it when it's on, distributed when it's not on, hasn't run down any blind alleys and his tactical kicking has been good. Hook has played well against Ireland, the half he played in the warm ups and played a decent half against Scotland (but of course everyone only remembers the try), that amounts to about 2 games in a year he's played well at 10, with 1 shocker against France.

how is hook the best 10 this year? not even played at club level as priestland has, hook supporters have to put their bias aside and support whats best for the welsh team

I should add I'm talking about international games. Also , I'm not knocking Priestland. He's has got excellent tactical kicking and has moved up to the international level very well so far. But I thought in the friendly vs. England in Cardiff, against exactly the same opposition, Hook was a class above. The next game vs. Argentina too Hook was solid and unflashy. That's why I'm puzzled to see a previous poster say that Hook's fly half days were over. That makes no sense.

I saw things the otherway around Samurai as I thought Priestland was much better in the Warm Ups, though Hook did impress me very much, and had much improved tackling, defence and tactical game in the WU's than previously.
I do agree that there's no way you could say his fly half days are over. But I do think he will struggle for game time, and unfortunately may be moved all over the shop even more as a result. I hope he can get the 10 shirt in France on a regular basis and improve his skill base, but it isn't guarenteed.

I do think he's been playing well in the last few games, just that he isn't and never has been a FB, and IMO Priestland has been playing better than him.

It's not really for Hook to refuse to play at 15, if that's what the coaches think is the best option, but it beats me how they come to the view that it is.

It looks as though Gatland is going to go with Priestland as first choice 10 in this WC, and I can see why he would, the guy is a thinking player. He has had a couple of indecisive moments, but by and large he's been very composed.

Hook is a real enigma - he's got to be around the team somewhere, but perhaps on the bench at the present.

BlueNote wrote:Hook is a real enigma - he's got to be around the team somewhere, .

Not to take your quote out of context, but I think that thinking throughout Welsh rugby, fans, pundits, coaches, is the problem as it 1. doesn't let Hook settle in any 1 position, 2. doesn't choose the best players or partnerships in the teams as you're trying to shoe horn in Hook into any team regardless, 3. Excludes players and doesn't develop proper cover for players (such as when Byrne lost form, or dropping Biggar without giving time to develop) 4. Doesn't allow Hook to develop a proper, rounded skill set as say a 10 or say a centre, as he's moved from pillar to post every other game and expected to display totally different skills.

It should work that people accept Hooks more mecurial skills but then look objectively at each position/combination and choose the best players in each position if Hooks not in the team at the end of it then fine. BUT if he is the best (say) 10, then choose him at 10 regardless of if you haven't someone to step in at 15, you then develop/give game time to some one like Stoddart, Tovey, Prydie or Harries.

Apologies for the rant

That I agree with totally.

I just wish Gatland/Ospreys management could have seen it. You've got to commend Hook - he states that 10 is where he wants to be playing but plays wherever they select him (as would be expected) but without complaint or the slightest hesitation even when it's to the detriment of his game.

I agree with Smirnoff, its so backwards to include Hook "anywhere" just because of potential game changing spark, instead of allowing better partnerships, and players to develop in their positions.

IronMike wrote:I agree with Smirnoff, its so backwards to include Hook "anywhere" just because of potential game changing spark, instead of allowing better partnerships, and players to develop in their positions.

Maybe Hook could play 6 now lydiates out for a bit?

Hes more of a 2nd row

With Hook out of the equation, maybe Scott Williams should have a run out from the bench, hopefully Wales win be out of sight by half time and he can play the second half in place of Roberts as JD2 hs hardly put himself about in the last game, he could do with passing and catching practice.

samuraidragon wrote:I haven't gone quiet. I'm still knocking Stephen Jones. But if he gives us a MoM performance against strong opposition, I'll be the first to congratulate him. But it's been a long time since he's done that. Meanwhile Hook has been our best 10 this year. Fact.

If its fact explain

IMHO
25 mins against a sleeping Scotland side, then 40 mins of progressively dire play, until Jones came on
80 mins of perhaps the worst performance by a 10 for god knows how many years against France
Doesnt make him your best 10 this year

Biggar
Tovey
Jones
Priestland
Robinson
Fish

have all played better

flyhalffactory wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:I haven't gone quiet. I'm still knocking Stephen Jones. But if he gives us a MoM performance against strong opposition, I'll be the first to congratulate him. But it's been a long time since he's done that. Meanwhile Hook has been our best 10 this year. Fact.

If its fact explain

IMHO
25 mins against a sleeping Scotland side, then 40 mins of progressively dire play, until Jones came on
80 mins of perhaps the worst performance by a 10 for god knows how many years against France
Doesnt make him your best 10 this year

Biggar
Tovey
Jones
Priestland
Robinson
Fishhave all played better

Are you referring to Dan Fish from the Blues ? If so it's a strange choice as he's a full back and has never played at 10 for the Blues so I fail to see how he could be better than Hook.

Londonwelsh wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:I haven't gone quiet. I'm still knocking Stephen Jones. But if he gives us a MoM performance against strong opposition, I'll be the first to congratulate him. But it's been a long time since he's done that. Meanwhile Hook has been our best 10 this year. Fact.

If its fact explain

IMHO
25 mins against a sleeping Scotland side, then 40 mins of progressively dire play, until Jones came on
80 mins of perhaps the worst performance by a 10 for god knows how many years against France
Doesnt make him your best 10 this year

Biggar
Tovey
Jones
Priestland
Robinson
Fishhave all played better

Are you referring to Dan Fish from the Blues ? If so it's a strange choice as he's a full back and has never played at 10 for the Blues so I fail to see how he could be better than Hook.

Thats me been tired should have been "Fact"................ bit like Samurais "Fact"

FHF - are you some sort of middle-management area sales monkey?

You are using more and more words - while actually saying less and less!!!

I think FHF is the Scarlets defence lawyer, he tries to prove black is white in their case and anyone else is a headless chicken.

I disagree with this article,
In the Samoa game JD made 4 tackles an missed non.
Beat 3 defenders and made 1 off load.

in the South Africa game
JD made 2 clean breaks beat 4 defenders won 2 turn overs and made 1 tackle and missed 1 tackle.

Bear in mind he had zero space to work in both games,
he can catch and he can offload and pass,
yes he made a bad pass in the Samoa game but i thought that was more to do with decision making,he seemed to hesitate which is only natural for a young lad with a hand full of caps.

Also Gatland has him at 13 and i don't think he is a 13

glamorganalun wrote:I think FHF is the Scarlets defence lawyer, he tries to prove black is white in their case and anyone else is a headless chicken.

always happy to hear a counter argument

No one liners children

Hook is has been our best 10 this year "FACT"
is not categoric evidence

MrFahrenheit wrote:FHF - are you some sort of middle-management area sales monkey?

You are using more and more words - while actually saying less and less!!!

Mr F

I am an Economist and Accountant by trade

I use stats, facts and figures

I wouldn't employ or retain anyone who would use bland statements to prove a point

Thats me out of a job then

I have to agree with FHF here, as I don't think Hook has been particularly brilliant at 10 this year. In fact, I don't think he's been that brilliant in any position. The thing we get with Hook is a moment of individual brilliance that just breaks a defense open. It's not enough to include him at the expense of some very good players currently in the squad.

Furthermore, I currently rate JD2. I think he's playing as he's told, freeing up Roberts and generally being a very solid workhorse. His mis-pass to 1/2p was not really his fault - if you watch it again, JD2 changes his line to draw in a tackler, and because of the sun, 1/2p runs too far forward.

FHF - "I am an Economist and Accountant by trade..."

Explains a lot. I guess watching Stephen Jones play provides more than enough of an adrenalin rush after the 9 to 5???

(You're not Fred Goodwin are you!?)

If we had a proven alternative centre combination, there might be a case. But as it stands, the most likely way of improving the Wales back line is going to be to give Roberts and JD2 more time together.

A game against Namibia might give them the opportunity to practice what to do when given a bit of space!

flyhalffactory wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:I haven't gone quiet. I'm still knocking Stephen Jones. But if he gives us a MoM performance against strong opposition, I'll be the first to congratulate him. But it's been a long time since he's done that. Meanwhile Hook has been our best 10 this year. Fact.

If its fact explain

IMHO
25 mins against a sleeping Scotland side, then 40 mins of progressively dire play, until Jones came on
80 mins of perhaps the worst performance by a 10 for god knows how many years against France
Doesnt make him your best 10 this year

Biggar
Tovey
Jones
Priestland
Robinson
Fish

have all played better

To be fair, that game against France we were constantly on the back foot after being smashed up front, the same thing happened to England vs Ireland. Dan Carter couldn't have done much with that ball.

MrFahrenheit wrote:FHF - "I am an Economist and Accountant by trade..."

Explains a lot. I guess watching Stephen Jones play provides more than enough of an adrenalin rush after the 9 to 5???

(You're not Fred Goodwin are you!?)

hahahaha you dont know how close you are in that trick Mr F

Cymroglan wrote:Thats me out of a job then

Banter

To be fair, FHF is absolutely right about Hook being nowhere near the best 10. I'd say Priestland was the best 10 in Wales last season, SJ and Tovey suffered with injury, the latter whose ankle injury seemed to effect his game for ages afterwards, especially with kicking. Tovey finished the season very strongly though. Biggar was solid, if unspectacular. Was deservedly dropped from what seemed his guaranteed perch to SJ's sucessor at 10, and Priestland was unlucky to not get a go in the 6N; he's proving now he was good enough.

Don't think Robinson would have done better than Hook. For me, FHF, you do seem to have a problem with Hook. He did well in the warm ups, and may well come good at 10 eventually. A bit of balance mate, I think that's what most people are having a go for...

OK , guys, here's an attempt to introduce a bit of rigour into the debate. Let's look at some sources that should be more objective than the partisans here - the newspaper and blog player ratings. I've used the ones that google came up with first, so no cherry-picking of the data,

In the 6 nations, Hook started 3 matches at 10, Stephen Jones started 2. In the warm-ups, Hook played 10 in 2 matches, Priestland in 2 (a half each). So far in this WC RP has played 2 matches at 10.

So 5 data points for Hook, 4 for Priestland, and 2 for SJ. The average ratings of the players are as follows -

Stephen Jones - 5
James Hook - 7
Rhys Priestland - 7.12

Read the comments on the games. They're quite interesting. Absolutely NO WAY has Hook had a poor season at 10 in the limited opportunities he has been given. Stephen Jones had done nothing. RP has been good, and scores slightly higher than Hook, but it's a small difference. Hook averaged slightly higher scores at centre and 15. On these numbers, he was our best back in the 6N by a country mile.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8305975/Wales-v-England-how-the-players-rated-during-the-Six-Nations-opener-in-in-Cardiff.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8378612/Wales-v-Ireland-how-the-players-rated.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8349729/Italy-v-Wales-how-the-players-rated-in-Rome.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8320825/Scotland-v-Wales-player-ratings.html

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rbs-6-nations-2011-wales-player-ratings-versus-france

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rwc-warm-up-wales-player-ratings-v-england

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8700004/Wales-v-England-player-ratings.html

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/wales-v-argentina-player-ratings-2


http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rwc-2011-wales-player-ratings-v-samoa

FHF, perhaps you can run the standard deviations for us?

miaow

This is the way it is ............. Hook is better than any 10 we have in Scotland. He is a classy attacking 10 perhaps the best hand-off in Europe, and a burst of speed when he sees a gap that often delivers a try for him or a team mate, a bigger boot than most. Hows that for balance.

The game he played against England in 2007/8 was superb, but if you are going to bang about that then you also have to look at his new few games in Australia when he was dire. That was 60 points he left thro in two games as a result of his mismanagement............... Now you better ask the others for a bit of balance!!. Good then Bad Good then Bad

Whilst if he had blue blood Hook might be our nailed on 10, IMHO he is perhaps 4th or 5th in Wales. Jones, Priestland, Biggar, Tovey are better 10s ......and a whole trawler full coming behind including Matthew Morgan.

When he played those first 25-30 mins against us, all 15 of us were on our feet applauding, when he made that break for the try I shouted
"thats the new breed of Welsh 10 and his name is Hook..... James Hook", not just because of the break, but his positioning, defence, out of hand kicks, and even some decent tackles, an all round performance of some standing.

Unfortunately we decided to get out of 1st gear and his foibles soon arose, and his next 40 mins went downhill at a rate of knots

Thats balance!! Good Bad Good Bad Good Bad

I think Robinson had three "on the bounce" very good games at 10 last season, did Hook have three very good games on the bounce for the Os last season ahem I really don't think he had three good games in any position.

This is not an Hook thing............... it is a response to the one liners
e.g.
Hook is the best 10 in Wales this year FACT.

Now if you want balance ........... have a gander at their posts

samuraidragon wrote:FHF, perhaps you can run the standard deviations for us?

hahahaha well done Samurai buddy................. I am sure if I gave Hooks v Jones stats since 2007 to one of my grads, I could provide you with some marvelous reading which of course you would want to be quietly disposed of.

Bit like the X Files ................. keep it all under wraps

samuraidragon wrote:OK , guys, here's an attempt to introduce a bit of rigour into the debate. Let's look at some sources that should be more objective than the partisans here - the newspaper and blog player ratings. I've used the ones that google came up with first, so no cherry-picking of the data,

In the 6 nations, Hook started 3 matches at 10, Stephen Jones started 2. In the warm-ups, Hook played 10 in 2 matches, Priestland in 2 (a half each). So far in this WC RP has played 2 matches at 10.

So 5 data points for Hook, 4 for Priestland, and 2 for SJ. The average ratings of the players are as follows -

Stephen Jones - 5
James Hook - 7
Rhys Priestland - 7.12

Read the comments on the games. They're quite interesting. Absolutely NO WAY has Hook had a poor season at 10 in the limited opportunities he has been given. Stephen Jones had done nothing. RP has been good, and scores slightly higher than Hook, but it's a small difference. Hook averaged slightly higher scores at centre and 15. On these numbers, he was our best back in the 6N by a country mile.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8305975/Wales-v-England-how-the-players-rated-during-the-Six-Nations-opener-in-in-Cardiff.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8378612/Wales-v-Ireland-how-the-players-rated.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/8349729/Italy-v-Wales-how-the-players-rated-in-Rome.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/8320825/Scotland-v-Wales-player-ratings.html

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rbs-6-nations-2011-wales-player-ratings-versus-france

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rwc-warm-up-wales-player-ratings-v-england

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8700004/Wales-v-England-player-ratings.html

http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/wales-v-argentina-player-ratings-2


http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/rwc-2011-wales-player-ratings-v-samoa

To counter this
One reliable english tabloid !!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,, gave Priestland 5 on the weekend the lowest of any player, and 1/2p 9 ....... yeah as if that was correct

But of course I can trawl through the right paper until I find the right English writer to back my argument

I would perhaps use a stats source ESPN is quite good Samurai

ARGHHHHHH lets call a truce to all this I am spending more time arguing a point than I am kicking the cat, and its much more fun kicking the cat.

Lets just says we all have an opinion, and thats just what it is.


play the pipes of peace

'data points'. Are these like magic beans, Samurai?

FHF, I'm picking up on your posts more than most because posters who say 'Hook is the best 10 FACT' are clearly idiots, and I think you're one of the posters who has a bit more going on.

There's no way Biggar is a better 10, he only plays 10 because of his good boot; Hook's distribution and decision making is better (and that's saying something!). I'd have Hook over Tovey still, and Hook can do things Priestland and SJ cannot. I'd make him 3rd choice. He's suffered from his own versatility; if Biggar had been able to play another position, he would have been dropped for his dire '09/10 form. Hook was never given time, which was scandalous management.

Also...

flyhalffactory wrote:ARGHHHHHH lets call a truce to all this I am spending more time arguing a point than I am kicking the cat, and its much more fun kicking the cat.

...I hope that wasn't referring to me...

miaow wrote:'data points'. Are these like magic beans, Samurai?

FHF, I'm picking up on your posts more than most because posters who say 'Hook is the best 10 FACT' are clearly idiots, and I think you're one of the posters who has a bit more going on.

Nope, data points are data points. I thought I'd better back up my assertions with some FACTs, or I might get called an idiot by some rude fellow.

Let's see your facts, Miaow.

nothing wrong with a bit of conviction miaow

and samurai you are deffo not an idiot.............