Leicester vs Saracens discussion

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=6544

Saracens team in link.

Saracens face Leicester Tigers in the Aviva Premiership at Welford Road on Saturday and have named their side for the game.

In team changes, following a heavy knock last weekend, hooker Schalk Brits misses the game so Jamie George comes in to start with Harry Allen on the bench. Will Fraser and Jackson Wray both start in the back row with Justin Melck ruled out with a calf injury while Andy Saull is named on the bench.

The only other change to the starting XV sees Owen Farrell start at centre alongside Brad Barritt with Adam Powell among the replacements. George Kruis also returns to the bench in place of Hugh Vyvyan.

Saracens line-up vs Leicester Tigers

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Brad Barritt
12 Owen Farrell
11 Joe Maddock
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Jamie George
3 Carlos Nieto
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Harry Allen
17 Deon Carstens
18 Mako Vunipola
19 George Kruis
20 Andy Saull
21 Ben Spencer
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short


Quite pleased with the team actually. Not sure about the backrow but as Melck is injured it will do. Jackson Wray at blindside is very strange. Bit worried about the breakdown area.

Front five looks tasty. Should look to dominate the set piece.

Backline looks good though why is James Short not back in instead of Maddock.

Bench looks good though - pace and power.


I will put up the Leicester side when it comes up.

After seeing the running options you have out wide and with Hodgson as the play maker I'm glad this game is being played at Welford Rd which is famously narrow! Think it will be a long old afternoon for the Tigers front row but on the upside our backrow is looking pretty good and our locks have as much power as yours but more mobility which will hopefully offset the spanking they are going to receive in the line out.

Yup it's the backrow I am worried about. We could really do with Kelly Brown or Jacques Burger being available. Especially as they would have relished smashing Ford.

Jackson Wray isn't a blindside. Also we really struggled at the breakdown vs Wasps.

Will Mr Tait be making an appearance off the bench?

What type of game do you think this will be? Free flowing champagne rugby or a dour arm wrestle?

Ford has held up pretty well in defence, Newcastle threw a lot of their bigger blokes at him and he did very well, don't think he missed one even if he was driven back. His distribution is going to really trouble Sarries if they get their rush defence wrong as he picked apart Wasps very well when the forwards secured him any decent ball.

Tait well I have no idea we'll have to wait and see, Tigers will be playing with a degree of width as with a mobile back and second row they won't want to hang about especially as the more physical Saracens forwards won't give much in the tight. Don't think they'll rattle it wide but more likely use moves from the shoulder of Ford and through the centres.

Tigers likely to struggle in the tight, and sadly Grindal will clog it all up. George Ford would thrive with Mickey Young inside him.

Hope to see Tait get some game time.

Sam in your opinion what do you think will be the biggest battles?

Personally for me Gill vs Holford - I believe Stankovich and Nieto will cancel each other out as both are excellent scrummagers. Gill needs to assert his authority and capitalise on a weakness I see in the Leicester team.

Jackson Wray vs Steve Mafi - the breakdown will be fiercely contested and and where Tigers could have the upper hand. The two key players in this battle in my opinion are the two players playing out of position. Jackson Wray is primarily a no 8 whereas Mafi is a 2nd row. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Hodgson vs Ford - the fly halves - their kicking,defences and ability to get the backlines moving will be pivotal. Hodgon's experience vs Ford's youth.

Personally I'm looking forward to Twelvetrees vs Barritt, the two forgotten centres of England Saxons will be looking to get one up in order to give themselves a strong case for a 6N call up. Both big, strong and quick and both have good footballing skills and are able to take on a play making role.

I wouldn't say Twelvetrees is forgotten at all. Lots of hype for a player with so few games at centre under his belt.

If he wasn't at Leicester would the hype and clamour for him to be an England player be so great?

Billy Twelvetrees cannot nail down himself as a first choice Leicester player. Behind A.Allen at inside centre. Behind Manu Tuilagi at outside centre. Behind Flood and now Ford at fly half.

He is an utility back who needs to settle on a spot.

Only Leicester players can be 2nd choice and get into England squads unfortunately.

Surprised MJ didn't take him. He ticks all of MJ's boxes.

I don't see that Saracens midfield working effectively, Tigers will surely be targeting the 10-12 axis, and I think they'll profit from it, Hodgson needs better support outside him that Farrell can offer.

Curious that the players who should be England's next two ICs are playing against each other at OC.

The clamour isn't that great, particularly in professional circles and at Tigers. Billy clearly has all the required skills to be a world class centre but at the minute suffers from a lack of consistentcy and very rare lapses of concentration. I used the term because both were used in the England Saxons but seemed to drop right off the England radar come team selection time despite a lack of options in the centres.

He's only been used as a utility back when Tigers were two fly halfs down and Ford was 17 and even smaller than he is now. This idea that he floats around the backline is garbage he plays centre or when Tigers are desperate at 10. Pretty much the same as Barritt who played 10/12 in SA and now plays 12/13 at Sarries.

radelven they played that formation in the 2nd half against Worcester. Scoring two tries. One was Barritt battering his way through to score.

Farrell is an excellent tackler. More worried about Hodgson's tackling than anyone. Farrell's original position is inside centre.

Barritt is first choice. Twelvetrees isn't.

If Manu Tuilagi was back,Twelvetrees would be warming the bench wouldn't he?

My main point is that he hasn't nailed down a spot. He has played in 3 different positions - there is a danger he will become a utility back covering where needed till better players are back.

If he isn't first choice inside centre how can he justify playing for England there?

If he isn't first choice inside centre how can he justify playing for England there?.

Same could be said for Hape.

Twelvetrees is quickly becomming a key player to Tigers as his place kicking and general game are currently adding a great deal to the Tigers team. It is not unusual for Cockers to make promising players pay their dues before earning a place in the team. Matt Smith a good example of that and Slater and Twelvetrees are finishing their apprentiship and stepping up at the minute. Rarely does Cockers turn to teenagers and promote them straight to the first team he likes them to prove their worth at A League and on loan first so that when they come into the team they can be relied upon completely.

True Sam. I think you know I am not a big fan of Hape. Did well against a knackered Georgia on the weekend though.

If Twelvetrees is a key player why hasn't he been used more? Allen and Tuilagi have nailed down the two centre spots. Can Billy get a look in?

He is cover till the cavalry is back.

What about Ford? Surely he is a teenager promoted to first team?

I did say very rarely, Manu and Ford seem to be breaking the mold somewhat, although, Ford is only in as Staunton missed all of pre season. Ford also started his introduction into the first team two years ago. Billy certainly wasn't a central figure to the team last season but this year he seems to have moved on and is developing into more and more of an asset.

Sam we'll know more after this weekend and when Manu Tuilagi is back.

I want our pack to make life as difficult as possible for Ford.

What do you think of the mighty Grindal starting for you?

Certainly his performance vs Sarries could well be an important factor in his position within the squad once Manu returns. Twelvetrees is in the position where he needs to lay down a marker and as Manu did make the case for starting him more convincing than the case for starting somebody else.

Grindal is solid though slow but crucially he controls the forwards well and that usually leads to better if slower ball to the ten. Young picks up the pace but he doesn't control the forwards anywhere near as well and so sometimes the ball reaches Ford in a far scrappier (though normally quicker) fashion which doesn't help. Any ten will tell you clean ball is the most important thing, quick ball is good but if you're reaching for it then you're always trying to reajust before the next pass.

What's this Will Fraser like, is he a similar player to Saull? Must be fairly good to take Saull's place in the team even on rotation.

beshocked wrote:radelven they played that formation in the 2nd half against Worcester. Scoring two tries. One was Barritt battering his way through to score.

Farrell is an excellent tackler. More worried about Hodgson's tackling than anyone. Farrell's original position is inside centre.

Barritt is first choice. Twelvetrees isn't.

If Manu Tuilagi was back,Twelvetrees would be warming the bench wouldn't he?

My main point is that he hasn't nailed down a spot. He has played in 3 different positions - there is a danger he will become a utility back covering where needed till better players are back.

If he isn't first choice inside centre how can he justify playing for England there?

Neither of those tries involved Farrell playing in the IC position though. For the Strettle try Barritt was at first receiver, with some crisp passing from him and Hodgson outside him down the line to Farrell who slipped it out to the winger. For his own try, Barritt was aligned in his normal IC position and it was as a result of well executed, hard, pacy scissor move with Hodgson.

Farrell's original position was indeed at IC, but that playing time was largely accrued outside of senior rugby, which is a completely different and more physical kettle of fish. I wasn't questioning his tackling in my original comment about supporting Hodgson, he is indeed very able (though Barritt would shore that side of things up more), more that he doesn't offer enough physical threat at IC to get the most out of Hodgson's passing game, and that if Tigers are savvy they will seek to stranglehold the backline there should Saracens not attempt to kick.

To get the most out of the game, Saracens will have to (and possibly are intending to) switch their centres depending on their attack.


In relation to Twelvetrees, yes, Cockerill does make some curious selections at times, but as the Saxons selectors showed last year, they won't let that effect their thinking and the national need. I understand Cockerill's belief in Allen, but his resistance to give Twelvetrees a go in his best position last season and Allen a week off once in a while, or for him not to switch them so far this season, despite Twelvetrees' superior distribution ability and Allen's experience of the OC role, seems very rigid and somewhat baffling.

Radelven they do switch positions during the game but seeing as Allen organises the defence and is the most experienced I think Cockers wants him alongside the young George Ford to help him with his positioning etc. Flood did put on record last season that Allen makes his job a lot easier and that he had recommended him to Brian Smith.

Sam Will Fraser is a Saracens academy graduate. Been playing for the Saracens Storm for the last two seasons. He has played well in my opinion when coming on so deserves a shot. Saull has been in poor form so drops to the bench. He's different to Saull. Not as quick but arguably better ball carrier and is busy at the breakdown.He's more like a 6.5. Not a true openside. Deserves his chance.

I really want to see Jamie George make the most of this start for him. He has been behind Brits for so long and with Smit coming in he has a real opportunity to lay down a marker. In my opinion he's better in the set piece than Brits.

radelven when I mean formation I mean they were the two centres. Saracens interchange a lot. They like to try and use Goode as well. Expect to see variety as you suggest they will.

Hodgson will help Farrell becoming more attacking hopefully.

I just want to see the Saracens backline let their hair down a little. Less kicking, go through the phases, make slick passes and the gaps will open.

It is relief to not have the Tuilagi bros running at Hodgson.

Have we really seen Farrell try to be physical though? He is 6,2 15 stone 2lb so no lightweight.

I'll have to keep my eye out for them swapping, I can't say I've noticed it that much aside from when a tackled player has dictated the realignment

Yes, I can completely understand that in defence, but your hope must principally be to attack and I would have thought Twelvetrees' skillset would assist Ford more there, taking some of the pressure off his game running responsibilities. I'd have Allen at 13 and ask him to go to IC in defensive situations (if they do swap often, maybe that's semantic in nature though).

Out of curiosity, has Flood played a game with Twelvetrees at IC yet?

You might well be right beshocked, but that we haven't seen it so far in his game (even for the U20s where his size would hold more of a comparitive advantage) suggests that it's not a natural part of his game. I couldn't see him scoring the try that Barritt did last week for instance, and I think those sorts of running lines and moves (dummy or not) are what will get the most out of Hodgson and give him time on the ball to create the opportunities for the backline that you want to see.

It'll be interesting to see how they play and interchange throughout a whole game.

Leicester have too many injuries and World Cup departures to contend with, if Leicester can only beat Newcastle by one point and lose to Exeter at home, then a strong Saracens side with dangerous backs will most likely beat them at Welford Road.

Leicester are starting some young players, I think a lad is making his first appearance for them this weekend, so he will have a hard task to deal with.

Saracens are missing players in the forwards, but I think the backs can do Leicester damage. A Premiership experienced half back pairing, is what they need, George Ford against the veteran of Hodgson will be a good battle. Farrell with skill and a kicking game from 12, while Barritt will intend to break through lines and hit hard all game. Maddock and Strettle on the wings is highly dangerous, plus they have Short to come off the bench who has done some damage to Leicester before.

Can see Saracens clinching this, Leicester have big problems.

Interesting that in the build up to the match Healey has said Farrell isn't a centre.

And pretty sure he was thinking mainly of the pun when he said he spoke to Hodgson midweek and he said "he told me he loves playing with de Kock".

WTF is up with the Tigers? Some of that tackling is bloody pathetic...

Well done Sarries though.

Not impressed by tigers at all and pleasantly surprised by how entertaining sarries have been. Tait has played pretty well but looks to be well short of match fitness.

On a side note I would be very happy as an England supporter to have Farrell at 12 with Manu outside. If we need a call up I could see him as an outside bet

As long as the Tigers current form holds till after we meet them at Welford Road i will be delighted!

Great to see how good Barritt, and indeed Sarries as a whole, look when they try to play expansive rugby. More please!

GangGreen, surely the conclusion from that game is that if England need a 12, Barritt has to be top of the list. Farrell had 12 on his back, but Barritt played the 12 role, and his excellent running of the defensive line would see us continue to get the best out of Tuilagi.

hawalsh, either would be a better option than Hape lol. I like both of them but to be honest I like that bit of an edge Farrell has to him. I think either of them would bring that creative edge that is lacking at the moment

WTF is up with the Tigers? Some of that tackling is bloody pathetic...

I play for a social side and if I tackled like some of those so called first teamers I'd be dropped, pathetic is exactly the right word, especially for Joubert's first try that was just embarrassing. The only positives for Tigers are that it's their young guns that are looking passionate and making a game of it; Tom Youngs looked every bit an AP level hooker when he came on and should now be first choice, Ford played exceptionally well under a lot of pressure, Tait and Young looked bright off of the bench, Armes had only 8 minutes but spent all of it in the thick of things putting his body on the line (take note Mr Woods and Mr Mafi), Ed Slater is starting to look like a proper Tigers lock (just need to mold Kitchener) and Twelvetrees played well again.

It's interesting that you guys now think Farrell has creativity. Working with Hodgson will help in this area. Hopefully the other Sarries guys can teach Hodgson to tackle.

The Leicester fans seem to forget Saracens were still missing 11 players - 3 to injuries and 8 to the world cup. Not as many as Leicester but still a lot.

What were the youngsters Jamie George,Will Fraser and Jackson Wray like?

Nice to see Saracens being ruthless. They are starting to build up nice winning records. Especially an immense away record in the AP which includes 3 wins in a row at FG, 3 at the Rec,2 at the Stoop and 3 at WR.

I do feel sorry for Leicester a little bit but even a weakened Leicester side shouldn't fall like that at home to anyone.

even a weakened Leicester side shouldn't fall like that at home to anyone. .

That is the concensus with the Tigers faithful, going down fighting is one thing but some of the defending was pathetic and that isn't acceptable and is exactly the thing that will see the fans getting annoyed.

I don't think Farrell actually played that well, in a game where chances were bountifull he really didn't show much in the way of attack intent. Some of his kicking from hand was excellent but at no point did I think of him as much of a threat. The Hodgeson to Barritt miss pass was the move that was most likely to cause us issues as Barritt drew players in and released your outside backs. On a side note, how the hell is Maddock keeping Short out of the team?!?

What were the youngsters Jamie George,Will Fraser and Jackson Wray like?

Jamie George was solid and reliable but didn't really shine, his try was an easy walk in with all the work done by the time he got the ball on the edge of an overlap. Fraser was good and seemed to work very hard around the breakdowns, Wray didn't offer much but a willing workhorse. Whoever, your number 19 was, was lucky to stay on the park. Taking a running jump into the middle of a scuffle is normally an easy yellow but he got away with a few clouts round the head, Saull had no real influence off of the bench. The ref really wasn't helping Tigers the Kitchener 'stamp' incident for example was farcical.

Sam from your assessment it seems most of the Saracens players were decidedly average. Who stood out then? Someone must have played well surely?

I don't know why Short didn't start. I would have definitely have played him.

Were for example Barritt and Hodgson the main guys in the backline?

Sarries front five bossed it really well up front, they didn't get the control they wanted at the line out but they maintained control on their own ball and really took the fight to the Tigers scrum. The backrow worked very hard but they didn't really threaten the Tigers breakdown as much as I think they would have liked, though Joubert seemed to have an identical twin on the park he was everywhere. Sarries half backs controlled the game well and kept the team moving, Barritt was man of the match by a country mile and the outside backs made easy metres, Short looked good when he came on in particular.

Sam that's great as it was hardly a full strength Saracens backrow with Burger and Brown at the world cup,Melck injured and an off form Saull on the bench. Sounds pleasing. Pleased Joubert has found some form at last.

I know Leicester were missing players in the backrow too but it's one area I thought you would have the edge.

Short looking good doesn't surprise me.

Thanks again for being so gracious. I can understand it must be tough.

I vented my frustration at the time. Tigers certainly controlled their own breakdowns but the backrow just weren't up to scratch Salvi aside (he was immense, a proper Tigers). Woods was good when trying to slow/steal ball at the ruck but he just didn't make enough impact in the tackle area and Mafi who previously has been excellent just looked off the pace, maybe suffering a little fatigue. If Burger had been playing I think Sarries would have had a least one more try if not two just because our breakdown would have been under a lot more pressure. Tigers badly missed Croft who is a covering tackle machine and would have helped a lot and Jordan Crane who would have just brought a lot of control and work rate to the defence as he is a real leader as well as a work horse.

As I said the big plus points for Tigers are that so many young talents are stepping up and that does help the frustration, especially some of the talent emerging in the forwards. Ed Slater could be an England international in a year or two if he keeps developing at the speed he has so far. Worked his socks off and really competed well against Borthwick at the lineout which was a huge bonus, seeing him throw his weight around a bit more certainly helps. Ditto Tom Youngs he threw better at the lineout than Chutes and was all action around the park, not Brits level but in similar manner.

Yes the Tiger's younsters were their best players (and Armes even made it onto the pitch!), but you surely suspect that Cockerill will start Grindall and Chuter again next weekend? Tait looked sururisingly good at OC, but perhaps injured himself. If Allen is out for a few weeks then Twelvetrees has a few weeks to try to win the IC shirt off him.

Sarries number 19 was George Kruis, and running into the middle of 3 Tiger's forwards like that is known as a poor (if quite funny) decision.

Tait looked sururisingly good at OC

It looked more like Tait was on the wing and allowed to roam with Smith running from OC. Maybe I got that wrong as alignment wasn't really the name of Tigers game.

Sadly Grindal and Chuter probabley will start again next week, the only upside is that after today Castro only has one more game and then will be back to help sure up the scrum. Maybe then we can drop Chutes and bring in the massive prospect that is Tom Youngs, I thought he'd be good around the park (which he is) but what really took me by surpise is that the scrum looked better with him on and his lineout throwing was better than Chuters. Good to see Armes get a run out as well, shame we didn't get the chance to see him attack ball in hand but it was nice to see him so intent on stopping Sarries getting that last try, he was at every breakdown and following the pre season praise he got from Cockers in the Mercury we should hopefully see some more of him.