Was Federer better in 2006? (Poll added)

First topic message reminder :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQp62NI2_I

I don't think so! His today's shots are actually better, more agressive, including his FH. It might be that it seemed windy that day and he tried to keep the ball in court so used a lot of spin. But in general I find his shots today smoother, his BH slice for instance is more elegant. His shot selection is also better now. You can tell he has learnt to play Nadal...over the last few years. The problem is that Nadal got even stronger.

Tenez wrote:LF - Can you pull a list of all Fed's matches and results of 2006?

Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=pa&y=2006&m=s&e=0#

Losses to Murray(Cincinnati), Nadal (RG), Nadal (Rome), Nadal (MC), Nadal (Dubai)

Let me know if you need specific statistics from these matches.

Tennis Masters Cup, China; 13.11.2006; WC; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 8
Round Opponent Ranking Score

RR David Nalbandian (ARG) 7 W 3-6, 6-1, 6-1 Stats
RR Andy Roddick (USA) 5 W 4-6, 7-6(8), 6-4 Stats
RR Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 4 W 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
S Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 W 6-4, 7-5 Stats
W James Blake (USA) 8 W 6-0, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
This Event Points: 750, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,520,000

Basel, Switzerland; 23.10.2006; WS; Indoor: Carpet; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Tomas Zib (CZE) 151 W 6-1, 6-2 Stats
R16 Guillermo Garcia-Lopez (ESP) 75 W 6-2, 6-0 Stats
Q David Ferrer (ESP) 15 W 6-3, 7-6(14) Stats
S Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 54 W 6-4, 3-6, 7-6(5) Stats
W Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 7 W 6-3, 6-2, 7-6(3) Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $142,000

ATP Masters Series Madrid, Spain; 16.10.2006; SU; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 48
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 45 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
R16 Robin Soderling (SWE) 29 W 7-6(5), 7-6(8) Stats
Q Robby Ginepri (USA) 47 W 6-3, 7-6(4) Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 4 W 6-4, 6-0 Stats
W Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 10 W 7-5, 6-1, 6-0 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $450,000

Tokyo, Japan; 02.10.2006; CS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 48

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Viktor Troicki (SRB) 276 W 7-6(2), 7-6(3) Stats
R16 Wesley Moodie (RSA) 73 W 6-2, 6-1 Stats
Q Takao Suzuki (JPN) 1,078 W 4-6, 7-5, 7-6(3) Stats
S Benjamin Becker (GER) 72 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
W Tim Henman (GBR) 55 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $118,000

SUI v. SCG WG PO, Switzerland; 22.09.2006; DC; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 4
Round Opponent Ranking Score

RR Janko Tipsarevic (SRB) 92 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-2
RR Novak Djokovic (SRB) 21 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3
This Event Points: , South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $

US Open, NY, U.S.A.; 28.08.2006; GS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Jimmy Wang (TPE) 109 W 6-4, 6-1, 6-0 Stats
R64 Tim Henman (GBR) 62 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-5 Stats
R32 Vincent Spadea (USA) 84 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Marc Gicquel (FRA) 79 W 6-3, 7-6(2), 6-3 Stats
Q James Blake (USA) 7 W 7-6(7), 6-0, 6-7(9), 6-4 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 6 W 6-1, 7-5, 6-4 Stats
W Andy Roddick (USA) 10 W 6-2, 4-6, 7-5, 6-1 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,200,000

ATP Masters Series Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.; 14.08.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 45 W 7-5, 6-4 Stats
R32 Andy Murray (GBR) 21 L 5-7, 4-6 Stats
This Event Points: 35, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $15,000

ATP Masters Series Canada, Toronto, Canada; 07.08.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Paul-Henri Mathieu (FRA) 36 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
R32 Sebastien Grosjean (FRA) 33 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
R16 Dmitry Tursunov (RUS) 27 W 6-3, 5-7, 6-0 Stats
Q Xavier Malisse (BEL) 41 W 7-6(4), 6-7(5), 6-3 Stats
S Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 16 W 6-1, 5-7, 6-3 Stats
W Richard Gasquet (FRA) 51 W 2-6, 6-3, 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $400,000

Wimbledon, England; 26.06.2006; GS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 50 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-2 Stats
R64 Tim Henman (GBR) 64 W 6-4, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
R32 Nicolas Mahut (FRA) 77 W 6-3, 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 14 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 10 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-4 Stats
S Jonas Bjorkman (SWE) 59 W 6-2, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 W 6-0, 7-6(5), 6-7(2), 6-3 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,190,725

Halle, Germany; 12.06.2006; WS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Rohan Bopanna (IND) 267 W 7-6(4), 6-2 Stats
R16 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 51 W 7-6(7), 6-7(7), 6-4 Stats
Q Olivier Rochus (BEL) 29 W 6-7(2), 7-6(9), 7-6(5) Stats
S Tommy Haas (GER) 26 W 6-4, 6-7(4), 6-3 Stats
W Tomas Berdych (CZE) 15 W 6-0, 6-7(4), 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 225, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $113,000

Roland Garros, France; 29.05.2006; GS; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 6-1, 1-6, 4-6, 6-7(4) Stats
This Event Points: 700, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $598,350

ATP Masters Series Rome, Italy; 08.05.2006; SU; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Juan Ignacio Chela (ARG) 30 W 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 81 W 6-3, 7-6(2) Stats
R16 Radek Stepanek (CZE) 18 W 6-1, 6-4 Stats
Q Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 54 W 6-3, 6-7(2), 7-5 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 6-3, 3-6, 7-6(5) Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 7-6(0), 6-7(5), 4-6, 6-2, 6-7(5) Stats
This Event Points: 350, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $200,000

ATP Masters Series Monte Carlo, Monaco; 17.04.2006; SU; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Novak Djokovic (SRB) 67 W 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 Stats
R32 Alberto Martin (ESP) 66 W 6-0, 6-1 Stats
R16 Benjamin Balleret (MON) 351 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
Q David Ferrer (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-3 Stats
S Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 21 W 6-2, 6-4 Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 2-6, 7-6(2), 3-6, 6-7(5) Stats
This Event Points: 350, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $200,000

ATP Masters Series Miami, FL, U.S.A.; 20.03.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Arnaud Clement (FRA) 53 W 6-2, 6-7(4), 6-0 Stats
R32 Tommy Haas (GER) 28 W 6-1, 6-3 Stats
R16 Dmitry Tursunov (RUS) 36 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
Q James Blake (USA) 9 W 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
S David Ferrer (ESP) 11 W 6-1, 6-4 Stats
W Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 6 W 7-6(5), 7-6(4), 7-6(6) Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $533,350

ATP Masters Series Indian Wells, CA, U.S.A.; 06.03.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 47 W 6-3, 7-6(4) Stats
R32 Olivier Rochus (BEL) 32 W 3-6, 6-2, 7-5 Stats
R16 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 18 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
Q Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 6 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
S Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 61 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
W James Blake (USA) 14 W 7-5, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $490,000

Dubai, U.A.E.; 27.02.2006; CS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Stanislas Wawrinka (SUI) 57 W 7-6(3), 6-3 Stats
R16 Mohammad Ghareeb (KUW) 488 W 7-6(5), 6-4 Stats
Q Robin Vik (CZE) 75 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
S Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 52 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 6-2, 4-6, 4-6 Stats
This Event Points: 210, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $98,600

Australian Open, Australia; 16.01.2006; GS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Denis Istomin (UZB) 195 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-2 Stats
R64 Florian Mayer (GER) 69 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R32 Max Mirnyi (BLR) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R16 Tommy Haas (GER) 41 W 6-4, 6-0, 3-6, 4-6, 6-2 Stats
Q Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 5 W 6-4, 3-6, 7-6(7), 7-6(5) Stats
S Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 25 W 6-3, 5-7, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
W Marcos Baghdatis (CYP) 54 W 5-7, 7-5, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $922,560

Doha, Qatar; 02.01.2006; WS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Ivo Minar (CZE) 73 W 6-1, 6-3 Stats
R16 Fabrice Santoro (FRA) 58 W 7-6(2), 7-6(5) Stats
Q Marcos Baghdatis (CYP) 55 W 6-4, 6-3 Stats
S Tommy Haas (GER) 45 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
W Gael Monfils (FRA) 30 W 6-3, 7-6(5) Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $142,000

Tenez wrote:

The fitness/reaction time line is on the way down from 2006

I actually disagree with this simple observation. If that was the case Federer woudl look rushed but if anything he looks he has even more time now than then and as said many times, his timing is better now.

Watch this clip!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gytH8lEUcs

That's 2011! Nothing suggests he is tangibly slower or has slower reaction times.

The clip is impressive - but if you watched anyone in the top 100 you could probably dig out 10 super shots. The trick is being able to repeat, as you well know!

The stars aligned for Sampras in 2002 at the USO.

He didn't have to play any of the younger generation: Hewitt, Safin, who had been beating him recently.

He beat Schalken (who?) in the semis and Agassi (who he was always going to dominate on a fast HC) in the finals.

Prior to that USO Sampras hadn't won a tournament in over 2 years.

He most definitely was not a better player in his thirties compared to his mid-twenties.

As usual, you are using selected matches to generalise and then conveniently ignoring or dubiously explaining away any matches that counter your arguements.

I cannot think of a single great player who was better in his thirties than his twenties, since at least the 80's. The likes of Stepanek, needless to say, do not belong in this conversation.

Agassi may be the only exception, but even that I believe was more as a result of his lack of dedication and poorer conditioning early on in his career. Later on when he became more disciplined, his results improved. I have no doubt that if Agassi had been as dedicated in his mid-twenties he would have been a better player at that stage than he became later on in the early noughties.

barrystar wrote:

Tenez wrote:

The fitness/reaction time line is on the way down from 2006

I actually disagree with this simple observation. If that was the case Federer woudl look rushed but if anything he looks he has even more time now than then and as said many times, his timing is better now.

Watch this clip!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gytH8lEUcs

That's 2011! Nothing suggests he is tangibly slower or has slower reaction times.

The clip is impressive - but if you watched anyone in the top 100 you could probably dig out 10 super shots. The trick is being able to repeat, as you well know!

I know but you woudl struggle to find as many of those in the same player, in half the year!. Those shots still show teh mouvement and amazing reflexes.

laverfan wrote:
Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=pa&y=2006&m=s&e=0#

Losses to Murray(Cincinnati), Nadal (RG), Nadal (Rome), Nadal (MC), Nadal (Dubai)

Let me know if you need specific statistics from these matches.

Thanks LF. That's great.

Let me have a look at it and see whether it supports my case or not....but clearly already we can see he v struggles the young generation on all surfaces (though I am happy not to consider Murray's loss as significant.

Come on Tenez, he tanked one match to Murray and lost 3 to Nadal, two on clay and one by the thickness of a cigarette paper. The guy was awesome, despite playing a very full year.

Nobody is saying Federer is poor, just that there was an almost supernatural speed of reaction and movement that he no longer has. I'll even concede that he may have more security on some shots now, but he's very often playing them at a stretch now because he doesn't move so soon or so fast.

I have just hilighted some scores which certainly woudl look out of place today and people can see how different the opposition was.

Tennis Masters Cup, China; 13.11.2006; WC; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 8
Round Opponent Ranking Score

RR David Nalbandian (ARG) 7 W 3-6, 6-1, 6-1 Stats
RR Andy Roddick (USA) 5 W 4-6, 7-6(8), 6-4 Stats
RR Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 4 W 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
S Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 W 6-4, 7-5 Stats
W James Blake (USA) 8 W 6-0, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
This Event Points: 750, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,520,000

Basel, Switzerland; 23.10.2006; WS; Indoor: Carpet; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Tomas Zib (CZE) 151 W 6-1, 6-2 Stats
R16 Guillermo Garcia-Lopez (ESP) 75 W 6-2, 6-0 Stats
Q David Ferrer (ESP) 15 W 6-3, 7-6(14) Stats - Has a score been as close v Ferrer?
S Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 54 W 6-4, 3-6, 7-6(5) Stats
W Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 7 W 6-3, 6-2, 7-6(3) Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $142,000

ATP Masters Series Madrid, Spain; 16.10.2006; SU; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 48
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 45 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
R16 Robin Soderling (SWE) 29 W 7-6(5), 7-6(8) Stats
Q Robby Ginepri (USA) 47 W 6-3, 7-6(4) Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 4 W 6-4, 6-0 Stats
W Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 10 W 7-5, 6-1, 6-0 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $450,000

Tokyo, Japan; 02.10.2006; CS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 48

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R64 Bye N/A W
R32 Viktor Troicki (SRB) 276 W 7-6(2), 7-6(3) Stats
R16 Wesley Moodie (RSA) 73 W 6-2, 6-1 Stats
Q Takao Suzuki (JPN) 1,078 W 4-6, 7-5, 7-6(3) Stats
S Benjamin Becker (GER) 72 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
W Tim Henman (GBR) 55 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $118,000

SUI v. SCG WG PO, Switzerland; 22.09.2006; DC; Indoor: Hard; Draw: 4
Round Opponent Ranking Score

RR Janko Tipsarevic (SRB) 92 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-2
RR Novak Djokovic (SRB) 21 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3
This Event Points: , South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $

US Open, NY, U.S.A.; 28.08.2006; GS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Jimmy Wang (TPE) 109 W 6-4, 6-1, 6-0 Stats
R64 Tim Henman (GBR) 62 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-5 Stats
R32 Vincent Spadea (USA) 84 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Marc Gicquel (FRA) 79 W 6-3, 7-6(2), 6-3 Stats
Q James Blake (USA) 7 W 7-6(7), 6-0, 6-7(9), 6-4 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 6 W 6-1, 7-5, 6-4 Stats
W Andy Roddick (USA) 10 W 6-2, 4-6, 7-5, 6-1 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,200,000

ATP Masters Series Cincinnati, OH, U.S.A.; 14.08.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 45 W 7-5, 6-4 Stats
R32 Andy Murray (GBR) 21 L 5-7, 4-6 Stats
This Event Points: 35, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $15,000

ATP Masters Series Canada, Toronto, Canada; 07.08.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Paul-Henri Mathieu (FRA) 36 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats
R32 Sebastien Grosjean (FRA) 33 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
R16 Dmitry Tursunov (RUS) 27 W 6-3, 5-7, 6-0 Stats
Q Xavier Malisse (BEL) 41 W 7-6(4), 6-7(5), 6-3 Stats
S Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 16 W 6-1, 5-7, 6-3 Stats
W Richard Gasquet (FRA) 51 W 2-6, 6-3, 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $400,000

Wimbledon, England; 26.06.2006; GS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 50 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-2 Stats
R64 Tim Henman (GBR) 64 W 6-4, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
R32 Nicolas Mahut (FRA) 77 W 6-3, 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 14 W 6-3, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 10 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-4 Stats
S Jonas Bjorkman (SWE) 59 W 6-2, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
W Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 W 6-0, 7-6(5), 6-7(2), 6-3 Stats, some signs of nerves already on grass...
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $1,190,725

Halle, Germany; 12.06.2006; WS; Outdoor: Grass; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Rohan Bopanna (IND) 267 W 7-6(4), 6-2 Stats
R16 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 51 W 7-6(7), 6-7(7), 6-4 Stats
Q Olivier Rochus (BEL) 29 W 6-7(2), 7-6(9), 7-6(5) Stats - The dangerous O Rochus
S Tommy Haas (GER) 26 W 6-4, 6-7(4), 6-3 Stats
W Tomas Berdych (CZE) 15 W 6-0, 6-7(4), 6-2 Stats continued troubles v young Berdych
This Event Points: 225, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $113,000

Roland Garros, France; 29.05.2006; GS; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats - losing a set to Massu????WOudl he be forgiven for that today?
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 6-1, 1-6, 4-6, 6-7(4) Stats
This Event Points: 700, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $598,350

ATP Masters Series Rome, Italy; 08.05.2006; SU; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Juan Ignacio Chela (ARG) 30 W 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 81 W 6-3, 7-6(2) Stats
R16 Radek Stepanek (CZE) 18 W 6-1, 6-4 Stats
Q Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 54 W 6-3, 6-7(2), 7-5 Stats - losing a set to young Almagro?
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 6-3, 3-6, 7-6(5) Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 7-6(0), 6-7(5), 4-6, 6-2, 6-7(5) Stats
This Event Points: 350, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $200,000

ATP Masters Series Monte Carlo, Monaco; 17.04.2006; SU; Outdoor: Clay; Draw: 64
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R64 Novak Djokovic (SRB) 67 W 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 Stats (losoing a set v 19yo Djoko!!!! )
R32 Alberto Martin (ESP) 66 W 6-0, 6-1 Stats
R16 Benjamin Balleret (MON) 351 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
Q David Ferrer (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-3 Stats
S Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 21 W 6-2, 6-4 Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 2-6, 7-6(2), 3-6, 6-7(5) Stats !!!!!!!!!
This Event Points: 350, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $200,000

ATP Masters Series Miami, FL, U.S.A.; 20.03.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Arnaud Clement (FRA) 53 W 6-2, 6-7(4), 6-0 Stats - losing a set to Arnaud? While injured in Wimby 10, he did not lose a set v him
R32 Tommy Haas (GER) 28 W 6-1, 6-3 Stats
R16 Dmitry Tursunov (RUS) 36 W 6-3, 6-3 Stats
Q James Blake (USA) 9 W 7-6(2), 6-4 Stats
S David Ferrer (ESP) 11 W 6-1, 6-4 Stats
W Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 6 W 7-6(5), 7-6(4), 7-6(6) Stats !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $533,350

ATP Masters Series Indian Wells, CA, U.S.A.; 06.03.2006; SU; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 96
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Bye N/A W
R64 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 47 W 6-3, 7-6(4) Stats
R32 Olivier Rochus (BEL) 32 W 3-6, 6-2, 7-5 Stats Losing a set to O Rochus?!!!
R16 Richard Gasquet (FRA) 18 W 6-3, 6-4 Stats DIsmissing an improved Gasquet in Paris a few days ago with more ease than in 2006
Q Ivan Ljubicic (CRO) 6 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
S Paradorn Srichaphan (THA) 61 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
W James Blake (USA) 14 W 7-5, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
This Event Points: 500, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $490,000

Dubai, U.A.E.; 27.02.2006; CS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R32 Stanislas Wawrinka (SUI) 57 W 7-6(3), 6-3 Stats - Tough match v young Wawrinka
R16 Mohammad Ghareeb (KUW) 488 W 7-6(5), 6-4 Stats
Q Robin Vik (CZE) 75 W 6-3, 6-2 Stats
S Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 52 W 6-2, 6-3 Stats
F Rafael Nadal (ESP) 2 L 6-2, 4-6, 4-6 Stats
This Event Points: 210, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $98,600

Australian Open, Australia; 16.01.2006; GS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 128
Round Opponent Ranking Score

R128 Denis Istomin (UZB) 195 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-2 Stats
R64 Florian Mayer (GER) 69 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R32 Max Mirnyi (BLR) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R16 Tommy Haas (GER) 41 W 6-4, 6-0, 3-6, 4-6, 6-2 Stats
Q Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 5 W 6-4, 3-6, 7-6(7), 7-6(5) Stats
S Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 25 W 6-3, 5-7, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
W Marcos Baghdatis (CYP) 54 W 5-7, 7-5, 6-0, 6-2 Stats
This Event Points: 1,000, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $922,560
Doha, Qatar; 02.01.2006; WS; Outdoor: Hard; Draw: 32
Round Opponent Ranking Score


R16 Fabrice Santoro (FRA) 58 W 7-6(2), 7-6(5) Stats
W Gael Monfils (FRA) 30 W 6-3, 7-6(5) Stats
This Event Points: 250, South African Airways ATP Ranking: 1, Prize Money: $142,000

bogbrush wrote:Nobody is saying Federer is poor, just that there was an almost supernatural speed of reaction and movement that he no longer has.

I am not discussing the tanking v Murray as I agree but do you honestly say that you see him having slower reaction time? How come his timing (more secure shots) are not reflecting this slower reaction time?

I agree with most of what Fleming said. I don't think Federers movement has deteriorated, just that he has changed tactics back to that of 05-06 and is just re-asserting himself with them.

Hear hear!

The idea that Federer is slower and has slower reaction time doesn;t quite make sense considering he is keeping in touch with vastly improved Djoko and Nadal.

Federer has been in the league of his own for so long before the arrival of Nadal and now Djokovic, that commentators find it hard to reconcile the existence of the same man in two different eras.
I think that must be the main problem.

noleisthebest wrote:Federer has been in the league of his own for so long before the arrival of Nadal and now Djokovic, that commentators find it hard to reconcile the existence of the same man in two different eras.
I think that must be the main problem.

1949-1980 - Thirty-one years of memorable tennis, one year more than Federer's current age - at 5ft 9in(175 cms), a true 'giant' of the game. He is now 77 years young.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Ro/K/Ken-R-Rosewall.aspx?t=pa&y=0&m=s&e=0#

Tenez wrote:Hear hear!

The idea that Federer is slower and has slower reaction time doesn;t quite make sense considering he is keeping in touch with vastly improved Djoko and Nadal.

If there's one thing you DON'T need to stay in touch with the current elite it's reaction time. They don't do the high impact thing, they put the ball where you don't want it and make you play a lot.
Where the loss of reaction time shows is in the poor returning, and it's most pronounced if he meets Tsonga/Berdych etc on a fast court and/or good day.

Bar Wimbledon where I believe he was hampered 2 years in a row, he never lost against those guys when it really mattered.

The best I have seen him return was actually 2009. not 2006 (when he coudl not break Ljubo once in 3 sets!). The way he struggled in Wimby 2009 final v Roddick is a very poor reflexion of his returning skills he exposed just two rounds before v Ivo. I watched that one live and I don;t think I have seen better returning in my life. Another amazing piece of returning that went unoticed was in 2010 v Murray in that AO final. The number of balls that came back and woudl have been aces against most if not all players (bar Djoko more recently maybe) was really impressive, and that was more than anything what hurt Murray that day.

Returning is probably the most violent shot in tennis. The reaction time is one thing, then you need the leg muscles to propulse you as fast as your reactions want to.

The losses to Berdych and Tsonga outside slams happened in Montreal and Cincy this year and that in my view is certainly down to Fed's age. But not his slower mouvement or reaction time, but his energy saving. At 30, we can't expect a player who won it all to sacrify precious energy just before a slam, especially the slam when there is little recuperation available between the final rounds and he certainly doesn;t want to get injured there so I suspect he is not giving 100%. That could be confirmed by his handling of Tsonga a couple of weeks later when it really mattered.

That's where I think being 30 plays a big role. Not his tennis just yet. We are not going to see Federer trying to win everyting like when he was 25. First because of age but more importantly cause even if he were 25 today, winning everything woudl require nowadays a much more gruelling effort than it took in his hey days. Look at Nadal and Djoko for scars already after a dominating season.

Very insightful post Tenez

There's absolutely no doubt for me that in any single match an on-song Fed is still capable of matching or indeed beating whoever is put in front of him. This years SF of RG is clear evidence (and, to an extent, the Final itself too). And two top tenners caused him only minimal trouble in Bercy last week

But as one who has cited his advancing years more than once in recent threads, I firmly believe the issue now for Federer is more about recovery time throughout a full tournament. Slams have rightly always been the benchmark achievement, not just because of the quality and depth of the field but also because of the demands that come from seven Bo5 matches. Tough enough when you're in your twenties or younger. A huge ask once you've hit 29 or 30 ...... Only Sampras and Agassi have managed it in the last 20 years or so. And of course Agassi's fitness + energy levels in his thirties were almost freakish, very much a one-off I'd say.....

lags72 wrote:But as one who has cited his advancing years more than once in recent threads, I firmly believe the issue now for Federer is more about recovery time throughout a full tournament.

Exactly and this is why he has struggled in many TMS finals recently cause they line up tough matches days in a row and also the reason he lost USO09 at 28 only. I was worried about that Paris's TB cause Tsonga coudl have won the third set had it gone that far.

I have always mentioned that was Fed's problmes nowadays. Not his slower mouvements or reactions.

If Federer's 'recovery' is not complete from the previous match, it does clearly show up in his movement the next day, for example @Cincy against Berdych.

BTW...

WTF Group A: Djokovic, Murray, Ferrer, Berdych

WTF Group B: Nadal, Federer, Tsonga, Fish

"Even if he were 25 today, winning everything woudl require nowadays a much more gruelling effort than it took in his hey days. Look at Nadal and Djoko for scars already after a dominating season."
- very well said. If the gruelling tennis finals served up by Djoko and Rafa this year are anything to go by, the days of guys winning 80 or 90 matches a season are long gone. First, they won't be capable of it and secondly they won't NEED to play as much as that thanks to the current points sytem that so rewards Slam wins.
Fed won 92 matches a few years back. Reckon that won't be passed any time soon.

Set against the context of all the (wholly warranted ) praise heaped on Novak this year, 92 wins by Fed in a single season now seems almost surreal ......

Tenez wrote:The way he struggled in Wimby 2009 final v Roddick is a very poor reflexion of his returning skills he exposed just two rounds before v Ivo. I watched that one live and I don;t think I have seen better returning in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZOovbB7N0

Tenez wrote: Another amazing piece of returning that went unoticed was in 2010 v Murray in that AO final.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNM7tFzFCLU

Fed's returning against Roddick in that match in 2009 was indeed good. It's just that he wasn't able to rally for some reason. It's strange how he lost all that from just 2 days earlier as he was amazing in his semi against Haas. Maybe it was the nerves of breaking Sampras' record either way that semi against Haas was the last good match I've seen him play there.

Roger has been a poor returner on grass since 2007.

In his final matches at Wimbledon in '07, 08, 09, 10, 11 against Nadal(2), Roddick, Berdych, and Tsonga he has managed just 5 breaks of serve. That's right folks just 5, and 2 of those came in W 07 final against Nadal.

In those five matches he played 24 sets, two of which were marathon sets and yet he only managed to break serve five times.

I think that tells us pretty much where Roger stands on grass. In comparison from 03-06 in his four final matches he managed 11 breaks of serve in just 18 sets of tennis. The courts were probably playing faster in that period too. His opponents were Philipoussis, Roddick(2) and Nadal.

Roger's baseline game on grass is clearly far below what it used to be. In his last few outings at Wimbledon he's been bullied on the baseline by Nadal, Roddick (yes lmao, Roddick), Berdych and Tsonga.

But of course he's a better player than he used to be

As for pundits stating that Roger is better than he used to be then the only person I've ever heard saying that is the idiotic Wilander, who's basically a media whore who like Cash courts controversy.

On the other hand, the vast majority of pundits have spoken about how Roger 'is a step slower', more inconsistent, his shanks have become more frequent, not quite the player he used to be, etc. As far back as 2008 the pundits were talking about how Roger's level had dipped from previous years. Koening only said 'this is some of the best tennis I've seen Roger play this year' after the final in Paris (Bercy). And he was right, it was some of Roger's best tennis this year, which is not surprising since he usually plays his best tennis indoors, but he was only referring to this year.

Over the last few years 08-11, Roger has played a few good tournaments, the most notable probably being WTF 2010. But just because he can play like the Roger of old once in a blue moon does not mean he is now a better player.

emancipator wrote:Roger has been a poor returner on grass since 2007.

In his final matches at Wimbledon in '07, 08, 09, 10, 11 against Nadal(2), Roddick, Berdych, and Tsonga he has managed just 5 breaks of serve. That's right folks just 5, and 2 of those came in W 07 final against Nadal.

That's not a fair representation of his returning skills and just shows you are bent on trying to be right instead of considering the alternative. You ignore that Federer stopped Karlovic, Safin, Ancic, Soderling, Delpo all great servers in that same period. And yes out of the 5 matches you picked he was under par in 3 of them due to injury or mono and a 4rth one was so windy that it prevented him to break Roddick at ease. The fact he created only one single BP opportunity in 5 sets v Tsonga shoudl have alerted you that there was something wrong with his mouvement. Djoko managed to break Tsonga at will teh following match. So yes if you are considering an injured Federer v Federer 2006 you could be right but a better sense of obvsrvation could lead you to different results.

And finally you are wrong on your numbers cause Fed broke Nadal 3 times in 07, once in 08 (despite 13 opportunities - you have got to return well to create them), so that makes 7 breaks not 5.

So his baseline game on grass went down while on HC indoors or clay, it's great?!?! Could that be a clue for injuries maybe?

But let's face it, after your very first post on this thread, you find yourself with no chance to change your view without losing face.

The fact you have come back 10 times since despite saying you won't proves you are trying to convince yourself, not me.

Unlike you I am still open to the idea that he was better in 2006...but I have not seen enough convincing evidence to say so.

The Wimbledon final of 2008 I didn't think Federer was returning poorly at all. Mixed in with Nadal being to soak up the Federer attack, Federer was returning a Nadal serve which wasn't barely above 110mph which made it more difficult for Federer in his game to attack the serve immediately. Also 2009 I think that is a wild suggestion based on the fact that Federer only broke the Roddick serve once given that Roddick flat out gave the best performance in his career in that Slam and the final itself.

Whatever anyone wants to say about Roddick, it is an immutable law of the Universe that Federer completely owns Roddick. He has lost twice; once of a final set tb early on, and once in 2008 when Federer was losing to more or less everybody because of his illness (Hell, he even lost to James Blake at the Olympics that year!!!!!!).

Federers returing at the 2009 W final was awful. I don't care if Roddick had the day of his life there's no way Federer returning could fail to break serve even once until Roddick was unable to walk briskly. No way.

Tenez wrote:So his baseline game on grass went down while on HC indoors or clay, it's great?!?! Could that be a clue for injuries maybe?

But let's face it, after your very first post on this thread, you find yourself with no chance to change your view without losing face.

The fact you have come back 10 times since despite saying you won't proves you are trying to convince yourself, not me.

This has nothing to do with saving face or trying to convince myself.

I believe that Federer was a better player in 2006 and I've argued my case. Whether you choose to agree or not is your prerogative.

All you've done is taken odd matches here and there as evidence that Federer is a better player than he used to be, whilst ignoring the bulk of information which indicates that his performances have been deteriorating. For example, you'll cite Wilander as a pundit who thinks Federer is better than he used to be but ignore all the other pundits who believe the contrary. As usual very selective reasoning on your part. Besides, it is quite clear, despite your protestations, that you too have already made up your mind and had done so from the moment you made this post. Infact you were arguing the same thing in other threads before you decided to write this post.

The only reason I came back and re-posted was because I hadn't expected this thread to continue for so long.

In any case, I think it's a case of agree to disagree.



emancipator

No-one is denying that Federer can on occasion play up to his old standard, maybe even for a few matches in a row, but to state that overall he is a better player is a little bit far-fetched. The level of play is not measured over one match or even one tournament, it is measured over the majority of the season.

Here are some stats:

From 04-07 Fed won 42 titles and lost 24 matches (average 10.5 titles/yr and 6 matches lost/season)

From 08-11, 16 titles and 52 matches lost.

No amount of newer/tougher competiton (He's hardly played Nadal in the last three years, and only started losing regularly to Novak this year) or injuries (as if Roger never had injuries prior to 08) can account for this disparity.

bogbrush wrote:Federers returing at the 2009 W final was awful. I don't care if Roddick had the day of his life there's no way Federer returning could fail to break serve even once until Roddick was unable to walk briskly. No way.

Fine! Federer returned badly on that 14th of July 2009. But he returned so well just a couple of days before v Karlo and Haas and so well after that. We can;t draw a conclusion on Federer's poor returning on a single day that year!

emancipator wrote:Here are some stats:

From 04-07 Fed won 42 titles and lost 24 matches (average 10.5 titles/yr and 6 matches lost/season)

From 08-11, 16 titles and 52 matches lost.

Using stats v a variable such as competitive players doesn't make sense at all.

Use the same stats v Nadal and you'll see that 07 is actually better than 06.
Use those stats v Djoko in 2011 and you might notice that Federer has "got younger and more competitive" as the year went by: 2 straight losses in the first 6 months and almost 2 wins in the last 6 months.

You simply cannot use stats v a variable such as the level of tennis across 5 years. I guess by your reasoning you must believe that Super Nadal of 2010 has got older too over Xmas 2010!

The reason I believe age hasn't intervened yet in his peak forms is that I know too well that when you age you can;t come back in a new body, not even for one day. So if he had aged and lost pace and reactions he woudl not be able to play like does at times.

However I agree that his form days need to be spread a bit more than in the past. Especially since the physicality of tennis has gone 3 folds at the top since the arrival of Nadal, Djoko and Murray.

So if your only point of reference is the number of matches won in those 2 different period, then no surprise you think that way.

bogbrush wrote:Whatever anyone wants to say about Roddick, it is an immutable law of the Universe that Federer completely owns Roddick. He has lost twice; once of a final set tb early on, and once in 2008 when Federer was losing to more or less everybody because of his illness (Hell, he even lost to James Blake at the Olympics that year!!!!!!).

Federers returing at the 2009 W final was awful. I don't care if Roddick had the day of his life there's no way Federer returning could fail to break serve even once until Roddick was unable to walk briskly. No way.

Regardless Federer wasn't returning poorly and I don't care about the laws of the universe which mean jackshit on a tennis court.

Roddick blitzed Federer. Hell Federer could've even had a racquet the size of a the sun and still not got Roddick's serve back so don't do the guy in and claim Federer was poor on that day because that was not the case!

legendkillar wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Whatever anyone wants to say about Roddick, it is an immutable law of the Universe that Federer completely owns Roddick. He has lost twice; once of a final set tb early on, and once in 2008 when Federer was losing to more or less everybody because of his illness (Hell, he even lost to James Blake at the Olympics that year!!!!!!).

Federers returing at the 2009 W final was awful. I don't care if Roddick had the day of his life there's no way Federer returning could fail to break serve even once until Roddick was unable to walk briskly. No way.

Regardless Federer wasn't returning poorly and I don't care about the laws of the universe which mean jackshit on a tennis court.

Roddick blitzed Federer. Hell Federer could've even had a racquet the size of a the sun and still not got Roddick's serve back so don't do the guy in and claim Federer was poor on that day because that was not the case!

That's what I call a real Roddick fan!

To me Federer played badly for 2 reasons that day (not talking about the returning):

1 - It was very windy (that a fact and a clear leveler)
2 - Federer knew that he coudl only lose this match cause as BB said, he owns Roddick so it was a special match where he tried to keep the ball in court cause of teh wind (remember he lost a few key BPs at the beginning that went out due to the windy conds) and that built up some pressure as the match went on and for a very occasion we coudl really see the pressure on Federer.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Whatever anyone wants to say about Roddick, it is an immutable law of the Universe that Federer completely owns Roddick. He has lost twice; once of a final set tb early on, and once in 2008 when Federer was losing to more or less everybody because of his illness (Hell, he even lost to James Blake at the Olympics that year!!!!!!).

Federers returing at the 2009 W final was awful. I don't care if Roddick had the day of his life there's no way Federer returning could fail to break serve even once until Roddick was unable to walk briskly. No way.

Regardless Federer wasn't returning poorly and I don't care about the laws of the universe which mean jackshit on a tennis court.

Roddick blitzed Federer. Hell Federer could've even had a racquet the size of a the sun and still not got Roddick's serve back so don't do the guy in and claim Federer was poor on that day because that was not the case!

That's what I call a real Roddick fan!

To me Federer played badly for 2 reasons that day (not talking about the returning):

1 - It was very windy (that a fact and a clear leveler)
2 - Federer knew that he coudl only lose this match cause as BB said, he owns Roddick so it was a special match where he tried to keep the ball in court cause of teh wind (remember he lost a few key BPs at the beginning that went out due to the windy conds) and that built up some pressure as the match went on and for a very occasion we coudl really see the pressure on Federer.

I thought Roddick played as well during Wimbledon 2009 as I'd seen him play for years, but I also thought Federer played a relatively poor and tentative/conservative final. It's such a one-off that don't think that it's a good match for the basis of a Judgment as to their respective merits over time.

More importantly, God what a boring match it was. For me the boredom of waiting for the coup de grace wrung all the tension out of it, although I quite appreciate that was not the case for the participants.

The thing is Tenez Roddick played his one and only brilliant tournament and came up empty handed. Roddick dropped 15lbs and came down to his weight when he won the US Open in 2003. Now that is no coincidence that it then correlated him being closer to Federer for the first time in a Slam final. Roddick when in trouble on his serve went to the body or the BH of Federer and it worked. Now no-one with even with the tennis touch of god could've done anything about that relentless serving.

Roddick had his day and failed and since then really has only gone downhill from there on and Federer has been a constant in the top 2 only to recently dipped in form. Though that is not to say that Federer has been completely poor, more to the fact that Djokovic and Nadal had improved tremendousley. Players will have their peak, no question and when players plato they can stay at one level or fall daramtically. Federer has been fortunate enough to stay in the top 4 for ages. Question is now can someone like Nadal do the same next year? As you mentioned previously like with Soderling who is falling drastically, though suffering Mono.

Tenez wrote:

emancipator wrote:Here are some stats:

From 04-07 Fed won 42 titles and lost 24 matches (average 10.5 titles/yr and 6 matches lost/season)

From 08-11, 16 titles and 52 matches lost.

Using stats v a variable such as competitive players doesn't make sense at all.

Use the same stats v Nadal and you'll see that 07 is actually better than 06.
Use those stats v Djoko in 2011 and you might notice that Federer has "got younger and more competitive" as the year went by: 2 straight losses in the first 6 months and almost 2 wins in the last 6 months.

You simply cannot use stats v a variable such as the level of tennis across 5 years. I guess by your reasoning you must believe that Super Nadal of 2010 has got older too over Xmas 2010!

The reason I believe age hasn't intervened yet in his peak forms is that I know too well that when you age you can;t come back in a new body, not even for one day. So if he had aged and lost pace and reactions he woudl not be able to play like does at times.

However I agree that his form days need to be spread a bit more than in the past. Especially since the physicality of tennis has gone 3 folds at the top since the arrival of Nadal, Djoko and Murray.

So if your only point of reference is the number of matches won in those 2 different period, then no surprise you think that way.

If the numbers were even slightly close then I could understand your point of view. However they are not. Your usage of 'competitive players' as a barometer is completely subjective. Likewise, the assertion that he hits his BH better than he used to is once again completely subjective (Infact I'm sure that if we were to look at the UE stats for his matches we'd see that they have been increasing over the years). Therefore in such cases it is better to rely on stats when available. I agree that they don't provide the entire picture but, like I've already mentioned, no amount of subjective analyses can explain away such a huge statistical difference in performance.

With regards to the age issue, of course one can turn back the clock for a few hours or even days. It may be that a 30 year old on one day feels physically very good: rested, injury free, mentally confident, relaxed etc, and thus plays as well as he can. However, on most days he doesn't feel as well as he used to when he was younger and thus plays less well on average. This is the age factor. The effects of age are cumulative but liable to waver up and down on certain days (I can't believe I'm even explaining this) so in essence as you age you have more bad days than good ones.



emancipator

When Jose Higueras was Federer's coach, the drop shot became a potent weapon for Federer.

On Grass - https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Ducrdizvo54

On Clay - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B2vABsxUcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqDxPtbmAJk

On Hard Court - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmocu3lmxr8


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/195466-14-slam-wins-subtle-higueras-changes-help-roger-federer-to-the-pinnacle


With Annacone, some attacking S&V was brought back. http://www.tennischannel.com/news/NewsDetails.aspx?newsid=7884

And how close is Nadal/Djoko's H2H pre-2011 to 2011? 17/7 and 0/6 respectively.

Nadal must have aged by 10 years over Xmas 2010.

McEnroe won everything in 84, nothing after. And again, not much to do with age. Almost all down to the new generation that learnt to play with bigger frames whacking the ball giving him a hard time to control his push shots an half volleys.

In my view you are overlooking the importance of the opposition and the evolution of the game (pace, strings, diets, etc..).

The difference essentially between Federer 06 and Fed 11 is that nowadays his "unplayable" FH actually comes back. That's all it takes!

emancipator wrote:With regards to the age issue, of course one can turn back the clock for a few hours or even days. It may be that a 30 year old on one day feels physically very good: rested, injury free, mentally confident, relaxed etc, and thus plays as well as he can.

A good day... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOLrAYaLZ4Q

emancipator wrote:However, on most days he doesn't feel as well as he used to when he was younger and thus plays less well on average. This is the age factor. The effects of age are cumulative but liable to waver up and down on certain days (I can't believe I'm even explaining this) so in essence as you age you have more bad days than good ones.

A bad day... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqpAG46aaQ

Tenez wrote:And how close is Nadal/Djoko's H2H pre-2011 to 2011? 17/7 and 0/6 respectively.

Nadal must have aged by 10 years over Xmas 2010.

McEnroe won everything in 84, nothing after. And again, not much to do with age. Almost all down to the new generation that learnt to play with bigger frames whacking the ball giving him a hard time to control his push shots an half volleys.

In my view you are overlooking the importance of the opposition and the evolution of the game (pace, strings, diets, etc..).

The difference essentially between Federer 06 and Fed 11 is that nowadays his "unplayable" FH actually comes back. That's all it takes!

The example of Nadal/djokovic has no relevance to the idea of a player's level deteriorating with age. Clearly this is a case of Novak improving over a short period of time. The improvement didn't have to be huge because he has always been a tough matchup for Nadal, especially on HC's. The H2H prior to this year was clearly misleading. Thus a slight improvement in Novak's game has now given him the edge in this rivalry; age is not a big issue in this case.

With RF it is a different case as we are gauging performance over several years. The fact that his performances have steadily been declining over several years shows that it is very much an age related phenomenon.

I understand that technological changes have some impact but they impact all players, not just Federer. Besides I'm not aware of any earth shattering changes that have taken place in the last four years. Let's also not forget that federer would be one of the beneficiary's of any advances in technology, nutrition, training techniques etc, since he can afford the best consultation in all of these areas. Most players outside of the top twenty don't have that luxury.



emancipator

If you've read Agassi's Auto you'll recall the numerous times Agassi referred to his back and how it was better on some days compared to others, but over time it deteriorated moreso and eventually he retired because of this chronic back problem.

Roger himself just mentioned (at Bercy, I think) that when he was 17 he'd jump up and down once and he'd be ready to play, when he was 25 he'd hit for five minutes to warm up, now he said he needs to hit for 25 minutes before he is ready to play.

emancipator wrote:
Thus a slight improvement in Novak's game has now given him the edge in this rivalry

There you go. That's all it takes. The fact is without Djoko and Nadal improving and Tsonga reaching maturity for that matter, Federer coudl have won 4 slams this year and we woudl not be discussing whether he is down physically or not. The fact is DJoko improved, Nadal improved and Murray improved and it seems Federer improved more tha Nadal and Murray...according to the benchmark that is now Djokovic!

With RF it is a different case as we are gauging performance over several years. The fact that his performances have steadily been declining over several years shows that it is very much an age related phenomenon.

I'll concede 2008 for obvious reasons though already his display in USO 08 was pretty good. I have seen him play better in some 2009 and 2010 matches than I ever have in 2006.

I

understand that technological changes have some impact but they impact all players, not just Federer. Besides I'm not aware of any earth shattering changes that have taken place in the last four years.

Wrong they impact old players more who have learnt their game with old technologies. The slower of the courts is going to give an edge to those who retriev, etc.. etc... Look at Federer's peers...they all went down the ranking bar Ferrer who has a clay, topspin game with an amazing fitness! In his case teh change of conds and technology helps him, for all the others who played serve and volley or were taking the ball early for short rallies have gone down...bar Federer because of his amazing skills.

emancipator wrote:If you've read Agassi's Auto you'll recall the numerous times Agassi referred to his back and how it was better on some days compared to others, but over time it deteriorated moreso and eventually he retired because of this chronic back problem.

You mean Agassi, the player who played better after 30? Yes I agree with him. And be confident that I will also be surprised if I see Federer playing better at 35 than at 30.

Roger himself just mentioned (at Bercy, I think) that when he was 17 he'd jump up and down once and he'd be ready to play, when he was 25 he'd hit for five minutes to warm up, now he said he needs to hit for 25 minutes before he is ready to play.

Yes and again he said at Bercy that he is fitter now than then....so what to think?

After reading Agassi's book I was amazed with the difficulty physically he was suffering. Immense and how he was never told by the doctors the after effects the game to have on his back is the more startling.

In 2006 he was much better, it was just a matter of time before he hit a winner off his forehand, certainly far more potent than nowadays.

emancipator wrote:

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With regards to the age issue, of course one can turn back the clock for a few hours or even days. It may be that a 30 year old on one day feels physically very good: rested, injury free, mentally confident, relaxed etc, and thus plays as well as he can. However, on most days he doesn't feel as well as he used to when he was younger and thus plays less well on average. This is the age factor. The effects of age are cumulative but liable to waver up and down on certain days (I can't believe I'm even explaining this) so in essence as you age you have more bad days than good ones.



emancipator

Having read the many contributions on this thread, the positive plethora of statistics, comparisons and thesis-like analysis of technique..... this one paragraph by emancipator is for me the most obvious and succinct explanation as to why it is simply not feasible that Federer could be expected to perform in 2011 at a higher standard and/or level of consistency than he did in 2006

An old interview from 2009...

"I believe he can win a 17th or 18th Grand Slam title before he calls it a day. He will be able to play at the top level at least until he is 30 years old."

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Roger_Federer/Analysis/Working_with_Federer_was_not_always_easy.html?cid=62100

Thanks to Curto.

I think Federer's win over Nole at RG meant the world to him.
Equally his loss at USO was absolutely devastating.
However, I feel he's still alive and this win in Paris has revived that belief a bit.

At this stage in Federer's career, once the fine silver cord gets broken, it will be the end.

Tennis and fitness side of the desire are still under control and I believe can be under control for another 2-3 years.

lags72 wrote:

emancipator wrote:

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With regards to the age issue, of course one can turn back the clock for a few hours or even days. It may be that a 30 year old on one day feels physically very good: rested, injury free, mentally confident, relaxed etc, and thus plays as well as he can. However, on most days he doesn't feel as well as he used to when he was younger and thus plays less well on average. This is the age factor. The effects of age are cumulative but liable to waver up and down on certain days (I can't believe I'm even explaining this) so in essence as you age you have more bad days than good ones.



emancipator

Having read the many contributions on this thread, the positive plethora of statistics, comparisons and thesis-like analysis of technique..... this one paragraph by emancipator is for me the most obvious and succinct explanation as to why it is simply not feasible that Federer could be expected to perform in 2011 at a higher standard and/or level of consistency than he did in 2006

Yes but that is quite a different statement than what Emancipator gave in his fist reply, so it's good to see he seems to have changed his view since his first post here.

My point is that on those days, he has the 2006 body and reactions plus his experience, better timing, more economical game, which makes him a more complete player now. However I still disagree that those days of form are rare. In my view he makes them rare to preserve energy in a more gruelling tour than 2006 was.
Fact is he played very well in slams almost beating the number 1 twice. and won 2 tournaments he really wanted to win. We can;t expect to have 30yo Federer chasing all the TMS nowadays cause like all champs before him he wants to focus on slams. And in slams finals, We don;t have the likes of Gonzos, Baghdatis, gentle Roddick, anymore. Otherwise you would see him win as much as in 2006. As simple as that.

Again, I am not saying those guys were poor, just that they did not take much energy out of Federer. Nowadays you cannot win without sweat.