Scotland to the airport or onwards?

Looks like Scotland will be heading home then, unless by some miracle we beat England and the Georgins do us a massive favour. I ain't seen many miracles as of late.

We can debate the gact Barnes had a shocker, the weather was terrible and Robinson may have made some poor substitutions. Or we could accept the fact that the Scottish players are simply not as good as we think or hope they are.

The stats post that one of my fellow Scottish posters put up earlier on said it all. Scotlad spent as near as damn it a fifth of the match inside the Argentine 22 and failed to score a try. Alarm bells should have been ringing when we could not rout the Romanians. Loss after loss, and game after game Scotland's prolific club level scorers can't seem to do it in the navy blue. Why? It's easy to blame Parks or Morrison or dingle others out for blame but even our work horse forwards can't seem to get across the line to score.

Frankly it's pretty depressing, for the last 5 years it's been the same problem. We have try scoring / play making players (especialy at Edinburgh) who can't seem to oust the one dimensional players like Morrison and Parks. Townsend has to go to be honest. His coat was on a pretty shoogley peg before the RWC and if he keeps his job after this disasterous RWC we'll be in dire straights in the 6N.

Heads will have to roll and Robinson is under the risk of having the poorest performing Scotland team in RWC history. Beating England will be enough to salvage some pride but not enough to salvage our world cup progress.

Is this not really just a case of Scotland having fewer professional players than most countries and in my opinion they do very well with what resouces they have.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Looks like Scotland will be heading home then, unless by some miracle we beat England and the Georgins do us a massive favour. I ain't seen many miracles as of late.

Maybe Murray's well publicized decision not to play today will help them out in the miracle stakes

"We have try scoring / play making players (especialy at Edinburgh) who can't seem to oust the one dimensional players like Morrison and Parks."


Really? Who? I think Edinburgh and Glasgow performances at the weekend would hardly back that up. Players need to make the WC squad on merit, not promise.

funnyExiledScot wrote:"We have try scoring / play making players (especialy at Edinburgh) who can't seem to oust the one dimensional players like Morrison and Parks."


Really? Who? I think Edinburgh and Glasgow performances at the weekend would hardly back that up. Players need to make the WC squad on merit, not promise.

So you are happy to plod along with Morrison who hasn't really archived any more or any less than cairns or king. Frankly I would rather try something differant and lose rather than sticking to something that hasn't worked in the first place.

Absolutely not happy to plod along. I just don't think we have options at 12 at the moment better than Morrison and S Lamont.

Cairns is a 13, not guaranteed of his place at Edinburgh. King is as average as Morrison.

My suggestion would be to use Jackson at 12 for Glasgow, and Weir at 10. But let's take a look at club level rather than international level. In the meantime, not ideal, but I'd rather have Lamont at 12 than Morrison.

biltongbek wrote:Is this not really just a case of Scotland having fewer professional players than most countries and in my opinion they do very well with what resouces they have.

With all due respect Biltong, that is just an excuse that has been used to play down our losses for years now. We can sit back and say "its alright, who cares that were seriously losing our claim of being a top nation due to the indefensible lack of ability to perform a fundamental part of the game which these players are paid to play", or we can get angry and say that THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Sorry mate, just asking.

I was gutted for Scotland today.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Absolutely not happy to plod along. I just don't think we have options at 12 at the moment better than Morrison and S Lamont.

Cairns is a 13, not guaranteed of his place at Edinburgh. King is as average as Morrison.

My suggestion would be to use Jackson at 12 for Glasgow, and Weir at 10. But let's take a look at club level rather than international level. In the meantime, not ideal, but I'd rather have Lamont at 12 than Morrison.

Agreed. We need to do something though. I am no longer content to be the laughing stock of northern hemisphere rugby.

I was gutted today for Scotland but not suprised.
they always talk themselves up, and always disappoint. they put a good game together in 2010 against Wales, though still lost after dominating for 78 minutes, and then said we'll see you in Murrayfield next year, where upon Wales who were awful still won by an 18 point margin!
I wont even go into 2005 when we were 43-3 up at the start of the second half!

The bottom line is Scotland are headed for oblivion, look at the young players Wales, Ireland, France and England are producing and look at the shambles the 2 Scottish professional teams are.

I will say what I always say... Wales have won 8 of the last 9 games between our countries, Wales V Scotland should be a 50/50 game, throught out history we should win in Cardiff but lose away, yet these days Scotland is the closest thing Wales has to an easy game.

The bottom line is the SRU is a shambles and has mismanaged the game to such a degree, that they will be lucky if they ever get pairity with Wales and Ireland again on a consistent level. They are falling further behind all the time.

Scotland are out and are going home, sorry to say, they will never get pairity with this English pack. They blew it against Argentina and will deservedly go home for it.

AlynDavies wrote:Scotland are out and are going home, sorry to say, they will never get pairity with this English pack. They blew it against Argentina and will deservedly go home for it.

Despite stating facts, a little tact wouldn't go amiss.

biltongbek wrote:Sorry mate, just asking.

maybe came across a bit harsh, i wasnt having a go.

bad luck scots, dont give up, just beat england by 50+ points and maybe...

it was a good match to watch as a neutral and tbf it was a quality try from the argentinian

Well I for one would never write the Scots off against England, but it all depends on how long Scotland can stay in the game, I'm sorry to say that if England get a couple of early scores it could be a rout.

Alan is right (if a little blunt), there have been a litany of screw-ups in Scottish rugby at the administration level and it is there wholesale changes will have to be made to stop this slump.

More money has to be put into the development process to bring young talent through the system, the coaching staff need to be shook up and replaced almost entirely and some new faces have to be given a blooding at Test level.

That said, Barnes really did have his worst game for a long, long time and I know you boys wouldn't want to appear to be whingeing, so I'll do it for you. If he had been in the proper position for the DG attempt, Conteponi would have been pinged for offside and Scotland would be in the QF. It was such a seminal moment in the game, the DG attempt was as obvious as it could be and he should have been looking.

An epic fail even by Barnes' standards, it's all well and good saying refs are only human, but that was a basic error any ref should be ashamed of, to think that it will probably cost some people their jobs makes it even more unforgiveable.

Keep your chins up fellas, I think this will prove to be the bottom for Scotland and the climb back will begin after the WC.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Is this not really just a case of Scotland having fewer professional players than most countries and in my opinion they do very well with what resouces they have.

With all due respect Biltong, that is just an excuse that has been used to play down our losses for years now. We can sit back and say "its alright, who cares that were seriously losing our claim of being a top nation due to the indefensible lack of ability to perform a fundamental part of the game which these players are paid to play", or we can get angry and say that THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I don't think you two are in much of a disagreement at all.

It is true that Scotland's Rugby player numbers are smaller. Also resources are more scarce. But it's also true this cannot continue. It's bad for Scottich Rugby and bad for Rugby in general. Imperialbigdave is absolutely right: This is not good enough. To me, there is no short term fix. The answer appears to me to lie directly with the mismanagement by the SRU. The Rugby improvement has to start at the grass roots, build the numbers, grow the sport. From what I see, their olde boys club makes the RFU appear to be a modern, open, slick running organisation.

Boys, Scotland are not out. They will come out all guns blazing v Eng. All the hone mations raise their game for Eng and there is so much riding on it that I wouldn't write them off just yet. Play to your strenghts, go for field pos and kick, kick kick again, attack English lineout. Bully the English forwards in the way only a riled up Scottish pack can. Cut out the errors and take your chances. it is time to man up on the field, you've nothing to lose

Argentina are a powerful and well organised side and Scotland just didn't have the rub today - I don't think such a -ve post-mortem is necessary - The Scots have the makings of a very good side and I think the wet weather didn't help them today as they were looking to move it well early on. Definite ofside for the drop goal but that's the rub.

You know everyone wrinting off Scotland is a bit unfair, I think the Argentinians will get the bonus win against Georgia. So Scotland just have to win against England to go through surely? If they deny them the losing bonus England could still go out

honestly in a game like this espescially if its wet, England could easily come unstuck.

God I am depressed, stayed up all night, Beer Pizza Coffee Beer "3 match special", then watched us blow it.

First of all we lost the match because of our failings not something the officials missed.

For me we lost this match before we got on the pitch. for all the possession for all the territory only Evans looked like he was attempting something different. We were very one dimensional, we made too many errors full stop.

1. We needed Ansbro and Schlong in the centre.
2. We needed Rory at FB.
3. We needed Rennie at the breakdown, as lost it here so many times.

I felt that if we had selected these to START then we might have come away with it.

There must be some positives surely.............. please tell me there are some positives folks.

Positives
1. Jackson had his best game to date
2. We fronted up and took the play to Argentina, and gave them their hardest game todate (including England)
3. We haven't played that well in all three matches but still could have won them all.
4. We still have a chance (ok not a great chance.... but still)

Now I am going to get hammered

Oh yes, before I forget.............. any of the WUMs who stated that Contepomi was not officially or marginally offside please take a tablet or two, I am not making an excuse that it would have made a difference but he was 3-4 yards offside.......... he was so close to Parks that he had to change his stance and take a punt on his left foot.

Lets have a drink

I honestly feel that Scotland improved under Robinson but they have become stagnate again. Scotland can still beat England (although i doubt that will happen) but they just dont have the points difference to proceed.

Is this the end of Robinson and Townsend?

FHF - My biggest conern for Scotland was the amount of turnover ball they lost in the first 30 minutes - they were outmuscled and out thought at the breakdown but still could have won - they just turned over so much ball - I found it staggering.

That RubyGuby was my biggest disappointment, Barclay was very poor in that area of play

flyhalffactory wrote:God I am depressed, stayed up all night, Beer Pizza Coffee Beer "3 match special", then watched us blow it.

First of all we lost the match because of our failings not something the officials missed.

For me we lost this match before we got on the pitch. for all the possession for all the territory only Evans looked like he was attempting something different. We were very one dimensional, we made too many errors full stop.

1. We needed Ansbro and Schlong in the centre.
2. We needed Rory at FB.
3. We needed Rennie at the breakdown, as lost it here so many times.

I felt that if we had selected these to START then we might have come away with it.

There must be some positives surely.............. please tell me there are some positives folks.

Positives
1. Jackson had his best game to date
2. We fronted up and took the play to Argentina, and gave them their hardest game todate (including England)
3. We haven't played that well in all three matches but still could have won them all.
4. We still have a chance (ok not a great chance.... but still)

Now I am going to get hammered

Oh yes, before I forget.............. any of the WUMs who stated that Contepomi was not officially or marginally offside please take a tablet or two, I am not making an excuse that it would have made a difference but he was 3-4 yards offside.......... he was so close to Parks that he had to change his stance and take a punt on his left foot.

Lets have a drink

Excellent riposte, from a hard-earned Believer.

Also, for those calling for Robbo to be replaced.. are ye phhoking mad or what? He is the best thing about Scottish rugby right now. Get rid of the inept clowns above him. In fact, let him pick their replacements. They are a disgrace. Like the IRFU were - for near a 100 years. Since been rooted out and replaced by Pros. (nowhere near perfect, but so much better)

That's yer problem right there. What has not happened at Club level has permeated its way into the International side. Young talent let go to England and abroad. A useless marketing structure. No long-term plan to improve it. Russia probably have a better structure in place than the SRU.

Sorry if I've overstepped the mark. I'm Irish and it still pishes me off. Been to see Leinster a few times at Murrayfield. 2/3000 people in a vast cavern. Most of them from Leinster. WTF is that all about?

Then again, I remember Scottish Rugby at its Zenith. Call for change at the Top. Nay - demand it.

Robbo has taken the talent he has at his disposal, as far as he can - in the time he had to do it in. I really believe that. Look what he did for Edinburgh in his time there. Look where they are now. Its sad.

Scottish Rugby needs to re-build from the bottom up and with the right men at the Top, to initiate a long-term plan. A plan to bring it back to where it should be, on the World stage.

Rant over.

+1

eirebilly wrote:I honestly feel that Scotland improved under Robinson but they have become stagnate again. Scotland can still beat England (although i doubt that will happen) but they just dont have the points difference to proceed.

If they can beat england by 8 they go through on the head to head win if argentina also get a bonus point win (quite possible)
If Scotland get a bonus point win they go through (fairly unlikely)
If argentina dont win and scotland win or draw scotland go through (unlikely)


Scotlands points difference isnt the big concern, its beating england thats the problem. The only time it comes into the equation is if scotland and argentina win without anyone getting a bonus point....again this relies on scotland winning.

Scotland's biggest issue for the last while has been their inability to score tries. As we can see in these 23 games we have scored a meagre 20 tries, this works out at less than a try per game (or 0.86 of a try a game), clearly not acceptable. Furthermore of these 20 tries, 10 were scored by backs, 10 by forwards. So as has already been pointed out, our backs aren't setting the heather on fire.

As you can see from below this compares very badly to out the other top ten nations.

New Zealand (113 tries in last last 27 games) average = 4 tries per game

Australia (87 tries in last 28 games) average = 3 tries per game

South Africa (64 tries in last 24 games) average = 2 tries per game

England (51 tries in last 25 games) average = 2 tries per game

France (53 tries in last 23 games) average = 2 tries per game

Ireland (55 tries in last 26 games) average = 2 tries per game

Argentina (50 tries in past 17) average = 2 tries per game

Wales (43 in last 27 games) average = 1 try per game

Italy (33 tries in last 22 games) average = 1 try per game

As a passionate Englishman....i for one would NEVER call it a forgone conclusion against the Auld Enemy.

Make no mistakes they will be so fired up it will be a ferocious game.

If England go out expecting a stroll...then THEY will be the ones going home!

I would say keep Robbo, but Townsend has to shoulder a good chunk of the blame and fall on his sword. Why the SRU though employing an untried and untested person to coach our backs at international level is a mystery to me.

Townsend is a legend of Scottish rugby but he's not a coach.

Secondly we need real alternatives in the backs. We have a strong back 3 but inside is either poor or playing out of position and being asked to improvise.

I just think Scotland are lacking leadership and direction on the pitch. Scotland had numerous opportunities to put this game away and they fluffed them all. Two butchered overlaps wasted with miss passes and the drop goal set up was a shambles.

There's plenty of good players out wide like Lamont, Evans (who had a great game), Danielli etc. and a strong pack of forwards.

I think the halfpacks are a big weakness. There just is no composure or game management at 9 and 10 no matter who Scotland select there. Therefore the outside backs are not getting the ball in space. Patterson is a weak link in attack at full back too, he gets isolated and turned over too easily and lacks penetraton when hitting the line.

I don't think it will take a miracle to beat England just a massive performance. Scotland have shown the ability to beat the best sides when they get the tactics and execution right but too often they are getting them wrong and I think this is down to the players and not the coaches.

Thoroughly thoroughly depressing.

It's been a long long time since I've been in a position where thinking about a Scotland game has made me so angry.

Players weren't good enough on the day. The game was there and they @rsed it up.

Robinson and his 'tactical' substitutions?? JUST LEAVE THE TEAM ALONE!!!

Barnes was awful but he's no worse than many of the other ref's so all teams get dodgy decisions against at some point.

We are out, it's simple.

And to be honest, if this failing means a massive restructure throughout the game, then I'm all for the boys getting on the plane today.

Casualties should be:

SRU Board
Townsend
Scrummage coach (forget his name)

Players:

Morrison
Parks
Paterson (good servant but time is up)
Blair

I suppose a positive from this (after watching NZ v France) is that we are going to be spared an absolute tonking against the AB's!!!

Think I'll spend an extra two hours with the family next weekend instead of getting wound up watching yet again, another pile of inept jobby.

Even as an Englishman, seeing the Scottish game in such a state is depressing. The SRU has to change and start putting the development of the game ahead of everything else. When you think about the proud history of Scottish rugby it doesn't make sense that the era of professional rugby could have been so badly managed.

Having said that, I am not taking the England game as a nailed on win. Too often an unfancied Scotland has put the boot in and they could still do it again.

aitchw wrote:Even as an Englishman, seeing the Scottish game in such a state is depressing.

I think people are loosing the run of themselves here. England just about scraped past Argentina as well and many people think they are title contenders.

There is a fine margin between winning and losing and Scotland were a drop goal or a tackle away from beating Argentina by a similar margin to England.

It does look bleak for Scotland in terms of this RWC but theres no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Argentina are no mugs and it is a horrible pool. A win against England next week and things could look a lot brighter.

Robbinson is fine where he is. Its Townsends head that must roll. what is he bringing to this team? clearly not intelligent attack, thats for sure.

Scrap the regions....

Bring back the clubs and a strong league - Melrose, Jedforrest, Boroughmuir...

Get the borders rugby back again being influential in Scottish rugby!

Watch it improve!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Scrap the regions....

Bring back the clubs and a strong league - Melrose, Jedforrest, Boroughmuir...

Get the borders rugby back again being influential in Scottish rugby!

Watch it improve!

It won't really imrpove though. The clubs would gain nothing by being self contained, they need to play the likes of the Ospreys, Leinster and Munster in the ML to improved. Money just needs to be spent on marketing the pro teams so they get a better following.

As an Englishman, I'd have preferred Scotland to win, as then they's definitely be through - I still think a fired up Scots team with something to play for will cause England a lot of headaches.

However, it must be truly depressing to be having the same discussions about your team as seem to have been going on for most of a decade - good pack of forwards and able to put in a good defensive effort, but totally unable to construct anything through the midfield backs. Just how long have you been looking for quality players in the 10-12-13 positions?

Two professional sides is not sufficient, and you definitely need to reignite enthusiasm for the game in the borders, otherwise the Scotland national side will just continue to wither.

GLove39 wrote:Scotland's biggest issue for the last while has been their inability to score tries. As we can see in these 23 games we have scored a meagre 20 tries, this works out at less than a try per game (or 0.86 of a try a game), clearly not acceptable. Furthermore of these 20 tries, 10 were scored by backs, 10 by forwards. So as has already been pointed out, our backs aren't setting the heather on fire.

As you can see from below this compares very badly to out the other top ten nations.

New Zealand (113 tries in last last 27 games) average = 4 tries per game

Australia (87 tries in last 28 games) average = 3 tries per game

South Africa (64 tries in last 24 games) average = 2 tries per game

England (51 tries in last 25 games) average = 2 tries per game

France (53 tries in last 23 games) average = 2 tries per game

Ireland (55 tries in last 26 games) average = 2 tries per game

Argentina (50 tries in past 17) average = 2 tries per game

Wales (43 in last 27 games) average = 1 try per game = Adjust to 55 trys in 28 games Ave. moves to 2 per game

Italy (33 tries in last 22 games) average = 1 try per game

Just updating

In the end maybe its fate for Scotland to be knocked out? Then there will be a clear NH and SH side of the knockout stage.

dummy_half wrote:However, it must be truly depressing to be having the same discussions about your team as seem to have been going on for most of a decade - good pack of forwards and able to put in a good defensive effort, but totally unable to construct anything through the midfield backs. Just how long have you been looking for quality players in the 10-12-13 positions?

Two professional sides is not sufficient, and you definitely need to reignite enthusiasm for the game in the borders, otherwise the Scotland national side will just continue to wither.

It is depressing! I'd say it's more than just the 10/12 channel that is causing us problems though. Our backs were bossed at the breakdown, and our forwards weren't working out wide with them. There's no point in spinning the ball away from your forwards if you're going to leave NDL or Evans playing one out rugby on the touchline against Puma (or English or AB) backs. It just makes every break down a mad scrap for the ball. If you're going to play side to side you need forwards across the park, or at least have backs who are competent at the breakdown, otherwise you'll just get turned over. I thought Barclay and Strokosch needed to have better games, but so did Morrison and S Lamont. They were the big guys in the backs given the job of ensuring continuity, so when NDL or Evans were tackled, they were there to ensure that the Argentina backs were cleared off the ball. Ledesma and Roncero probably turned over more ball than Strokosch and Barclay.

Yes, we need to identify a 10/12 combination that can create chances. I don't mean just ship the ball sideways, I mean hold up defences and put players into space. There wasn't enough variety in our play, not enough chips and grubbers (when Max Evans tried to chip the flat Puma defence it worked, so why not replicate it) and not enough use of the disguised inside ball. The Pumas were able to drift wide and then compete at the breakdown in numbers against feathers like NDL and Evans.

We should play the following side against England:

1.Jacobsen 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Kellock (c) 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Vernon 9.Blair 10.Jackson 11.Danielli 12.S Lamont 13.Ansbro 14.Evans 15.R Lamont

16.Cross 17.S Lawson 18.Hines 19.Barclay 20.R Lawson 21.CP 22.NDL

England just about beat Argentina with a dire performance, and Scotland just about lost to Argentina after a dire performance. Thats about it.

Argentina have the ability to to stop teams playing, England and Scotland games are always interesting and relatively close, so on neutral soil and with Scotland having a point to prove, its going to be a close game.

Scotland fans shouldnt give up hope just yet, everyone just saw Ireland throw off the shackles of a 2/3month international slump to outplay Australia.

It can be done, its why we love sport.

Max Evans was the ONLY one who looked creative...and actually made ground everytime he got the ball.
Put him at 12

Seriously though.....hasnt this always been a area of concern...aside from Scott Hastings.
There have been a lot of Kilted Kiwis in that 12 position.

Where is all the talent coming from the Borders? That was the hotbed of Scottish rugby...all those teak tough farmers etc...bring them back...

John Leslie was the last good 12 we had, and before that Scott Hastings. Since then it's been a horror show - Henderson, Dewey, Laney and Morrison.

There is optimism surrounding the current crop, and some talent there at 10 and 12, but other than maybe Weir, there's noone ready to enter the international arena yet.

This Scotland side is IMO better than the one of a few years ago (including the one in the 2007 WC). At the highest level, the back row is now good and the front 5 are competitive. There are several average-to-good scrum halves. It's after that that things get a bit shaky, with some players just not being of international standard. Robinson has put together a strategy to play to their strengths and I applaud him for that . Against the very best I think this team will always be found wanting, but against England who also have some real weaknesses in their 15, they are in with a chance. Play with passion, play to a gameplan, and hope for rain and a generous referee.

The overlying problem with the Scotland team is the 10 / 12 /13 creativity.

The pack are strong, the lineout is strong, the back row is strong....they are just missing a quality 10 or 12 who can really make things happen.

Hopefully this person is on his way up through the age grades....otherwise its going to be a wee while longer that thses threads come about.

Either that or godforbid you follow our way and bring in a load of foreign midfielders.....