Scotland put two fingers up at the IRB and Shingler trains with them despite him not being allowed to play for Scotland...!!!

A SRU spokesman has confirmed that Shingler has been participating in training.

"We have made no secret of the fact that Steven Shingler is part of our Six Nations squad and continues to be so," a SRU spokesman told the Scotsman. "The IRB ruled he cannot play or tour for Scotland and we have appealed that decision but what we have done is invite him to our training camp and he has taken up that offer.

"Steven Shingler has been in St Andrews to meet the Scotland squad. As he played on Sunday afternoon he follows the protocol of all players who were in match action which meant he did not train."

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/158141.html

Did the headline writer read this bit?

As he played on Sunday afternoon he follows the protocol of all players who were in match action which meant he did not train.

Ask ESPN?

maestegmafia wrote:Ask ESPN?

OK well when you wrote "Shingler trains with them" had you read the bit where it said he didnt train with them?

I know, its pedantic. The principles the same thing, they pending appeal are acting as if hes theirs.

Lord only know what LIrish think of this, puts them in a position doesnt it. Can they refuse to release him? I guess since is only an LV weekend its not worth the hassle.

Contradicting the Scottish Rugby Football Union spokesman who said that Shingler has been participating in training.

maestegmafia wrote:Contradicting the Scottish Rugby Football Union spokesman who said that Shingler has been participating in training.

No its the article writer who said that, the quote from the SRU chap quite specifically says he didnt train. Its just poor journalism.

He was at a Scotland training camp on Sunday.

But not training ......so he didnt train with Scotland.

"Steven Shingler ......did not train."

Yes he went to their camp, no he didnt train with them.

Sheesh. and yes I have already admitted this is pedantry!

Why on earth do you persist with pedantry...!

You always have to have the last word dont you.

He was up meeting the squad but was released back to his club on Monday evening. Nothing more than a hello and introduction to his potential team mates. What's wrong with that? I expect Visser will be taken on the Oz/Islands tour in the summer despite him not being qualified until after the Oz game.

Scot Abroad wrote:He was up meeting the squad but was released back to his club on Monday evening. Nothing more than a hello and introduction to his potential team mates. What's wrong with that? I expect Visser will be taken on the Oz/Islands tour in the summer despite him not being qualified until after the Oz game.

No problem with players meeting up with potential team mates if they are eligible to play for that team.
The IRB said Shingler is not eligible to play for Scotland,
SRU are being disrespectful towards the WRU by inviting a Welsh Qualified player to their training session. They should wait until the outcome of the appeal is released and if it's in Scotland's favour then invite him to meet his team mates..

maesteg, do you read these articles before you post them?

Also, I think your article headlines could be a bit snappier. It's a bit of a mouthful

Oh FFS - this is the same ridiculous attitude from the welsh that gave us a grand total of 867 posts on this one issue!

Honestly. Eight hundred and sixty seven.

Shingler's mother's Scottish, but AlynDavies seems to think that the WRU's marginal investment in him makes him Welsh. A lot of posters seem to think it's their place to dictate how Shingler should be feeling.

IanBru It does not matter what his mother's nationality is Shingler was born in Wales and is tied to Wales.
And no it's not our place to think how he is feeling but when the man himself has been on record several times informing us of his desire to play for Wales at the highest level then you can only blame him for misinforming us.
Blame him his agent or anybody else you want but trying to push the blame on Wales is unfair,

Why is it disrespectful to the WRU? They don't own the player. They can invite anyone they want. The only people it's disrespectful to is London Irish and they're taking a player away who may not be eligible. Since it's LV cup weekend we'll forgive them.

It's disrespectful because the IRB have said they do own the player at International level.
There is also a appeal going on at the moment.

They don't own the player. The IRB have said he can't play for Scotland. That doesn't mean the WRU own. Can they stop him being employed as a trainer for the SRU? No. Can they stop him assisting during training? No. Can they stop him contributing to developing plays, etc? No. The only thing they can do is stop him playing for them....and he hasn't.

If you feel it's right then that's perfectly fine but I think it's disrespectful.
I don't think he was invited there to be on their coaching staff but maybe you have access to privileged information.

Come on Thunor you have been around long enough to know what is right and wrong and while there is a dispute in progress both sides should have stayed well away from the lad.

No but his club could refuse to release him if he were not being called up as an official member of the playing squad.



What is going on here ( if you read the quote fully) is that the SRU, pending their appeal, have not accepted that the IRB judgement is final ( which it isnt, it can and is being appealed)

The only victim currently is his club, if the IRB upholds its initial judgement. If it overturns it then its just as well that the SRU kept including him otherwise both he and the player would be disadvantaged.

If the IRB uphold their decision on appeal, then noone except irish have lost out, as Wales have no intention of picking him.

Of course they could play hard ball here and add him to their squad...now that would be funny

Sorry. It's ok for me to have an opinion but if I don't agree with you then I don't the difference between right and wrong? How does that work?

Seabiscuit sums it up pretty well.

The Edinburgh game was on Sunday, I presume the players would ge the Monday off. All he did was spend his day off introducing himself to some great lads and having some good banter.

All I'm saying is that Scotland should have left the lad well alone pending the outcome of the appeal.
They are drawing unnecessary attention to the lad just to try and strengthen their own case, I'm surprised that LI even let him do this I thought it would be in their and the players interest to keep this at a low profile.

What annoys me is the media making this out to be YOUNG SCOTTISH PLAYER UNABLE TO PLAY FOR COUNTRY OF BIRTH BECAUSE OF FRIVOLOUS TIES TO WALES.
He was born here, played age grade rugby here, came through a Welsh regional academy and said on record a number of times how much he wanted to play for Wales!

You can't own a player Cymro. All he's done is shook a few hands and participated in a few training drills.

This is purely between the SRU and London Irish. The only thing he is prevented from doing is taking the field to represent another country. It's no business of the WRUs what else he does. They can't dictate what he does or where he goes.

Notch you know full well I did not literally mean own.

And you also know full well that it's much more than just going there for a chin wag. They are messing the lad about they should leave him well alone until further notice from the IRB.

Why? They haven't forced him to go up there. I doubt very much that him doing the meet and greet will effect the IRB in any way shape or form. Ask Nacewa.

So are you switching from 'disrespectful to the WRU' to 'unfair on the player'?

EDIT: BTW I was the one who said "own" first. Cymro was just responding to me I think

He was invited to play for Scotland. He accepted that invitation. The IRB made their ruling. He was invited to come up and meet some of the players as he is planning to appeal the decision and still wants to play for Scotland. And he accepted.

They're not messing him about. No-one is holding a gun to his head and making him pursue this line of action. It seems obvious that both the SRU and Shingler harbour ambitions of winning the appeal. But it's not like he doesn't have any agency in this. He's not some naive child, he can tell the SRU to get stuffed if he so desires. it's his decision to go up there.

Notch
It's obvious that the lad is confused it's only a few weeks back that he was on TV newspapers posters in Wales proclaiming his desire to play for Wales.
Nobody needs to hold a gun to his head it's plain to see how he is easily led and his actions would suggest he is naive.


Thunor what is up with you ? you know I'm not a wum so I'm not sure why you are having a go at me but I could be misunderstanding your actions.
You just seem to be picking out the odd word rather than read the full sentence.
Yes I do believe Scotland are being disrespectful while there is a appeal going on.

I think you're reading a lot into the situation that you want to see. He's a lad who is half-Welsh and half-Scottish. He's also more than old enough to make his own decisions.

I just don't understand what this has to do with the WRU. If they had called him up then I could kind of understand it but even then it's up to him if he wanted to go or not.

I really really don't understand how it's unfair on the player. The reason he's made the quick change is that he's full of Poopie (just like pretty much all players). He wanted to play for Wales but when he realised he was a fair way back he jumped at the chance Scotland gave him. Hardly unusual. Players generally say what they think they should say. It'll be interesting to see if Stephen Jones and Ben Morgan move from the Scarlets as both said they were staying (of course it was in their best interests at the time). Maybe I'm just cynical.

EDIT: For balance, Twelvetrees was keeping Leicester waiting while sorting out a contract with Gloucester for more money. If the deal with Gloucester fell through then he would resign for Leicester no worries.

Right we have established that he is old enough to make decisions so when he played for Wales U20s against France he was more than old enough to know what he was letting himself in for.
I can only see what I'm being shown and what I have seen is a lad who proclaimed his dream was to play for the country of birth yet a few weeks later was approached by Scotland and he jumped ship.

You know full well that if Wales had done this to a Scots player this forum would be playing blue murder that the WRU were out of order.

Did what? Select a player with some ambiguity about his qualification (less so since the two guys were cleared for Ireland)? Then when the IRB made a decision the other way and they were going to appeal, not drop kicking him to touch? It would have disrespectful to the player if they washed their hands of him.

There probably would be some people acting outraged. There always is regardless of how minor it is.

You cant compare Morgan and co with a player that's ineligible.
What has this to do with the WRU,, Well they invested time money and effort in Shingler's development and it stands to reason they are going to try and protect their assets.

So if they had selected him and he wasn't tied to the WRU it would still be disrespectful? What about Hugo Ellis going to Dragons with the aim of playing for Wales after the RFU input? It's not disrespectful. The RFU develop players in England. If they go to play for someone else then that's their decision and I wish them well.

I wasn't comparing the ineligible thing [Morgan]. It was about players saying what they think people want to hear.

Question Why did Scotland not make sure he was eligible to play for them ?
Why did they not ask the IRB before announcing that he was joining their squad.
Does that not strike you as being unprofessional or underhand even.

None of us including the WRU would have needed to known about this it could all have been done quietly and in a professional manner.
Shingler would have been protected from all the nonsense if Scotland had officially been told he was tied to Wales before making any disclosures.

If he was not tied to Wales then all would be fine nobody could do anything to stop him going.
It's not just about him it's to do with all dual nationality Welsh players we need to protect our investments.

Bloody hell, I go out for an hour and I come back to a philosophical discussion!

Cymroglan wrote:
Shingler would have been protected from all the nonsense if Scotland had officially been told he was tied to Wales before making any disclosures.

I'd argue that there's a difference between a player who is obviously tied to a country, and a player who an IRB board, after lengthy deliberation, decide is tied to a country, but which is still subject to appeal. Are the SRU going to shy away from introducing Shingler to the rest of the squad because the IRB appeal board may, in time, decide that he can't play for Scotland?

If the SRU had invited a player like Matthew Morgan (i.e. young, played for Wales U20, and obviously intending to play for Wales) to St Andrews, then I'd agree with you. It would be disrespectful and, frankly, pointless.

Instead they invited Shingler who has, admittedly, appeared in Welsh adverts, but who has been clear to the WRU in his determination not to be tied to Wales. Shingler has a Scottish mother. He is stating his current desire to play for Scotland. Are you really saying that the SRU are disrespectful for inviting a player to a training camp when he says he wants to play for Scotland? Really?

It's not like he's picking this allegiance out of thin air. He feels Scottish, and he wants to play for Scotland.

I feel partially Zimbabwean through my grandmother. Sure it's not my primary allegiance, but I feel more Zimbabwean than I feel English, despite being born south of London!

By the way, I feel bad that you've been tagged with the 'ownership' line - I think it was AlynDavies who (in another thread) started arguing that the WRU should have control of Shingler's movements because they happened to have invested a little bit of money in his rugby training. I think we're all rightfully wary of being in a situation where a private institution (such as the WRU) are able to dictate what an individual can do. I'm going to take my liberal activist hat off now...

Just out of interest, before he went up to the SRU training camp, had he really burnt all bridges with Wales? I had the feeling that if things had been left to settle and if the IRB didn't change their minds, then there was still a chance all of this could have been forgotten about and if he was good enough he could still have played for Wales someday.

However, the way things are now it seems to me he really has burnt his bridges with the WRU and the Welsh public and it is for this reason that I think the SRU should have let things settle down until the verdict on his eligibility.

And don't talk to me about LI, the one who really loses out in all of this is the man himself, unless of course the appeal is successful.

Unless of course I'm wrong about things possibly blowing over and him possibly being able to play for Wales someday. If I'm wrong about that then what he does or where he goes before the verdict is quite frankly irrelevant.

IanBru
Yes by all means invite him once they had found out he was eligible.
It seems they have only taken a players or agent word that he was eligible without checking first if he was or not.
The SRU have made life difficult for Shingler by announcing his inclusion in the Scottish squad before they checked if he is eligible.
I hope that they have not messed up his chances of one day playing for Wales because I cant see the IRB doing a u-turn on their decision,

Irishhoneymonster

No I don't think he had burnt his bridges but he is not helping his own cause either.
The thing is he could have five min on the field for Scotland and never used again just imagine how that would have made him feel.

Would you like to play for Wales ? I know i wouldn't. Would rather play for the forces of darkness - oh sheet i did not mean engerland. Would rather play for Wales than engerlund but sometimes it is close. Would rather play for Samoa or Fiji than either of them tbh.

Cymroglan wrote:Irishhoneymonster

No I don't think he had burnt his bridges but he is not helping his own cause either.
The thing is he could have five min on the field for Scotland and never used again just imagine how that would have made him feel.

Well it wouldn't make him feel bad if he truly wants to play for Scotland. I am not trying to suggest I know what he wants and I don't think anyone else should either!

The only point I was making was that if he hadn't burnt his bridges before going to the SRU training camp then the SRU should have had some maturity and let things sit until the verdict of the hearing.

That doesn't mean to say I feel the WRU have any rights to have him (I don't think they do really), is just to say that things should have been allowed to take their course without further interference. The way things are going now the only one who will potentially lose out is Shingler himself.

I agree he should have been left at arms length while the appeal is going on and I have said this on numerous posts.
But none of this needed to become public SRU could have approached the WRU and if there was no joy there they could then have asked the IRB to check his eligibility.

My guess is that the SRU knew there would be problems and they thought they could force the issue by making it public.

ianbru
you say "he feels scottish,and wants to play for scotland" well he felt welsh at least 14 times when he pulled on the red shirt and blasted out our national anthem? the only thing he feels is he has a better chance to play for scotland, he is well down the pecking order in wales,and he knew it. if the wru has it's paperwork in order,ie under 20 correctly registered as our second team,(howarth and sinkinson spring to mind) so dubious,then the irb are unlikely to change their initial ruling, as someone stated above,the sru should really have consulted the irb before naming him in their squad.

Maesteg
I dont understand the two fingers bit,did the IRB say that Shingler cant train with Scotland?

The only person to come out badly in all of this is Shingler himself. The people I feel sorry for are the players Shingler kept out of a Welsh U20 shirt.

IanBru wrote:Shingler's mother's Scottish, but AlynDavies seems to think that the WRU's marginal investment in him makes him Welsh. A lot of posters seem to think it's their place to dictate how Shingler should be feeling.

Hang on this is my first post on this topic and your ripping into me, before I have said anything!

But like I said before he accepted to go on 2 U20 World cups and play in 2 Wales U20 Six nations championships for us, and then suddenly Scotland come along when all the hard work is done and ask him to play for them.

Pathetic, in my view, but if Scotlands players aren't up to it, then by all means make the 4th choice Scarlets fly half an international rugby player...

I don't blame Shingler for getting caught up in this, I blame Derwyn Jones, he has always had an axe to grind with the WRU since they sacked him from his WRU contract and since them he has gone out on a limb to be as disruptive as possible within Welsh rugby.
He did the Loxton and Jarvis deal to Connacht and the Shingler one too.

I never heard why but how come Loxton and Jarvis were freed to represent Ireland?

HammerofThunor wrote:I never heard why but how come Loxton and Jarvis were freed to represent Ireland?

Because they werent told officially that playing for Wales U20 against France U20 in 2010, that they would become inelgibile for another country. The WRU only told Toby Faletau this as they didnt know about Loxtons or Jarvis duel eligibility.

So from 2010 the WRU tells anyone before a France U20 game they will be declaring for Wales only when they play against France U20's.

Shingler played in the 2011 Wales V France U20 game, knowing he'd be tied to Wales if he played, he knew this but declined to sign some kind of document which confirms he understand he can only play for Wales from this point onwards. that is why the argument has happened because Shingler thinks by not signing the document he didn't really tie himself to Wales, despite being told he would be if he played.